Eddard Stark and honor (And other thoughts)

[Lithon]

Hello!

This would be my first post on this amazing forum of ice and fire! I went on here few times to read posts but never posted anything myself until now.

I have finished 64% of GOT. Still lots to go. But I am an avid follower of the TV show! So far from what I read and saw from/on Ned's reactions and feelings, I only keep getting amazed by how complex of a person he is. I keep trying to find what is wrong and good about him. GRRM loves grey characters. But is Ned a grey one? I lean more towards the idea that he is just pure good compared to the others. Is it because he killed his enemies? Would that made him bad? I am writing a fantasy/SciFi story myself. But I always keep struggling of being unfair in how I create my characters.

As for Ned and honor, does sticking to one's honor means you are stupid? I mean having faith in something and believing in morals does not make you stupid. I guess A Song of Ice and Fire really tells a story of a "believable" fantasy drama after all. Not just another fantasy -my respect to the other obvious good ones-.

How can you measure if someone is good or bad? In real life you can't do that easily or even at all. This is one of the reasons that laws exists, in my opinion, to "guide" others to pass judgment on others as they see fit.

I know this is a super-mixed-topics post lol But there you go. My first collective public feelings of GOT :crying: From what I have read so far lol Even I know almost everything. But I know nothing like many others :frown5:

[Facha Martell]

I think it's impossible to judge if someone is good or evil. Jaime Lannister is evil in the eyes of Catelyn Tully, but it's the greatest man alive in Cersei's perspective.

I try to understand what moves and motivates the actions of every character, and the judge if that thing it's considered good o bad by my own standards.

For example, what moves Ned Stark is obviously honor. Few people in westeros can deny that. In my own standards it's good to be honoured but not at every cost...Or for example, Littlefinger's motivations are greed and resentment . I really like his mind and i can agree with some of his actions, but that's just not ok with my own standards.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Sticking to your honor does not make you stupid, that is true. What is a bit naive, though, it believing that others will play by those same rules. Ned is an honourable man, but he needs to reallise that not everyone around him is..

All I can further say is, read the remainder of the book, as Ned, his honour, and his actions, make more sense the further you come :) have fun :) ;)

And welcome to the forums! :D

[melx]

"As for Ned and honor, does sticking to one's honor means you are stupid?"

Ned had no honor and he was stupid!

1. no honor

going 7 on 3 is not honorable (Ser Arthur Dayne vs Smiling Knight was)

2. stupid

living kingdom to drunken fool was stupid

3.no honor

it seems that dead king Aerys children were not enough for him, so he wanted Jaime bastards dead too

4.no honor

he used to have taste for war, starting one and failing to start another:

first war against

king Aerys, yes king was mad but people of the realm had it good(what is few dead lords

against '"good of the people")

second he tried to start was war between usurper Robert and Lannisters (if he told Robert about J & C)

5. stupid

he allowed Night's watch to become very weak

+

game playing aspects..... stupidity

all the lies ..... no honor

[Lithon]

@Facha Martell

I get what you mean . I have the same thoughts too. WELL Many thoughts lol

[Lithon]

@Rhaenys_Targaryen

I agree that Ned was a bit naïve with just believing that others would be honorable. But maybe he does know that people would not be honorable as him, and he just doesn't care lol

And thanks!

How can one reply to a certain person? Quoting doesn't seem to work...

[Lithon]

@melx

The Targaryen children were not his fault! LOL! Are you serious? lol

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

@Rhaenys_Targaryen

I agree that Ned was a bit naïve with just believing that others would be honorable. But maybe he does know that people would not be honorable as him, and he just doesn't care lol

And thanks!

How can one reply to a certain person? Quoting doesn't seem to work...

Hit the quote or multiquote button. If you use multiquote, a small box will appear in the lower corner of the screen, where you have to click after you've selected all multiquotes you whish to reply to.

If you are on mobile, you can only hit the quote button (by first tapping on the post once, to make the quote button appear).

That should work..

[Lithon]

Hit the quote or multiquote button. If you use multiquote, a small box will appear in the lower corner of the screen, where you have to click after you've selected all multiquotes you whish to reply to.

If you are on mobile, you can only hit the quote button (by first tapping on the post once, to make the quote button appear).

That should work..

It works now! Thank you!

