Daenerys Stormborn - A Re-read Project Part VI: ADWD

[MoIaF]

Welcome to the Daenerys Re-read Project!

Before we get started with our discussion, Id like to take a moment to thank the amazing group of posters who have agreed be part of the team analyzing Dany's chapters.

• Annara Snow
• Arya kiddin'
• BearQueen87
• GoldenFleece2
• HelenaAndTheMachine
• MoIaF
• Mladen
• PatrickStormborn
• SeanF
• Suzanna Stormborn
• The Good Queen Alysanne
• TheMysteriousOne

Now lets get down to business:

The aim of the re-read project is to gain a better understanding of Dany's character: by analyzing her motivations and her unique prospective. We would also like to gain a better understanding of the (very distinct) environment in which she finds herself. The structure of the re-read will be a chapter by chapter review. Each week one of us will be presenting a chapter for discussion. We will be summarizing / analyzing all of Dany's 31 chapters as well as Barristans 4 chapters.

We want to have a clear discussion looking objectively at the text. This isnt a appreciation thread so we ask that posters stay focus on the discussion at hand.

As with most re-reads there are a few ground rules which we would appreciate you follow:

• Discussion should focus on the chapters of the week (or previous chapters). You can reference future chapters if necessary for the discussion, but please stay on topic.
• When discussion please refrain from making unsubstantiated comments or be disrespectful towards other posters. We are aiming to do an objective analysis and it would be greatly appreciated if we stay on topic and not argue with each other about our personal feeling about the character.
• Your observations are very important to our discussion; if you find instances of foreshadowing, interesting symbolism, important parallels with other characters or other thoughts that can add to our discussion please share them with us. When ever possible quote from the text, it'll help enrich the discussion.

Below you will find the schedule for our discussion. We aim to stick to the schedule as closely as possible; however, we ask that you bear with us if there are any delays.

ADwD
Daenerys I 7/6/14 PatickStormborn
Daenerys II 7/13/14 TheMysteriousOne
Daenerys III 7/20/14 BearQueen87
Daenerys IV 7/27/14 Suzanna Stormborn
Daenerys V 8/3/14 Annara Snow
Daenerys VI 8/10/14 MoIaF
Daenerys VII 8/17/14 Queen Alysanne
Daenerys VIII 8/24/14 SeanF
Daenerys IX 9/7/14 MoIaF
Daenerys X 10/12/14 QueenAlysanne

Barristan I 9/21/14 Parwan
Barristan II 9/25/14 Parwan
Barristan III 9/30/14 HelenaAndTheMachine
Barristan IV 10/5/14 HelenaAndTheMachine

Tyrion II 7/9/14 Mladen
Tyrion III 7/16/14 Mladen
Tyrion VI 7/30/14 HelenaAndTheMachine
Tyrion VII 8/6/14 HelenaAndTheMachine
Tyrion VIII 8/13/14 BearQueen87
Tyrion IX 8/19/14 BearQueen87
Tyrion X 8/27/14 Suzanna Stormborn
Tyrion XI 8/31/14 BearQueen87
Tyrion XII 9/13/14 Suzanna Stormborn

Quentyn I 7/23/14 Suzanna Stormborn
Quentyn II 8/2/14 HelenaAndTheMachine
Quentyn III 9/3/14 MoIaF
Quentyn IV 9/17/14 Queen Alysanne

Here you'll find our previous discussion of Dany's AGoT, ACoK, and ASoS chapters:

AGoT

Daenerys I 1/5/14 Queen Alysanne
Daenerys II 1/12/14 MoIaF
Daenerys III 1/19/14 SeanF
Daenerys IV 1/26/14 MoIaF
Daenerys V 2/2/14 MoIaF / GoldenFleece2
Daenerys VI 2/9/14 Annara Snow
Daenerys VII 2/16/14 Suzanna Stormborn
Daenerys VIII 2/23/14 Arya kiddin
Daenerys IX 3/2/14 TheMysteriousOne
Daenerys X 3/9/14 PatrickStormborn

ACoK
Daenerys I 3/23/14 GoldenFleece2
Daenerys II 3/30/14 Queen Alysanne
Daenerys III 4/6/14 SeanF
Daenerys IV 4/13/14 MoIaF
Daenerys V 4/20/14 Suzanna Sromborn

ASoS
Daenerys I 5/4/14 PatrickStormborn
Daenerys II 5/11/14 MoIaF
Daenerys III 5/18/14 Annara Snow
Daenerys IV 6/1/14 MoIaF
Daenerys V 6/22/14 TheMysteriousOne
Daenerys VI 7/2/14 Queen Alysanne

Resources:
There have been a few Daenerys re-reads in the past and I though I'd add links to them as they might be helpful to us in our re-read.

• A Daenerys Character Arc Reread I
• A Daenerys Character Arc Reread II
• A Daenerys Character Arc Reread III
• Daenerys: Rethinking and Remapping a Protagonist
• Dragon stirring - A Heretical look at Dany

[MoIaF]

Announcement

As we reach the end of the Dany re-read :bawl: we're starting to get re-read withdrawal. So, in order to treat our impending ailment Queen Alysanne and I have decided that we need to embark on another re-read.

"The Winged Wolf" The Bran Stark Re-read Project!

If you are interested in participating (chapter analysis) please PM me and let me know. :cheers:

I'll be working on chapter assignment.

