Trial by Folly: The Arianne Martell Reread Project [TWOW Arianne I spoilers]

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I'm getting the impression that that's not a problem here.

We might be able to publish a book of essays when all is said and done.

I've seriously almost reached the double amount of maximally allowed quote boxes..

I did discover a lot of interesting stuff for in my analysis... ^^

[Chebyshov]

Jeeze, you guys are making me feel like a slacker!

Do you think Arianne and Arys normally met in such secretive locations (requiring her to write a detailed letter each time), or was it because Doran was back that they wanted to be extra-cautious. I'm leaning towards the former because of Arys's guilt, but I'm also thinking Doran's presence in Sunspear might have led to Arianne altering much of her behavior.

[Julia Martell]

I can't picture Arys and Arianne's relationship being much of a secret around the palace at Sunspear, if only because Arys seems to turn into Kiff from Futurama whenever she's in the room.

She did seem to make an effort to be discrete though, what with the letters and Pillow House rendez-vous.

I doubt she's discrete in general, since I think a good part of her pretty boy thing is an attempt to make Doran uncomfortable, or at least get his attention. Not so much the promiscuity itself, which seems to be a natural thing for her, but the kiss-and-telling with unsuitable partners (like Garin for example) to the extent that her father doesn't think she's physically capable of keeping a secret. All the poor woman wanted was for her father to tell her off for fucking the pool boy, and he never did.

Which is passing strange if he intends for her to be Queen, in my opinion. You can get away with sleeping with Moonboy in Dorne, but in King's Landing, that kind of stuff could get you killed.

[Chebyshov]

I can't picture Arys and Arianne's relationship being much of a secret around the palace at Sunspear, if only because Arys seems to turn into Kiff from Futurama whenever she's in the room.

She did seem to make an effort to be discrete though, what with the letters and Pillow House rendez-vous.

I doubt she's discrete in general, since I think a good part of her pretty boy thing is an attempt to make Doran uncomfortable, or at least get his attention. Not so much the promiscuity itself, which seems to be a natural thing for her, but the kiss-and-telling with unsuitable partners (like Garin for example) to the extent that her father doesn't think she's physically capable of keeping a secret. All the poor woman wanted was for her father to tell her off for fucking the pool boy, and he never did.

Which is passing strange if he intends for her to be Queen, in my opinion. You can get away with sleeping with Moonboy in Dorne, but in King's Landing, that kind of stuff could get you killed.

Aww, he's just like a typical dad, getting weirded out by his daughter's libido. She and Garin hooked up?! This wasn't related to the gold tooth incident, right?

It is incredibly odd Doran never thought to say anything though. Like, I sincerely doubt Viserys would have been okay with his wife having paramours, and it could cost Arianne her head in certain situations (especially in absence of paternity testing). His way of mitigating the Daemon situation was (in Arianne's opinion), to do nothing, though perhaps Doran suggested to his brother to take Daemon as a squire, separating the two. Doran's big on that solution: give all of Arianne's friends a timeout.

Does this make Arianne Amy Wong?

[Julia Martell]

“I know. If I kept you ignorant too long, it was only to protect you. Arianne, your nature . . . to you, a secret was only a choice tale to whisper to Garin and Tyene in your bed of a night. Garin gossips as only the orphans can, and Tyene keeps nothing from Obara and the Lady Nym. ”

Having bed maids of the same gender who literally sleep in your bed with you is common in this universe, but I doubt Garin could be placed in this category, so I have no choice but to interpret this line as: Arianne, Garin, and Tyene liked post-threesome gossip sessions.

But yes, I think Arianne is at least somewhat justified in saying that her father's favourite parenting strategy is to do nothing. I like to think of Doran as having a fear of becoming too close to his children, because he knows he can't keep them. It's like a knight who doesn't name his horses, or something.

[Chebyshov]

^that's quite chilling when applied to parenthood. No wonder Mellario wasn't able to handle it.

Hey, if Sylva ever joined in on these fun orgies, then save for Myrcella, Arianne would have fucked all her co-conspirators!

[Julia Martell]

^that's quite chilling when applied to parenthood. No wonder Mellario wasn't able to handle it.

Hey, if Sylva ever joined in on these fun orgies, then save for Myrcella, Arianne would have fucked all her co-conspirators!

How can she trust a person without first having sex with them? That's crazy!

And that gold tooth incident will haunt me forever, since I doubt The George will take the time to tell us the details.

[Julia Martell]

A third notion comes to mind, though it might go more into the direction of crackpots. Would it be possible that Oberyn had noticed that Arianne had been secuding Arys, and that she was suceeding? Oberyn would most likely have left for KL before Arianne and Arys actually had sex (it would be hilarious if Oberyn's absence was a factor in Arianne finally succeeding; in a way that he wanted Arianne, but feared Oberyn too much to go for it, and once Oberyn left... we know the rest), but the flirting could have been observed.

Yes! This totally happened! This is how Arys thinks, he can't just steal Arianne's vagina right under her uncle's nose, that would be wrong.

(I realizse this was posted a week ago. I'm rereading the reread thread. :blushing: )

[Chebyshov]

Yeah, psh, who would do that? :leaving:

All the poor woman wanted was for her father to tell her off for fucking the pool boy, and he never did.

I forgot to say how amazing this analogy is. But seriously, however uncomfortable speaking to his daughter about grownup issues makes him, what was Doran thinking, never addressing her behavior?

[Julia Martell]

One last though for these chapters...

Arainne threw Doran a feast when he came back to Sunspear, and he didn't go.

That must have been awesome for her self esteem.

[Chebyshov]

Maybe he went to it after locking up the Snakes? I'm not sure if that would be better or worse. "Oh hi, I just locked up your beloved cousins, but boy do these dolmades look great!" :dunno:

[Dornish Vinegar]

Arianne I: The Queenmaker

Alright comrades, the moment we’ve all been waiting for! THE QUEENMAKER. Let’s get right to it!

Summary

We open with a beautiful exposition of the kind of lives Dornishmen live:

Beneath the burning sun of Dorne, wealth was measured as much in water as in gold, so every well was zealously guarded. The well at Shandystone had gone dry a hundred years before, however, and its guardians had departed for some wetter place, abandoning their modest holdfast with its fluted columns and triple arches. Afterward the sands had crept back in to reclaim their own.

Our princess Arianne Martell arrives at a Shandystone tinted in the gold and purple hues of dusk, accompanied by Ser Andrey Dalt, heir to Lemonwood, and Spotted Sylva Santagar, heir to Spottswood. There they rendezvous with Garin of the Orphans of the Greenblood, who arrived several hours earlier, and the knight Ser Gerold Dayne of the cadet branch of the Daynes, aka’d “Darkstar,” who had arrived the day before.

As Drey and Garin water the horses, Arianne reminisces aloud about the first time she came to Shandystone, with her uncle Oberyn, her cousins Sarella and Tyene, and Garin.

“And what did you do, princess?” asked Spotted Sylva.

I sat beside the well and pretended that some robber knight had brought me here to have his way with me, she thought, a tall hard man with black eyes and a widow’s peak. The memory made her uneasy. “I dreamed,” she said, “and when the sun went down I sat cross-legged at my uncle’s feet and begged him for a story.”