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

Ned Stark was honorable. To the point of stupidity? Well, in that he did not take Renly's advice and help when Robert was dying, yes. When he gave Cersei fair warning to get her kids and herself out of King's Landing before he told Robert of her treachery, yep, honorable and dumb.

Remember what Aemon said to Jon Snow at the Wall? They were talking about Ned Stark and if he would put his honor above love? Jon thought his father would always do what was right. Jon was wrong about that. Ned put his honor aside so that Sansa and Arya might live. He did not care if he died without honor as long as his children lived. He allowed his house to be dishonored to save his daughters. That is a very noble and honorable deed. I think many people believe that the world is a mirror and it reflects back upon us what we put out there. Not so. We are forever disappointed and dismayed as well as down right shocked when we discover that other people do not think as we do that righteousness and justice should win the day. Perhaps in a perfect world. George Martin doesn't write about perfect worlds or perfect people. He only tells us of humans who are fallible and multifaceted. It is what makes the characters of Westeros and beyond so very, very interesting. Easy to love and hate at the same time. Whether you love them or hate them, you have to admit, they are most compelling.

[Lithon]

Ned Stark was honorable. To the point of stupidity? Well, in that he did not take Renly's advice and help when Robert was dying, yes. When he gave Cersei fair warning to get her kids and herself out of King's Landing before he told Robert of her treachery, yep, honorable and dumb.

Remember what Aemon said to Jon Snow at the Wall? They were talking about Ned Stark and if he would put his honor above love? Jon thought his father would always do what was right. Jon was wrong about that. Ned put his honor aside so that Sansa and Arya might live. He did not care if he died without honor as long as his children lived. He allowed his house to be dishonored to save his daughters. That is a very noble and honorable deed. I think many people believe that the world is a mirror and it reflects back upon us what we put out there. Not so. We are forever disappointed and dismayed as well as down right shocked when we discover that other people do not think as we do that righteousness and justice should win the day. Perhaps in a perfect world. George Martin doesn't write about perfect worlds or perfect people. He only tells us of humans who are fallible and multifaceted. It is what makes the characters of Westeros and beyond so very, very interesting. Easy to love and hate at the same time. Whether you love them or hate them, you have to admit, they are most compelling.

Wow. Awesome. Thanks. I always try to remember that Ned player his role and it ended. Everyone has his role in the great scheme of things, even if they don't believe that. The world of ice and fire has "Gods" that exist and maybe they have control over the outcome of anything.

[Prince of the North]

Ned Stark was honorable. To the point of stupidity? Well, in that he did not take Renly's advice and help when Robert was dying, yes. When he gave Cersei fair warning to get her kids and herself out of King's Landing before he told Robert of her treachery, yep, honorable and dumb.

Remember what Aemon said to Jon Snow at the Wall? They were talking about Ned Stark and if he would put his honor above love? Jon thought his father would always do what was right. Jon was wrong about that. Ned put his honor aside so that Sansa and Arya might live. He did not care if he died without honor as long as his children lived. He allowed his house to be dishonored to save his daughters. That is a very noble and honorable deed. I think many people believe that the world is a mirror and it reflects back upon us what we put out there. Not so. We are forever disappointed and dismayed as well as down right shocked when we discover that other people do not think as we do that righteousness and justice should win the day. Perhaps in a perfect world. George Martin doesn't write about perfect worlds or perfect people. He only tells us of humans who are fallible and multifaceted. It is what makes the characters of Westeros and beyond so very, very interesting. Easy to love and hate at the same time. Whether you love them or hate them, you have to admit, they are most compelling.

I completely agree! I think it's important to remember that Ned wasn't so much stupid in his dealings with the Lannisters and Littlefinger as he was betrayed - not once but twice! When he warned Cercei of what was coming in order for her to be able to escape with her innocent children Ned had already gotten the ball rolling on buying the Gold cloaks or was planning to. If he hadn't been betrayed by Littlefinger he would have had the upper hand there. So, you see, he had a good plan but he trusted the wrong person (who, if you recall, was vouched for by his wife). Because someone is able to be betrayed doesn't make them stupid.

Then, as you say, Ned confessed to treason/lied in order to save his daughters and be allowed to take the Black. Then he was betrayed the second time by the Lannisters and executed. Of course, it was no surprise that Ned would lie for this reason. If you believe R+L=J (as I do), then he'd already set a precedent by lying to the world that he'd fathered a bastard in order to protect yet another innocent child ;)

In the end, I think Ned Stark is often unfairly judged by those who have the benefit of hindsight (that he, of course, couldn't have).

