Facha Martell

Why did Tyrion lie?

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^ Actually you explained that rather well, I hadn't thought of it from that perspective but you clearly nailed it.


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he lied, not to hurt jamie by revealing the killer of his son, but to prove that jamie didn't know tyrion any better than tyrion had known jamie

This is really cool man!

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Despite any rhyme or reason behind Tyrion's lie, I think that was the point in the book where I stopped liking him. Not only did he kill his father, but he is lying about killing his nephew too. Almost all of him has given way to bitterness and resentment at that point, and it just continues in aDwD.
And a little bit of tinfoil; I also felt like Jamie was lying about Tysha then as well. He wanted to make Tyrion feel better, not only by saving him from being punished for a crime he knew he didn't commit, but also by trying to make him feel loved. It really backfired. I think Tyrion knew deep down that Jamie was lying too, and wanted to hurt him as much as Jamie's lie had unintentionally hurt Tyrion.

Edited by King Tommen Baratheon

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When Jaime sets him free from his cell and tells him the truth about Tysha, i understand Tyrion was under a lot of confusion and anger but, ¿why did he lie about killing Joffrey?
There's zero political/emotional profit in that, and i don't think Jaime deserved that after saving his life... 
In the other hand, ¿do you think Jaime believed him? 

I think Tyrion lied because he wanted some vengeance on jaime for not telling him the truth about Tysha for so long,and also at that point Tyrion simply didn't care,I think Jaime is still skeptical and not sure whether to believe him or not,but I think Jaime is more inclined to the opinion that Tyrion murdered Joffrey Edited by Yosaef Targaryen

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It does seem backward at first glance, because Jaime is confessing to a truth about Tysha, knowing how Tyrion was hurt over believing that Tysha never loved him and was just a whore. In a way he wants his brother to know that she did love him; that she was genuine.

 

But Jaime didn't seem fully aware how Tyrion was involved in raping Tysha, and when he told the lie at the time Jaime had no idea his father planned to have her raped by all his men-at-arms. Tyrion has the same ruthless vindictiveness as Tywin. This vindictiveness was what propelled him to rape Tysha last, as his father told him, and give her the golden coin. And for years he kept guilt for that at bay, by telling himself how she had deserved it, had betrayed him, etc. So, when Jaime tells the truth to Tyrion, suddenly he has to face he watched and let the girl who loved him be raped by a whole garisson and him on top of it. Tyrion could not have stopped his father or the garisson, but raping her himself was his own choice. But he still can't face the fact that in the end, it wasn't Tysha who betrayed him, but he who betrayed her with the act. He believed the worst of her. It's easier to take all that self-hatred and aim it at his father and Jaime, than himself at that moment.

 

He repays Jaime with a lie. If Jaime would have the same faith in Tyrion than Tyrion should have had in Tysha, he wouldn't ask the question.

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On February 19, 2015 at 5:50 AM, Oriolesmagic said:

 

 

 

I, honestly, don't believe Jaime thought Tyrion was telling the truth when it came to killing Joffrey. He knew his brother better than that. He THOUGHT he knew his sister better than that though.

I agree with this statement. Jamie has doubts to wether Tyrion really did kill Joffery later on.

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I have just finished reading ASoS and can say that I found this particular chapter one of the most cutting (in a book brimming with gut-wrenching moments!)

Tyrion is as ruthless as Tywin, while Jaime can never get his attempts at redemption quite right. Sad.

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It really bothered me too.  I honestly wanted to slap some rationality into Tyrion, despite him being my favourite character.  However, if we look back I think it is safe to say that most of us have said things we didn't mean when we look back just because we felt extremely hurt at the time.

I don't believe for a moment that Tyrion is as ruthless as Tywin, he can show a lot of compassion at times.  Okay militarily for instance yes he will set the river on fire if that is the only way to defeat an attacking army and he has done some bad things but he is not one without remorse.  I think in that dream, don't remember the exact details, when I think he kills Jaime, or Jaime gets killed or something he has two heads; one of them laughs, one weeps.