We are aiming to start the re-read by November 2nd.

Here are the chapter:

AGOT

Prologue

Bran I

Bran II

Bran III

Bran IV

Bran V

Bran VI

Bran VII

ACOK

Bran I

Bran II

Bran III

Bran IV

Bran V

Bran VI

Bran VII

ASOS

Bran I

Bran II

Bran III

Bran IV

ADWD

Bran I

Bran II

Bran III

[BearQueen87]

Ooooh #6.

Y'know...6 is just three, twice. THREE. It's fate, guys. :)

[MoIaF]

Oh yeah!

We subconsciously did it to honor our beloved Silver Queen. It was mean to be! :cheers:

[Parwan]

From Ilred, Posted Yesterday, 09:58 P

Because losing is worse. If Volantis would have made the difference between winning and losing, he'd be in his right mind to crawl all the way down the demon road to beg them to intervene. Dothraki the same. But Yunkish victory conditions were fairly obvious (The slave regime in Astapor annihilated, Mereen no longer a revolutionary power, Daenerys no longer a revolutionary chieftain(ess)), and once they were met, it was time to end the war. He's going to have to mollify Volantis. He's going to have to pay off sellswords and Dothraki. That is an acceptable problem. It might not even be hisproblem. Furthering that Daenerys hadn't yet been backed into a corner; a Volentene fleet may yet get dragons unleashed on it; the Ghiscari could decamp their plague-zone and leave them to it.

Yunkai threw the kitchen sink at Mereen, they didn't need it all, and their leader achieved his objectives before a lot of it even landed.

Lose what? The main things of substance that could be lost were more likely to be lost by employing the methods used by the Yunkai'i. There is, at best, only a weak basis for saying that any Yunkai'i have a fundamental interest in peace. The main fellow who may be so oriented, if Tyrion's view can be relied upon here, is Yezzan, not Yurkhaz. There is no basis in the text for saying that the methods of the Yunkai'i make sense. They are good at training bed slaves. I guess they are good at trade. In politico-military matters, they do not show signs of competence. Dany felt ashamed to have been defeated by them. That was a highly appropriate feeling. The defeat, however, was only temporary. I'm not sure that it was every going to be anything but temporary.

The main objective of the Yellow City, by any sort of rational analysis, should have been a continuation of their ability to engage in slave trading. That objective was gained when the Targaryen forces marched away. There was no need to start a war at all. Now, the long term prospects for the slavery system would not be so good as long as Dany remains on the throne (with or without a husband). She still has a bunch of freedmen who love her, highly trained soldiers who were formerly slaves, other former slaves taking on important responsibilities, etc. None of this could possibly sit well with intelligent and knowledgeable advocates of the current system. None of it would be altered by the deal agreed to in ADwD. Thus, I don't see how the Yunkai'i or any of their friends achieved long-term objectives. I'll have more to say on this issue below.

Astapor was a pushover. If there are any readers who disagree with this opinion, I have not read their posts. King Cleaver was an idiot. He had neither the ability nor the time to create new Unsullied. His castrated boys could have defeated an army of bed slaves, but that was the extent of the "threat." There was certainly no need to go to the Volantenes to put together a force that could smash the new Astaporian "military." And the idea of bringing in the Dothraki is nothing but idiocy. If a person knows anything about the horselords, he knows that they do not want to be known as traders. No one should presume that he could pay them off. Sure, the men of the Yellow City have dealt with the nomads before, but under very different circumstances, and from behind walls. Here is the situation that the leader of the city created:

There is a strong khalasar heading for his position.

This khalasar is lead by a new khal, thus an unknown factor.

The Yunkai'i are out in the open field.

The conclusion is obvious. The leader of the Yellow City is a fool. This is further reinforced by a matter I have mentioned earlier. Yunkai is wide open. If Khal Jhaqo is a bold and clever fellow, then he will see a golden opportunity presented by his "friend" Yurkhaz zo Yunzak. Forget the pestilence-ridden slave market. Ride hard for Yunkai. It's a very rich place. He can have his men inside the walls before the teenagers left in charge think to close the gates. This is particularly true if said teenagers have the usual Yunkish military acumen.

There is lots more that could be said--

If the Ghiscari had enough sense to consider the possibility of decamping from their plague zone, then why did they create the plague zone in the first place?

Let's say a leaders does have some desire to achieve his objectives by methods short of conquering and sacking. Why would this leader ever allow the hiring of a man like Bloodbeard?

There isn't much basis for saying that Volantis can be mollified by a monetary reward. The leaders of the place have their own problems, and they may not fully appreciate the danger of their situation. As a certain widow said, they might get a different war than they anticipate. However, all indications are that they have more knowledge of the revolutionary significance of Daenerys Targaryen than does any Yunkishman. That certainly is indicated by the comments Qavo made to Tyrion and co. in Selhorys. Remember all that stuff about the kitchen slaves sharpening their knives? I don't see that either the elephants or the tigers would believe that this problem will be solved by the queen's marriage. They don't want money. They want Daenerys Targaryen destroyed. I maintain that this makes them smarter than anyone who thinks he has "achieved his objectives" by getting a royal wedding and seeing the fighting pits reopened. (And I don't believe that is even what Yurkhaz thought)

...

And on and on. That's enough for now though.

