Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

willofDorne

High Sparrow = Howland Reed 4.0

110 posts in this topic

WeaselPie - sorry, my response to your post didn't post. I was agreeing with you! :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd sooner believe that the High Sparrow is Aeron Greyjoy, which I think is almost impossible, just by taking the characters worldwiev into consideration as far as it transpired in the books.



I see the HS as Martin's version of an armed ( thanks to Cersei's blunder ) Savonarola.



the Florentines embraced Savonarola’s campaign to rid the city of "vice". At his repeated insistence, new laws were passed against "sodomy" (which included male and female same-sex relations), adultery, public drunkenness, and other moral transgressions, while his lieutenant fra Silvestro Maruffi organized boys and young men to patrol the streets to curb immodest dress and behavior.


I don't think that Howland Reed cares about these moral transgressions. Howland will certainly care about the plight of the smallfolk, but he would rather support people like Septon Meribald and the Elder Brother. I think Howland Reed being involved in a movement similar to Thomas Müntzer's Peasant's War is possible, but I think that would be rather supportive in nature, providing refuge and such.



The differences seem very little, as Thomas Mützer was basing his movement on Martin Luther's new teachings and Luther admired Savonarola.



In my view it's unlikely that Howland Reed has the rightousness of the High Sparrow or Savonarola nor the conviction of rightness that would enable him to lead a smallfolk rebellion. I think he is feeling a duty towards his people and his liege lord - Ned's heir, but mostly to the old gods.



The old gods don't seem to stand for dividing the world into black and white as the High Sparrow seems to do and I don't think his moral rightousness is just an act to get rid of Cersei, I had the impression that is his genuine believe.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

time to bring this up again








I admit that I didn't watch the video until just now. It surprises me that you posted it in an effort to have this theory "officially" recognized. It does present a watered down version. In the FIRST HALF of the video. It then goes on to succinctly lay out many reasons why the theory is reaching and off the mark with the final conclusion that HR =/= HS.






just saw this video and it seems to made by someone like antlers fury who simply doesn't want it to become true and therefore simply ignores or twists all the arguments made for it. come on, the video producer is obviously biased. he doesn't even try to explain the complete theory, leaves out the most important hints and his arguments against the theory have been dismissed in the first thread months earlier. some of his arguments couldn't even be made by someone who has read the full version of the theory.



however, given the last tv-episode i think it has become even more likely that HR is HS. what i exactly mean is the dialogue between olenna and the HS. she calls him a fraud right from the beginning, but can't figure out his motives (which is logical as she doesn't know who he really is). i simply don't see any reason of bringing this up if there was nothing to it. additionally show-HS is portrayed in a way that really makes one think that there is more under the surface. the way he talks to olenna makes it hard to believe he actually is a poor septon and he simply is too good at political maneuvering. also his strategy is to sophisticated and planned for a religious zealot: accusing loras simply to make margaery lie, so she can be trialed too and doing all this only to set a precedent for cerseis imprisonment. of course show is show and so on, but if HR=HS is true than it will most likely a very important plot that cannot be changed completly and the show has to make things more obvious for non-readers to follow.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But off topic

Something that just stuck out to me.. When he

Said that the night soil will wash away easier than the blood shed there..... Is he actualy referring to the time Jamie slept with her during the vigil ?

The scene from what I remember she was bleeding at the time from Jamie's vivid descriptions.

We assume he is talking about Ned's beheading but it could mean he knows about her children....

Can't wash that away to easily ? Could also mean Ned and he is referring to a bunch of acts ,...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I completely sign in for this theory. I believe Howland Reed being High Septon makes perfect sense and makes Lannisters paying the price for Ned Stark's execution all more satisfying.



I never noticed these septa similarities with she-bears,and it just solidifies for me that those are Maege and her daughters Lyra and Jorelle. Great job!



In my view,Howland Reed is the only guy who knows R+L=J, his son is a greenseer and he is connected to Green Men,therefore for me it automatically means connection to Bloodraven, who I believe wants the balance of ice and fire. Therefore, Howland has some knowledge about Jon's importance and would want to avenge Ned Stark in some fashion as well. Plus, with foreshadowed burning of King's Landing thanks to Cersei, and Bonifer Hasty and his Holy Hundred fortifying themselves in the name of the Faith in Harrenhal, I could see High Septon and devastated population of King's Landing moving to Harrenhal and establishing new capital there.



I am really curious about High Septon's storyline once fAegon comes into play. If he is indeed Howland Reed,would he still support this Blackfyre?



I believe Howland Reed being High Septon is a perfect tool for small folk to accept Jon as their new king and fully support him,especially after wars tore country apart and inevitable arrival of winter. Most of the masses are uneducated and driven mainly by religion and will be very desperate for some kind of prophetic figure who could show them some hope,so if this beloved High Septon proclaims Jon to be the legitimate king and son of Rhaegar who most of small folk still remember with admiration and crowns him in Harrenhal (with Jaime Lannister in possession of the crown of Robb Stark after his dealings with BwB and Lady Stoneheart and playing the role of Kingmaker aka Criston Cole).