The thing with Tyrion is that he grew up to be completely convinced that no one would ever love him, least desire him or even befriend him for genuine reasons with the exception of Jaime and his uncles.  This is terrible baggage indeed and to top it all they keep telling him he killed his mother lol how could a baby just being born be blamed for that. To me is a miracle he didn't turn out like Ramsay or something.  He is strong in that he keeps hanging on to hope and to life, well until DWD he did, what he says about Bran for instance.  The whoring and drinking yes.  Someone who has nothing but coin and all this baggage needs to get through the day somehow, his way is the hedonistic route, he seeks out pleasure (having given up on true love or genuine companionship).  However, hell how many people stay faithful to a whore? lol  Even Robert's drinking and whoring I believe had something to do with losing Lyanna too although hey I am sure few men would say no to a bit of pleasure regardless.  Okay the point I am trying to make is that he was blown out of his senses in those two weeks with Tysha.  What Tywin did was terrible especially to her but to Tyrion too.  This was meant as punishment or Tywin wouldn't have make him do it (the rape).  I do not believe that was his choice fuelled by revenge alone.  There might have been something in that, that he turned on Tysha for "lying" to him (there have been various threads on this with people arguing quite fiercely for and against), but he says that "his cock betrayed him."  Okay, I am female and I can't know with certainty but I am a lawyer and there have been cases which establish the possibility of a female raping a male but proving that "involuntary erection" is medically proven and doesn't always mean consent.  Okay, hey Tysha certainly did not rape him.  However, he was 13, extremely hurt, terrified of his father and teenage's boys hormones are known to be pretty out of control.  He wouldn''t have decided to go and do that out of his own volition I don't believe but he certainly wouldn't have stayed with her either "knowing" it was all for coin.  Of course, had he known the truth even shortly after.. it's anyone's guess because he had no means of making a living etc if he had decided to go and find her and tell Tywin to sod Casterley Rock.  I think chances of this aren't good; for one thing he fears Tywin too much but that choice, in his mind when he finds out, was taken away from him by Jaime and of course Tywin.  I think that is how he views it this and extreme remorse for his part in the rape.

However, I hope he thinks this through because I agree, Jaime had always been good to him; also probably quite terrified of Tywin himself, despite being the golden son.  Tyrion was acting irrationally due to how hurt he was.  I do hope he sees the light and forgives him and yes Jaime did save his life!  After that dream I do hope that he will before it is all and dusted.

I agree that he lied because he just wanted to cause Jaime pain back which is sick, I agree, but a very human emotion.  I see Tyrion as a fundamentally good person, although pragmatic enough to be able to kill in battle although I think he prefers peaceful diplomacy, who totally loses it and acts like an injured beast when the emotional pain inflicted on him is so much that he can no longer cope.  I think I can relate a lot to him hence I have a bit of a soft spot for this character, which I openly admit.

Jaime has certainly gone up a lot on my estimation but some readers think that Tyrion has now changed and that he is going to stay that way.  I believe he had to reach rock bottom, like Arya, and then pick himself up.  I believe he is about half way now and I believe George said that this will not happen until the middle of TWOW when he will be again more logical and hence a lot less angry.  The author also commented at some point (haven't got the quotes handy that there is only so much one person can take), so I take he doesn't view him as this guy who is just plain ruthless.

Jaime might not have cared much about Joffrey; yes he wasn't involved in the upbringing of the kids and he probably detached himself as a coping mechanism.  Also, hey yes Joffrey is hard to love but then again we could have a slightly unreliable narrator with Jaime here.  I think Tyrion thought this was the case hence went for the jugular with his harsh words.  He wanted to hurt him.  I believe Tyrion was wrong in doing that but at that stage he had lost the plot and couldn't concentrate on the fact that yes, thanks to Jaime he was now alive and free.  The fact that he obsesses with "where do whores go?" implies that he would have liked to have the choice to try and join her sooner and seek her forgiveness which it was taken away from him.  However, he also fails to realise at that point that Tywin wasn't was terrifying to him but to his entire family including Jaime.

Okay my two cents on this guys.

Edited by Morgana Lannister

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I think its important to look at what Tyrion says right before Jaime asks him the question. 

Quote

Jaime unlocked the gate, pushed it open, and stepped through. He looked back over his shoulder. “Are you coming?”

“Not with you.” Tyrion stepped through. “Give me the keys and go. I will find Varys on my own.” He cocked his head and stared up at his brother with his mismatched eyes. “Jaime, can you fight left-handed?”

