Main Theories about the Others!

[Black Crow]

Also, I'd like to see the quote about the Others not being human. Because many times Martin's words are never that clear.

The Others look human. About them not-being human...I've already said the Others can be either Humans or ancient COTF, but even if they were just humans...this is the Others we are talking about. This would be the purest form of Ice Magic we could see.

It was in an essay by the artist Tommy Patterson about how he depicted the walkers in the comic book version:

I had many talks with George. He told me of the ice swords, and the reflective, camouflaging armor that picks up the images of the things around it like a clear, still pond. He spoke a lot about what they were not, but what they were was harder to put into words. Here is what George said, in one e-mail: 'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.”

[butterbumps!]

I agree with you a bit, yes, there is a lot of evil in the story. but the White Walkers/ Others are actually considered big if not the MAIN Antagonists of the story, we still have to learn more about them, however, we know that they are very bad when it comes to the Prologue of A Game of Thrones where they are actually killing the humans and then bringing them back to life to kill even more humans. And yes, there are also EVIL humans such as Ramsay, he's the worst, then there is Joffrey, good thing he drunk that wine!

What do you mean by "The Others are considered the MAIN big bad"? Like, by the characters? That this is what the reader is supposed to think?

I'm directly challenging the idea that this is what the reader is supposed to think.

What makes them bad, anyway? Because they raise the dead in thrall? The Reds raise the dead too. Even better, the Reds are super excited for Azor Ahai, because when Azor Ahai returns, he's supposed to bring forth an endless summer, make death bend the knee, and raise the dead as his army. How is that remotely more virtuous than the Others' magic?

ETA: I'll go further with this actually. Look how fire magic was used for thousands of years, and what came out of that (I seem to recall a long slavery campaign by the Valyrians and their dragons sticking a bunch of people into their hot mines, and then something of an "endless summer" coming for them. I'd most certainly prefer getting wighted to this).

[yolkboy]

Also, I'd like to see the quoute about the Others not being human. Because many times Martin's words are never that clear.

It was to an artist ie he's describing how they should be drawn.

[Ingelheim]

It was in an essay by the artist Tommy Patterson about how he depicted the walkers in the comic book version:

I had many talks with George. He told me of the ice swords, and the reflective, camouflaging armor that picks up the images of the things around it like a clear, still pond. He spoke a lot about what they were not, but what they were was harder to put into words. Here is what George said, in one e-mail: 'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.”

It was to an artist ie he's describing how they should be drawn.

Oh, I had forgotten that quote.

[Taenqyrhae]

Oh, I had forgotten that quote.

I checked out some scans and the comic book Others are FAR closer to what I imagined from the books than the topless bearded blue zombies of HBO.

[Iulian Fedot]

What do you mean by "The Others are considered the MAIN big bad"? Like, by the characters? That this is what the reader is supposed to think?

I'm directly challenging the idea that this is what the reader is supposed to think.

What makes them bad, anyway? Because they raise the dead in thrall? The Reds raise the dead too. Even better, the Reds are super excited for Azor Ahai, because when Azor Ahai returns, he's supposed to bring forth an endless summer, make death bend the knee, and raise the dead as his army. How is that remotely more virtuous than the Others' magic?

ETA: I'll go further with this actually. Look how fire magic was used for thousands of years, and what came out of that (I seem to recall a long slavery campaign by the Valyrians and their dragons sticking a bunch of people into their hot mines, and then something of an "endless summer" coming for them. I'd most certainly prefer getting wighted to this).

Ok, why did I think of The Other's as the main antagonists? Well, A Game of Thrones, the Prologue chapter, the White Walkers slaughter any living things and then turn them into evil things that will then slaughter other living things. Besides, if you are starting your own story, wouldn't you be thinking of introducing you Big Bad Guys at first? I see that in most Fantasy worlds that is how they do it. Besides, why do you think they are coming at this time? At a time when Westeros was ruled by a drunk king soon to be followed by a vicious boy to be followed by a little nine year old boy who won't be able to control Westeros. They picked an impeccable timing to introduce White Walkers, a time when Westeros is at it's weakest, all the good leaders long dead: Tywin Lannister, Ned Stark, Jon Arryn, Hoster Tully. Tell me who is to be in charge now? Stannis? His fires burn low, I begin to have doubts in him.

But then again, I agree with your point against the Fire God, I do also believe that they could be bad since all those sacrifices. I do not trust Melisandre at all.

[butterbumps!]