[SeanF]

Yurkhaz may have got more than he bargained for, with Volantis. He might have expected a small expeditionary force, rather than the gigantic armada that's coming. It's rather like Alexius I when he asked for help from the Pope to fight the Turks. He expected a few thousand trained cavalry, not the huge Crusader hordes that came into his territory.

The Volantenes do seem to have an especial hatred for Daenerys. They are strongly ideologically committed to slavery, and presumably, terrified at the prospect of social and religious revolution. Over and above that, they probably hate the Targaryens, because Aegon I sided with their enemies.

[Parwan]

1. Yurkhaz may have got more than he bargained for, with Volantis. He might have expected a small expeditionary force, rather than the gigantic armada that's coming. It's rather like Alexius I when he asked for help from the Pope to fight the Turks. He expected a few thousand trained cavalry, not the huge Crusader hordes that came into his territory.

The Volantenes do seem to have an especial hatred for Daenerys. They are strongly ideologically committed to slavery, and presumably, terrified at the prospect of social and religious revolution.

2. Over and above that, they probably hate the Targaryens, because Aegon I sided with their enemies.

1. Politico-military strategy is a complicated business. Different characters in ASoIaF are better at it than others, though I'm not willing to say that anyone is truly great in this area. The Yunkai'i certainly aren't. How good will Dany and other claimants to the Iron Throne prove to be in the future? That's a big question, isn't it?

2. An interesting point. I hadn't considered that.

[Parwan]

I'll post the next Barristan chapter tonight or early tomorrow. Here are some questions that relate to Barristan I, but a discussion of them could overlap into Barristan II.

Does the Shavepate have control of the Brazen Beasts? He believes so, but Selmy doesn't appear convinced of this. The knight tells Missandei to be sure she is talking to the same owl when she arranges a meeting. This indicates that Selmy suspects some of the BBs aren't trustworthy. I guess he thinks they might report to the king. Would any of them report to the king, or actually to Marghaz? I don't see a reason for them to have any loyalty to the king's cousin, but he is technically the boss now.

Half of the BBs are freedmen, right? This means that their loyalty would be to Dany, a significant complicating factor. Either Skahaz or Marghaz would need to move with care. How were the locusts poisoned? It wouldn't seem likely that the Beasts would have been granted access to the royal box or to the food, but what other method would the Shavepate have used to get the poison where he wanted it? We also have the issue of the confectioner. Was the guy tortured into a confession? If so, the Shavepate would have had to be careful not to allow the wrong individuals to participate in the process, or even to know about it. A freedman would inform Selmy.

Being sure that the wrong guys aren't involved in sensitive matters has to be hard when everyone is wearing masks. The Brazen Beasts could remove the masks in private, but exactly what does "in private" mean? For example, a lot of the torture victims (probably all of those who "confessed") weren't tortured to death. Obviously, living victims can identify the torturers who weren't masked.

[BearQueen87]

I'll post the next Barristan chapter tonight or early tomorrow. Here are some questions that relate to Barristan I, but a discussion of them could overlap into Barristan II.

Does the Shavepate have control of the Brazen Beasts? He believes so, but Selmy doesn't appear convinced of this. The knight tells Missandei to be sure she is talking to the same owl when she arranges a meeting. This indicates that Selmy suspects some of the BBs aren't trustworthy. I guess he thinks they might report to the king. Would any of them report to the king, or actually to Marghaz? I don't see a reason for them to have any loyalty to the king's cousin, but he is technically the boss now.

Look forward to your analysis Parwan!

As to the first question here, I think men can very easily be bought. In fact, we see it all the time in King's Landing and Westeros at large. LF is a pro at buying men, particularly the Gold Cloaks who are akin to the Brazen Beasts. Not all of the BB might be bought by Marghaz or the King, but some of them might be, especially the ones who are not freedmen.

[Parwan]

Barristan II

(The Discarded Knight)

Summary

Hizdahr zo Loraq is holding court.Things have changed since Daenerys Targaryen’s departure, and not for the better. Ser Barristan Selmy has a particularly low opinion of Marghaz zo Loraq, the new commander of the Brazen Beasts. The herald calls the court to order, and the ugliness begins. People complain about injuries, damaged property, and relatives who were killed. It isn’t just a matter of presenting grievances to the throne. There is a serious division in the crowd that threatens order. A man starts to talk about Harghaz the Hero, and a freedman behind him shoves him to the ground. Hizdahr is having a hard time keeping things under control. Most of the answering of questions and complaints is being done by Reznak mo Reznak. When a freedwoman asks if the queen is dead, the seneschal denies this.

Barristan sees Quentyn Martell and his companions at the back of the hall. This is not good. The prince is in danger. Selmy isn’t sure how much Quentyn understands of the Ghiscari spoken in Meereen. However, the young man is listening intently. Perhaps he understands at least some of what is being said. He doesn’t grasp the situation well however. Barristan is sure of that. Hizdahr sees the prince and frowns—not a good sign. It’s a worse sign when the king whispers something to Marghaz.

The knight evaluates the Dornishmen. Of the young princeling, he thinks, “That one is his father’s son.” He is a decent lad. Unfortunately, Dany wants fire and Dorne sent her mud. Ser Gerris Drinkwater is a fine looking man, but Barristan believes him to be shallow. He sees him as a false coin. Then a disturbing thought occurs: Quentyn grew up in Dorne. Poison is just about the name of the game there. Could the locusts have been meant for the king? It was his box, after all. With the king dead, “Daenerys might have had no better choice than Quentyn and his marriage pact.”