It’s during this conversation that we get our first taste of Darkstar.

“They trembled,” said Ser Gerold, “then they killed him. If I led a quarter of a million men to death, would they call me Gerold the Great?” He snorted. “I shall remain Darkstar, I think. At least it is mine own.” He unsheathed his longsword, sat upon the lip of the dry well, and began to hone the blade with an oilstone.

Arianne looks at him and thinks to herself that he would make a worthy consort, and that their children “would be as beautiful as dragonlords,” but remembers that her father would question her good sense if she went that route. (It’s interesting to note here that Arianne is still considering her father’s opinion, even on the cusp of overthrowing him.) They make eye contact and Darkstar gives her a smile, and Arianne begins to blush. She thinks to herself that if he gives her such a look after Ser Arys Oakheart of the Kingsguard arrives there could be blood spilt between the two knights, but, impressively, she does not know whose blood it would be.

Drey and Garin build a fire and the party sits and talks around it, Garin relaying stories of Essos he’s heard in the Planky Town. The subject of the Golden Company comes up.

“…And the Golden Company broke its contract with Myr, just as the Myrmen were about to go to war with Lys.”

“The Lyseni bought them off,” suggested Sylva.

“Clever Lyseni,” Drey said. “Clever, craven Lyseni.”

Arianne knew better. If Quentyn has the Golden Company behind him… “Beneath the gold the bitter steel,” was their cry. You will need bitter steel and more, brother, if you think to set me aside. Arianne was loved in Dorne, Quentyn little known. No company of sellswords could change that.

It’s at this point that Ser Gerold announces that he believes he’ll have a piss, and once he’s gone Arianne’s friends let loose, telling her how they get bad vibes from him. Arianne responds with “We need him. It may be that we will need his sword, and we will surely need his castle.” Her buds begin to tease each other, and our princess takes her leave of them momentarily, being “in no mood for japery.” We get the impression that she is preoccupied with her mission, perhaps apprehensive or nervous, and it is here when we get our first real impression of what she thinks of her brother. And boy is this page paydirt:

The sun was gone, and the sky was full of stars. So many. She leaned her back against a fluted pillar and wondered if her brother was looking at the same stars tonight, wherever he might be. Do you see the white one, Quentyn? That is Nymeria’s star, burning bright, and that milky band behind her, those are ten thousand ships. She burned as bright as any man, and so shall I. You will not rob me of my birthright!

I’ll spare you guys from quoting the whole page, but suffice it to say Arianne expounds on Quentyn’s fostership in Yronwood and his mission in the Planky Town.

My brother is not as clever as he thinks. A clever man would have left from Oldtown, even if it meant a longer voyage. In Oldtown he might have gone unrecognized.

...

Arianne would have given much and more to know that this secret trip across the narrow sea was Quentyn’s own doing, and his alone… but parchments he had carried had been sealed with the sun and spear of Dorne. Garin’s cousin did not dare to break the seal to read them, but…

It’s at this point that Arianne is interrupted in her reflection by Darkstar, who believes he has just returned from having a piss. They begin to chat, and in this exchange we see what he thinks her motivations are, that Arianne has not totally divulged her suspicions with everyone, and what Arianne feels comfortable letting those in her party know her motivations are:

Dayne put a foot upon the head of a statue that might have been the maiden till the sands have scoured her face away. [cough great subtle foreshadowing of what happens to Myrcella at the end of the chapter cough cough] "It occurred to me as I was pissing that this plan of yours may not yield you what you want."

"And what is it I want, ser?"

"The Sand Snakes freed. Vengeance for Oberyn and Elia. Do I know the song? You want a little taste of lion’s blood."

That, and my birthright. I want Sunspear, and my father’s seat. I want Dorne. "I want justice."

"Call it what you will. Crowning the Lannister girl is a hollow gesture. She will never sit the Iron Throne. Nor will you get the war you want. The lion is not so easily provoked."

Darkstar goes on to imply that to truly start a war they’d have to kill Myrcella. Arianne quickly puts the kabash on that, saying that Myrcella is under her protection and that Ser Arys would never let any harm befall her. Darkstar says ominously that Daynes have been killing Oakhearts for thousands of years. Their conversation is cut short by Ser Arys and Myrcella’s arrival.

Immediately, Drey, Sylva, and Garin begin kneeling and calling her Queen. Myrcella becomes very confused, and Arianne thinks to herself in frustration “Has he told her nought?” Showing her skill in reading situations, though, Arianne approaches the Queen-to-be, puts her at ease, and begins introducing her to the merry band of conspirators. After the introductions are complete, Arianne explains to Myrcella that she has some time to rest and eat before they must be on their way again.

As they return to the fire, Ser Arys begs Arianne for a private word and they split off deeper into the ruins. He explains that the escape went well enough (despite apparently his need to wear a white cloak of the Kingsguard nonetheless, to which Arianne appropriately thinks “the gallant fool”), and that Tywin Lannister has been killed by Tyrion, and then tries to get all frisky, but Arianne explains that they have no time for those sexy shenanigans right now. They discuss the doubles Myrcella and Arys they left behind, and Arys tries to finagle more information out of Arianne, an approach that she deftly deflects, again, showing how careful she is with the release of information:

“All we need is a few days. By that time the princess will be beyond my father’s reach.”

“Where?’ He drew her close and nuzzled at her neck. ‘It’s time you told me the rest of the plan, don’t you think?”

She laughed, pushing him away. “No, it’s time we rode.”

The seven of them proceed to set off to the southwest. As they ride, Arianne reflects:

Drey had wanted a larger party, but that might have attracted unwelcome attention, and every additional man doubled the risk of betrayal. That much my father taught me, at the least. Even when he was younger and stronger, Doran Martell had been a cautious man much given to silences and secrets. It is time he put his burdens down, but I will suffer no slights to his honor or his person. She would return him to his Water Gardens, to live out what years remained him surrounded by laughing children and the smell of limes and oranges. Yes, and Quentyn can keep him company. Once I crown Myrcella and free the Sand Snakes, all Dorne will rally to my banners. The Yronwoods might declare for Quentyn, but alone they were no threat. If they went over to Tommen and the Lannisters, she would have Darkstar destroy them root and branch.

As the journey continues, Arianne and Garin explain the Orphans of the Greenblood to Myrcella, and they and the rest of the party draw up a rapport with the Queen, asking her about cyvasse and about her handmaid Rosamund. Myrcella grows tired, so Arianne calls a brief halt to water the horses, rest a little, and eat. They are still in the saddle when dawn comes. It’s here when we get a great couple short exchanges between her and Darkstar and Ser Arys:

Darkstar cantered up beside her. “Princess,” he said, “I’d set a faster pace, unless you mean to kill the child after all. We have no tents, and by day the sands are cruel.”

“I know the sands as well as you do, ser,” she told him. All the same, she did as he suggested. It was hard on their mounts, but better she should lose six horses than one princess.

...

Soon enough the wind came gusting from the west, hot and dry and full of grit. Arianne drew her veil across her face. It was made of shimmering silk, pale green above and yellow below, the colors blending into one another. Small green pearls gave it weight, and rattled softly against each other as she rode.