Ok, why did I think of The Other's as the main antagonists? Well, A Game of Thrones, the Prologue chapter, the White Walkers slaughter any living things and then turn them into evil things that will then slaughter other living things. Besides, if you are starting your own story, wouldn't you be thinking of introducing you Big Bad Guys at first? I see that in most Fantasy worlds that is how they do it. Besides, why do you think they are coming at this time? At a time when Westeros was ruled by a drunk king soon to be followed by a vicious boy to be followed by a little nine year old boy who won't be able to control Westeros. They picked an impeccable timing to introduce White Walkers, a time when Westeros is at it's weakest, all the good leaders long dead: Tywin Lannister, Ned Stark, Jon Arryn, Hoster Tully. Tell me who is to be in charge now? Stannis? His fires burn low, I begin to have doubts in him.

But then again, I agree with your point against the Fire God, I do also believe that they could be bad since all those sacrifices. I do not trust Melisandre at all.

Yes, the Others are shown at the start of the series and presented to us as the big bad. aGoT is bookended by the apparent "big bad ice" and then their apparent solution of Dany and her dragons in the that last chapter.

The subsequent books keep the Others in relative mystery, but go on to show us that Dany and her dragons are not unambiguously good, that fire is no better than ice, and we're introduced to a few organizations that seek balance rather than fire or ice (the CotF and the Faceless have a whole balance thing going on). In other words, although the first book shows us what at first appears to be "villain" and "solution" via bookending, the books go on to show us that the actual problem is in extreme states of anything, that fire is not unambiguously good, that balance is likely the desired state of being, and by extension, that the Others are probably not unambiguously bad. To add, what we see of humans doing to each other kind of puts the Others' "villainy" to shame.

So I'm saying that the initial impression of this is directly undermined by what follows.

[Two and a Halfhand]

Here's my theory,even though it's filled with speculation hear me out

We know from Leaf that the Cotf didnt liked the way Men treated nature when they invaded Westeros.Killing its animals like the great lions,giants and direwolves and cutting all weirdwood trees forced them to fight a war against the race that was destroying everything they hold dear,a war which even after much sacrifice they could not win.

So they flee to a place where they can plan their revenge,a place where nature is still intact,weirwoods still exist and men wouldnt go.So they create a powerful race able to take back the land that was stolen from them,the Others,and the Long Night happens.

So why do the Cotf helped stopping the Eternal Winter and putting an end to the Others?Well,either the Cotf that helped mankind and the Last Hero wasnt the same ones that created the Others,or,a version which I prefer,couldnt tame the monsters they created.

For me the Others are like the dragons,very powerful but very hard to control.When things got out of hand they were able to stop the Long Night when the Others started acting on their own,and helped building the Wall since the Others are dangerous and the world is best without them.

Now with its fire counterpart being brought to life and with Crasters help,the Others are back...Winter is coming

[Iulian Fedot]

Yes, the Others are shown at the start of the series and presented to us as the big bad. aGoT is bookended by the apparent "big bad ice" and then their apparent solution of Dany and her dragons in the that last chapter.

The subsequent books keep the Others in relative mystery, but go on to show us that Dany and her dragons are not unambiguously good, that fire is no better than ice, and we're introduced to a few organizations that seek balance rather than fire or ice (the CotF and the Faceless have a whole balance thing going on). In other words, although the first book shows us what at first appears to be "villain" and "solution" via bookending, the books go on to show us that the actual problem is in extreme states of anything, that fire is not unambiguously good, that balance is likely the desired state of being, and by extension, that the Others are probably not unambiguously bad. To add, what we see of humans doing to each other kind of puts the Others' "villainy" to shame.

So I'm saying that the initial impression of this is directly undermined by what follows.

I agree with you but at the same time I don't agree with you. Yes, throughout the book we learnt that humans do vile things to each other, but The Others are standing on the end of the world chilling in the cool air and slaughtering whatever humans cross their path. The show in Season 4 Episode 4 tells us that the White Walkers are not fully ready to attack, they are still multiplying in numbers. It tells us that maybe at winter's dawn, they will be ready to unleash themselves. As for other antagonists in the story, well, they kinda die out. So, that doesn't make them main antagonists.

SPOILER! Joffrey is dead and he was thought to be the main antagonist for the first three books as well as his Grandfather.

As for Ramsay, where the show left off, we're told that The Boltons and maybe Frey's are the next Antagonists but I doubt they will last until A Dream of Spring.

I haven't red the books but something tells me that a Greyjoy is likely to be a big antagonist as well throughout the next books.