“Rather less well than you,” Jaime said bitterly.

“Good. Then we will be well matched if we should ever meet again. The cripple and the dwarf.”

Tyrion is ending his relationship with Jaime at this point. Why not lie to someone you hate? I think Tyrion wants to be as cruel as possible right now. 

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On 2/8/2017 at 8:49 PM, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I think its important to look at what Tyrion says right before Jaime asks him the question. 

Tyrion is ending his relationship with Jaime at this point. Why not lie to someone you hate? I think Tyrion wants to be as cruel as possible right now. 

I don't think that is going to stay that way by the end of the series though.  As already discussed in this thread, Tyrion is terribly hurt and acting quite cruelly towards Jaime but to me that dream represents that although there is still some resentment towards his brother left in him his subconscious is telling him that he still loves him.    He was acting in pure temper and I am sure the brothers will reconcile at some point.  Tyrion's mental state was definitely at its lowest point right then.  He did not believe Sansa could have killed Joffrey acting alone (if at all) but still is resentful that she left him by disappearing at the right moment "carrying the can."  Although I am sure he can appreciate that fighting the Mountain is more likely than not a death sentence and he knew Bron was a sellsword he had hoped for a true friend, everyone abandoned him in his final hour of need and that can be quite devastating, of course on top of the anger that I can anyone feeling if wrongly accused and sentenced to death.  He made a big mistake in my opinion though and I hope he will realise this when he is come out of that sort of nervous break down we see him having in ADWD.  I keep comparing his arc with Arya's and I think we are going to see them both less intent on such revenge by the end of the story.  George likes to fool with us readers I think.  He introduced Jaime as someone quite vile then we see his humanity (in how he was always good to Tyrion, how he truly was madly in love with Cersei and how he is with Brienne) and I think his arc is one of redemption.  Same thing happens with Theon although in a different way.  We want (readers) to skin him alive for what he did in Winterfell only to feel pity and get to understand his complexity, whereas Tyrion and Arya are presented as spirited but mainly sympathetic, then we get to find out about the darkness in both and they are both in a bad mental state, although I see Arya as more rational although she appears the opposite but I think whether they live or die in the end time is a great healer and both characters will revert to still grey but more sympathetic than they are right now and I believe a sibling reconciliation will play a part on both their arcs.  Cersei is a different matter though.  I really don't see Tyrion and her ever reconciling but had it been Cersei who had lied to him it would not have hurt Tyrion anywhere near as much because we can only be truly hurt by people we love and it is hard to love someone (blood relation or not) who has wanted you dead since you were born whereas Jaime was good to him.

I understand totally that Jaime at a crucial point when they didn't know if they would ever see each other again, given that Tyrion will have to live far away from where he could be executed, felt incredibly guilty and just had to tell the truth but as things open happen in this series in an ironic twist the timing could not have been worse.

I am pretty convinced that Jaime is not going to make it in the end and that Tyrion has a strong chance and I would really beg George to let them have their reconciliation before it is too late.  I don't recall but I might have missed something Jaime thinking about this moment but I am sure if they were both honest with themselves both regret this estrangement.  I am sure Jaime is still angry at Tyrion although not as much as the other way round but I think their love as brothers will prevail in the end.

As to a possible twist in terms of Tysha having been in it for his money it still possible and I believe George said we will find out "where whores go," so I wouldn't totally discount that theory but if this is true I doubt that Jaime would have been the one arranging it or would have known at all.

This rift had to happen plot-wise for various reasons though.  Firstly, to add to the utter misery Tyrion is in to be able to turn his favourite character more black than white convincingly.  Seondly to get him on the path to try to find out the truth about Tysha (although I am sure he will learn of her fate by pure chance as his path at the moment is not allowing him the freedom to go seeking her and thirdly to make the reunion more poignant between the brothers when it does in fact happen.  I have been convinced for some time that the "sweet" part of the overall ending is going to involve a lot of "healing" and "compromise" between antagonist parties and that the "bitter" part will be both enormous cast casualties and the fact that noone will be totally satisfied with the compromise they had no choice but make.

 

 

Edited by Morgana Lannister

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