I also believe that Sansa's connection to Harrenhal will have something to do with the events as well. When she acquires Littlefinger's wealth as his legitimate daughter via Alayne Baelish (she needs to be legitimized first to be good enough math for Harry Hardying), I believe she will spend most of LF's fortunes to feed the starving small folk in the winter and rebuild Harrenhal to suit masses of people. His money needs to be spent somehow. Therefore,Sansa will be reincarnation of Mother and be loved by thousands of people. Another good PR for Jon's case,as his sister (cousin) is the Mother.



Of course,I might be wrong about half of these,but again,I strongly agree that High Sparrow is Howland Reed,makes a lot of sense. Textual evidence you provided can't be ignored. Kudos!


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While I respect all the research and dedication to this theory I just don't see it as feasible. Makes far more sense to be some hidden survivor of House Darry than HR and the northmen. There's plenty of conspiracies in the North that make more sense for them to be assisting with.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While I respect all the research and dedication to this theory I just don't see it as feasible. Makes far more sense to be some hidden survivor of House Darry than HR and the northmen. There's plenty of conspiracies in the North that make more sense for them to be assisting with.

1. what "makes more sense" (to us) isn't the main motivation of characters

2. he may not know about northern conspiracies. as far as we know no northerners went to meet him since the RW and they wouldn't send letters (either because ravens can't find greywater watch or because the risk of being exposed is to high)

3. if he wants revenge for the starks it actually makes more sense to attack the lannisters than the boltons (without southern backing the boltons are unlikely to stay in power)

4. fighting the boltons in the north doesn't make that much sense. the crannogmen learned to fight in the swamps, not in the north during snowstorms. they would be of limited use there, clearly not a game changer

5. his plan most likely was developed before any northern conspiracies started

6. his current success speaks for himself, he has already done damage to the lannisters

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kudos WilloDorne. I'm a supporter of the theory but haven't posted on the topic since v2. Tbh, I got sick of the circular nature of the argument but I see you are made of sterner stuff.

It is just a theory, based on what are perceived by some as a few subtle hints and a proposed narrative value. It is impossible to prove because there is no proof. If it is true then we should expect it to be concealed, the writer is trying to surprise the reader, that's what writers do. The degree of concealment varies depending on the size of the pay off intended. The bigger the pay off, the greater the degree of concealment. However, giving no clues whatsoever is generally considered bad writing. So at best we have what are perceived as a few subtle hints.

In the absence of proof we might test our hypothesis by way of elimination. Is there any piece of information that can absolutely rule out the possibility? If there is I have yet to see it. Age and religion feature prominently in the list of objections. I gave my reply to the objections repeatedly in the first two threads so I won't bother going through it all again. But in my opinion, and I accept I might be wrong, we could be looking at an endgame thread that weaves together R+L=J, TPwwP, the Long Night, the Others, the CotF, the Sacred Order of the Greenmen, Bran and BR, and the unity of people from different political and religious backgrounds, and probably a bit more. It's just my guess based on a few faint clues and my expectation of GRRM to tie it all up in some spectacular fashion. I'm sure that will be the case, regardless of the theory being true or not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

time to bring this up again

just saw this video and it seems to made by someone like antlers fury who simply doesn't want it to become true and therefore simply ignores or twists all the arguments made for it. come on, the video producer is obviously biased. he doesn't even try to explain the complete theory, leaves out the most important hints and his arguments against the theory have been dismissed in the first thread months earlier. some of his arguments couldn't even be made by someone who has read the full version of the theory.

however, given the last tv-episode [snip...]

Exactly. The video does not support the HS = HR theory. But willofDorne dropped it into this thread and called attention to it saying that it should somehow make the theory official (and presumably less crackpot). The video does not accomplish that.

As to the HBO version, I haven't seen it and I consider it a separate universe.

Well, it looks like we've gotten more Howland Reed = High Septon supporters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOD7O7migDw

Doesn't this make it an official theory??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just a few comments, love the theory regardless of its validity.

Jojen's eyes only become green, they presumably didn't start that way.

I always asked myself why Ned didn't stop in and see his boy Reed when he went south. Besides the fact that grrm is holding him back as the one who can answer questions about the ToJ.

This would be explained by the H+A=M+J theory since Ned wouldn't want king and company anywhere near those secrets. Or perhaps it is so nobody will recognize Howland, readers included.

Finally, for now sorry on my phone, if you can believe Howland was pretending to be a knight (TKotLT) isn't that a great lead into pretending to be a septon? After that it's only a hop skip and a band of well armed fanatics to become high septon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites