Eddard Stark and honor (And other thoughts)

[Eddard Stark is online]

As for Ned and honor, does sticking to one's honor means you are stupid? I mean having faith in something and believing in morals does not make you stupid. I guess A Song of Ice and Fire really tells a story of a "believable" fantasy drama after all. Not just another fantasy -my respect to the other obvious good ones-.

Does sticking to one's honour make you stupid? I would say 'No'. After all, if we all lived by that rule then what sort of a people would we be? But does assuming somebody, who you know to be political and self-serving, will behave as honourably as you would when cornered make you naive? Yes. And while it's naive, I would also say it's in keeping with his character. It's human nature that we expect other people to think, feel and behave as we do.

[Lithon]

Does sticking to one's honour make you stupid? I would say 'No'. After all, if we all lived by that rule then what sort of a people would we be? But does assuming somebody, who you know to be political and self-serving, will behave as honourably as you would when cornered make you naive? Yes. And while it's naive, I would also say it's in keeping with his character. It's human nature that we expect other people to think, feel and behave as we do.

That's why I feel sad about Ned. His emotions and decisions felt so real and true to me. His heart was true to his beliefs.

[dopplerdog]

Stupid, no. Naive, definitely.

If Ned realised what his naive actions would lead to maybe he would have acted differently. Tywin would have been neutralised if Ned had seized the initiative and Cersei and her kids had been held prisoners at Kings Landing. But hindsight gives you 20/20 vision.

[Bran the Broken </3]

"As for Ned and honor, does sticking to one's honor means you are stupid?"

Ned had no honor and he was stupid!

1. no honor

going 7 on 3 is not honorable (Ser Arthur Dayne vs Smiling Knight was)

2. stupid

living kingdom to drunken fool was stupid

3.no honor

it seems that dead king Aerys children were not enough for him, so he wanted Jaime bastards dead too

4.no honor

he used to have taste for war, starting one and failing to start another:

first war against

king Aerys, yes king was mad but people of the realm had it good(what is few dead lords

against '"good of the people")

second he tried to start was war between usurper Robert and Lannisters (if he told Robert about J & C)

5. stupid

he allowed Night's watch to become very weak

+

game playing aspects..... stupidity

all the lies ..... no honor

What? WHAT? Are you serious? I cannot and will not call your opinion stupid because you are entitled to it but some of the facts quoted are completely fictional.

1. Ned didn't like going 7 on 3 but any honorable solider would push on ahead and Ned was in the middle of war. This incident haunts him later in life which clearly shows that the man had a strong moral conscience which is a base requirement for honor.

2. He didn't leave (I'm assuming you mean leave since he cannot "live" the kingdom, can he?) the Kingdom to Robert. Robert raised the rebellion and it was his by rights.

3. Ned was disgusted by the Targ infants being put to the sword (or put to the wall in the case of Aemon), infact that was one of the reasons he hated the Lannisters. He goes as far as giving up Handship in his attempt to save Dany. And in case you didn't notice, Ned took special efforts to save the Lannister/Baratheon bastards. It got him killed, if you hadn't noticed.

4. The Rebellion against Aerys was started by Robert. Killing the Lords is never good for the people. It would instigate political unease which always screws the lives of people and that was exactly why nearly every part of Westeros heeded Robert's call for rebellion.

And the Lannisters were disturbing the King's Peace. It was his duty as the Hand to restore it. He didn't cause a war there. He followed procedure and protocol.

5. If you hadn't noticed, THE NIGHT'S WATCH LOVED NED. No other Lord commanded the kind of respect that Ned did among the NW. He extended what help he could to them and was always open to helping them when they needed.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

[gabyta07]

First time reading the books...60% read, and permit me to rant after reading Eddard's chapter

I watch the tv show, but it had never came into my mind until this, how naive and stupid is Ned Stark

I do understand his honor and so on and on.

But its just like he doesnt think, he assumes that all ppl have honor even when they give him evidence that they do not.

Littlefinger even told him, do not trust anyone, but its not like he didnt' listen to his advice.

I mean who goes to his enemy, who already killed a friend of yours and even tried to kill your son, and tell them, "I know your secret, the one you have killed for to keep"

A really dumb move of an honorable person.

Also he is an idiot of not making an alliance with the Tyrell anyhow, after he blew up everything, the intelligent thing would have make an alliance with the Lannister's, Cersei offered one, and him and his stupid honor, had to declined.

It's like he is totally blind, even Catalyn told him that Robert was not the same.

Ned just killed his friend and himself from this, and does he really think, a man so proud as Robert is going to accept the truth?

Or that Cersei won't do anything to try to stop him from spilling out the beans.

Is he that arrogant?

I really don't know if the winter froze the Stark's brains, but really, from watching the show and right now seeing Sansa and Ned.

It's no wonder if they get killed, after all it would be so easy.

Ok, now I'll try to finish with Dany who I can't stand btw

Ps. Just bought a Stark t-shirt, and I wonder if I didn't make a mistake, maybe I should have bought a Lannister one, or even a tyrell, right now I want to be more in the "intelligent " side than the "good, honorable" side of things.

[TickTak7]

First time reading the books...60% read, and permit me to rant after reading Eddard's chapter

I watch the tv show, but it had never came into my mind until this, how naive and stupid is Ned Stark

I do understand his honor and so on and on.

But its just like he doesnt think, he assumes that all ppl have honor even when they give him evidence that they do not.

Littlefinger even told him, do not trust anyone, but its not like he didnt' listen to his advice.

I mean who goes to his enemy, who already killed a friend of yours and even tried to kill your son, and tell them, "I know your secret, the one you have killed for to keep"

A really dumb move of an honorable person.

I think you have to remember that Ned is a Northerner.

He was rarely in the South - he hadn't returned since Robert's Rebellion.

He had no idea what King's Landing was like, or even that a "Game" of Thrones was being played. He alludes a few times early on in his chapters after Robert's offer, that he has no business being south in that world.

The cut-throat nature of the capital, was totally foreign to him, and that's where his naive side showed.

[gabyta07]

I think you have to remember that Ned is a Northerner.

He was rarely in the South - he hadn't returned since Robert's Rebellion.

He had no idea what King's Landing was like, or even that a "Game" of Thrones was being played. He alludes a few times early on in his chapters after Robert's offer, that he has no business being south in that world.

The cut-throat nature of the capital, was totally foreign to him, and that's where his naive side showed.

Yes, totally agree...but then he had no business being the King's Hand, much less trying to "play" the game by "his" rules.

Several times, he gets warned, several times they offered him an out.

And maybe I am confused, but the Bolton's and the Frey's are from the North too, no? As it seems, from Catlyn's pov, they are ppl who are not to trust, so probably they are not honorable

As I am already in the 75% of the book, I keep asking myself, why? Not only was he stupid and naive, but Robert was already dead, he should have left for the north, let the Lannister reign, after all Robert was making a muck of things.

Robert should have never gotten the crown, if the Lannisters wanted power, let them have it, after all he is King of the north, too far away for the Lannisters to care, and as the wilding told Bran, they were more pressing matters in the north (of course Ned knew nothing about)

Robert got the crown bc of a war, let's just say the Lannisters got the crown bc they were more cunning, its not like one had more royal blood than the other. Heck, not even Danny seems to have more royal blood than them.

So all the honor and all that, for someone who was already decaying, not even for the kingdom, bc Ned had already been warned that Stannis was terrible as a king. Plus he had his daughters and sons to think about, which he didn't do.

Even the fact that Sansa went to the queen, was his fault, all for the sake, to keep her sheltered from a life she would never have, bc songs do not exist.

Anyhow, right now, I am on Varys side, what is the best for the kingdom? To keep things peaceful, the best are the Lannisters, until a better one comes up.

[sweetsunray]

Yes, totally agree...but then he had no business being the King's Hand, much less trying to "play" the game by "his" rules.

Several times, he gets warned, several times they offered him an out.

