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willofDorne

High Sparrow = Howland Reed 4.0

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There aren't any rules I'm aware of for foreshadowing that state it's supposed to happen in the very next chapter. That would make this a straw man argument, as you are misconstruing the original argument point.

That aside, we've already put forth multiple times as well that Howland Reed could have taken to the Riverlands as early as the first GOT book after the Mountain does his raiding. He would simply need to provide relief and comfort to afflicted, if he's capable, or gather evidence agaisnt the Mountain and his men.

We can just look at the passage, chock full of shadows and symbolism

“I beg you in the name of the Mother,” Catelyn began when a sudden gust of wind flung open the door of the tent. She thought she glimpsed movement, but when she turned her head, it was only the king’s shadow shifting against the silken walls. She heard Renly begin a jest, his shadow moving, lifting its sword, black on green, candles guttering, shivering, something was queer, wrong, and then she saw Renly’s sword still in its scabbard, sheathed still, but the shadowsword"

....

“I beg you in the name of the Mother,” Catelyn began when a sudden gust of wind flung open the door of the tent. She thought she glimpsed movement, but when she turned her head, it was only the king’s shadow shifting against the silken walls. She heard Renly begin a jest, his shadow moving, lifting its sword, black on green, candles guttering, shivering, something was queer, wrong, and then she saw Renly’s sword still in its scabbard, sheathed still, but the shadowsword . . .

Renly tried to speak, but he was choking on his own blood. His legs collapsed, and only Brienne’s strength held him up. She threw back her head and screamed, wordless in her anguish. The shadow. Something dark and evil had happened here, she knew, something that she could not begin to understand. Renly never cast that shadow. Death came in that door and blew the life out of him as swift as the wind snuffed out his candles.

More shadows and casting in that passage than your entire chapter.

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We can just look at the passage, chock full of shadows and symbolism

“I beg you in the name of the Mother,” Catelyn began when a sudden gust of wind flung open the door of the tent. She thought she glimpsed movement, but when she turned her head, it was only the king’s shadow shifting against the silken walls. She heard Renly begin a jest, his shadow moving, lifting its sword, black on green, candles guttering, shivering, something was queer, wrong, and then she saw Renly’s sword still in its scabbard, sheathed still, but the shadowsword"

....

“I beg you in the name of the Mother,” Catelyn began when a sudden gust of wind flung open the door of the tent. She thought she glimpsed movement, but when she turned her head, it was only the king’s shadow shifting against the silken walls. She heard Renly begin a jest, his shadow moving, lifting its sword, black on green, candles guttering, shivering, something was queer, wrong, and then she saw Renly’s sword still in its scabbard, sheathed still, but the shadowsword . . .

Renly tried to speak, but he was choking on his own blood. His legs collapsed, and only Brienne’s strength held him up. She threw back her head and screamed, wordless in her anguish. The shadow. Something dark and evil had happened here, she knew, something that she could not begin to understand. Renly never cast that shadow. Death came in that door and blew the life out of him as swift as the wind snuffed out his candles.

More shadows and casting in that passage than your entire chapter.

So you're saying... you believe.. the shadows in Bran's chapter are eluding to this scene?

Maybe.

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So you're saying... you believe.. the shadows in Bran's chapter are eluding to this scene?

Maybe.

No. If you think I'm saying that you need to re-read everything I've posted or just sit down and take a deep breath. Gary's quote is irrelevant to your theory, and shadows are baseless in it as well.

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No. If you think I'm saying that you need to re-read everything I've posted or just sit down and take a deep breath. Gary's quote is irrelevant to your theory, and shadows are baseless in it as well.

So you want me to dismiss my own theory based on a theory you don't even believe in. :cheers:

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So you want me to dismiss my own theory based on a theory you don't even believe in. :cheers:

Seriously that passage eviscerates the shadow assertion completely

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- Where there's a Wells, there's a way

On Cersei’s second visit with the new High Septon, she is escorted into the Sept by a certain person of interest:

Theodan Wells, of House Wells, sworn to the North. Funny that a northman has risen to such a prominent position as captain of the Warrior's Sons.

None of this shows that Theodan is from the North. How do we know that he is from the Northern Wells and not the Dornish Wells?

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None of this shows that Theodan is from the North. How do we know that he is from the Northern Wells and not the Dornish Wells?

According to our source, ASOIAF wiki, he is from the North. The ASOIAF wiki is run by Westeros.org, who has been mentioned for being a big assist to the forthcoming book, "The World of Ice and Fire, An Untold History of Westeros."

edit: Hmmm.. there does seem to be a notation on the wiki site. It says that he is from the north by the ASOIAF "Campaign Guide."

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I was stunned that a v3 of this thread sprouted. As I said then the defense of this theory far exceeds the evidence. This should have been a (short) one thread discussion of "Nice idea but with such flimsy evidence it's very unlikely, Next!".