Now, are all these antagonists which I spoke to you living throughout every book? Why don't the White Walkers just die out like Joffrey did. Maybe because Martin has got BIG plans for them. SPOILERS!! Maybe by the time Winds of Winter is out they might be ready and they are launching a big assault on the Wall whilst Stannis goes South to Winterfell.

Note, I called these people antagonists because they are enemies towards our favourite and main characters. The White Walkers have no allies but hate everyone on the living side. Hence why I think of them as the main Antagonists.

But in a way I also agree with you on the point, when we thought that the babies will be sacrificed I thought that they will open their throats or something but instead we were introduced to something kinder. For instance, Craster's sons will live better as Walkers rather than with him cause he will not treat them well.

[butterbumps!]

I agree with you but at the same time I don't agree with you. Yes, throughout the book we learnt that humans do vile things to each other, but The Others are standing on the end of the world chilling in the cool air and slaughtering whatever humans cross their path. The show in Season 4 Episode 4 tells us that the White Walkers are not fully ready to attack, they are still multiplying in numbers. It tells us that maybe at winter's dawn, they will be ready to unleash themselves. As for other antagonists in the story, well, they kinda die out. So, that doesn't make them main antagonists.

SPOILER! Joffrey is dead and he was thought to be the main antagonist for the first three books as well as his Grandfather.

As for Ramsay, where the show left off, we're told that The Boltons and maybe Frey's are the next Antagonists but I doubt they will last until A Dream of Spring.

I haven't red the books but something tells me that a Greyjoy is likely to be a big antagonist as well throughout the next books.

Now, are all these antagonists which I spoke to you living throughout every book? Why don't the White Walkers just die out like Joffrey did. Maybe because Martin has got BIG plans for them. SPOILERS!! Maybe by the time Winds of Winter is out they might be ready and they are launching a big assault on the Wall whilst Stannis goes South to Winterfell.

Note, I called these people antagonists because they are enemies towards our favourite and main characters. The White Walkers have no allies but hate everyone on the living side. Hence why I think of them as the main Antagonists.

But in a way I also agree with you on the point, when we thought that the babies will be sacrificed I thought that they will open their throats or something but instead we were introduced to something kinder. For instance, Craster's sons will live better as Walkers rather than with him cause he will not treat them well.

Hang on a second-- you haven't read the books? If that's the case, and you're just going by the show, you might need to post this to the show forum instead. This is the book forum, and we're not supposed to be talking about the show here, since the show and the books are 2 separate things.

And for the record, we don't know that the Others are enemies to all our "favorite characters" or that they truly "hate every living thing."

[Black Crow]

Indeed, the show is an adaptation of the books. The very nature of the production process means that [1] some stuff has to be left out, [2] other stuff needs to be changed partly to simplify the story and partly to cover the gaps left by [1], and then [3] some stuff only hinted at or suggested in the books inevitably becomes explicit - such as the Craster's sons business. This can be helpful in trying to interpret what's in the books but it is no substitute for the books. If you want to try to understand what is going on you really must read the books.

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

I have to agree with what you said because there is a rumour that the White Walker that turned the baby in S4E4 is the Night's King who is also rumoured to have been a Stark before.

Nan said it was a Stark, but that many thought it was a Bolton. This is also a part of a theory: there always has to be a Stark in Winterfell. With all the Starks gone, doesn't this also give the Others more power? I have speculated before that if the swords that Bran and Hodor and Osha took when they left the crypts opened the door for the Kings of Winter and Brandon & Rickard Stark shades to guide them. I know, it sounds farfetched, but things haven't exactly gone as planned for the Boltons at Winterfell. I'm just wondering if those Stark shades are not working against them. Like I said, farfetched, however, it is fantasy so...... Unless someone can tell me another reason there has to be a Stark at Winterfell. While the book says that two of the swords from the crypt were taken from Brandon and Rickard, the other sword, described as large and ancient is Hodor's. If Hodor is the great Other, him having an ancient sword from an un named King of Winterfell may play into this story somewhere.

[Iulian Fedot]

Hang on a second-- you haven't read the books? If that's the case, and you're just going by the show, you might need to post this to the show forum instead. This is the book forum, and we're not supposed to be talking about the show here, since the show and the books are 2 separate things.

And for the record, we don't know that the Others are enemies to all our "favorite characters" or that they truly "hate every living thing."

Oh come on, I ment that I didn't get to the fifth book, in fact, I am almost finished with Clash of Kings, and besides, the Books and the Show can be a bit similar, yes there are a lot of scenes from the books that are left out and they have made some scenes in the movies that enhance the story a bit better.

Who says you aren't supposed to talk about the show here, you can talk about the show and the books here!!