And maybe I am confused, but the Bolton's and the Frey's are from the North too, no? As it seems, from Catlyn's pov, they are ppl who are not to trust, so probably they are not honorable

As I am already in the 75% of the book, I keep asking myself, why? Not only was he stupid and naive, but Robert was already dead, he should have left for the north, let the Lannister reign, after all Robert was making a muck of things.

Robert should have never gotten the crown, if the Lannisters wanted power, let them have it, after all he is King of the north, too far away for the Lannisters to care, and as the wilding told Bran, they were more pressing matters in the north (of course Ned knew nothing about)

Robert got the crown bc of a war, let's just say the Lannisters got the crown bc they were more cunning, its not like one had more royal blood than the other. Heck, not even Danny seems to have more royal blood than them.

So all the honor and all that, for someone who was already decaying, not even for the kingdom, bc Ned had already been warned that Stannis was terrible as a king. Plus he had his daughters and sons to think about, which he didn't do.

Even the fact that Sansa went to the queen, was his fault, all for the sake, to keep her sheltered from a life she would never have, bc songs do not exist.

Anyhow, right now, I am on Varys side, what is the best for the kingdom? To keep things peaceful, the best are the Lannisters, until a better one comes up.

Actually Robert has Targ blood, the Lannisters don't. So, yes, Robert had more royal blood than the Lannister, which was the reason they put Robert forward as king. And the Lannisters only came in at the end. If you're going to war and some third house joins last minute without any cost for their own lives, are you gonna give it to them? Of course not.

Ned prepared for his daughters to go North. And he explained it to Sansa, knowing full well what Sansa had witnessed at the Trident. Sansa going to the queen who demanded her wolf to be killed is on Sansa, not Ned.

[gabyta07]

Actually Robert has Targ blood, the Lannisters don't. So, yes, Robert had more royal blood than the Lannister, which was the reason they put Robert forward as king. And the Lannisters only came in at the end. If you're going to war and some third house joins last minute without any cost for their own lives, are you gonna give it to them? Of course not.

Ned prepared for his daughters to go North. And he explained it to Sansa, knowing full well what Sansa had witnessed at the Trident. Sansa going to the queen who demanded her wolf to be killed is on Sansa, not Ned.

But that's exactly what I am saying...who are the Targ's to the 7 kingdoms...they are conqueres, they were some ppl, who escaped their island, to reign Dragonstone. So I would say, every house that reigned 300 y ago, has as much right to the throne that any Targ or close relationship. T

This is the same reason why Danny annoys me...so her family reigned for 300 y, so what?

Did the gods look at them favorably? Maybe

But personally I think any of them had the same chance, what I am trying to say, one doesn't have more royal blood than the other.

Unless that person really believes in the gods and thinks just like our old kings that they were put there for a reason...anyhow, GRRM has said that these gods can be real or not.

IMO that is why, everyone is fighting for the throne, there's nothing that says "you have more right to it than me"

As for Sansa, she was sheltered, she kept being sheltered, Ned was too busy chasing for a ghost.

Yes, the queen killed Lady, but since Sansa was so sheltered, to keep with the idea, that everything was fairy tale real, she blamed her sister (which is not odd, take teenagers examples, their new boy idol is put in prsion bc he is a drug addict or something like that...and they keep denying, "No, he is good, someone tricked him")

Ned never sat down with her and told her, why she couldn't trust the queen, why Joffrey although handsome was not a good person, he let her keep having a twisted version of the world.

He even goes and talks to Arya about it, but never to Sansa about the lying for the sake of Joffrey, who ended up killing Lady.

In fact what I could notice, its that there was no relationship btw Sansa and Ned, she didn't trust her father...which is so different with Arya...Arya all the time is thinking "I have to get to father, father would make things better..." and things like that, while Sansa the first thing she thought was going to the queen, she never went and confide to her father, all her relations were done by talking to Janey or the Septa.

So yeah, I put the blame on Ned and Catlyn for leaving their daughter to the Septa, for letting her grow up to be selfish, for never talking to her.