Do you forgive Sansa for judging Tyrion so harshly?

[WilliamWesterosiWallace]

Ok, the title says too little. My point here is:

After watching this scene (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hISsfpMrwso&channel=UCi4KFDhzQ7d6J2oRowJLm0A) from the Game of Thrones series, Season 2, I thought back on the way Sansa treated Tyrion on their wedding night.

“You did not ask for this marriage, I know. No more than I did. If I had refused you, however, they would have wed you to my cousin Lancel. Perhaps you would prefer that. He is nearer your age, and fairer to look upon. If that is your wish, say so, and I will end this farce.”

Here, Tyrion offers her Lancel(not a bad choice as Lannisters go, since even Cersei wanted a bit of him; but, if we're talking of personalities, he really is a bad choice.)

He studied her with his mismatched eyes. “I know I am not the sort of husband young girls dream of, Sansa,” he said softly, “but neither am I Joffrey.” “No,” she said. “You were kind to me. I remember."

She even says, I remember. Why so much hate towards Tyrion, then?

Before I'm made to hear the same argument a hundred times, I'll state it here, already: Sansa has the right to hate every single Lannister in the earth, and, if the Seven were Lannisters, Sansa would be an atheist. But, my point here isn't about all the Lannisters that Sansa can, should and does hate(Joffrey, Cersei, Tywin to some extent, Lancel too perhaps) but about the one single Lannister who is trying to be nice to her. I get that she hates Tyrion; I just want to know why she hates him as much as she hates Joffrey.

She felt another tug at her skirt, more insistent. I won’t. Why should I spare his feelings, when no one cares about mine? The dwarf tugged at her a third time. Stubbornly she pressed her lips together and pretended not to notice. Someone behind them tittered. The queen, she thought, but it didn’t matter. They were all laughing by then, Joffrey the loudest. “Dontos, down on your hands and knees,” the king commanded. “My uncle needs a boost to climb his bride.”

I get that she's a thirteen year old, and made to forget her "stupid" dreams of marrying a tall, handsome lord. But that line speaks too much for both sides. She is being humiliated by her enemies, and Tyrion is being scolded by his own family. Being loved as the pretty little daughter since she could remember, Sansa probably doesn't know how it feels to be mocked by her own family. Look at Arya's feelings towards Sansa, her childhood bully(of sorts); she has to convince herself that she would want to save Sansa too.

When Sansa turned, the little man was gazing up at her, his mouth tight, his face as red as her cloak. Suddenly she was ashamed of her stubbornness.

Tyrion was, once again, humiliated in front of everyone, and by the one person he thought would be his partner in the fight against the "bad" Lannisters.

When the musicians began to play, she timidly laid her hand on Tyrion’s and said, “My lord, should we lead the dance?” His mouth twisted. “I think we have already given them sufficent amusement for one day, don’t you?”

“As you say, my lord.” She pulled her hand back.

Again, Sansa is not wrong to have the dreams every little girl had: Marriage, a tall handsome lord, a beautiful dance. But to ask Tyrion to dance, in front of who was there, after she had made the biggest(smallest) fool of him, was at the very best a slap in Tyrion's face. His answer is poisonous, but her question, even if unintentionally, was more.

Perhaps she ought to have remained beside her husband, but she wanted to dance so badly... and Ser Garlan was brother to Margaery, to Willas, to her Knight of Flowers.

Another unintentional example of salt in Tyrion's wounds. Unintentional, but still.

Her relief was short-lived. No sooner had the music died than she heard Joffrey say, “It’s time to bed them! Let’s get the clothes off her, and have a look at what the she-wolf’s got to give my uncle!” Other men took up the cry, loudly. Her dwarf husband lifted his eyes slowly from his wine cup. “I’ll have no bedding.” Joffrey seized Sansa’s arm. “You will if I command it.” The Imp slammed his dagger down in the table, where it stood quivering. “Then you’ll service your own bride with a wooden prick. I’ll geld you, I swear it.” A shocked silence fell. Sansa pulled away from Joffrey, but he had a grip on her, and her sleeve ripped. No one even seemed to hear. Queen Cersei turned to her father. “Did you hear him?” Lord Tywin rose from his seat. “I believe we can dispense with the bedding. Tyrion, I am certain you did not mean to threaten the king’s royal person.” Sansa saw a spasm of rage pass across her husband’s face. “I misspoke,” he said. “It was a bad jape, sire.” “You threatened to geld me!” Joffrey said shrilly. “I did, Your Grace,” said Tyrion, “but only because I envied your royal manhood. Mine own is so small and stunted.” His face twisted into a leer. “And if you take my tongue, you will leave me no way at all to pleasure this sweet wife you gave me.”