“I know why my princess wears a veil,” Ser Arys said as she was fastening it to the temples of her copper helm. “Elsewise her beauty would outshine the sun above.”

She had to laugh. “No, your princess wears a veil to keep the glare out of her eyes and the sand out of her mouth. You should do the same, ser.” She wondered how long her white knight had been polishing his ponderous gallantry. Ser Arys was pleasant company abed, but wit and he were strangers.

They continue across the drylands, and slowly began to approach their destination. Heralded by a hawk aflight, sandbeggar trees, olive groves, and finally green grass and lemon orchards, the party finally sees the Greenblood in the distance.

She had seldom seen a sweeter sight. The next part should be slow and simple, she thought, up the Greenblood and onto the Vaith, as far as a poleboat can go. That would give her enough time to prepare Myrcella for all that was to come. Beyond Vaith the deep sands waited. They would need help from Sandstone and the Hellholt to make that crossing, but she did not doubt that it would be forthcoming. The Red Viper had been fostered at Sandstonem and Prince Oberyn’s paramour Ellaria Sand was Lord Uller’s natural daughter; four of the Sand Snakes were his granddaughters. I will crown Myrcella at the Hellholt and raise my banners there.

Down the Greenblood they find the poleboat, a beautifully painted and carved vessel, hidden a ways downstream. It’s here when things go horribly, horribly wrong. Almost immediately, Arianne notices something strange:

Poles and ropes and jars of olive oil cluttered her decks, and iron lanterns swung fore and aft. Arianne saw no orphans. Where is the crew, she wondered?

As Garin approaches the boat and shouts happily for its crew to come out, Areo Hotah bursts out from inside the boat’s cabins.

Garin jerked to a halt. Arianne felt as though an axe had caught her in the belly. It was not supposed to end this way. This was not supposed to happen. When she heard Drey say, “There’s the last face I’d hoped to see,” she knew she had to act. “Away!” she cried, vaulting back into the saddle. “Arys, protect the princess—“

More guards appear on deck, and Areo shouts to Arianne to yield, that he has been given orders to kill all of her party except herself and Myrcella if she does not yield. Garin and Drey make moves to surrender, but Arys reigns up between the guards and his princesses.

“No!” Ser Arys Oakheart put his horse between Arianne and the crossbows, his blade shining silver in his hand. He had unslung his shield and slipped his left arm through the straps. “You will not take her whilst I still draw breath.”

You reckless fool, was all Arianne had time to think, what do you think you are doing?

Darkstar laughs at Ser Arys and tells him to yield. Drey yells at the Kingsguard that Darkstar is right.

We are taken, ser, Arianne might have called out. Your death will not free us. If you love your princess, yield. But when she tried to speak, the words caught in her throat.

Ser Arys looks back at Arianne, and charges headlong at the guards. He gets peppered with crossbow bolts, but charges on.

Arianne Martell had never seen anything half so gallant, or half so stupid. “Noooo,” she shrieked, but she had found her tongue too late… “No,” some girl was shouting, some foolish little girl, “no, please, this was not supposed to happen.” She could hear Myrcella shrieking too, her voice shrill with fear.

Arys manages to get to the boat and takes several of the guards down with slashes of his longsword, but his mount collapses under him. He rises to find Areo Hotah above him, and raises his sword, but it is too late. Hotah takes Ser Arys’ right arm off at the shoulder, and his head off on the backslash. The Kingsguard’s head tumbles down into the reeds and sinks into the Greenblood.

Arianne did not remember climbing from her horse. Perhaps she’d fallen. She did not remember that either. Yet she found herself on her hands and feet in the sand, shaking and sobbing and retching up her supper. No, was all she could think, no, no one was to be hurt, it was all planned, I was so careful. She heard Areo Hotah roar, “After him. He must not escape. After him!” Myrcella was on the ground, wailing, shaking, her pale face in her hands, blood streaming through her fingers. Arianne did not understand. Mun were scrambling onto horses whilst others swarmed over her and her companions, but none of it made sense. She had fallen into a dream, some terrible red nightmare. This cannot be real. I will wake soon, and laugh at my night terrors.

When they sought to bind her bands behind her back, she did not resist. One of the guardsmen jerked her to her feet. He wore her father’s colors. Another bent and seized the throwing knife inside her boot, a gift from her cousin Lady Nym.

Areo Hotah took it from the man and frowned at it. “The prince said I must bring you back to Sunspear,” he announced. His cheeks and brow were freckled with the blood of Arys Oakheart. “I am sorry, little princess.”

Arianne raised a tear-streaked face. “How could he know?” she asked the captain. “I was so careful. How could he know?”

“Someone told.” Hotah shrugged. “Someone always tells.”

[Dornish Vinegar]

Analysis

Mkay, so obviously there’s a lot of meat to get into here, since it’s our first chapter that is actually from Arianne’s point of view. We are in her head—we know her thoughts and her opinions and her motivations, in a much more nuanced form than we get in The Soiled Knight chapter. A good place to start might be in her feelings toward her brother Quentyn and her father Doran.

Relationship with her Brother and her Father

The thing that really jumped out to me on this readthrough of this chapter was that I did not get the impression that she necessarily treated Quentyn and Doran equally in their assumed betrayal, which is really interesting. Over the course of the chapter we get two passages that really give us some depth into what she thinks about these two very present men looming over her in her life. The first revolves mostly around her brother Quentyn. It’s after Arianne has left the fire and is looking at the stars, and before Darkstar approaches her. The relevant bits of the text read:

She leaned her back against a fluted pillar and wondered if her brother was looking at the same stars tonight, wherever he might be. Do you see the white one, Quentyn? That is Nymeria’s star, burning bright, and that milky band behind her, those are ten thousand ships. She burned bright as any man, and so shall I. You will not rob me of my birthright!

Prince Doran was still pretending that her brother was with Lord Yronwood, but Garin’s mother had seen him at the Planky Town, posing as a merchant. One of his companions had a lazy eye, the same as Cletus Yronwood, Lord Ander’s randy son. A maester traveled with them too, a maester skilled in tongues. My brother is not as clever as he thinks. A clever man would have left from Oldtown, even if it meant a longer voyage. In Oldtown he might have gone unrecognized.

Arianne would have given much and more to know that this secret trip across the narrow sea was Quentyn’s own doing, and his alone… but parchments he had carried had been sealed with the sun and spear of Dorne.

These passages are interesting because they implicate Prince Doran just as much as they do Quentyn in the conspiracy that she believes is going on, but later on we see a different side of her feelings toward her father, one of sympathy and respect.

We are seven, Arianne realized as they rode. She had not thought of that before, but it seemed a good omen for their cause. Seven riders on their way to glory. One day the singers will make all of us immortal. Drey had wanted a larger party, but that might have attracted unwelcome attention, and every additional man doubled the risk of betrayal. That much my father taught me, at the least. Even when he was younger and stronger, Doran Martell had been a cautious man much given to silences and secrets. It is time he put his burdens down, but I will suffer no slights to his honor or his person. She would return him to his Water Gardens, to live out what years remained him surrounded by laughing children and the smell of limes and oranges. Yes, and Quentyn can keep him company. Once I crown Myrcella and free the Sand Snakes, all Dorne will rally to my banners.