The Motives are weak. There are no hints to them at all in the books. Jon has not been approached and would likely not want the crown. If putting Jon on the throne was part of the plan then securing Jon would be the first step, not the last step.
Uniting the Faith to go help the heathen North fight against Snorks and Grumkins seems totally bizarre.
And simple revenge is even weaker as the only people resonsible for what is going on in the North left alive are Boltons and Freys. Cersei was such a minor part in the Wo5Ks and Red Wedding that this elaborate plan would be massive overkill.

As for the rest of the evidence, it is mostly Apophenia or "patternicity" which is "the tendency to find meaningful patterns in meaningless noise".
I saw a documentary once claiming that Washington D.C. had specific patterns due to the fact that many Founding Fathers were Masons. Some had pointed out that on a map of the city you could see shapes that resembled Set Squares, Compasses and other Mason tools and symbols. But opponents of this theory took a map of London, Paris and Toyko and were able to find similar patterns.
If you look for a pattern you will find one. This is even more likely here as all the descriptions are written by the same person. GRRM is describing thousands of things and people, of course he will use similar descriptions on several occassions as he doen't have infinite vocabulary.
When you look at the other examples of imagery used, they are generally much more specific. Like a blue rose growing on the wall of ice, Purple snakes in the girl's hair, three-eyed crows speaking to Bran.

There is so much going on up North that realistically Howland should be a part of. Restoring the Starks, taking revenge on the Boltons / Freys, preparing for the Wildlings and the Others.
Howland being in King's Landing meddling in Southron politics just makes so little sense. It would be like Xaro Xhoan Daxos turning up at the Wall to fight the Others.

I intend this to be my last post on the matter. I see little point continuing this discussion into thread v5 when the first thread should have wrapped this up. This is really just preaching to the choir, those that have drunken the HR=HS Kool Aid are not going to be convinced.

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I really enjoy this theory. I think the High Septon being Howland Reed is much better than introducing entirely new players half way through the series out of left field.

(f)Aegon was at least mentioned in the previous books before he seemingly pops out of nowhere and starts contending for the Iron Throne.

Aegon was way more out of left field than the High Sparrow. A belligerent religious reform movement was foreshadowed ever since the angry preachers in ACOK, and the theme of leaders in KL failing due to their own mistakes and poor judgement has defined KL politics since AGOT. Aegon, on the other hand, was universally believed to be dead, and almost nothing in the text gave readers a reason to believe otherwise.

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FAQS:

Q: Howland was confirmed by GRRM to be in his 30's, yet the High Septon has grey hair, a lined face, and is described as an "old man" both by Cersei and in the Appendix of AFoC and ADwD.

A: His beard is described as grizzled grey/brown, so not full grey. Crannogmen are small, and Cersei's interpretation is usually quite negative, so she may see him as a frail old man, when he's not. Also, people are known to age prematurely in ASOIAF for various reasons, and Howland has been practicing magic and participating in war, which may add years to a man's life. The age argument has been put forward again and again and answered, but some still persist.

Would you, please, find another person from Ned's generation, man or woman, being described as "old"? If not, then I do not consider this question answered.

Q: The timeline seems to not be enough for Howland to learn the Seven so well and then gain a following as he does.

A: If this bothers you, you may want to consider that it's possible Ned sent Howland on a recon and healing mission to the Riverlands, to discover the true nature of the Mountain's motives and actions.

Would you provide some support for that assumption? When Ned heard about the Mountain raping the Riverlands, he decided he knew enough already to pass a death sentence and send out executioners. We were inside his head then. At which point did he decide to commission any evidence gathering mission to the Riverlands, let alone pick Howland Reed, instead of any rivermen, for the task?

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I was stunned that a v3 of this thread sprouted. As I said then the defense of this theory far exceeds the evidence. This should have been a (short) one thread discussion of "Nice idea but with such flimsy evidence it's very unlikely, Next!".

This is indeed surprising. This one apparently has more vital powers than an average crackpot.

As for the rest of the evidence, it is mostly Apophenia or "patternicity" which is "the tendency to find meaningful patterns in meaningless noise".

I saw a documentary once claiming that Washington D.C. had specific patterns due to the fact that many Founding Fathers were Masons. Some had pointed out that on a map of the city you could see shapes that resembled Set Squares, Compasses and other Mason tools and symbols. But opponents of this theory took a map of London, Paris and Toyko and were able to find similar patterns.

And that worked as a counterargument? When a perfect rebuttal would be "But of course, Freemasons after all are everywhere and all-influential"?

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I was stunned that a v3 of this thread sprouted. As I said then the defense of this theory far exceeds the evidence. This should have been a (short) one thread discussion of "Nice idea but with such flimsy evidence it's very unlikely, Next!".

The Motives are weak. There are no hints to them at all in the books. Jon has not been approached and would likely not want the crown. If putting Jon on the throne was part of the plan then securing Jon would be the first step, not the last step.

Uniting the Faith to go help the heathen North fight against Snorks and Grumkins seems totally bizarre.

