Trial by Folly: The Arianne Martell Reread Project [TWOW Arianne I spoilers]

[Chebyshov]

Using this timeline as a rough reference, Quentyn's 20th day in Volantis (The Merchant's Man) is at 2/27. This means he arrived at 2/7. Before that, he had gone from Planty Town to Lys, stayed in Lys for four days, and gone from Lys to Volantis. Those are quite some distances, so by the time we actually see Quentyn for the first time, he seems to have been gone for a couple of months already.

Taking into account that Arianne's "half a year" for seducing Arys can be 5 months as well, It might just be possible that Quentyn left Dorne around the time of Arys' arrival.. Which coincides with the host of Yronwood arriving at the Prince's Pass, roughly.

Of course a 5 month journey for Quentyn until we reach The Merchants Man is too long to reach Volantis and remain there for 20 days (it would mean it took him 4 months to get there..). But the description from The Queenmaker on how Quentyn's mission was discovered suggests that it took Quentyn some time before finding passage at Planky Town, so perhaps he spend another month there (with Arianne discovering his mission at the beginning of that month)? A three month journey from Planky Town to Lys, and from Lys to Volantis, with a short stop in Lys (seasickness), might just take 3 months..

Which is actually all a long way of saying: I personally think, as explained in detail here, that Arianne seducing Arys was never just "for fun", until he actually became useful to her. There was always a reason to it.

Yay! I'm so glad you lent your timeline expertise to it. Oberyn's death (as far as Arianne's concerned) set an aggressive mood in Dorne, but given her seduction of Arys well before that, it seemed she had the long-play in mind. So as soon as she gets a report from Garin's friend in Plankytown, she strategizes and realizes Arys could be a giant benefit to her cause, if he could be swayed.

The only issue I have is that Joff's death only took place a few months before the Sand Snakes were locked up. So Tyene being told about the Queenmaker plot by Oberyn would have happened, what? A month or two after Arianne was already seducing Arys?

My best guess is that when Arianne heard about Quentyn, and knew she had to formulate some plan. Arys makes a good target, and his ties to King's Landing could be an asset, so Arianne might have begun seducing him just to see if she could (doesn't hurt anything to have him tied to her). As she was working on getting him in her pocket, she likely began to work out more and more details. Once word of the Queenmaker idea reached her, it all clicked into place (and I'm guessing her efforts to land Arys in bed were upped as well). Then, it wasn't until the Sand Snakes were imprisoned that she realized her father might not be afraid to openly act against her soon.

So yeah, not only are we seeing Arianne with an amorphous "something" up her sleeve, but she's also demonstrating the ability to read situations and act when necessary. Her only real problem was that she was acting on logical, but incorrect assumptions (and that includes her assumption about Dorne's ability to withstand war).

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Yay! I'm so glad you lent your timeline expertise to it. Oberyn's death (as far as Arianne's concerned) set an aggressive mood in Dorne, but given her seduction of Arys well before that, it seemed she had the long-play in mind. So as soon as she gets a report from Garin's friend in Plankytown, she strategizes and realizes Arys could be a giant benefit to her cause, if he could be swayed.

The only issue I have is that Joff's death only took place a few months before the Sand Snakes were locked up. So Tyene being told about the Queenmaker plot by Oberyn would have happened, what? A month or two after Arianne was already seducing Arys?

My best guess is that when Arianne heard about Quentyn, and knew she had to formulate some plan. Arys makes a good target, and his ties to King's Landing could be an asset, so Arianne might have begun seducing him just to see if she could (doesn't hurt anything to have him tied to her). As she was working on getting him in her pocket, she likely began to work out more and more details. Once word of the Queenmaker idea reached her, it all clicked into place (and I'm guessing her efforts to land Arys in bed were upped as well). Then, it wasn't until the Sand Snakes were imprisoned that she realized her father might not be afraid to openly act against her soon.

So yeah, not only are we seeing Arianne with an amorphous "something" up her sleeve, but she's also demonstrating the ability to read situations and act when necessary. Her only real problem was that she was acting on logical, but incorrect assumptions (and that includes her assumption about Dorne's ability to withstand war).