Here we see Doran thought of not as a conspirator trying to steal away Arianne’s birthright, but as an old man, ailing and tired and deserving to have the burden of rule lifted from his shoulders. She thinks he deserves to be at peace in his sanctuary of the Water Gardens after his and Quentyn’s coup is foiled, not punished. This is in stark contrast to how she implies Quentyn will be exiled to the Gardens, for whom it will be a prison, not a sanctuary. This difference in feelings towards the two is evidenced further given the tone taken with her brother in the bits from the first passage. She calls Quentyn out as the one fit to steal her birthright, not her father, and implies that she has outsmarted him, not her father, by discovering of his time in the Planky Town. It’s a strange, noticeable discrepancy.

Taking the differences in attitude toward her brother and father in their scheming and the differences in attitude toward what would be their punishment into account, we almost get the impression that the conspiracy that she believes is going on is effectively the brainchild of Quentyn’s ambition and that her father has just been complicit in her sibling’s scheming. This is ironic, given the circumstances around when she first found out about the conspiracy. I think it goes to demonstrate the deep-seated, powerful bond Arianne has with her father, in much the same way that we believe that she has been acting out since she was young just to get a rise out of him. Arianne values her father and her relationship with him, even if she is internally very conflicted about that relationship. She can stand to hold Quentyn in contempt for the conspiracy because she hardly knows him—she has a much more difficult time doing the same for her father. Indeed, she is still wondering what her father would think of her taking Darkstar as a consort even as she is plotting to overthrow him. Their relationship is much deeper, and they value each other's opinions of the other more, than either of them can admit, I think.

It makes me wonder if their relationship as she was growing up was a lot stronger than we’ve gotten told (the “you were the girl that came to me crying when she scraped her knee” quote speaks to this but I’m loathe to bring in material from later chapters), and only started to disintegrate after she found that letter. The fact that Arianne seems to have learned the value of keeping information tight and not making unnecessary risks when it comes to people, as demonstrated by holding back the details of her plan from Arys, holding back her suspicions about the Golden Company from her friends when they are talking about it around the fire, and holding back her true motivations from Darkstar, and that she explicitly says that that is something of value her father taught her, also seems to provide support for this. (I’d also like to point out that that’s a very nuanced exercise of that concept on Arianne’s part, too. She’s letting different people in on different things, and she only really lets everything out the bag in Arys’ case when she needed to get him on her side. That shows an aptitude for conspiring that seems very Doran-like. Definitely runs counter to the running impression on these forums that Arianne is a totally impulsive and unsophisticated player.)

Arianne’s Political Role vs. The “Foolish Little Girl”: A reading of Arianne’s Self-Identity

Another thing that I picked up on was how Arianne’s level of anxiety regarding her coup fluctuated over the course of the chapter in relation to how her plan was actually working out—it starts out relatively high, decreases as the chapter goes on, and ultimately surfaces again as Areo shows up and the plan comes crashing down around her. This, combined with Arianne’s calling herself, at the watershed emotional moment, a “foolish little girl”—an exclamation that always stuck out to me—form the basis of this analysis. Ultimately, I think this chapter is a beautiful portrait of a person jumping into politics for the first time, a realm she has been denied for so long but wanted so badly to be a part of, and the effect it has on her psyche in real time. As much as we love our princess, we must admit that this is her first foray into the world of, in effect, international politics, and it’s a big friggin foray at that—it’s only natural that she has some apprehension about the whole thing. So much can go wrong, and she’s acutely aware of that, but for so long it goes right, just as she planned, without a hitch, up until the very end. It’s the tragedy of the arc from Arianne’s point of view—to have success taken from her just as she gets very, very comfortable in her new role as a political player, only to be brought back into the world she sought to leave behind: a world where, in her mind, she is just “a foolish little girl.” A world where she deserved to have the rulership of Dorne torn out from under her. A world where her father was right all along.

To begin with, when she and Drey and Sylva get to Shandystone and meet Garin and Darkstar, Arys and Myrcella are still to arrive. There’s no indication that Arianne has any forewarning about how the two’s escape from Sunspear has gone, so it will only be once they arrive that Arianne will know for sure that her plans have not been found out or foiled. This uncertainty seems to have Arianne apprehensive or anxious. She remembers uncomfortably what she thought when she was last at Shandystone with her uncle, she only speaks when asked direct questions by Drey and Sylva, she watches Darkstar warily and worries about how he and Arys might get on, and she stays in her head while Garin entertains the others around the fire, thinking to herself about Quentyn and the Golden Company. Finally the lightheartedness of her colleagues becomes too much for her to bear and she needs to leave:

“We need him,” Arianne reminded them. “It may be that we will need his sword, and we will surely need his castle.”

“High Hermitage is not the only castle in Dorne,” Spotted Sylva pointed out, “and you have other knights who love you well. Drey is a knight.”

“I am,” he affirmed. “I have a wonderful horse and a very fine sword, and my valor is second to…well, several actually.”

“More like several hundred, ser,” said Garin.

Arianne left them to their banter. Drey and Spotted Sylva were her dearest friends, aside from her cousin Tyene, and Garin had been teasing her since both of them were drinking from his mother’s teats, but just now she was in no mood for japery.

After Arys and Myrcella arrive, Arianne is noticeably more relieved. She smiles as she approaches Myrcella and introduces her friends with the ease and levity that they, with the exception of Darkstar, displayed earlier around the fire, and when she speaks with Arys alone and he tries to get going on sexy times, she laughs and playfully brings his focus back around to the more important matters at hand:

“He’s fled,” Ser Arys said. “Cersei is offering a lordship to whosoever delivers her his head.” In a tiled inner courtyard half-buried by the drifting sands, he pushed her back against a column to kiss her, and his hand went to her breast. He kissed her long and hard and would have pushed her skirts up but Arianne broke free of him, laughing. “I see that queen-making excites you, ser, but we have no time for this. Later, I promise you.” She touched his cheek. “Did you meet with any problems?”

Arys goes on to tell her that everything went fine and that they have bought a few days with Myrcella’s double’s fake sickness. Knowing that she is in the clear for now, she laughs again as he nuzzles at her neck before they leave Shandystone, and is much more confident and at ease as they set off:

The moon had crowned the Moonmaid as they set out from the dust-dry ruins of Shandystone, striking south and west. Arianne and Ser Arys took the lead, with Myrcella on a frisky mare between them. Garin followed close behind with Spotted Sylva, whilst her two Dornish knights took the rear. We are seven, Arianne realized as they rode. She had not thought of that before, but it seemed a good omen for their cause. Seven riders on their way to glory. One day the singers will make all of us immortal.

As their journey continues, Arianne is able to stay in these lighter spirits with her friends and with Myrcella, and once they spot the Greenblood, she is actually able to bring herself to consider the concrete next steps in her plan. This is something she had not been able to do in her earlier internal monologues about her plans, of which there are only three where, significantly, she is actually alone with only her thoughts. It’s in these monologues where, I would argue, we see Arianne actively grappling with the conflict between her insecurities represented by the idea of “the foolish little girl” and the political identity she is trying to craft and exercise.

