Non-Monogamy

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

My first thoughts on waking this morning was that I was going to post in the Dating thread to thank Chats, Xray and others for their posts on this topic. Xray especially say expresses how I feel about. While I am in a monogamous relationship, it never feels complete. Like I have to subjugate a big part of myself.

<snip> awesomeness

Thank you for this. Very well said and thought out. I really like the break down of the different types of poly-relationships

This poly business sounds far too complicated and unwieldly for my liking.

But the biggest dealbreaker for me is that I just don't think it would be possible for me to be in love with more than one person simultaneously. It sounds like an oxymoron to me.

And I wouldn't be able to shake feelings of guilt if I slept with somebody else, even if she said she was okay with it. Lust is one thing but personally for me, if I were in a serious relationship, then sex is about more than just gratification, its also a bonding experience, you feel closer to her afterwards.

A person can love all their children, their parents, friends, others, so why not love more than one partner?

While I love my children equally, I love different things about them, and different things make them each very special to me.

I don't believe (and it has never been my experience) that one person can fulfill all of the emotional and physical needs of another person.

To expand a bit: I don't see sexual orientation as simply "to whom are you attracted" but also "how do you best express your sexual nature." For some, that a monogamous homosexual pairing. For others, it's a poly heterosexual structure. And so on.

And I should be clear -- I have no problems with those who choose monogamy. That's as valid a choice as any other ethical choice, and I celebrate it.

Thanks again for putting this into words

feeling bad for attorneys is a symptom of a moral decay in society that all the drug and sex fueled hedonism could never touch. ;)

:lmao: I thought the same

To answer the bold: absolutely not. Almost everyone on the planet, at one time or another, has been attracted (sexually, emotionally) to someone who is not their primary monogamous partner. That's just human nature. I am not crazy about the "preference" label, because that suggests that this is not a fundamental part of one's sexual matrix. It's like saying gay dudes "prefer" to sleep with other men. I mean, yes, but "prefer" suggests they have an alternative out there that will make them equally happy, and that is not the case for most gay men.

What I mean by saying that non-monogamy is an essential part of my sexual matrix: I do not feel like my entire essential self, the very basic building blocks of my self-identity and existence, is being addressed in a monogamous situation. For the monogamous person, it would be akin to enforced celibacy. You've cut off access to a very basic part of yourself to meet the external requirement (in your case, celibacy; in mine, monogamy).

Choice comes in when monogamy is the best choice for the pair. Terra covers this well when he describes how he and Mr. T decided to be monogamous for the first decade+ of their relationship, because they were not yet ready to deal with the ramifications of a non-monogamous relationship. (BTW, Terra, hats off to you on that. Let's just say I know exactly what you're talking about here.) They are currently happier with non-monogamy (and it seems to be an essential aspect to each of their sexual matrices), but they chose to be monogamous for a time for the greater good of the relationship. I have done the same.

Again, I feel like this was taken straight from my head.

That was in regards to someone's private romantic and sexual life.

But if you bring children into such an arrangement and I think that would be bad for the child, I can't see why I can't express that opinion.

[Balefont]

My first thoughts on waking this morning was that I was going to post in the Dating thread to thank Chats, Xray and others for their posts on this topic. Xray especially say expresses how I feel about. While I am in a monogamous relationship, it never feels complete. Like I have to subjugate a big part of myself.

Indeed. But it is far too late for me to change things as there was never any discussion my relationship would be anything but monogamous because society and ingrained expectations. Not to mention, I have a partner that needs a lot of me often so there is not really much time for anyone else. ;)

(And I'm at a point in my life where less complicated human interractions or just less physical human interraction is actually more appealling to me than anything. People are exhausting!)

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

Practically speaking if non-monagamy and polyamory become generally accepted and legally recognized I feel really bad for family court judges and attornies. It's difficult now with only monogamus pair bonds legally recognized.

:)

What is wrong with you!? The more complicated the facts and the law, the greater the need for attorneys and the longer it will take for us to resolve it - and consequently, the larger our fees.

Feel bad ?! Just the opposite!

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

Indeed. But it is far too late for me to change things as there was never any discussion my relationship would be anything but monogamous because society and ingrained expectations. Not to mention, I have a partner that needs a lot of me often so there is not really much time for anyone else. ;)

(And I'm at a point in my life where less complicated human interractions or just less physical human interraction is actually more appealling to me than anything. People are exhausting!)