Well, Oberyn telling Tyene might have occured as soon as Doran had agreed to foster Myrcella and betroth her to Trystane, which would actually have preceded her arrival. So that can still very well have been happening before Arianne began seducing the guy.

But the Queenmaker-plot might not have been formulated yet when Arianne began her seduction. You are right in saying that Arys would have been usefull to have on her side, in whatever plot she was trying to think off at that moment. Though if the conversation between Oberyn and Tyene took place before Arys arrived, which it might have, Arianne's seduction might have been for the Queenmaker plot from the beginning.

If it wasn't, then I can imagine that Arianne had several "half completed" plots in mind, and that she was still working out which one was the best one, while already knowing that Myrcella (and thus Arys, as he was her way to Myrcella) were vital in those plans.

[Hrafntýr]

But unless Dorne had a hand in conceiving the Tyrell plot to murder Joffrey, the Queenmaker plot wouldn't make much sense prior to Joffrey's death, right? I mean, with an alive-and-kicking Joffrey, one might think of positioning Myrcella as his heir, but not as Queen.

Great work in this thread, by the way! Not only is it excellent in terms of depth of character analysis, but you've done a terrific job sorting out timeline issues with Quentyn's mission and Arrianne's plotting.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Hmm.. Good observation. Did Oberyn ever actually speak about crowning Myrcella, btw? I've been searching, but all I've found so far is

“Oh, but they must, or see the realm riven once more, as it was before we wed the dragons. Father told me so. He said we had the Imp to thank, for sending us Princess Myrcella.

Then Tyene goes on about the Queenmaker plot, but no indication there, as far as I could see so quickly, that it was Oberyns notion.

With a living and breathing Joff, crowning Myrcella would hold no ground (though possibly, Arianne and Tyene were inspired by Renly and his rather succesfull coronation). Perhaps then, indeed, the finalized Queenmaking-part of the Queenmaker plot (hehe) was decided upon after Joff's death? And before, the plan had been slightly different? Using Myrcella as a hostage, for example, against both KL and Doran (as Arianne's ultimate goal was to get her rights).. Though Arianne wouldn't actually have acted upon anything involving Myrcella, as that would most likely have meant the deaths of all those Dornishmen in KL (Oberyn, Ellaria, Daemon, etc.)

So it is possible that Joff's death lead to Arianne speeding up the plan..

[Julia Martell]

Well, Joffery was such a dip shit that people might have just thought that it was a matter of when someone was going to assassinate him, rather than if.

Arianne's biggest asset, in terms of the Queenmaker plot, was her control of Myrcella. (And, awesomely enough, it was this same asset that made her indispensable to Doran once the plot failed.) I mean, presumably, Myrcella trusts and/or loves Arianne enough that convincing her to lie forever to everyone, including her mother, about a life altering face deforming injury was such a forgone conclusion that it happened off screen.

Arianne might have sought to control Arys as part of a general strategy to be able to control Myrcella without one plan or another in particular in mind, as Rhaenys (may I call you Rhaenys?) said.

Poor girl must have spent months and months braiding Myrcella's hair and teaching Arys "I swear I'm not a virgin" Oakheart about where the clitoris is. That's commitment people!

Long story short, I think we might have some wiggle room re: Quentyn-gate kick off and Operation Oakwood ( :wideeyed:) kick off.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Well, Joffery was such a dip shit that people might have just thought that it was a matter of when someone was going to assassinate him, rather than if.

Arianne's biggest asset, in terms of the Queenmaker plot, was her control of Myrcella. (And, awesomely enough, it was this same asset that made her indispensable to Doran once the plot failed.) I mean, presumably, Myrcella trusts and/or loves Arianne enough that convincing her to lie forever to everyone, including her mother, about a life altering face deforming injury was such a forgone conclusion that it happened off screen.

Arianne might have sought to control Arys as part of a general strategy to be able to control Myrcella without one plan or another in particular in mind, as Rhaenys (may I call you Rhaenys?) said.

Poor girl must have spent months and months braiding Myrcella's hair and teaching Arys "I swear I'm not a virgin" Oakheart about where the clitoris is. That's commitment people!