[WinterKraken]

"As for Ned and honor, does sticking to one's honor means you are stupid?"

Ned had no honor and he was stupid!

1. no honor

going 7 on 3 is not honorable (Ser Arthur Dayne vs Smiling Knight was)

2. stupid

living kingdom to drunken fool was stupid

3.no honor

it seems that dead king Aerys children were not enough for him, so he wanted Jaime bastards dead too

4.no honor

he used to have taste for war, starting one and failing to start another:

first war against

king Aerys, yes king was mad but people of the realm had it good(what is few dead lords

against '"good of the people")

second he tried to start was war between usurper Robert and Lannisters (if he told Robert about J & C)

5. stupid

he allowed Night's watch to become very weak

+

game playing aspects..... stupidity

all the lies ..... no honor

I take that as trolling. :cheers:

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

I completely agree! I think it's important to remember that Ned wasn't so much stupid in his dealings with the Lannisters and Littlefinger as he was betrayed - not once but twice! When he warned Cercei of what was coming in order for her to be able to escape with her innocent children Ned had already gotten the ball rolling on buying the Gold cloaks or was planning to. If he hadn't been betrayed by Littlefinger he would have had the upper hand there. So, you see, he had a good plan but he trusted the wrong person (who, if you recall, was vouched for by his wife). Because someone is able to be betrayed doesn't make them stupid.

Then, as you say, Ned confessed to treason/lied in order to save his daughters and be allowed to take the Black. Then he was betrayed the second time by the Lannisters and executed. Of course, it was no surprise that Ned would lie for this reason. If you believe R+L=J (as I do), then he'd already set a precedent by lying to the world that he'd fathered a bastard in order to protect yet another innocent child ;)

In the end, I think Ned Stark is often unfairly judged by those who have the benefit of hindsight (that he, of course, couldn't have).

I don't think its accurate to say he was betrayed by the Lannisters. Joff is technically considered a Baratheon, 1st of his name. I know that us readers know the truth about his true lineage, but many still doubt or choose to believe he is Robert's true born son. It was not the Lannister plan to have Eddard lose his head that day, it was Joff's plan to make a statement about how he would run the Kingdom as its new King. Treacherous little bastard Joff was.

I don't think I'm judging Eddard unfairly. He is one of my favorite characters. He laid aside his honor for his sister's sake even at the cost of breaking his wife's heart and betraying his friend Robert. He protected his honor to a point, but never to the point where he would choose it over his family. To his unfortunate decision to trust Littlefinger, he did so only because of his wife. His own instincts were not to trust him and had he followed those instincts he would have been better served.

You believe he had a good plan, and I suppose Ned believed that also. His plan was too dependent on trusting Littlefinger. No good plan is contingent on trusting one person so blindly. Ned was a veteran of many battles, of Robert's Rebellion, of the Greyjoy Rebellion. There is nothing a soldier knows better than taking action when it is crucial makes all the difference. Timing is everything.

Ned Stark chose to honor his friend Robert when honoring Robert was useless. Robert was beyond the aid of Ned's honor. Ned held the belief that other people would honor what a dead King signed. Again, a tactical error on his part. He did not take Cersei at her word. When confronted, she asked him "what of my wrath?" He underestimated Cersei and in so doing gave her the time to scheme and draw her forces around her. A sitting Queen has more power at her disposal than someone who holds the truth in his hand and chooses not to use it and then having learned the truth, tells the wrong person that he knows it!

Ned's honor was a bastion of his strength and character, it was integral to who he was. It is why so many admired him, were willing to follow him, believe in him, respect him and love him, go to war for him. Ned's honor was also his undoing. He belonged in a time where chivalry and honor held a place in the world. He instilled that sense of honor in his sons and daughters. This is one of the reasons his children have such a hard time adjusting to life outside of Winterfell without their parents. The rest of the world hasn't the honor code that the Starks hold themselves too. Harsh lessons being learned by all of them.