In the first such monologue, after she has left the fire and is staring at the stars waiting for Arys and Myrcella to arrive to assuage her anxiety, she speaks very strongly and in very general terms, almost like she is trying to convince herself of something, or maintain a weak confidence in herself and her plan. It’s as if she is not yet comfortable with the idea of herself as a political agent, of asserting of her full political power, but is trying to convince herself that she is:

Do you see that white one, Quentyn? That is Nymeria’s star, burning bright, and that milky band behind her, those are ten thousand ships. She burned as bright as any man, and so shall I. You will not rob me of my birthright!

Later, the second time she is alone with her thoughts is after Arys and Myrcella have successfully arrived and she got news that their doubles were successfully in place and that, as a result, her plans would have a few days to advance before her father had any inkling of what was underway. Her lessening nervousness and growing confidence is reflected in thoughts that are more focused and measured than an impassioned but general exclamation that one’s birthright will not be stolen—she is beginning to realize her reality as a political player, and her thoughts are naturally drifting toward things that reflect that reality:

It is time he put his burdens down, but I will suffer no slights to his honor or his person. She would return him to his Water Gardens, to live out what years remained him surrounded by laughing children and the smell of limes and oranges. Yes, and Quentyn can keep him company. Once I crown Myrcella and free the Sand Snakes, all Dorne will rally to my banners. The Yronwoods might declare for Quentyn, but alone they were no threat. If they went over to Tommen and the Lannisters, she would have Darkstar destroy them root and stem.

The third time, when the Greenblood is in sight and her coup seems safer than ever, is when Arianne actually becomes comfortable and relaxed enough to focus her thoughts even more, down to the concrete next steps of her coup and the logistics she had had worked out in advance. Things have gone just as she predicted, just as she planned—her political identity has been justified against her insecurities, and she can begin to move on, comfortable in that identity and her capacities as such:

The next part should be slow and simple, she thought, up the Greenblood and onto the Vaith, as far as a poleboat can go. That would give her time enough to prepare Myrcella for all that was to come. Beyond Vaith the deep sands waited. They would need help from Sandstone and the Hellholt to make that crossing, but she did not doubt that it would be forthcoming. The Red Viper had been fostered at Sandstone, and Prince Oberyn’s paramour Ellaria Sand was Lord Uller’s natural daughter; four of the Sand Snakes were his granddaughters. I will crown Myrcella at the Hellholt and raise my banners there.

All this paints a picture of a young woman whose nervousness with her treason and, by extension, herself and her position as a political force to be reckoned with, gradually yielded more and more to the comfort and ease that comes with a well-laid plan that goes as one anticipated it would, as it continued to progress as she anticipated it would. As she and Drey and Sylva arrived at Shandystone, as Arys and Myrcella arrived at Shandystone, as they all left and crossed the drylands, and as they saw and approached the Greenblood, there was rightfully less and less cause for concern, and more and more reason to relax and start focusing on the task at hand. This left us with an Arianne capable and ready to carry on up the Greenblood and continue across the deep sands to the Hellholt to begin her coup in earnest—an Arianne comfortable with her new identity as a political force, an identify she had always been denied.

This of course all tumbled down with the conclusion of the chapter, and we see that reflected in Arianne’s thoughts as the events unfold. First, as soon as Areo Hotah appears, “Arianne felt as though an axe had caught her in the belly. It was not supposed to end this way. This was not supposed to happen.” Then, as Arys raced toward the poleboat and was shot with crossbow bolts, Arianne thinks “‘No,’ some girl was shouting, some foolish little girl, ‘no, please, this was not supposed to happen.’” And finally, as Areo takes her into custody: “Arianne raised a tear-streaked face. ‘How could he know?’ she asked the captain. ‘I was so careful. How could he know?’

In the first quote we see Arianne being pulled down from the mental position she had realized by the time they saw the Greenblood—an axe in the belly, a drop in the stomach, a surprise that makes her realize she’s been caught red handed, right as she thought it was all going to be well. In light of that heartbreak, in the second quote we see Arianne buy into an insecurity she has probably harbored since she read the letter as a 14 year old, and that she was more than likely trying to convince herself was not the case when she exclaimed while looking at Nymeria’s star, “You will not rob me of my birthright,” an insecurity that she was trying to justify her political identity against—with the tearing down of that identity that Areo’s appearance represented, Arianne falls right back into the clutches of that insecurity, of thinking that she was, all along, nothing but a "foolish little girl." And in the third quote, we see Arianne, after already having fallen back to seeing herself as nothing but a “foolish little girl,” grappling with the fact that her political identity was ultimately not enough to outmaneuver her father and all he represented by asking Areo over and over, “How could he know? How could he know?” In her mind, it’s her worst fear realized—that her father might have been right about her all along.

Possible Questions for Discussion

It seems Arianne’s plan went pretty well, except for the fact that her father found out about it and made moves to put an end to it after the wheels were already moving. How successful could her coup have been if it hadn’t been found out? Were there gaps in her logic that would have come back to bite her in the ass? Would she perhaps have had better luck if her father was not someone so adept at figuring shit out, a la JCRB’s Someone Always Tells?

When Arianne is being apprehended, she notes “One of the guardsmen jerked her to her feet. He wore her father’s colors.” Why is she distancing herself from her house’s colors?

Early in the chapter, when the party is sitting around the fire waiting for Arys and Myrcella to show up, everyone enjoys a skin of summerwine except for Darkstar. Why do we think that is? Does he just like to keep his wits about him? Did he have little faith in Arianne’s plan and expect things to go south?

When Darkstar approaches Arianne early in the chapter after he believes he had a piss, he is half-illuminated by starlight and half-shadowed in darkness. The starlight seems like an obvious reference to the sigil of House Dayne. Could the darkness perhaps give us some ideas as to who his other parent was, if we assume he has a notable parent?

Aaaaaaand another Darkstar one: As Arianne and Darkstar are having their conversation, the text reads: “The one in her own den.” Ser Gerold drew his sword. It glimmered in the starlight, sharp as lies. “This is how you start a war. Not with a crown of gold, but with a blade of steel.” What are the lies Arianne is referring to?

Why exactly did Arys intervene? We had his point of view in the last chapter, but not this time around. Could it be that there are clues in his own POV chapter for why he did what he did? Was he just so concerned about a tarnish to his honor that he would have rather died than lived? We know Arys likes the idea of rescuing a damsel in distress—does his decision to fight have something to do with seeing Arianne as a victim of her father?

We know from The Soiled Knight that it is noticeably autumn in Dorne in the evenings. This, apparently, does not make the deserts of Dorne any less deadly during the day, as both Arianne and Darkstar express concern about having to cross the desert after the sun comes up and Arys is very obviously affected (and even that is just across the drylands, and not the deep sands). Do we think the deserts are still deadly in the day when winter comes? Would the natural defenses of the deserts be a viable option in the wintertime, or would the daytime temperatures be low enough that foreign invaders would be able to survive an invasion? (This is a question that I’ve always wondered about).