Long story short, I think we might have some wiggle room re: Quentyn-gate kick off and Operation Oakwood ( :wideeyed:) kick off.

Yeah, whatever Arianne's plan was going to be, she would be needing to get to Myrcella, and to get to Myrcella, she would need to get Arys on her side.

Loving the mental picture of Arianne braiding Myrcella's hair for months :lol:

Arianne might have sought to control Arys as part of a general strategy to be able to control Myrcella without one plan or another in particular in mind, as Rhaenys (may I call you Rhaenys?) said.

Of course you may :D

[Chebyshov]

Well, Joffery was such a dip shit that people might have just thought that it was a matter of when someone was going to assassinate him, rather than if.

Yeah, that's a good point. Besides, Myrcella is such a useful hostage even without her "birthright" being an issue. Having her KG in Arianne's pocket can only be of help to her with whatever she might need.

Poor girl must have spent months and months braiding Myrcella's hair and teaching Arys "I swear I'm not a virgin" Oakheart about where the clitoris is. That's commitment people!

That's Doran "I'll send my son to Anders Yronwood" level commitment. Also that mental image is killing me :lol:.

Long story short, I think we might have some wiggle room re: Quentyn-gate kick off and Operation Oakwood ( :wideeyed:) kick off.

Exactly. I think it being her primary motivation makes all too much sense, and we are pointedly told that Quentyn's trip has been a lengthy one.

[Julia Martell]

That's Doran "I'll send my son to Anders Yronwood" level commitment. Also that mental image is killing me :lol:.

Which one? :cool4: :smoking:

[Dornish Vinegar]

GUYS I NEED TO APOLOGIZE FOR MY ABSENCE

I'm sorry I have been incommunicado for this discussion as of yet! I feel like I've let you all down (especially our learned colleague Cheb) by not being here for the launch of our reread. A language class I'm taking started on Tuesday and then the fates brought a few internships my way so I've been grinding away on the apps for those. Things should calm down tomorrow so I should be back then. I'm so so sorry :crying: :grouphug:

(In happier news tonight I used this reread as an excuse to treat myself to a first edition copy of Feast ( :drool: ) that I'd been eyeing at my local bookstore, and I'm about to curl up in bed and read me some Areo Hotah and Arys Oakheart. I'll catch up on what is doubtless all your insightful analyses here tomorrow and finally add my own :). xoxo your pal DV)

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Obara wants to grab the Yronwood and Martell forces and torch Oldtown (???). Doran says hell sleep on it and decides to go back to Sunspear because Obara might enflame the people.

As to Oldtown, Obara most likely wants to torch the place because that's where she grew up. In a whorehouse, nonetheless. She most likely wad already being prepared for that profession (as she spend only short time at the Water Gardens, she most likely was close to the maximum age, which seems to be 10, meaning that she wouldn't have been too far away from her first flowering), as her first menstruation can't have been too many years removed.

So Oldtown is most likely a traumatic memory for her, one she whishes to terminate. And what better way to do that than by sweeping away entire Oldtown?

So that's where Oldtown comes from here.

[Chebyshov]

GUYS I NEED TO APOLOGIZE FOR MY ABSENCE

I'm sorry I have been incommunicado for this discussion as of yet! I feel like I've let you all down (especially our learned colleague Cheb) by not being here for the launch of our reread. A language class I'm taking started on Tuesday and then the fates brought a few internships my way so I've been grinding away on the apps for those. Things should calm down tomorrow so I should be back then. I'm so so sorry :crying: :grouphug:

(In happier news tonight I used this reread as an excuse to treat myself to a first edition copy of Feast ( :drool: ) that I'd been eyeing at my local bookstore, and I'm about to curl up in bed and read me some Areo Hotah and Arys Oakheart. I'll catch up on what is doubtless all your insightful analyses here tomorrow and finally add my own :). xoxo your pal DV)

Haha, no worries, DV. Real life can be like that at times...looking forward to your contributions! I also hope that Ayrs and Areo were pleasant abed ;) (oh, and tangentially related, but there's a new Dornish Debates up, so come play in there too).

As to Oldtown, Obara most likely wants to torch the place because that's where she grew up. In a whorehouse, nonetheless. She most likely wad already being prepared for that profession (as she spend only short time at the Water Gardens, she most likely was close to the maximum age, which seems to be 10, meaning that she wouldn't have been too far away from her first flowering), as her first menstruation can't have been too many years removed.

So Oldtown is most likely a traumatic memory for her, one she whishes to terminate. And what better way to do that than by sweeping away entire Oldtown?

So that's where Oldtown comes from here.

Ahh, yes, that makes sense. I mean, not sense in the "I'm going to avenge my father" kind of way, but sense in her own way. I hope she'd warn Sarella first :stunned: .

Something quick about Arianne and Doran: we know he told her, "Words are like arrows, Arianne. Once loosened, you cannot call them back." Her decision not to confront Doran for years over the letter is actually an example of her heeding his advice. The moment she calls Doran on it is the moment she stands to lose everything. Let's say it was true; she's just alerted him to her awareness, and made it easier for him to act on his plans. So she's guarding her words, even around those whom she trusts. Arianne is a lot of things, but it's seeming that hasty and foolish aren't up there, even if she later admonishes herself for those qualities.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Ahh, yes, that makes sense. I mean, not sense in the "I'm going to avenge my father" kind of way, but sense in her own way. I hope she'd warn Sarella first :stunned: .

I'm wondering if Obara even knows that Sarella is there.

if Sarella is there on the orders of Doran/Oberyn, Obara most likely isn't aware.

Something quick about Arianne and Doran: we know he told her, "Words are like arrows, Arianne. Once loosened, you cannot call them back." Her decision not to confront Doran for years over the letter is actually an example of her heeding his advice. The moment she calls Doran on it is the moment she stands to lose everything. Let's say it was true; she's just alerted him to her awareness, and made it easier for him to act on his plans. So she's guarding her words, even around those whom she trusts. Arianne is a lot of things, but it's seeming that hasty and foolish aren't up there, even if she later admonishes herself for those qualities.

I worked that lesson from Doran into my analysis from the princess in the tower.

That lesson also shows in Arianne handling Arys. She doesn't attack him personally, while trying to shame him into helping her with her plot. Why? Because once words are loosened, you can't call them back. ;)

[SeanF]

Rhaenys, I think you're absolutely correct about Obara's reasons for wanting to destroy Oldtown.

But, the idea is bonkers. Oldtown is hundreds of miles away, and formidably well-guarded.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Rhaenys, I think you're absolutely correct about Obara's reasons for wanting to destroy Oldtown.

But, the idea is bonkers. Oldtown is hundreds of miles away, and formidably well-guarded.

Yeah, the idea wasn't a good one. Which might just be a perfect show as to Obara's character. Acting, not thinking about it. We see it a little bit in Hotah's thoughts about it

On one hip she wore a coiled whip, across her back a round shield of steel and copper. She had left her spear outside. For that, Areo Hotah gave thanks. Quick and strong as she was, the woman was no match for him, he knew... but she did not, and he had no wish to see her blood upon the pale pink marble.

Hotah is reflecting the possibility here of Obara attacking him. He knows he is strong than her, but with him saying that she isn't aware of that, that might just be a bit in the direction of "acting before you think".

And with Obara on her way to fight against Darkstar, that is the danger

[Tyene's Double Daggers]

This project is awesome! I feel too dumb to add anything onto it, haha.

I am surpirsed no one talked about Arianne offering to knifefight for Arys. Was she trying to be kinky for him? Do men find that hot?

I also love how her definition of "gallant" is also diferent from his. Like, she says "is that gallant, ser? You hurt me. I begin to think that all your words of love were lies." when he's leaving. So for him, "gallant" is remaining chaste and sticking to his vows, in this case cutting hs losses. Like "oh I messed up, but as long as it was only a few times." And for her "gallant" is seeing something through and standing up for your own desires.

I'll admit I didnt have that good an opinion of Arianne. But reading this, I think there's a lot more to her then meets the eye on the first time through. Really looking forward to keeping up with this!

[Maia]

Great project!

Anyway, a couple of things that occurred to me:

It hasn't been mentioned here yet, but Arys's mother is actually a ruling lady in her own right. She is the Lady Oakheart, who was present among Renly's council at Bitterbridge and gave us "Kinder than the Lannisters is drier than the sea" quote (paraphrased). Interestingly enough, Oakheart's older brother(s) and heir to the holdings isn't mentioned anywhere. Did he (they?) die young? There is nothing in Arys's internal thoughts to suggest that he gave up his inheritance to become a KG, like Selmy and Jaime. Anyway, IIRC at some point Arys thinks that "Women are the strong ones". But given his background, his sexism is actually that bit more embarrassing.

I do think that Oberyn's death was also significant for the timing of Arianne's plot, because she may have hoped that when push came to shove, Oberyn would have supported her succession. Close collaboration with Doran or no. After all, she and Oberyn were close too and saw things in similar ways, whereas there was no love lost between Oberyn and the Yronwoods, and he barely knew Quentyn. Also, Oberyn did nothing to curb his own daughters, which would have seemed like a sign that he and Doran didn't see entirely eye-to-eye.

And yes, Oberyn absolutely did, somewhat obliquely, pitch the "crowning Myrcella" plot to Tyrion, immediately before the fateful duel, IIRC.

I also somewhat disagree that having Arianne only host entertainment and not fulfill any other duties that a heir has normally was a good idea. Even if she was destined to be queen - which, hinging on Viserys's success in securing an army, would have always been a very uncertain proposition, even if Viserys had been a promising young man, she would have been one in very difficult circumstances, where her ability to contribute more than being a good hostess would have been valuable. Particularly since her husband would have had no experience of ruling himself. And what if he died young and she had to rule for her minor children? No, I can't approve of Doran's choice.

Particularly, since if the marriage plan failed for one of innumerable reasons that it was likely to fail, then what? He would have created fertile ground for a succession struggle.

Not to mention that yea, as seen here, Arianne _could_ keep secrets and from Quentyn's own chapters we know that he was not who Doran imagined he was either. In fact, he had most of Arianne's short-comings without most of her assets.

And don't let me start on how stupid it was not to find a way to keep close tabs on and ways to influence somebody who has been so important for a 17-year-long plot! Meaning Viserys, of course. I do want to believe that Doran is competent, I really do, but I just don't understand how neither he nor Oberyn have thought about this essential detail.

[Chebyshov]

Great project!

Anyway, a couple of things that occurred to me:

It hasn't been mentioned here yet, but Arys's mother is actually a ruling lady in her own right. She is the Lady Oakheart, who was present among Renly's council at Bitterbridge and gave us "Kinder than the Lannisters is drier than the sea" quote (paraphrased). Interestingly enough, Oakheart's older brother(s) and heir to the holdings isn't mentioned anywhere. Did he (they?) die young? There is nothing in Arys's internal thoughts to suggest that he gave up his inheritance to become a KG, like Selmy and Jaime. Anyway, IIRC at some point Arys thinks that "Women are the strong ones". But given his background, his sexism is actually that bit more embarrassing.

I know! To his credit, he favors Myrcella for rule over Tommen, but relying on the "I'm just a typical boy from the Reach" trope to explain away is sexism falls flat. His "women are the strong one" quote is telling (below), because clearly he's been around positive/strong female influences. Yet he still is uncomfortable operating in a transgressive dynamic with Arianne, and still thinks about "wanting his sons to follow him." And I think have the reason he attributes so much strength to Arianne is because he can't control himself around her.

The women are the strong ones, truly. He was thinking not only of Myrcella, but of her mother and his own, of the Queen of Thorns, of the Red Viper’s pretty, deadly Sand Snakes. And of Princess Arianne Martell, her most of all.