And simple revenge is even weaker as the only people resonsible for what is going on in the North left alive are Boltons and Freys. Cersei was such a minor part in the Wo5Ks and Red Wedding that this elaborate plan would be massive overkill.

You're entitled to your opinion. I think the motives are more of a big picture thing, because obviously he has commands to go to the Riverlands before he has motivation to stay there. Maybe I'm asking for too much creative and imaginative thinking, but I don't think so. I did mention several times in the theory why he'd be in the Riverlands outside the motivations. So, I can't hand hold every doubt.

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Would you, please, find another person from Ned's generation, man or woman, being described as "old"? If not, then I do not consider this question answered.

Would you provide some support for that assumption? When Ned heard about the Mountain raping the Riverlands, he decided he knew enough already to pass a death sentence and send out executioners. We were inside his head then. At which point did he decide to commission any evidence gathering mission to the Riverlands, let alone pick Howland Reed, instead of any rivermen, for the task?

Just because you're in someone's head, doesn't mean you are privy to every thought they are having. Read some detective fiction.

Also, this: http://imgur.com/L2BQYXt from the Littlefinger is Sherlock Holmes thread.

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Great work again, willofDorne.



I'll watch with interest for any new material. :)

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Just because you're in someone's head, doesn't mean you are privy to every thought they are having. Read some detective fiction.

Maybe I will. Right now, though, we're discussing "A Song of Ice and Fire". Ned's narrative through his tenure as Hand was pretty straightforward, and you're saying he's been hiding his important decisions and actions from us? Surely you can provide some other, verified examples of those, as well? Or are you backing your unfounded, unproven claims with further unfounded claims?

It would be bad storytelling, by the way. The author easily could have made some cryptic mention in AGOT of Ned sending a message to Howland Reed, innocent at the first read, to become a Chekhov's gun in the latter books. In contrast, "Ned had contacted Howland Reed from King's Landing, but I hid any trace of it" turns the entire affair into a clumsy ass-pull.

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you're saying he's been hiding his important decisions and actions from us? Surely you can provide some other, verified examples of those, as well? Or are you backing your unfounded, unproven claims with further unfounded claims?

It would be bad storytelling, by the way. The author easily could have made some cryptic mention in AGOT of Ned sending a message to Howland Reed, innocent at the first read, to become a Chekhov's gun in the latter books. In contrast, "Ned had contacted Howland Reed from King's Landing, but I hid any trace of it" turns the entire affair into a clumsy ass-pull.

Mayhaps, he did:

“Would you at least consent to carry a message out for me?”

“That would depend on the message. I will gladly provide you with paper and ink, if you like. And when you have written what you will, I will take the letter and read it, and deliver it or not, as best serves my own ends.”

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Mayhaps, he did:

And that's what was in Ned's mind in his last days? Charging Howland Reed to investigate Gregor Clegane's activities in the Riverlands? If that's so, he masked it very well indeed.

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Great quote Ser Quark


“Would you at least consent to carry a message out for me?”

“That would depend on the message. I will gladly provide you with paper and ink, if you like. And when you have written what you will, I will take the letter and read it, and deliver it or not, as best serves my own ends.”

Very interesting... I don't even need to read that chapter (or Reed?) to know there is undoubtedly also some connection to Howland in the chapter. But I'll do it anyways... because why not.

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Great quote Ser Quark

Very interesting... I don't even need to read that chapter (or Reed?) to know there is undoubtedly also some connection to Howland in the chapter. But I'll do it anyways... because why not.

I think there are a number of connections.

This is Eddard's last chapter. He is delirious and starved. Early in the chapter, there's this.

He did not know which was more painful, the waking or the sleeping. When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises.

He has many different dreams/thoughts before we come to his dreams of the tourney at Harrenhal (note: where the story of the KofLT takes place - a connection to Howland).

The memory came creeping upon him in the darkness, as vivid as a dream. It was the year of false spring, and he was eighteen again, down from the Eyrie to the tourney at Harrenhal.

[...]

Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses.

There is the lapse of of (I believe) some days before Varys arrives. This whole chapter repays careful reading, but in short between the one quote above and the one following is the quote about Ned wanting to send a message. Then Varys suggests Ned take the black.

"[...] If you will give her the peace she needs and the time to deal with Stannis, and pledge to carry her secret to your grave, I believe she will allow you to take the black and live out the rest of your days on the Wall, with your brother and that baseborn son of yours.”

The thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, and a sorrow too deep for words . If only he could see the boy again, sit and talk with him … pain shot through his broken leg, beneath the filthy grey plaster of his cast. He winced [...]

The promise to Lyanna is playing on Ned's mind. Is that one of the broken promises? Had he promised to Lyanna he would tell Jon the truth some day? Did he promise more than just protecting Jon? I don't know, but his promise to Lyanna and talking to Jon are on Ned's mind, and who else knows about Jon now other than Howland Reed, also at Harrenhal?

The message could be for any number of people, but it's certainly possible it could be for Howland.

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