Arianne’s veil is a pale blue and yellow cloth, and her helm is of copper. Later on, when they reach the Greenblood, the text remarks “Arianne Martell had crossed the Mander once, when she had gone with three of the Sand Snakes to visit Tyene’s mother. Compared to that mighty waterway, the Greenblood was scarce worthy of the name of river, yet it remained the life of Dorne. It took its name from the murky green of its sluggish waters; but as they approached, the sunlight seemed to turn those waters gold.” And later, after Arys loses his head, it was “spinning through the air. It landed in amongst the reeds, and the Greenblood swallowed up the red with a soft splash.” Why the parallel in colors? Is this symbolic of anything? Am I reading wayyyy too much into it?

Random Observations/Thoughts

This chapter is as far out into Dorne as a region we get until Arianne’s Winds chapter. That’s kind of neat to think about, and makes me anxious for Areo Hotah’s chapters in the next book. It will be awesome to see more of Dorne!

Arianne seems to actually have some like hardcore outdoor desert survival experience. I imagine that shit is standard for all Dornishmen, but it’s still pretty cool that our princess knows her way in the wilds. She gets snarky with Darkstar when he presumes to suggest that they speed up because the sun is coming, telling him “I know the sands as well as you do, ser,” and knows they are approaching the Greenblood by a hawk in the air before they even start to see plant life. Badass.

In various discussions about Dorne that I’ve seen/participated in (think there might have even been one in our Dornish Debates/Appreciation threads), the question often arises, “Why didn’t the Martells just get rid of the Yronwoods, if there’s always been a rivalry and they’ve sided with the Blackfyres against the Martells three times?” It’s interesting to note that Arianne actually proposes that in this chapter: “Once I crown Myrcella and free the Sand Snakes, all Dorne will rally to my banners. The Yronwoods might declare for Quentyn, but alone they were no threat. If they went over to Tommen and the Lannisters, she would have Darkstar destroy them root and stem.”

We get a neat little look at Dornish irrigation here: “Beyond a line of stony hills the grass grew greener and more lush, and there were lemon orchards watered by a spider’s web of old canals. Garin was the first to spy the river glimmering green.” As someone whose, swear to god, favorite class in college was called Water in the American West and was basically a history of water usage for agriculture in the American West, this was really cool to see for me. Probably not for anyone else though, haha!

Doran’s orders to Areo were to kill everyone except Arianne and Myrcella if they refused to surrender. That included the heirs to both Lemonwood and Spottswood, as well as a Kingsguard. It goes to show just how much he wasn’t fucking around with this now that the plan was actually in action.

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That's it guys, those are my thoughts on the chapter! (For now, at least...hehehe.) I hope my second analysis was clear enough and made sense, it was being difficult so I had to rework it a couple times and make sure all the ideas were clear--if it's not, I'm happy to discuss it further. And yeah if you guys have any questions or anything by all means let me know! I'll be gone for a few hours but I should be back this afternoon to get into it and hear what you all thought of the chapter.

LET THE DISCUSSION COMMENCE!

[Julia Martell]

As someone who's obsessed with Arianne's self-concept, Thanks DV for the great summary and analysis.

Two quick point, since I'm suppose to be working. :blushing:

First off, our girl gets criticized for treating the Game of Thrones like a game. A "jolly lark" is a term I've seen used. But the Arianne in this chapter is deadly serious. She's constantly going over the plan in her head and just oozing anxiety everywhere, and even when she waxes lyrical, it's more of a desperate attempt to reassure herself, rather than romanticism.

Secondly, to harp on my point from last week about winning dornishmen and influencing sexist dudes from the Reach. The different ways she treats Darkstar and Ser Arys, both not incidentally her lovers, is illustrative of this. With Darkstar, the dronishman, she's Arianne the Princess. She's all sharp wit and assertive commands. Can't you just hear the acerbic tone of her "How was your piss?" With Arys, she's a lot softer, and even giggly. She gently redirects him instead of telling him off, like she did with Darkstar.

Also, I don't think you get many point for manipulating children, but seriously:

A: Yo, Myrcella! Jump!

M: Of course, Princess Arianne. How high?

[Chebyshov]

First and foremost, amazing summary & analysis, DV! :bowdown: . This was incredibly thought provoking, and helped me connect a lot of dots that had been elluding me previously. So let's get to it!

Analysis

Relationship with her Brother and her Father

I'm not likely to forget, because the points in this section were excellent, but remind me to reference back to this portion when we get to the TWOW sample chapter re: her thoughts on Quentyn.

Here we see Doran thought of not as a conspirator trying to steal away Arianne’s birthright, but as an old man, ailing and tired and deserving to have the burden of rule lifted from his shoulders. She thinks he deserves to be at peace in his sanctuary of the Water Gardens after his and Quentyn’s coup is foiled, not punished. This is in stark contrast to how she implies Quentyn will be exiled to the Gardens, for whom it will be a prison, not a sanctuary. This difference in feelings towards the two is evidenced further given the tone taken with her brother in the bits from the first passage. She calls Quentyn out as the one fit to steal her birthright, not her father, and implies that she has outsmarted him, not her father, by discovering of his time in the Planky Town. It’s a strange, noticeable discrepancy.

Taking the differences in attitude toward her brother and father in their scheming and the differences in attitude toward what would be their punishment into account, we almost get the impression that the conspiracy that she believes is going on is effectively the brainchild of Quentyn’s ambition and that her father has just been complicit in her sibling’s scheming. This is ironic, given the circumstances around when she first found out about the conspiracy. I think it goes to demonstrate the deep-seated, powerful bond Arianne has with her father, in much the same way that we believe that she has been acting out since she was young just to get a rise out of him. Arianne values her father and her relationship with him, even if she is internally very conflicted about that relationship. She can stand to hold Quentyn in contempt for the conspiracy because she hardly knows him—she has a much more difficult time doing the same for her father. Indeed, she is still wondering what her father would think of her taking Darkstar as a consort even as she is plotting to overthrow him. Their relationship is much deeper, and they value each other's opinions of the other more, than either of them can admit, I think.

I think you hit the nail on the head there. I'm not sure it's that she views the plan as Quentyn's brainchild (the letter is pretty damn incriminating on Doran's end), but more that she's a very compassionate and sensitive. No matter what her relationship with Doran was, she's been around him and interacting with him every day, save the past 2 years. She barely remembers Quentyn; he's practically a stranger to him, being raised in a foreign place by someone with whom Arianne takes issue (even with "Criston Cole reborn" being hyperbole, she has her reasons to be wary of Yronwood).

I never thought about her considering Doran's thoughts on her "match" with Darkstar before...excellent catch! She's about to conspire to overthrow him, and yet his approval still matters. When she first tells Arys of her concerns about her birthright, she frames her relationship with Doran like this:

You do not know my father. I have been disappointing him since I first arrived in this world without a cock. Half a dozen times he has tried to marry me to toothless greybeards, each more contemptible than the last. He never commanded me to wed them, I grant you, but the offers alone prove how little he regards me.

She takes their stilted relationship very personally...it's about his disappointment and his disregard for her. Arianne so desperately wants his approval (yet would never admit this), that it's clear how much she values and loves him, despite all the anger. This is why she will allow no "slights to his honor or his person," and even wants to give him the comfort of his favorite spot in Dorne and his son. That is such a powerful, sympathetic sentiment coming from her; can you imagine Cersei being so kind to anyone who would seek to remove her from power?

It makes me wonder if their relationship as she was growing up was a lot stronger than we’ve gotten told (the “you were the girl that came to me crying when she scraped her knee” quote speaks to this but I’m loathe to bring in material from later chapters), and only started to disintegrate after she found that letter. The fact that Arianne seems to have learned the value of keeping information tight and not making unnecessary risks when it comes to people, as demonstrated by holding back the details of her plan from Arys, holding back her suspicions about the Golden Company from her friends when they are talking about it around the fire, and holding back her true motivations from Darkstar, and that she explicitly says that that is something of value her father taught her, also seems to provide support for this. (I’d also like to point out that that’s a very nuanced exercise of that concept on Arianne’s part, too. She’s letting different people in on different things, and she only really lets everything out the bag in Arys’ case when she needed to get him on her side. That shows an aptitude for conspiring that seems very Doran-like. Definitely runs counter to the running impression on these forums that Arianne is a totally impulsive and unsophisticated player.)

I'm going to quote this paragraph often and throw it in the face of people who call her dumb. 100%

Arianne’s Political Role vs. The “Foolish Little Girl”: A reading of Arianne’s Self-Identity

<snip>

In the first such monologue, after she has left the fire and is staring at the stars waiting for Arys and Myrcella to arrive to assuage her anxiety, she speaks very strongly and in very general terms, almost like she is trying to convince herself of something, or maintain a weak confidence in herself and her plan. It’s as if she is not yet comfortable with the idea of herself as a political agent, of asserting of her full political power, but is trying to convince herself that she is:

Later, the second time she is alone with her thoughts is after Arys and Myrcella have successfully arrived and she got news that their doubles were successfully in place and that, as a result, her plans would have a few days to advance before her father had any inkling of what was underway. Her lessening nervousness and growing confidence is reflected in thoughts that are more focused and measured than an impassioned but general exclamation that one’s birthright will not be stolen—she is beginning to realize her reality as a political player, and her thoughts are naturally drifting toward things that reflect that reality:

The third time, when the Greenblood is in sight and her coup seems safer than ever, is when Arianne actually becomes comfortable and relaxed enough to focus her thoughts even more, down to the concrete next steps of her coup and the logistics she had had worked out in advance. Things have gone just as she predicted, just as she planned—her political identity has been justified against her insecurities, and she can begin to move on, comfortable in that identity and her capacities as such:

All this paints a picture of a young woman whose nervousness with her treason and, by extension, herself and her position as a political force to be reckoned with, gradually yielded more and more to the comfort and ease that comes with a well-laid plan that goes as one anticipated it would, as it continued to progress as she anticipated it would. As she and Drey and Sylva arrived at Shandystone, as Arys and Myrcella arrived at Shandystone, as they all left and crossed the drylands, and as they saw and approached the Greenblood, there was rightfully less and less cause for concern, and more and more reason to relax and start focusing on the task at hand. This left us with an Arianne capable and ready to carry on up the Greenblood and continue across the deep sands to the Hellholt to begin her coup in earnest—an Arianne comfortable with her new identity as a political force, an identify she had always been denied.

I snipped some for length, but this was an amazing look at her psychological progression throughout the chapter. Arianne is definitely extroverted and often exuberant, but it's unfair that people see these personality traits and make her out to be some kind of moron. It's clear here that she's stayed in her head throughout the entire chapter, even with Garin and Drey's boisterous banter (I ship it) keeping the mood light. She knows what's at stake, and she knows how to be serious when necessary. Yes, she steals a glance and Gerold, but she's also sizing him up as a co-conspirator, and noting that which concerns her (cruel eyes and mouth...potential to upset Arys).

Even when Arianne is more relaxed when things are going well, her thoughts are on logistics. When she puts her mind to something, it's clear she gives it her full attention. Arys's flirtation almost irritates her, as there's a much more important task at hand. So much for her being so lecherous. Poor Arys, too. That was probably the first time he got up the nerve to be so openly randy around her.

This of course all tumbled down with the conclusion of the chapter, and we see that reflected in Arianne’s thoughts as the events unfold. First, as soon as Areo Hotah appears, “Arianne felt as though an axe had caught her in the belly. It was not supposed to end this way. This was not supposed to happen.” Then, as Arys raced toward the poleboat and was shot with crossbow bolts, Arianne thinks “‘No,’ some girl was shouting, some foolish little girl, ‘no, please, this was not supposed to happen.’” And finally, as Areo takes her into custody: “Arianne raised a tear-streaked face. ‘How could he know?’ she asked the captain. ‘I was so careful. How could he know?’

In the first quote we see Arianne being pulled down from the mental position she had realized by the time they saw the Greenblood—an axe in the belly, a drop in the stomach, a surprise that makes her realize she’s been caught red handed, right as she thought it was all going to be well. In light of that heartbreak, in the second quote we see Arianne buy into an insecurity she has probably harbored since she read the letter as a 14 year old, and that she was more than likely trying to convince herself was not the case when she exclaimed while looking at Nymeria’s star, “You will not rob me of my birthright,” an insecurity that she was trying to justify her political identity against—with the tearing down of that identity that Areo’s appearance represented, Arianne falls right back into the clutches of that insecurity, of thinking that she was, all along, nothing but a "foolish little girl." And in the third quote, we see Arianne, after already having fallen back to seeing herself as nothing but a “foolish little girl,” grappling with the fact that her political identity was ultimately not enough to outmaneuver her father and all he represented by asking Areo over and over, “How could he know? How could he know?” In her mind, it’s her worst fear realized—that her father might have been right about her all along.

This made me so sad, but it's an excellent point. Arianne's worst fear, that her father is justified in his disappointment, is basically confirmed here. Her immediate self-deprecation is telling of how much she carries around these insecurities, and how much Doran's apparent dismissal of her value has affected her. Her retching is likely in part due to Arys's horrifying death, but also in part her body's response to this emotionally ripping moment for her.

I have much and more to say, but need to prep for a meeting. This is such a great chapter in general, and this deep examination of her cognitive processes is certainly a fruitful one.

Secondly, to harp on my point from last week about winning dornishmen and influencing sexist dudes from the Reach. The different ways she treats Darkstar and Ser Arys, both not incidentally her lovers, is illustrative of this. With Darkstar, the dronishman, she's Arianne the Princess. She's all sharp wit and assertive commands. Can't you just hear the acerbic tone of her "How was your piss?" With Arys, she's a lot softer, and even giggly. She gently redirects him instead of telling him off, like she did with Darkstar.