Three Wise Masters arrive, with armed retinues and Bloodbeard. The sellsword captain pulls a severed head from a sack he is carrying and flings it at Reznak mo Reznak. The seneschal leaps out of the way. The former Lord Commander of the Kingsguard thinks about the monarchs he has served and how they would have reacted to this provocation. The Meereenese leader does not stack up to any of them. Hizdahr zo Loraq at first sits frozen. Then he sputters ineffectively: “this is not…we are not pleased, this…what is the meaning of this…this…” The Yunkai’i claim they have evened the score. Yurkhaz zo Yunzak “perished cruelly.” Groleo was killed in recompense.

The king still seems frozen, but finally manages to bestir himself with Reznak’s help. He asks who leads the Yunkai’i now. The answer is “The council of masters.” Hizzy says that they are responsible for the breach of the peace. A Yunkishman in a breastplate claims that the peace hasn’t been breached. “Blood must pay for blood, a life for a life.” Three Meereenese hostages are returned as an act of “good faith.” The other men will remain as “guests” until the dragons are destroyed. Reznak tries to say that only Dany can make such a decision. Bloodbeard cuts him off, saying that the queen is dead.

The Meereenese king announces that he must consult his council and that the session is over.

Selmy talks to the men from Dorne. He warns them to leave the city, but they do not wish to do so. Quentyn starts to object, “The marriage pact—“ Barristan cuts in, “—was made by two dead men and contained not a word about the queen or you.” He also makes a very significant point: “Your father keeps his secrets well, Prince Quentyn. Too well, I fear.” The knight continues to press the fact that the Dornishmen are in danger. Hizdahr may need a scapegoat for the poisoning, and the guys from Westeros are good candidates. Quentyn Martell says that he would never do such a thing. Selmy believes him, but this does not change his advice—leave now. The prince mentions the name “Barristan the Bold.” He asks, “What name do you think they will give me, should I return to Dorne without Daenerys?” Barristan has an answer.

“‘Quentyn the Wise,’ he suggested. And hoped that it was true.”

[Parwan]

Observations

Hizdahr appears to be an utter weakling. Could this be an act? I don’t think so.

The guy who complains about Barristan’s lack of manners shows incredible chutzpah. He marches into the throne room with his buddies and Bloodbeard, who throws a severed head at a minister of state. Then this same Yunkish lord has the effrontery to lecture a knight on proper behavior at court.

Groleo is the kind of guy who just can’t get a break. He is one of ASoIaF’s least fortunate minor characters.

Analysis

The Harpy

Who is the Harpy? Hizzy is not a good candidate. He might be a lieutenant, a lesser player in the anit-Dany movement. He might be a dupe or a catspaw. The majority opinion, in this thread and elsewhere, appears to me to favor the latter choice. Would he open the gates to the Volantenes, as the Shavepate claimed in the first Barristan chapter? Possibly yes. Even if he’s not in league with the leaders of Volantis, he might act out of weakness and panic when the huge fleet arrives. Also, he might be told to open the gates. This would be a very bad move by the Meereenese, but it could happen.

Daenerys

Dany wasn’t fair to “the admiral.” This is in contrast to the way she usually treats her servants, freedmen, commanders, etc. Groleo didn’t sign up for any of the experiences he was put through. He was just a sea captain with a family. He didn’t claim to be a military man, never expressed a desire for a “commission.” I understand why the queen became unhappy when he suggested she release the dragons, but the idea wasn’t completely unreasonable. Certainly it had advantages over her command that he build ships. He wasn’t a shipwright, and he didn’t have any wood for the job. With all of this, he was probably the last man who should have been chosen as a hostage.

The death of one hostage is another example of how badly Daenerys handled this business. The “blood for blood” claim is nonsense. Yurkhaz was not required to attend the bloodsport. Surely, more Meereenese than Yunkai’i or sellswords died because of the events in and around Daznak’s Pit. Does this mean many people from the besieging forces should be executed to balance out the bloodshed? The Yunkishmen claim that three men will remain their “guests” until the dragons are killed. That was not part of the original agreement. It is, however, the sort of thing one should expect to occur when one enters into such a one-sided deal as Dany agreed to.

On the other hand, the queen did well with the Dornishmen. She is often criticized for the way she received them. The current chapter does more to undercut the already weak arguments which support this view. One point that is often raised is how she answered the question about why she laughed when she learned Quentyn was a prince. When she told the story of the frog prince, she did so in Ghiscari. But that was a natural thing to do. The question was asked in Ghiscari. Responding in the same language was polite. Similar things are done in other places in the text. Dany is Queen of Meereen and has responsibilities to her Meereenese subjects. Undoubtedly, some of her subjects were having a hard time following the conversation in the Common Tongue.

Quentyn might understand Ghiscari. That would make sense. He was sent to Essos as an emissary. We readers know that Young Griff was learning Meereenese on the trip down the Rhoyne. Dany is not obligated to assume that supplicants in her court don’t understand the language of the court. If one doesn’t, he should tell her so. In this chapter, Ser Barristan thinks that the prince might have some understanding of the language.