Very much the same here too, but it is nice to see it expressed openly like this. I always felt like I was a freak or defective for wanting "more"

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

I think that although in terms of morality, it should be fine to raise a child to parents who are polyamorous, practically speaking unfortunately I think those children would be subject to a lot of unfounded negativity in the same way that children of same-sex parents can be

Which is sad. I guess you have to make the decision between reacting to the world as it should be, or reacting to the world as it is. The former will make the world a better place, the latter will make your life easier.

Given the different types of polyamorous relationships that exist, I suspect this would only be an issue for the subset of polyamorous relationships where the dyanmic is skewed heavily towards long-term emotional polyamorous relationships. Which is to say, your kids, and your kids friends and families, don't have to know everyone you're fucking, and don't have to know everyone you have an emotional/romantic relationship with, especially if it's clearly secondary to your primary relationship.

That being said, it could very well be a challenge for those polyamorous relationships where multiple partners are living under the same roof. But the situation is never going to get better unless the people in these relationships come out of the closet. Those pioneers face some very real risks though, especially if they have kids and are divorced and or separated from the biological parent of their child(ren).

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Nestor,

What is wrong with you!? The more complicated the facts and the law, the greater the need for attorneys and the longer it will take for us to resolve it - and consequently, the larger our fees.

Feel bad ?! Just the opposite!

I'm an attorney who is uncomfortable with significant emotional conflicts. I stay out of family court for that reason. Imagining the complications and emotions that would run through a polyamorus divorce/child custody case really gives me the willies. I can't imagine ever taking such a case regardless of how much money I could make.

And, again for the record, this does not mean I think there should be a legal or social prohibition to consentual polyamorus relationships.

[Slurms McKenzie]

sorry for the wall of text

I am sure you can express this opinion if you like, but it is generally helpful to support the opinion with facts that it was based on.

if children see happy, healthy relationships, how is this harmful to them?

if children see one of their parents always seems to hide they are unhappy (and trust me, kids see this!) how is that good for them?

Well admittedly my parents marriage has been a very unhappy one for as long as I can remember and my older brother says the same.

And they weren't hiding the unhappiness either, especially my father. Our entire relationship has been coloured by the fact that I've always seen him as a big shouty thing who threw childish tantrums and would leave in the middle of a holiday and go home because of an arguement with my mum. And even today, I still feel mildly uncomfortable around him, even though he isn't the big guy anymore but has shrunk into a very unhealthy-looking skinny old man with a very big pot belly. I still feel mildly nervous around him.

However, whenever the word divorce was thrown around when I was a child or teenager, I still found it terrifying and didn't want it to happen, even though I knew they both would have been happier for it. And I remember finding a suggestion by my brother one night, that my Dad might have slept around as extremely distressing too. I wanted them to stay together.

Admittedly in retrospect, if they had divorced, you know, I probably would have adjusted. However, the fact that I found the prospect as distressing as I did, even though I was aware of how unhappy the situation was, still suggests to me that children feel safer and more secure in a monogamous environment. Or at least that was the case with me anyway.

And anyway, even having lived through a very bad example of a marriage, that hasn't given me a negative opinion of the institution.

I like the idea of a soulmate, or the "one" or however you want to express it and being committed to that person with nobody else on the side :P

And I don't really buy that people that can love two people at the same time, it wouldn't really fall into my conception of romantic love.....

Actually no... I can see it happening, that its not ridiculous to claim that someone might develop feelings for two different people, but I can't see that as being a good relationship model for many people or many people being cool or happy with it. Or it being the intended norm for romantic human bonding. If that were the case, then why do so many have jealousy issues? Especially men?

Having one partner seems very natural to me, not the opposite

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

sorry for the wall of text

Well admittedly my parents marriage has been a very unhappy one for as long as I can remember and my older brother says the same.

And they weren't hiding the unhappiness either, especially my father. Our entire relationship has been coloured by the fact that I've always seen him as a big shouty thing who threw childish tantrums and would leave in the middle of a holiday and go home because of an arguement with my mum. And even today, I still feel mildly uncomfortable around him, even though he isn't the big guy anymore but has shrunk into a very unhealthy-looking skinny old man with a very big pot belly. I still feel mildly nervous around him.