I also somewhat disagree that having Arianne only host entertainment and not fulfill any other duties that a heir has normally was a good idea. Even if she was destined to be queen - which, hinging on Viserys's success in securing an army, would have always been a very uncertain proposition, even if Viserys had been a promising young man, she would have been one in very difficult circumstances, where her ability to contribute more than being a good hostess would have been valuable. Particularly since her husband would have had no experience of ruling himself. And what if he died young and she had to rule for her minor children? No, I can't approve of Doran's choice.

Particularly, since if the marriage plan failed for one of innumerable reasons that it was likely to fail, then what? He would have created fertile ground for a succession struggle.

Not to mention that yea, as seen here, Arianne _could_ keep secrets and from Quentyn's own chapters we know that he was not who Doran imagined he was either. In fact, he had most of Arianne's short-comings without most of her assets.

And don't let me start on how stupid it was not to find a way to keep close tabs on and ways to influence somebody who has been so important for a 17-year-long plot! Meaning Viserys, of course. I do want to believe that Doran is competent, I really do, but I just don't understand how neither he nor Oberyn have thought about this essential detail.

Oh, absolutely. Don't get me wrong: I don't like his treatment of Arianne. But I'm trying to cut Doran some slack here. Putting her in charge of the parties and entertainment of important guests had its uses and played to her strengths. However, a much better decision would have been to proactively educate her. The only thing I can think is that their relationship was incredibly bad ever since she read the letter. She doesn't seem the kind to put on a happy face and suck it up if she's pissed off. So their strained relationship may have prevented him from constructively shaping her for rule? It's not the best excuse, but it's kind of logical.

[Dornish Vinegar]

Haha, no worries, DV. Real life can be like that at times...looking forward to your contributions! I also hope that Ayrs and Areo were pleasant abed ;) (oh, and tangentially related, but there's a new Dornish Debates up, so come play in there too).

Meh, Areo was a bit boring and I could tell Arys was just feeling guilty the whole time ;) And yay new playground!

But guys, discussion has been great so far, well done! I love the working out of the timeline of Quentyngate/Myrcellagate/Operation Oakwood. Questions that have always needed clarification. And y'all have really gotten some meat outta these chapters in terms of Arianne's character!

I don't have a looooot to add right now, besides some things that popped out to me on my read-through. (As it turns out I can't find the quotes I need for my first thing besides "There were two seats on the dais, near twin to one another, save that one had the Martell spear inlaid in gold upon its back, whilst the other bore the blazing Rhoynish sun that had flown from the masts of Nymeria's ships when she first came to Dorne. The captain places the prince beneath the spear and stepped away," so I'll hold off on that one till tomorrow).

THE OTHER THINGS THOUGH that I picked up on was some (what in hindsight turned out to be really obvious) symbolism, and that is of the Water Gardens. In The Soiled Knight, we read,

He is afraid, Ser Arys realized then. Look, his hand is shaking. The Prince of Dorne is terrified. Words failed him.

"My apologies, ser," Prince Doran said. "I am frail and failing, and sometimes...Sunspear wearies me, with its noises and dirt and smells. As soon as my duty allows, I mean to return to the Water Gardens. When I do I shall take Princess Myrcella with me." Before the knight could protest, the prince raised a hand, its knuckles red and swollen. "You shall go as well. And her septa, her maids, her guards. Sunspear's walls are strong, but beneath them is the shadow city. Even within the castle hundreds come and go each day. The Gardens are my haven. Prince Maron raised them as a gift for his Targaryen bride, to mark Dorne's marriage to the Iron Throne.

Besides the really great similarity we see in the first line between Doran's shaking and Arianne's trembling later in the chapter and how Arys similarly responds to that body language across the father and the daughter (and differentially, based on gender), Doran gives us here a very explicit connection between the Water Gardens and Dorne's relationship to the Iron Throne and the rest of the seven kingdoms--the Water Gardens are a representation of Dorne's unity with the rest of Westeros, and by extension, with the Targaryen monarchy that alliance was founded on. This symbolism is bolstered by a line from The Captain of Guards, which expounds on Doran's current relationship with the Water Gardens as a place of rest and peace, but also a place of controlled environment and deceit. It reads

The captain understood. Two years ago, when they had left Sunspear for the peace and isolation of the Water Gardens, Prince Doran's gout had not been half so bad. In those days he had still walked, albeit slowly, leaning on a stick and grimacing with every step. The prince did not wish his enemies to know how feeble he had grown, and the Old Palace and its shadow city were full of eyes. Eyes, the captain thought, and steps he cannot climb. He would need to fly to sit atop the Tower of the Sun.