Barristan

Selmy is not the world’s most natural politician. He is not hopeless in this field though. He knows when to hold his tongue, and he is good at doing so. He analyzes many situations, for the example that of the Dornishmen, well. In particular, his "Your father keeps his secrets well" comment was right on target. How hard would it have been to let Dany know that she had potential allies earlier? A group of nobles with a contract wasn't necessary as an introduction. Furthermore, politics is not, at its deepest and most fundamental level, just a matter of the kind of sleazeballing and back-stabbing that we see in King’s Landing. Overall, working on the positive side of things is more effective in human affairs, including politics. Ser Barristan can make friends, and he is a widely respected individual.

That last point is important. It is often overlooked. Ser Barristan Selmy, whatever his skill in counseling, planning, and conniving, is a political asset. A claimant to the throne who has the knight riding at her side has a big public relations advantage with nobles and commoners. Of course, this advantage will be badly reduced if Selmy dies before the Targaryen forces reach Westeros. It still might come to something if it is widely known that Barristan the Bold chose to support Daenerys Targaryen. I don’t know that this would help much, but I suppose it could. The Lannisters did pretty well with “the ghost of Renly.”

I find Barristan's thoughts about Daenerys to be a good example of the kind of back-and-forth thinking and acting that characters in ASoIaF often do. Lots of human foibles are shown. A person will do something or state an opinion and then do something else or state another opinion which conflicts badly with the first thing. Sometimes there are clear contradictions that occur very quickly. Catelyn Stark tells Jaime Lannister that neither he nor any member of his family has any honor. Then she releases him after making him promise to act honorably. In this chapter the head of the Queensguard thinks that his queen, like any young girl, "would choose fire every time." This is after he reflects that she put her people first. She definitely didn't choose fire when she married Hizdahr. I'm sure that Cat and Barristan would have ways of explaining their thoughts and actions. I'm not sure I'd find the explanations convincing.

[Maia]

Great analysis, Parwan!

This indicates that Selmy suspects some of the BBs aren't trustworthy.

Well, we already know that they aren't, since Tatters got access to their equipment and current passwords of the guards at Dany's pyramide.

But as regards the Brazen Beasts identities, I imagine that Skahaz knows them, and likely his officers know the identities of men under their command. Otherwise, the system couldn't possibly function.

Also, while the freedmen among the BB are probably more reliable, I don't think that they are incorruptible.

I have been thinking more about Quentyn and his arc. I never found him or it to be boring or unnecessary - IMHO, we need to see non-protagonist PoVs to remind us what normal people are like, nor is it always possible to put a protagonist on the spot where something important is happening without it feeling hugely contrived. And I do think that it was important for us to see things that Quentyn's PoV showed us.

I have reluctantly come to agree to the view that Doran's preparation of this expedition was woefully inadequate. I mean, not a single seasoned traveler in the lot? Even the maester's description struck me as that of an ivory-tower intellectual rather than of somebody actually familiar with Essos from his own experience. And the rest were young, inexperienced knights who haven't as much as left Dorne until being sent on the mission.

And the thing is - yes, it was kind of imprompzu reaction to Viserys's death and the birth of the dragons, but! How come that Doran didn't have somebody keeping tabs on Viserys in the first place, given his importance in Dornish plans?! Surely, Oberyn should have had some contacts in Essos that could and should have been thus employed?

Also, I am pretty sure that the book about dragons that Arianne has been given to read in her captivity, and which "made dragons seem as exciting as newts" had to be Septon Barth's "Unnatural history". And should have gone to Quentyn for obvious reasons.

Finally, given the importance of dragons and the fact that Dorne was already boiling and Doran couldn't expect to keep a lid on it forever, they should have really opted for speed over secrecy, bought a ship outright and sailed it straight to Meeren. I mean, Quentyn leaving Dorne didn't turn out to be such a secret, after all, as Arianne found out anyway.

Another thing is, that Doran apparently thought that Quentyn was much more careful and canny than Arianne, but that's not the case at all. He was equally naive, and I am not even sure that he was better able to keep secrets. It is just that he was allowed to share them with _his_ childhood friends, while Doran deemed Arianne's to be untrustworthy.

OTOH, I disagree that Quentyn should have just turned around and left after the events at the pit. Dorne was sure to enter the war back in Westeros anyway, and events at the Pit actually opened a possibilty for Dany to change her mind on a lot of vital issues. I mean, she became a dragonrider. Hizdahr tried to have Drogon killed. Etc. It was an opportunity for the Dornish. IMHO, instead of staying at court, or, well trying to steal dragons, they should have gone with the searching parties and looked for Dany.

Now, concerning the dragontaming attempt itself, it was foolish and Quentyn should have known it. I mean, what is striking about his PoV, is that he didn't see the wonder or beauty of dragons at all. For him, they were only dangerous monsters, nothing else. I am quite sure that the successful riders will feel drawn to the dragons and will admire them, even if/when feeling afraid. It is not just a matter of courage.

Which is why, BTW I am firmly convinced that Arya will never be a dragonrider. She was never drawn to or amazed by the dragon bones she saw in the basement of the Red Keep, never felt them soaking in the fire, and even thought that "they loved her not".

In fact, I'd feel that it would be cheating if any Starks, apart from Jon for obvious reasons, became a dragonrider. Unless a Targaryen ancestor gets revealed for them in the World Book, that is. And even then I won't like it.