However, whenever the word divorce was thrown around when I was a child or teenager, I still found it terrifying and didn't want it to happen, even though I knew they both would have been happier for it. And I remember finding a suggestion by my brother one night, that my Dad might have slept around as extremely distressing too. I wanted them to stay together.

Admittedly in retrospect, if they had divorced, you know, I probably would have adjusted. However, the fact that I found the prospect as distressing as I did, even though I was aware of how unhappy the situation was, still suggests to me that children feel safer and more secure in a monogamous environment. Or at least that was the case with me anyway.

And anyway, even having lived through a very bad example of a marriage, that hasn't given me a negative opinion of the institution.

I like the idea of a soulmate, or the "one" or however you want to express it and being committed to that person with nobody else on the side :P

And I don't really buy that people that can love two people at the same time, it wouldn't really fall into my conception of romantic love.....

Actually no... I can see it happening, that its not ridiculous to claim that someone might develop feelings for two different people, but I can't see that as being a good relationship model for many people or many people being cool or happy with it. Or it being the intended norm for romantic human bonding. If that were the case, then why do so many have jealousy issues? Especially men?

Having one partner seems very natural to me, not the opposite

Thank you for that.

I am sure you would have adjusted too, based on you not having a bad opinion of marriage. My siblings and I went through it, (very similar to yours, though in alcoholism and abuse as well) my older two kids went though it, but my older son, as a teenager, still felt the hurt of the divorce and begged me not to leave my second husband when things went bad because he didn't want his little brother to go through the same things he went through. :love:

To be honest, I stayed in that first marriage too long because I refused to accept that divorce was the answer. I didn't want to do that to my kids. It is emotionally draining to try and hide from your kids how unhappy you are. (and if you are that drained putting up a front, you are probably not being the best parent) Thankfully, he eventually left me. (although I didn't feel that way at the time ;) )

I still love my first husband some (you know, once I stopped hating him :P ), and I love my current husband and I love my best friend.

[Yagathai]

My attitude towards this topic is less complex than Terra's, but can be summarized most pithily as: In the end, it's all just poles in holes.

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

My attitude towards this topic is less complex than Terra's, but can be summarized most pithily as: In the end, it's all just poles in holes.

How phallocentric.

[Mauvka]

I am very glad to see this topic up on the boards. Thanks especially to Terra and Xray for posting personal perspectives on the matter.

I am currently in a situation where my bf and I are theoretically nonmonogamous, but functionally exclusive. We started seeing each other while I was in an open relationship with someone, but closed things a year ago when that relationship ended and I was going through the breakup pains. The question of if, how and when to reopen our relationship has been a subject of conversation between us ever since.

I've always felt attracted to the concept of ethical nonmonogamy, and the fact that permanent monogamy is not the default outcome for us, is one of my (many) favorite things about this relationship. I am excited by the prospect of exploring sexuality with other people when the time is right. The model where a primary relationship is established over many years that is solid, trusting, and loving enough to support a degree of openness just makes perfect sense to me. But then, I grew up reading Dan Savage at a formative age, so between his mores, and the general explorativeness in scifi when it comes to relationship setups (cue recollections of reading Asimov's "The Gods Themselves" in middle school, where the aliens mate in triads), I was probably exposed to the idea of nonmonogamy as just not something to make a big fuss about.

[Angalin]

Yeah, also I can't see the introduction of third parties being good for a family set-up.

Happens all the time post-divorce, when new partners are introduced. For kids, the main thing is whether the additional person is kind to, loving towards and respectful of them and their parent(s). Here my caveat would be that if you know the new person isn't going to stick around, don't let the kids get too attached to him or her. That kind of loss is hard, which is true of any relationship, friendly or romantic, and may explain why Terra and his husband have built in certain protocols regarding additional partners. (Great post, Terra. :love: )

Having one partner seems very natural to me, not the opposite

Natural to you. Not to everyone. I'm a one-partner person, but just because it's right for me doesn't mean it works for everybody. Viz. this thread.

[Kalbear]

Tying people up and whipping people while teasing their clit and forcing them to beg me to let them come sounds very natural to me. Not the opposite.