I question: How can Sansa not at least be a little less angry at Tyrion after this? He just saved her of the great experience that must be having Joffrey's fingers up your "privates". If you think I'm overseeing the other guests that would be there undressing Sansa, tell me, who would stop Joffrey from touching Sansa however and wherever he pleased?

Not saying Joffrey would rape her, but the only reason he wouldn't rape her is because his pr*ck is between his legs and not between his fingers.

Then, at the bedroom:

“Don’t lie, Sansa. I am malformed, scarred, and small, but...” she could see him groping “... abed, when the candles are blown out, I am made no worse than other men. In the dark, I am the Knight of Flowers.” He took a draught of wine. “I am generous. Loyal to those who are loyal to me. I’ve proven I’m no craven. And I am cleverer than most, surely wits count for something. I can even be kind. Kindness is not a habit with us Lannisters, I fear, but I know I have some somewhere. I could be... I could be good to you.” He is as frightened as I am, Sansa realized. Perhaps that should have made her feel more kindly toward him, but it did not. All she felt was pity, and pity was death to desire. He was looking at her, waiting for her to say something, but all her words had withered. She could only stand there trembling. When he finally realized that she had no answer for him, Tyrion Lannister drained the last of his wine. “I understand,” he said bitterly. “Get in the bed, Sansa. We need to do our duty.”

“My lady,” Tyrion said, “you are lovely, make no mistake, but... I cannot do this. My father be damned. We will wait. The turn of a moon, a year, a season, however long it takes. Until you

have come to know me better, and perhaps to trust me a little.” His smile might have been meant to be reassuring, but without a nose it only made him look more grotesque and sinister.

How can she not look at him at least a little bit more tenderly after this?

“On my honor as a Lannister,” the Imp said, “I will not touch you until you want me to.” It took all the courage that was in her to look in those mismatched eyes and say, “And if I never want you to, my lord?” His mouth jerked as if she had slapped him. “Never?” Her neck was so tight she could scarcely nod. “Why,” he said, “that is why the gods made whores for imps like me.” He closed his short blunt fingers into a fist, and climbed down off the bed.

We saw this marriage from Sansa's eyes, and it has made everyone so overwhelmingly pitied towards her. If we saw this through Tyrion, we'd cry more in this chapter than in the RW one. Seriously.

So, to finish:

First of all, the title of this thread isn't the best one;

Second, I think Sansa is 100% right to hate every man with a Lannister in the end of his name;

which doesn't give her the right to hate a Lannister that has proven, more than once, that he wants the best for her. Look at the last qoute, and you'll see that Tyrion is anything but the Lannister Sansa imagines;

Third, I understand why Sansa doesn't like him, and it is here I ask you:

Will you, reader, forgive Sansa if she ever meets Tyrion again, and rejects him again, after all that she has been through? (Please, do not bring ADWD Tyrion here; I know he is becoming a monster. My question is aimed towards Sansa's thoughts, not Tyrion's.)

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

Yeah.

Even Tyrion doesn't take it all that personally.

[OldGimletEye]

No I won't forgive Sansa with regard to Tyrion. And here is the reason: There is really nothing to forgive. Sansa didn't do anything wrong.

[Chebyshov]

No I won't forgive Sansa with regard to Tyrion. And here is the reason: There is really nothing to forgive. Sansa didn't do anything wrong.

Boom. In fact she's far, far kinder to Tyrion than he deserves.

Also, love that her asking him to dance and him saying no is rudeness on her part in this analysis.

[TrueOrFalse]

Yeah, I don't really think there's anything to forgive to be honest.

[WilliamWesterosiWallace]

Boom. In fact she's far, far kinder to Tyrion than he deserves.

Also, love that her asking him to dance and him saying no is rudeness on her part in this analysis.

Didn't mean that, and if it looks like I did, I'm sorry.

What I meant is that Sansa asking him to dance was unintentionally rude, while Tyrion was intentionally rude in his answer.

And why do you say she is "kinder than Tyrion deserves"? What has he done to her? I remember him saving her from Meryn Trant, but I don't remember him being mean towards her.

[aryagonnakill#2]

I always felt bad for Tyrion in there, and it added to my dislike of Sansa. Actually, now that you reminded I seem to be loosing some of the positive feelings for Sansa I had gained in AFFC.

[dread pirate davos]

Can't say I ever felt The need to forgive her. Just because he's nicer than his family doesn't mean sansa should want to be his wife or even like him.

[Bustard]

I don't judge her too harshly for it, but this is one reason I never fell in love with Sansa. I gravitate towards characters that can see beyond their own shit storm and empathize with others.

[WilliamWesterosiWallace]

Yeah.

Even Tyrion doesn't take it all that personally.