It's not a large leap to say that the implied lack of potential eyes spying on potential plots at the Gardens was a big motivating factor in Doran's move there, especially when you realize that the place is small enough to only need thirty guards (that's a nice lil tidbit from Captain), and especially when you realize that Doran relocated there two years ago around the time that Viserys seemed to have secured an army with Dany's marriage to a Dothraki warlord, and especially when you consider that Oberyn went there once a week to chat about things, and especially when you realize that Doran's love for the children and what they represent to him is what helped him stay his hand during the War of the Five Kings while he waited for a Targaryen who was strong enough to come into the ring. So, despite Doran's straight up frontin' to the powers that be in King's Landing, the Water Gardens totally represent Dorne's unity with the Targaryens. The Water Gardens have been integral to Operation Targ Restoration.

Now, I think we can all agree that Doran is an old-school Dornish prince balla who grew up with Dorne as part of the Seven Kingdoms and it was all happy and stuff and who may (?) not live through to the end of the series. Contrast his view of the Gardens, then, with Arianne's, who is the new-school Dornish princess who grew up with her great uncle, aunt and cousins, and eventually her uncle, being murdered as a direct result of Dorne's connection to the Targaryens. From The Soiled Knight:

"...You do know that when my father returns to the Water Gardens be plans to take Myrcella with him?"

"To keep her safe from those who would do her harm."

"No. To keep her away from those who'd seek to crown her. Prince Oberyn Viper would have placed the crown upon her head himself if he had lived, but my father lacks the courage." She got to her feet. "You would say you love the girl as you would a daughter of your own blood. Would you let your daughter be despoiled of her rights and locked away in a prison?"

"The Water Gardens are no prison," he protested feebly.

"A prison does not have fountains and fig trees, is that what you think? Yet once the girl is there, she will not be allowed to leave. No more than you will. Hotah will see to that. You do not know him as I do. He is terrible when aroused."

Arianne construing the Water Gardens as a prison where before Doran construed it as a "haven" is a very blatant contrast on the part of GRRM, imo. Arianne's argument that the Water Gardens is a prison is in effect a rejection of the ideas the Water Gardens stand for, of Dornish unity with the Targaryens and by extension, with Westeros itself. This could suggest a generational shift in how the ruler of Dorne perceives Dorne's relationship with the rest of Westeros, changing from one generation (Doran) trying to salvage it, and one generation (Arianne) rejecting it entirely. Quentyn's death at the hands of a Targaryen dragon could easily play into this shift, as well, once the news hits.

This symbolic implication leads to some interesting lines of thought when you connect it with thoughts of Dornish Independence, Dornish rebellion, Dorne's future relationship with Targaryens (be they Aegon or Daenerys), and Arianne's fact-finding mission to Aegon. Honestly this felt like a literary analysis I used to do for books in college, so I doubt if any of it will have practical implications for the story or how it does in the future, but I thought it was an interesting analysis so I thought I'd share. I hope it made sense!

Got more things to ask/add tomorrow but it is laaaate out here on the West Coast so I'm reporting out for the evening. A demain my darlings!

[Julia Martell]

Yeah, DV, I can see how little you have to add... :rolleyes:

I sometimes wonder how much of Doran's fear is an act. I mean, he might not be afraid of defying the Lannisters, but he is afraid of, like, becoming emotionally attached to his own children, and confronting his own failure. I mean, that's Quentyn-gate in a nutshell, isn't it?

Good catch also, on the gendered nature of Arys's reaction to the separate Martell's trembling.