[TrackerNeil]

I feel as though those who reveal they are non-monogamous often get the same treatment as vegetarians/vegans in that people immediately start probing for their hypocrisies. (Do you wear leather, eat eggs, blah blah.) It's as if there's an assumption that vegetarians are always silently judging ominvores, and must therefore be preemptively proven to be hypocrites. I sometimes see the same treatment of non-monogamists. Maybe it's a fear that those demographics are getting something the rest of us somehow missed, I don't know.

For myself, I'm just too damned tired to manage more than one romantic relationship. Hell, even keeping a boy on the side just sounds too exhausting; I'd rather just spend my free time playing Ultimate or watching reruns of "Bewitched."

[Tears of Lys]

Someone save Terra's post somewhere so it's not eaten by the Board at some point.

Okay, thx.

[kungtotte]

I think you're perfectly justified to feel that way, Chats, and you're not overreacting at all.

For any kind of poly relationship to work there has to be a lot of honesty and integrity from each party; that means you stick to the agreed upon relationship structure and you don't blab personal information about one party to another. That last part isn't even a poly-specific thing, it's just not done ever.

It sounds like Mr. Ironman just isn't able to handle a non-monogamous relationship and he wasn't honest enough with himself to realise that and tell you up front.

[daskool]

I feel as though those who reveal they are non-monogamous often get the same treatment as vegetarians/vegans in that people immediately start probing for their hypocrisies. (Do you wear leather, eat eggs, blah blah.) It's as if there's an assumption that vegetarians are always silently judging ominvores, and must therefore be preemptively proven to be hypocrites. I sometimes see the same treatment of non-monogamists. Maybe it's a fear that those demographics are getting something the rest of us somehow missed, I don't know.

For myself, I'm just too damned tired to manage more than one romantic relationship. Hell, even keeping a boy on the side just sounds too exhausting; I'd rather just spend my free time playing Ultimate or watching reruns of "Bewitched."

Yeah K.

Some people don't want to fuck the same person for the rest of their lives, some people get bored in a relationship, divorce and break up is hard and being free to fuck whoever you feel like while still having a domestic partner is not. What's the need to dress the whole thing up in flowery language though?

[Shryke]

I feel as though those who reveal they are non-monogamous often get the same treatment as vegetarians/vegans in that people immediately start probing for their hypocrisies. (Do you wear leather, eat eggs, blah blah.) It's as if there's an assumption that vegetarians are always silently judging ominvores, and must therefore be preemptively proven to be hypocrites. I sometimes see the same treatment of non-monogamists. Maybe it's a fear that those demographics are getting something the rest of us somehow missed, I don't know.

It is the same thing as vegentarians or vegans or whatever.

By choosing option B, they are communicating that "B is better then A". For them at least. But people tend to miss the second part alot of the time, especially for things as fundamental as eating or fucking. And so people feel the need to validate their own choice of A by poking looking for where B is obviously worse and you are just being silly and making the wrong choice.

Not because they are afraid B might be better, but because they feel the need to nail down exactly why B is "worse".

[Arkhangel]

I feel as though those who reveal they are non-monogamous often get the same treatment as vegetarians/vegans in that people immediately start probing for their hypocrisies. (Do you wear leather, eat eggs, blah blah.) It's as if there's an assumption that vegetarians are always silently judging ominvores, and must therefore be preemptively proven to be hypocrites. I sometimes see the same treatment of non-monogamists. Maybe it's a fear that those demographics are getting something the rest of us somehow missed, I don't know.

It actually seems to me that that reaction, and much of the surprise and negativity in general, is less about personally being non-monogamous and more about knowingly and willingly letting your partner be non-monogamous. Think about it, a guy in a bar admits to his mates that he has a mistress, a woman tells her best friend about her affair with the hot pool boy her husband just hired - for some people in some places, admissions of non-monogamy will be met with backslaps and high fives, where in the exact same context an acknowledgement that your partner is non-monogamous with your consent would be met with bewilderment and, as you say, even veiled hostility.

I actually don't think there's anything unusual or rare about people wanting to be personally non-monogamous. I don't think that's the sticking point that keeps polyamory from the mainstream. The rare thing is the willingness to let your partner be non-monogamous.

[brook]

I have had to fake jealousy I don't feel in previous relationships because otherwise apparently my partners couldn't accept that I really loved them.