Ned should have been ready for a betrayal. He trusted the wrong person and his timing was way off the mark. Had he waited and allowed Tywin Lannister to take the Iron Throne the day King's Landing was sacked, do you think House Lannister would have yielded that throne to Robert? No, they would not. Jaime moved because Eddard's strength was with him. Eddard would have slain Jaime if he had to to win that throne for Robert. Timing again played its part. Honor plays a part and it is a good and noble thing. To quote a famous Queen "When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die."

[Prince of the North]

Um...for the record, I did say I completely agreed with what you wrote...but alright. :)

I don't think its accurate to say he was betrayed by the Lannisters. Joff is technically considered a Baratheon, 1st of his name. I know that us readers know the truth about his true lineage, but many still doubt or choose to believe he is Robert's true born son. It was not the Lannister plan to have Eddard lose his head that day, it was Joff's plan to make a statement about how he would run the Kingdom as its new King. Treacherous little bastard Joff was.

Good point. The world thought Joff was a Baratheon but I don't think it's incorrect to say that Cercei had far more influence over Joff than Robert ever did. That was the second betrayal however. The first betrayal was perpetrated by Littlefinger going to Cercei with Ned's plan to have him be the go-between to buy the Gold Cloak's loyalty, giving her the ability to buy their loyalty instead.

I don't think I'm judging Eddard unfairly. He is one of my favorite characters. He laid aside his honor for his sister's sake even at the cost of breaking his wife's heart and betraying his friend Robert. He protected his honor to a point, but never to the point where he would choose it over his family. To his unfortunate decision to trust Littlefinger, he did so only because of his wife. His own instincts were not to trust him and had he followed those instincts he would have been better served.

No, you're not and I didn't mean you. Once again, we're in complete agreement on Ned. I do however stand by my statement when it comes to many who do judge Ned harshly because they happen to know how things turned out (i.e. using 20-20 hindsight) when he, of course, could not.

You believe he had a good plan, and I suppose Ned believed that also. His plan was too dependent on trusting Littlefinger. No good plan is contingent on trusting one person so blindly. Ned was a veteran of many battles, of Robert's Rebellion, of the Greyjoy Rebellion. There is nothing a soldier knows better than taking action when it is crucial makes all the difference. Timing is everything.

No, Ned actually did have a good plan. Secretly buying the Gold Cloaks was a great plan. As you say, he trusted Littlefinger because his wife, whom he also trusts (and please nobody bring up Jon because keeping that secret from her was a kindness and very smart - not distrustful), trusted Littlefinger. Littlefinger betrayed them all - that's what he does. Again, because someone is able to be betrayed does not make them stupid (not saying you think this). As for timing, Ned did act with good timing. He would have had the backing of the Gold Cloaks in place when he made his move against Cercei...if he hadn't been betrayed.

Ned Stark chose to honor his friend Robert when honoring Robert was useless. Robert was beyond the aid of Ned's honor. Ned held the belief that other people would honor what a dead King signed. Again, a tactical error on his part. He did not take Cersei at her word. When confronted, she asked him "what of my wrath?" He underestimated Cersei and in so doing gave her the time to scheme and draw her forces around her. A sitting Queen has more power at her disposal than someone who holds the truth in his hand and chooses not to use it and then having learned the truth, tells the wrong person that he knows it!

Well, not really. When Ned confronted and warned Cercei it didn't give her any tactical advantage. The only thing that did that was her finding out Ned was trying to buy the Gold Cloaks. Cercei having more time wouldn't have helped...well, anything. Again, it all comes back to Littlefinger's betrayal of Catelyn's and Ned's trust.

Ned's honor was a bastion of his strength and character, it was integral to who he was. It is why so many admired him, were willing to follow him, believe in him, respect him and love him, go to war for him. Ned's honor was also his undoing. He belonged in a time where chivalry and honor held a place in the world. He instilled that sense of honor in his sons and daughters. This is one of the reasons his children have such a hard time adjusting to life outside of Winterfell without their parents. The rest of the world hasn't the honor code that the Starks hold themselves too. Harsh lessons being learned by all of them.

Completely agreed. Martin has done a masterful job of showing us a world in ASoIaF where things like honor are supposedly highly valued...but they're really not. There really are no rules and, of course, to the victor goes the spoils and, even more importantly, the ability to write the histories ;)

Ned should have been ready for a betrayal. He trusted the wrong person and his timing was way off the mark. Had he waited and allowed Tywin Lannister to take the Iron Throne the day King's Landing was sacked, do you think House Lannister would have yielded that throne to Robert? No, they would not. Jaime moved because Eddard's strength was with him. Eddard would have slain Jaime if he had to to win that throne for Robert. Timing again played its part. Honor plays a part and it is a good and noble thing. To quote a famous Queen "When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die."