Besides I do think that the Others "hate every living thing" as in the books they are shown the be merciless. They kill any living person they meet and they steal the babies, only to repopulate.

Nan said it was a Stark, but that many thought it was a Bolton. This is also a part of a theory: there always has to be a Stark in Winterfell. With all the Starks gone, doesn't this also give the Others more power? I have speculated before that if the swords that Bran and Hodor and Osha took when they left the crypts opened the door for the Kings of Winter and Brandon & Rickard Stark shades to guide them. I know, it sounds farfetched, but things haven't exactly gone as planned for the Boltons at Winterfell. I'm just wondering if those Stark shades are not working against them. Like I said, farfetched, however, it is fantasy so...... Unless someone can tell me another reason there has to be a Stark at Winterfell. While the book says that two of the swords from the crypt were taken from Brandon and Rickard, the other sword, described as large and ancient is Hodor's. If Hodor is the great Other, him having an ancient sword from an un named King of Winterfell may play into this story somewhere.

I do like your theory about Winterfell's ghosts coming to hunt down the Boltons.

Not many know who exactly the Night's King is but he is a Northerner Nonetheless and he would have some Stark Blood in him wether is 10% or 100%.

[butterbumps!]

Oh come on, I ment that I didn't get to the fifth book, in fact, I am almost finished with Clash of Kings, and besides, the Books and the Show can be a bit similar, yes there are a lot of scenes from the books that are left out and they have made some scenes in the movies that enhance the story a bit better.

Who says you aren't supposed to talk about the show here, you can talk about the show and the books here!!

Besides I do think that the Others "hate every living thing" as in the books they are shown the be merciless. They kill any living person they meet and they steal the babies, only to repopulate.

Well, the people running the forum say you can't talk about the show in the book forum. There's even a warning at the top of the first page. This is the link to the Show forum, where books + show can be discussed. We don't all watch the show, just so you know (I don't, for example).

If you're only on Clash, then you're missing a lot of info about the Reds and even some further elaboration of the Others.

[Iulian Fedot]

Well, the people running the forum say you can't talk about the show in the book forum. There's even a warning at the top of the first page. This is the link to the Show forum, where books + show can be discussed. We don't all watch the show, just so you know (I don't, for example).

If you're only on Clash, then you're missing a lot of info about the Reds and even some further elaboration of the Others.

Gotcha about the TV Show. :bowdown:

I'm missing a lot of info about the Reds? Forgive me, but I kinda doubt that there is anything about the Others in the next three books, I am not sure about the opening of Clash of Kings, with Samwel Tarly and the Night's Watch but I do doubt that we see the Others in Book 4 and 5!Oh, and about the Reds? Do you mean the Reeds? I don't get you there! :dunno:

[Ibbison from Ibben]

I suspect the main reason most readers think of the Others as being the Main Big Bad is that, according to Old Nan's Tale, they once came close to dominating Westeros, and their domination seemed to be (was believed to be) incompatible with the continued existence of human life. Or at least highly detrimental to the continued existence of human life. That might not be actually true, but that's how it is remembered. The Others may be working in what they consider to be their own legitimate interests, doing what they feel they have the right to do in order to survive and thrive. That doesn't make them evil, but they are still the enemy, or are believed to be.

If we assume that the Red Lot are the opposite of the Others, which seems likely to me, we don't have a historical example of Fire domination to contrast to the Ice domination of the Long Winter. Valyria used Fire (and dragons) as a tool, but they weren't a threat to overall human existence. They just played politics, making war with their enemies, levying tribute, etc. Ghis did the same thing. And probably Qarth in their own time.

Most think that Fire domination would be as bad as Ice domination (as do I), but we don't have an example.

ETA a bit

[butterbumps!]

Gotcha about the TV Show. :bowdown:

I'm missing a lot of info about the Reds? Forgive me, but I kinda doubt that there is anything about the Others in the next three books, I am not sure about the opening of Clash of Kings, with Samwel Tarly and the Night's Watch but I do doubt that we see the Others in Book 4 and 5!Oh, and about the Reds? Do you mean the Reeds? I don't get you there! :dunno:

I mean we learn a lot more about Azor Ahai, the R'hllor followers (the "Reds"), other religions that pertain to balance (Children of the Forest and another group called the Faceless Men), we get Mel's own Point of view, elaboration of fire wights (Beric and Thoros-related stuff + something else that will probably be a spoiler to you; I just don't know if the show's gone there yet) and a number of other things that call into question the "fire and ice" good/ evil dichotomy.

We see the Others again in Storm of Swords, and later we get some further information about the last hero and the Others from books that Jon and Sam find. As well as further information about them from Tormund in book 5.