Poor Arys. That conversation must have been so terrifying for him. Guys like him always expect to be castrated or something when they meet their girlfriend's father. (You know, because they think they owe their fathers something, but that's a separate rant.) And Doran's sick old man act (I'm not sure how a sick old man can put on a sick old man act, but he manages it) must be disturbing to him for another reason. I wouldn't be surprised if the Princes of Dorne were some kind of boogy man to people in the Stormlands and the Reach, like The Doctor to the Daleks, or something. All of the historical Martells we've heard of were badasses, and now here's this guy who afraid of his own subjects. I bet it was quite disappointing.

I think that the line between haven and prison is a rather hazy one for Doran. He's definitely hiding there, surrounded by ultra symbolic over-ripe fruit. He doesn't want to be seen, literally or metaphorically. He gets through the awkward conversations with his nieces as fast as he possibly can, brushing them off with what essentially amounts to "yeah, I'll think about it, now go away." He covers his legs with a blanket to hide them from the children. He hides behind the curtains of the litter through the streets of Sunspear. He brushes off his daughter and his entire court as quickly as he id Obara and Nym, then he brushes off Tyene. Then he hides again in his solar, only inviting people in to give them a brief performance.

Did he ever speak to Arianne during the time he was in Sunspear before Myrcella-gate started? Doesn't look like it.

I love the incredibly haunting image of him sitting in his wheelchair in the Water Gardens with the letter telling him of Oberyn's death on his lap, unopened for an entire day and night. What was that Tyrion said way back in aGoT? "Most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it." Doran struggles with this, I think. I does the same thing when he locks Arianne up for a month before even speaking to her. If he doesn't open it, maybe he won't have to deal with it.

[Chebyshov]

THE OTHER THINGS THOUGH that I picked up on was some (what in hindsight turned out to be really obvious) symbolism, and that is of the Water Gardens. In The Soiled Knight, we read,

Besides the really great similarity we see in the first line between Doran's shaking and Arianne's trembling later in the chapter and how Arys similarly responds to that body language across the father and the daughter (and differentially, based on gender), Doran gives us here a very explicit connection between the Water Gardens and Dorne's relationship to the Iron Throne and the rest of the seven kingdoms--the Water Gardens are a representation of Dorne's unity with the rest of Westeros, and by extension, with the Targaryen monarchy that alliance was founded on. This symbolism is bolstered by a line from The Captain of Guards, which expounds on Doran's current relationship with the Water Gardens as a place of rest and peace, but also a place of controlled environment and deceit. It reads

The captain understood. Two years ago, when they had left Sunspear for the peace and isolation of the Water Gardens, Prince Doran's gout had not been half so bad. In those days he had still walked, albeit slowly, leaning on a stick and grimacing with every step. The prince did not wish his enemies to know how feeble he had grown, and the Old Palace and its shadow city were full of eyes. Eyes, the captain thought, and steps he cannot climb. He would need to fly to sit atop the Tower of the Sun.

It's not a large leap to say that the implied lack of potential eyes spying on potential plots at the Gardens was a big motivating factor in Doran's move there, especially when you realize that the place is small enough to only need thirty guards (that's a nice lil tidbit from Captain), and especially when you realize that Doran relocated there two years ago around the time that Viserys seemed to have secured an army with Dany's marriage to a Dothraki warlord, and especially when you consider that Oberyn went there once a week to chat about things, and especially when you realize that Doran's love for the children and what they represent to him is what helped him stay his hand during the War of the Five Kings while he waited for a Targaryen who was strong enough to come into the ring. So, despite Doran's straight up frontin' to the powers that be in King's Landing, the Water Gardens totally represent Dorne's unity with the Targaryens. The Water Gardens have been integral to Operation Targ Restoration.

Holy crap, I never thought about Viserys getting an army as being part of the reason Doran might have wanted to go scheme away from Sunspear. That's just amazing (here I was thinking it was all about the gout). Also, does this mean Arianne and Doran were around each other at Sunspear for 7 years after she read the letter? I was praising her for not acting impulsively for 9 years, but to actually be around her dad, who had caused her so much hurt (unbeknownst to him) for that significant amount of time without raging at him? Or without confiding in Tyene about what was upsetting her? She is no drunkard rolling dice, that's for sure.

Yeah, DV, I can see how little you have to add... :rolleyes:

Seriously. Just surface-level and dull.