I can't agree with you here. I think this is judging with the benefit of hindsight that, realistically, Ned wouldn't have (or we'd think it was horrible writing). I think the real mistake was made in allowing the fence-sitting Lannisters to join the winning side the way they did, not sending Jaime to the Wall, marrying Robert to Cercei, etc. But that's me judging with the benefit of hindsight, too. The reason those things were done was because the kingdom had just been wracked with civil war and they were trying to make a peace in the best way they knew how.

I hope I don't come across like I'm really arguing with you because I'm not. I think we are pretty much completely agreed on good ol' Ned but for maybe a few minor details/interpretations :)

[Leave it to your goat]

But is Ned a grey one? I lean more towards the idea that he is just pure good compared to the others. Is it because he killed his enemies? Would that made him bad?

Depends on who you ask... If you take the story at face value, some would say that Ned fathering a bastard makes him a bit of a grey character. I'm not sure if you're familiar with all the ___ + ___ = J theories, but the general thought there is that Ned never betrayed his marriage vows, and he's secretly pretending that Jon is his bastard son. I subscribe to one such theory as well, so I pretty much think that Ned is purely good. His decisions may not always have been smart but his motivations are almost always based on honor.

As for Ned and honor, does sticking to one's honor means you are stupid?

In this case, I think so. Ned had a multitude of options after finding out the truth about Cersei's children. But his knee-jerk reaction to take the most "honorable" course of action and warn her before telling Robert was just plain stupid. It caused the death of the king, the downfall of House Stark, his own death and those of his family members, and a war that took tens of thousans of lives. When you're in that kind of position, you can't just blindly choose honor without considering the ramifications of your actions. And that's what Ned did.

So I think of Ned as a supremely honorable man, but not necessarily a wise one.

[Lithon]

Depends on who you ask... If you take the story at face value, some would say that Ned fathering a bastard makes him a bit of a grey character. I'm not sure if you're familiar with all the ___ + ___ = J theories, but the general thought there is that Ned never betrayed his marriage vows, and he's secretly pretending that Jon is his bastard son. I subscribe to one such theory as well, so I pretty much think that Ned is purely good. His decisions may not always have been smart but his motivations are almost always based on honor.

In this case, I think so. Ned had a multitude of options after finding out the truth about Cersei's children. But his knee-jerk reaction to take the most "honorable" course of action and warn her before telling Robert was just plain stupid. It caused the death of the king, the downfall of House Stark, his own death and those of his family members, and a war that took tens of thousans of lives. When you're in that kind of position, you can't just blindly choose honor without considering the ramifications of your actions. And that's what Ned did.

So I think of Ned as a supremely honorable man, but not necessarily a wise one.

Cool! I agree with everything you said! Also I have started thinking that there is an evidence on who might be on next on Martin's chopping list. As famously known, he really hates just Good OR Evil characters, anyone character who has unbalanced morals will get her/him self killed. Because Ned is more good than bad (just to stay away from perfectness), he got himself killed. Many others too. And the opposite is correct. If you are more bad than good you will die. A survivor in A song of Ice and Fire is someone can control his morals and use them. Not the opposite.

[Alysanne Baelish]

Ned was honourable and naive. He could have still acted honourably according to his code of honour, but at the very least have secured the safety of his daughters before his actions. Or maybe listened to Littlefinger & Varys in being discreet about his actions and searching around. I'm re-reading AGOT at the moment and am just cringing at some of the things he does which are just stupid.

[Lithon]

Ned was honourable and naive. He could have still acted honourably according to his code of honour, but at the very least have secured the safety of his daughters before his actions. Or maybe listened to Littlefinger & Varys in being discreet about his actions and searching around. I'm re-reading AGOT at the moment and am just cringing at some of the things he does which are just stupid.

Yeah. But these are his morals I guess lol. But to succeed in something critical you don't need vocal, correct.

[Lithon]

For some reason my reply to you Alysanne Baelish got duplicated twice and I cannot delete this post lol