I'm not sure why you say you doubt we learn more about the Others in these books.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

As for theories, I'm fully on board with the idea that the White Walkers are formerly human Ice Priest/Magic User types, an Ice equivalent of Mel or Moqorro. When you kill a White Walker, it is reduced to a puddle of water. I expect if Mel is ever killed, she will be reduced to a pile of ash. A Greenseer or a Green Man would be the Earth magic equivalent. The Rhoyne excerpt of tWoIaF reveals

water wizards.

Dany mentions stormsingers and aeromancers in aGoT, which could be air/wind/storm equivalents.

I suspect that Brandon the Builder was originally of the same people that the White Walkers came from, but turned his cloak and fought against them. (The proto Others and the proto Starks were the same folks.) That's why the Starks were called the Kings of Winter by people south of the Wall.

I reject the idea that the CotF created the Others, are in league with them, or some became them. The CotF are Earth Singers, and do not wield Ice. The White Walkers resemble humans, not CotF.

I think that overall amounts of Ice magic and Fire magic are equal, but they normally neutralize each other (like a positive and a negative ion bound together). The Rise of Valyria and the Long Winter probably coincided; as the Valyrians mastered Fire magic and the Others mastered Ice magic, the two processes fed on each other. The current world problems are caused by too much free Fire and Ice magic. Excess Ice magic has been locked up in the Wall since it was built. (The Wall is not an Ice barrier used against Ice magic, but a CotF designed Earth magic based trap for Ice magic.) Excess Fire magic has been out of control since the Doom of Valyria. The way to beat the Others is to somehow bring all that Ice and Fire magic together so that they neutralize each other.

But these are just guesses for the time being.

EAT - grammar, spelling fixes

[wolfmaid7]

What do you mean by "The Others are considered the MAIN big bad"? Like, by the characters? That this is what the reader is supposed to think?

I'm directly challenging the idea that this is what the reader is supposed to think.

What makes them bad, anyway? Because they raise the dead in thrall? The Reds raise the dead too. Even better, the Reds are super excited for Azor Ahai, because when Azor Ahai returns, he's supposed to bring forth an endless summer, make death bend the knee, and raise the dead as his army. How is that remotely more virtuous than the Others' magic?

ETA: I'll go further with this actually. Look how fire magic was used for thousands of years, and what came out of that (I seem to recall a long slavery campaign by the Valyrians and their dragons sticking a bunch of people into their hot mines, and then something of an "endless summer" coming for them. I'd most certainly prefer getting wighted to this).

I do't believe the wws or the Red priest are raising the dead,but other than that i agree with everything you said here.Readers have gotten suckered into thinking the wws are the ultimate eveil because that is what misguided,misinformed characters believe to be so.From where i stand i wouldn't want any Red Priest near my homestead.The thinking among most readers is the Red Lot is good the white lot is bad....Or Fire good Cold bad its so much bigger than that. Has anyone asked a ww if they wanted an endless Winter?Does anybody know what they want could it be they are here because Winter is here? But we know for sure that's what some in the Red Lot want (endless Summer) and that is just as bad.

[The Puffin Has Three Heads]

(Sorry, the system is not letting me quote for some reason).

* * *

Mitt Baratheon in post 85 wrote:

I checked out some scans and the comic book Others are FAR closer to what I imagined from the books than the topless bearded blue zombies of HBO.

* * *

LOL!

I'm convinced HBO pulled a switch on us. Dig out your DVDs and go back to the prologue of season one, episode one, with Will, Gared and Ser Waymar.

We book readers were expecting Ser Waymar to be killed by a white walker with a sword, so when the large topless desiccated-looking man with a sword and with glowing blue eyes uses a sword to decapitate Waymar we all think - "Oooh, is that a white walker? Gee, that's sure different from what I expected. They must not have had enough money in the special effects budget. Oh, well."

No! It was a fake-out! D & D switched it so TV Waymar and TV Gared were both killed by zombie-wights and not white walkers.

It's only at the very end of that sequence when the big guy that killed TV Gared is walking toward TV Will that we hear a particular sound effect for the first time - that cracking ice sound that the books say is the language of the white walkers. That was the sound of "the cavalry coming to the rescue" to save TV Will from the nasty killer zombie-wights. We only heard the white walkers arrive on the scene, but never saw them!

Every scene involving the white walkers is a 'who's on first' style display of miscommunication, but GRRM intended it that way. ;)

edited a typo

edited again - My apologies, won't talk about the TV show in the book forum again. Sorry!