Anyway. I have read the notion that Quentyn "Saved" the dragons by letting them loose, as otherwise Hizdahr would have had them killed... but of course, the reason why Quentyn's password didn't work with the sentries guarding the doors to the vault where dragons were kept was that Skahaz and Barristan were already having their little coup.

As to Barristan - he revealed himself as being unexpectedly much more shrewd in his PoV than impressions from outside and his prior counsel to Dany would suggest. That made me somewhat angry with him.

Sure, he is no political genius, maybe, and I get that he dislikes getting involved in politics, but he could have advised and educated Dany much better than he did! And he failed her badly because of this selfish fastidiousness. As he did Rhaegar before her, it seems. Skahaz is playing him, of course, but something had to be done regadless. Hizdahr couldn't have been left in control.

I also feel that Barristan does Dany a disservice with his "fire versus mud" observation re: Quentyn. While frequently true in general, in this case even if she had been madly attracted to him, she wouldn't have just given up on her freedmen and gone to Dorne!

[BearQueen87]

Barristan II

(The Discarded Knight)

Very nice job Parwan!

I find the title of this POV to be interesting. Discarded means something that has been gotten rid of because it's no longer of value. And yet Selmy is still being considered as a protector of the king; he's still valuable to Skahaz and to Quentyn, and more than that, he's still valuable to Daenerys.

In his last POV he was the "Queensguard" but he had no Queen, this time he's the "Discarded Knight" but he is still one of the most valuable characters in Meereen for Dany.

Hizdahr appears to be an utter weakling. Could this be an act? I don’t think so.

I don't think so either. And I think we see can see this based on how Hizdahr is depicted once he takes the throne to hold court:

King Hizdahar had replaced the bench [of Dany] with two imposing thrones of gilded wood, their tall backs carved into the shape of dragons.

[snip]

No dragon chair can replace a dragon no matter how elaborately it's carved

I think the Harpy and her Sons were surprised at how much support Dany has even after she flew off on Drogon. They've usurped her symbols and adopted them to tie themselves to Dany. This is evident not only in the chairs but also in how Hizdahr is heralded upon entering. His titles include: "Consort to Dragons" (not father to dragons, note...just consort). They are trying to tie themselves to Dany by using her symbols because we know how split Meereen is over the Queen. In this chapter we have men who are yelling that Hizdahr is no king of their and they want their mother. If the Harpy thought everyone would be glad to be rid of Dany and return to Ghiscari culture, they were wrong.

Groleo is the kind of guy who just can’t get a break. He is one of ASoIaF’s least fortunate minor characters.

Agreed. He and Quentyn would have gotten along splendidly.

The Harpy

Who is the Harpy? Hizzy is not a good candidate. He might be a lieutenant, a lesser player in the anit-Dany movement. He might be a dupe or a catspaw. The majority opinion, in this thread and elsewhere, appears to me to favor the latter choice. Would he open the gates to the Volantenes, as the Shavepate claimed in the first Barristan chapter? Possibly yes. Even if he’s not in league with the leaders of Volantis, he might act out of weakness and panic when the huge fleet arrives. Also, he might be told to open the gates. This would be a very bad move by the Meereenese, but it could happen.

Still think it's the Green Grace. The way Hizzy holds court is also telling that he has no real power. We don't hear him speak at all until the head of Groleo is thrown at his feet. And even then, he sputters and stutters. I think Hizzy was chosen by the Harpy to play a part: he's powerful, young, and from a good family. But he's not a mastermind nor politically astute. But he's a good pawn for the Harpy to move around her board.

Daenerys

Dany wasn’t fair to “the admiral.” This is in contrast to the way she usually treats her servants, freedmen, commanders, etc. Groleo didn’t sign up for any of the experiences he was put through. He was just a sea captain with a family. He didn’t claim to be a military man, never expressed a desire for a “commission.” I understand why the queen became unhappy when he suggested she release the dragons, but the idea wasn’t completely unreasonable. Certainly it had advantages over her command that he build ships. He wasn’t a shipwright, and he didn’t have any wood for the job. With all of this, he was probably the last man who should have been chosen as a hostage.

Hind sight is 20/20, I know but Groleo was right about releasing the dragons. Even if it was just to scare people and remind them that she had dragons, they were needed.

On the other hand, the queen did well with the Dornishmen. She is often criticized for the way she received them.

It's worth remembering that Dany did not laugh at Quentyn and even the Prince of Dorne remembers this.

That last point is important. It is often overlooked. Ser Barristan Selmy, whatever his skill in counseling, planning, and conniving, is a political asset. A claimant to the throne who has the knight riding at her side has a big public relations advantage with nobles and commoners. Of course, this advantage will be badly reduced if Selmy dies before the Targaryen forces reach Westeros. It still might come to something if it is widely known that Barristan the Bold chose to support Daenerys Targaryen. I don’t know that this would help much, but I suppose it could. The Lannisters did pretty well with “the ghost of Renly.”

Selmy's use as a symbol and asset is something Tyrion recognizes back in Clash. (paraphrasing): "what would it look like if Barristan the Bold was seen fighting for Stannis or Robb Stark." The littlefolk of Westeros love their heroes and Barristan the Bold is one of their still living heroes. His name commands respect awe. Dany arriving with a knight "out of legend" would be a big deal.