I guess he does, especially the bedding part.

His mouth jerked as if she had slapped him. “Never?”

I remember a thread where the OP said that all Tyrion wanted, all this time, was recognition, and when Ser Garlan complimented him on his Blackwater actions, he was overwhelmingly pleased. So I guess that he really expected Sansa to be at least kind to him, like, for example, Ser Garlan was. Complimenting him on what he has of good, you know?

“I am generous. Loyal to those who are loyal to me. I’ve proven I’m no craven. And I am cleverer than most, surely wits count for something. I can even be kind."

[monika]

Sansa had just learned her brother and mother had been killed, and she was the puppet of the people who murdered them.

Tyrion was the best of a bad lot, but accepting the marriage meant resigning herself to her fate. No more House Stark. Joffery and Cersei win.

She felt bad about refusing to kneel since it was nothing personal.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

No I won't forgive Sansa with regard to Tyrion. And here is the reason: There is really nothing to forgive. Sansa didn't do anything wrong.

This.

[WilliamWesterosiWallace]

Can't say I ever felt The need to forgive her. Just because he's nicer than his family doesn't mean sansa should want to be his wife or even like him.

I understand that she doesn't have to love him, and I completely agree with her sexual rejection towards him. I mean, men can choose who they want to bed, why can't women? My point is, she is excessively rude to him, like she'd be with Joffrey. She could have been friendly towards him, at least, but she kept her armor on.

[aryagonnakill#2]

^ That's the way I feel about it, there was no need to keep being excessively rude, like what could possibly be the need to throw in "your so ugly I'm never going to want to have sex with u" That's just not necessary.

[Ser Eric]

I applaud Tyrion for doing the right thing i.e not bedding Sansa. He doesn't get enough credit for that.

Sansa, I don't blame her.

[Mladen]

I adore these thread... Especially the implied "she should have widened her legs and allowed him to rape her"... Never grows old.

Simply, why should she be any better to him? Not to mention that Sansa hasn't been rude to Tyrion AT ANY GIVEN POINT, other than expressing her rejection at the wedding in rather Northern kind a way - not kneeling. Let we forget that Tyrion won a lottery with the Sansa, that he did have a choice not to marry her (otherwise the whole Lancel offer is one huge BS hypocrisy). When she saw how humiliated Tyrion is, she kneeled and kissed him, and that is much more than he deserved.

I understand that she doesn't have to love him, and I completely agree with her sexual rejection towards him. I mean, men can choose who they want to bed, why can't women? My point is, she is excessively rude to him, like she'd be with Joffrey. She could have been friendly towards him, at least, but she kept her armor on.

When was she extensively rude to him? When she was forced to marry him, when she was facing a rape or when she was mourning her family who was slaughtered by Tyrion's family? And again, what is the case for her being so rude? When did this even happen?

[Alayne's Shadow.]

I don't judge her too harshly for it, but this is one reason I never fell in love with Sansa. I gravitate towards characters that can see beyond their own shit storm and empathize with others.

I think Sansa does empathize with Tyrion, but their situation is not alike at all, and nor should ever be put as such. Tyrion marries a beautiful wife and his children might rule the North. Sansa marries the "Best" of the members of the family that actively fought her own family, damned her to pretty much Hell, beat her, humiliated her, amongst others. Tyrion himself works for House Lannister, as he had before in the books. It's at least naive to trust Tyrion at that point, and since Sansa isn't naive anymore, she doesn't. Cersei and Joffrey were nice, once.

[Ingelheim]

There's nothing to forgive.

[Chebyshov]

And why do you say she is "kinder than Tyrion deserves"? What has he done to her? I remember him saving her from Meryn Trant, but I don't remember him being mean towards her.

Ha, that's just my own bias there. From her point of view, he's relatively kind. From what we know based on his thoughts during their marriage, he is entitled, voyeuristic, and insensitive with regards to her.

That's just my reading of it though. I'll link Lyanna Stark's excellent 3-part analysis (1, 2, 3) on their relationship/dynamic (part 3 is particularly relevant) along with this analysis of a chapter where Tyrion is reflecting on Sansa and his marriage for a good bit of it. It's not my exact viewpoint, but this sort of explains where I'm coming from.

[Sweetgirl205]

Sansa has earned the right to hate the Lannisters, even ones who are nice to her. Actually, I don't think she really hates Tyrion. It is more that she is highly distrustful of him. Remember, Cersie and Joeffry were nice to her once. She sacraficed her family because she believed their kindness was real. When Tyrion is nice to her, Sansa is wondering what he wants. She cannot believe him because she has been hurt beyond repair.

On a side note, Litttlefinger shouldn't trust Sansa. She will turn on him like a rabid dog eventually.