In this chapter the head of the Queensguard thinks that his queen, like any young girl, "would choose fire every time." This is after he reflects that she put her people first. She definitely didn't choose fire when she married Hizdahr.

Agreed. If she wanted "fire" she'd have wed Daario or unleashed the dragons. She doesn't want "mud" because is a young woman still, and that's something Barry knows, but she doesn't need "fire" either. Dany has plenty of fire for two people (in fact that's something she thinks about in ASOS after a fight with Jorah; she describes him as becoming cold and she thinks "I am warm enough for both of us.") Dany doesn't need more fire. I hesitate about saying she needs ice but she needs that sort of element: water. Ice and fire are (obviously) two of the biggest symbols in the series as a whole but ice is also harder than water and it takes fire (normal fire) a long time to melt a block of ice.

I hate to get new world-y because I think ever person has each "element" in them but a lot of ASOIAF is about balance. Fire and Water temper each other. Fire can make water boil, but water can quench fire.

Some Misc Notes

1) There is talk once more about a consort being fit for the Queen of the 7 Kingdoms. Dany has thought the same about Daario and now Quentyn says it about Hizdahr. I have to wonder, what type of consort would the 7K accept for Dany? She's already a bit of an anaomly for them: she was a queen with no king for a long time; she has three dragons, one of which she rides; she spent only her birth in Westoers and nothing more; she rode with the horse lords and became a Khaleesi; and she travels with sell swords, and exile knights/lords, and Unsullied. At this point, is there even such a thing as a "proper consort" for Queen Dany?

2) The Blue Graces claim that Strong Belwas only lived through the poison because of his size. Do we trust them? Barry did not trust them fully in the last of his POV's.

[BearQueen87]

As to Barristan - he revealed himself as being unexpectedly much more shrewd in his PoV than impressions from outside and his prior counsel to Dany would suggest. That made me somewhat angry with him.

Sure, he is no political genius, maybe, and I get that he dislikes getting involved in politics, but he could have advised and educated Dany much better than he did! And he failed her badly because of this selfish fastidiousness. As he did Rhaegar before her, it seems. Skahaz is playing him, of course, but something had to be done regadless. Hizdahr couldn't have been left in control.

I agree. The problem with Selmy isn't that he is inadquate politically, it's that he chooses not to speak because it's not his "role" or place. But with Dany surrounded by so many untrustworthy Meereenesse, it's his duty to speak up.

[SeanF]

I agree. The problem with Selmy isn't that he is inadquate politically, it's that he chooses not to speak because it's not his "role" or place. But with Dany surrounded by so many untrustworthy Meereenesse, it's his duty to speak up.

Some people disappoint when they get promoted. Others prove to be unexpectedly good. Barristan seems to be the latter. When he's put in a position where he has to take decisions, and can't defer to others, he proves to be better than we thought.

[Parwan]

I want to repeat and reinforce what I said above about human foibles. People in real life often fail to talk, think, and act logically. This, clearly, is also true in ASoIaF, sometimes with a vengeance. Characters think or say two things within a short period of time (maybe about a paragraph or so of text) that work strongly against each other, perhaps directly contradict each other. This may indicate indecisiveness or uncertainty. It may show that a person is changing his or her mind. It may be an anomaly that I don't know how to resolve.

....

I also feel that Barristan does Dany a disservice with his "fire versus mud" observation re: Quentyn. While frequently true in general, in this case even if she had been madly attracted to him, she wouldn't have just given up on her freedmen and gone to Dorne!

To me, this isn't just a conflict between what Barristan thinks and what Daenerys would do. It is a contradiction in the knight's thinking: Dany, like all good queens, puts her people first. So, she wed Hizdahr. However, young girls choose fire every time. These two things could both be true only if Dany isn't young. However, she is young. When people in the real world say things like this and I point out the conflict, they sometimes accuse me of pedantry. If they are more reasonable, they say things like, "Well, when I said 'every time' I didn't actually mean 'every time."

...

It's worth remembering that Dany did not laugh at Quentyn and even the Prince of Dorne remembers this.

...

Here we get to the sort of anomaly that I referred to above. I'll jump ahead a bit. I think it's worthwhile because both Quentyn and Barristan say the same peculiar thing. They don't just say that the queen didn't laugh at the young prince. They say that she didn't laugh. That is clearly not correct. Some people, both posters in these forums and characters in the story, believe that Daenerys was making fun of Quentyn. I say this is not true. Quentyn thinks,

"Daenerys never laughed."

Later, we will hear Selmy.

"'She never laughed," said Selmy. 'If you knew her, you would know that.'"

It is strange that both men express themselves in the same inaccurate manner. To me, both of them are correct. Dany didn't mock Quentyn. In strict truth, however, both fellows make false statements.

I wouldn't find all of this important if it weren't for the fact that similar situations abound in the story. I gave an example, involving Catelyn Stark, in my post #11 above.

(Edited for grammar)

[MoIaF]

Barristan II

(The Discarded Knight)

Excellent analysis, thanks Parwan!

Hizdahr appears to be an utter weakling. Could this be an act? I don’t think so.

He is a weakling and is beginning to look more and more like a pawn. However, I do wonder how much he knows about what is going on. Is he a weakling because he's over his head or because he doesn't know what's really going on?

Would he open the gates to the Volantenes, as the Shavepate claimed in the first Barristan chapter? Possibly yes. Even if he’s not in league with the leaders of Volantis, he might act out of weakness and panic when the huge fleet arrives

Agree as well, that Hizzy would have probably open the gates believing he could broker a deal of some sort. It would never have worked.

Also, this just reiterated again why the peace in Meereen was really just a farce. They Yunkai would have used any pretense to break the deal with Dany if they could. And of course if they had really wanted peace they would have told Daenerys about the Volantis fleet.

On the other hand, the queen did well with the Dornishmen. She is often criticized for the way she received them. The current chapter does more to undercut the already weak arguments which support this view. One point that is often raised is how she answered the question about why she laughed when she learned Quentyn was a prince.

"Daenerys never laughed."

Later, we will hear Selmy.

"'She never laughed," said Selmy. 'If you knew her, you would know that.'"

It is strange that both men express themselves in the same inaccurate manner. To me, both of them are correct. Dany didn't mock Quentyn. In strict truth, however, both fellows make false statements.

Dany technically laughed but it was at the irony of the situation. Quentyn was a prince who called himself a frog. It's funny but she wasn't laughing at him.

I have reluctantly come to agree to the view that Doran's preparation of this expedition was woefully inadequate. I mean, not a single seasoned traveler in the lot? Even the maester's description struck me as that of an ivory-tower intellectual rather than of somebody actually familiar with Essos from his own experience. And the rest were young, inexperienced knights who haven't as much as left Dorne until being sent on the mission.

And the thing is - yes, it was kind of imprompzu reaction to Viserys's death and the birth of the dragons, but! How come that Doran didn't have somebody keeping tabs on Viserys in the first place, given his importance in Dornish plans?! Surely, Oberyn should have had some contacts in Essos that could and should have been thus employed?

Also, I am pretty sure that the book about dragons that Arianne has been given to read in her captivity, and which "made dragons seem as exciting as newts" had to be Septon Barth's "Unnatural history". And should have gone to Quentyn for obvious reasons.

Finally, given the importance of dragons and the fact that Dorne was already boiling and Doran couldn't expect to keep a lid on it forever, they should have really opted for speed over secrecy, bought a ship outright and sailed it straight to Meeren. I mean, Quentyn leaving Dorne didn't turn out to be such a secret, after all, as Arianne found out anyway.

Another thing is, that Doran apparently thought that Quentyn was much more careful and canny than Arianne, but that's not the case at all. He was equally naive, and I am not even sure that he was better able to keep secrets. It is just that he was allowed to share them with _his_ childhood friends, while Doran deemed Arianne's to be untrustworthy.

For all his preparations he just didn't understand what he was sending his son into. Where he should have prepared he didn't. And of course as you mentioned the entire missing was poorly conceived.

As to Barristan - he revealed himself as being unexpectedly much more shrewd in his PoV than impressions from outside and his prior counsel to Dany would suggest. That made me somewhat angry with him.

Sure, he is no political genius, maybe, and I get that he dislikes getting involved in politics, but he could have advised and educated Dany much better than he did! And he failed her badly because of this selfish fastidiousness. As he did Rhaegar before her, it seems. Skahaz is playing him, of course, but something had to be done regadless. Hizdahr couldn't have been left in control.

I also feel that Barristan does Dany a disservice with his "fire versus mud" observation re: Quentyn. While frequently true in general, in this case even if she had been madly attracted to him, she wouldn't have just given up on her freedmen and gone to Dorne!

Agree on both points. Even if he didn't completely understand the intricacies of the politics of the Meereen court, he's obviously an intelligent man whose opinion would have still bee useful to Dany.

As to your second point:

Dany doesn't need more fire. I hesitate about saying she needs ice but she needs that sort of element: water. Ice and fire are (obviously) two of the biggest symbols in the series as a whole but ice is also harder than water and it takes fire (normal fire) a long time to melt a block of ice.

I hate to get new world-y because I think ever person has each "element" in them but a lot of ASOIAF is about balance. Fire and Water temper each other. Fire can make water boil, but water can quench fire.

You're right the story is about balance. Finding balance within oneself, within the world, etc. I'm an old romantic so I've always though that one of the meaning of ASOIAF is the balance between a man and a woman (i.e. Jon and Dany).

[BearQueen87]

Excellent analysis, thanks Parwan!

He is a weakling and is beginning to look more and more like a pawn. However, I do wonder how much he knows about what is going on. Is he a weakling because he's over his head or because he doesn't know what's really going on?

I'm wondering that too because where is the Green Grace right now? She hasn't appeared in awhile.

You're right the story is about balance. Finding balance within oneself, within the world, etc. I'm an old romantic so I've always though that one of the meaning of ASOIAF is the balance between a man and a woman (i.e. Jon and Dany).

Agreed--though you know where my loyalty lies with regards to our Queen ;)

But look at the most successful marriage in ASOIAF: Ned and Cat. North/South, prefer quiet life/politically savvy, old gods/new gods. They balance each other.

[Malik Ambar]

hey could you guys help out here?

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/118099-did-benerro-make-up-his-aar-sermons-in-volantis/

So are the red priests opportunists or legit?

[Kyoshi]

Great analysis, Parwan! Thanks! I haven't had time to read the chapter yet; will comment as soon as I have.