I love this. She clearly is highly intelligent and intuitive, and deserves far more praise than she gets 'round here. LF may have said it best (loathe as I am to give him credit), "Everyone wants something, Alayne. And when you know what a man wants you know who he is, and how to move him." Arianne has the makings to be a fantastic player.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Yay, the Queenmaker!!! :D

Relationship with her Brother and her Father

Here we see Doran thought of not as a conspirator trying to steal away Ariannes birthright, but as an old man, ailing and tired and deserving to have the burden of rule lifted from his shoulders. She thinks he deserves to be at peace in his sanctuary of the Water Gardens after his and Quentyns coup is foiled, not punished. This is in stark contrast to how she implies Quentyn will be exiled to the Gardens, for whom it will be a prison, not a sanctuary. This difference in feelings towards the two is evidenced further given the tone taken with her brother in the bits from the first passage. She calls Quentyn out as the one fit to steal her birthright, not her father, and implies that she has outsmarted him, not her father, by discovering of his time in the Planky Town. Its a strange, noticeable discrepancy.

Hmm. It would be easier for Arianne to dislike Quentyn.. He's been away most of her life, whereas Doran was constantly present (up until two years ago). It's easier to dislike (don't really want to say hate) someone who's not around, then the person who is always around..

The discrepancy is indeed a strange one. She read Dorans letter.. She can't have believed that a 9 year old boy had been conspiring against her, so she must have known that the contents of the letter were all Doran.. And while she blames both men, she seems to be blaming Quentyn a bit more.

Taking the differences in attitude toward her brother and father in their scheming and the differences in attitude toward what would be their punishment into account, we almost get the impression that the conspiracy that she believes is going on is effectively the brainchild of Quentyns ambition and that her father has just been complicit in her siblings scheming. This is ironic, given the circumstances around when she first found out about the conspiracy. I think it goes to demonstrate the deep-seated, powerful bond Arianne has with her father, in much the same way that we believe that she has been acting out since she was young just to get a rise out of him. Arianne values her father and her relationship with him, even if she is internally very conflicted about that relationship. She can stand to hold Quentyn in contempt for the conspiracy because she hardly knows himshe has a much more difficult time doing the same for her father. Indeed, she is still wondering what her father would think of her taking Darkstar as a consort even as she is plotting to overthrow him. Their relationship is much deeper, and they value each other's opinions of the other more, than either of them can admit, I think.

It makes me wonder if their relationship as she was growing up was a lot stronger than weve gotten told (the you were the girl that came to me crying when she scraped her knee quote speaks to this but Im loathe to bring in material from later chapters), and only started to disintegrate after she found that letter. The fact that Arianne seems to have learned the value of keeping information tight and not making unnecessary risks when it comes to people, as demonstrated by holding back the details of her plan from Arys, holding back her suspicions about the Golden Company from her friends when they are talking about it around the fire, and holding back her true motivations from Darkstar, and that she explicitly says that that is something of value her father taught her, also seems to provide support for this. (Id also like to point out that thats a very nuanced exercise of that concept on Ariannes part, too. Shes letting different people in on different things, and she only really lets everything out the bag in Arys case when she needed to get him on her side. That shows an aptitude for conspiring that seems very Doran-like. Definitely runs counter to the running impression on these forums that Arianne is a totally impulsive and unsophisticated player.)

Whether the relationships of Arianne and Doran can truly br called deep, I'm not sure. For such a relationship, you have to be able to tell each other secrets, to confide in one another, to trust and Doran obviously did not do that.

We see a father who is trying to protect his daughter by leaving her in the dark, but he is effectively trying too hard, which caused harm in its own way. And Arianne felt hurt and betrayed.. I'm guessing that the relationship went down hill ever since that letter was discovered.

I agree that their relationship prior to the letter had been a good one. I mean, a little girl who runs to her father when she hurts her knee? Who goes to kiss her father goodnight? There's no mention of kissing Mellario goodnight.. We know that Arianne hadn't been looking for Mellario that night (though it is always possible that she would have gone looking for Mellario after kissing Doran goodnight), because otherwise she would have found her parents arguing, not just Doran's empty chambers. And all of Doran's wisdomes, the lessons he taught her.. I have a little bit on that in my analysis, I'll expand there.

It seems Ariannes plan went pretty well, except for the fact that her father found out about it and made moves to put an end to it after the wheels were already moving. How successful could her coup have been if it hadnt been found out? Were there gaps in her logic that would have come back to bite her in the ass? Would she perhaps have had better luck if her father was not someone so adept at figuring shit out, a la JCRBs Someone Always Tells?

A possible gap in logic might have been that we are not yet sure what makes a coronation an actual coronation.. Do you need a High Septon? And if the high septon is not available, a septon who was appointed as his replacement?

Of course, also the numbers of Dorne would come into play. Despite my believes that Dorne indeed has 50.000 fighters (or something close to that, as I refuse to believe that Doran would send Quentyn out with lies about the size of the Dornish armies - NEVER piss off the person who holds the fire breathing dragons, by lying about the size of the one thing she desperately needs: an army), those are not enough against the combined Lannister/Tyrell forces, naturally. That's where Arianne would have eventually failed. And, of course, despite Arianne's believe that Dorne would rise for her, how certain about that are we that the high lords would actually choose her? Arianne believes they'll choose her, but we also see how she keeps trying to reassure herself about her own plot, never facing the possibility that she migth actually lose.

When Arianne is being apprehended, she notes One of the guardsmen jerked her to her feet. He wore her fathers colors. Why is she distancing herself from her houses colors?

I doubt there's much behind this. Doran is the head of the house, the guardsman is wearing the colours of House Martell. Just to show that it wasn't the case that Hotah followed them on his own (and made better time) and found the guards of another noble house willing to aid him in arresting the plot. Just that i it was indeed a guardsman from Sunspear/the Water Gardens who was aiding Hotah.. Possibly one of the men that Hotah referred to in The Captain of Guards ("good, loyal men, good dornishmen"). Thereby also explaining that Arianne's plot isn't known in Dorne (because if the guard who helped arresting her was part of someone else's household, he would have eventually returned home, and told... especially after a few drinks).

Early in the chapter, when the party is sitting around the fire waiting for Arys and Myrcella to show up, everyone enjoys a skin of summerwine except for Darkstar. Why do we think that is? Does he just like to keep his wits about him? Did he have little faith in Ariannes plan and expect things to go south?

Perhaps he indeed just wants to keep his wits about. The same as Roose Bolton not drinking any wine, IIRC. He wants to be ready for the unexpectable.

When Darkstar approaches Arianne early in the chapter after he believes he had a piss, he is half-illuminated by starlight and half-shadowed in darkness. The starlight seems like an obvious reference to the sigil of House Dayne. Could the darkness perhaps give us some ideas as to who his other parent was, if we assume he has a notable parent?

Not just a play on his name? Dark (shadows) + Star (bright) = Darkstar?

He could be the heir of a female too, btw ;) This is Dorne, where the ruling woman can give her last name to her children.

Why exactly did Arys intervene? We had his point of view in the last chapter, but not this time around. Could it be that there are clues in his own POV chapter for why he did what he did? Was he just so concerned about a tarnish to his honor that he would have rather died than lived? We know Arys likes the idea of rescuing a damsel in distressdoes his decision to fight have something to do with seeing Arianne as a victim of her father?

Interestingly enough, this chapter was read once at a con, and in that early, early draft, Arys survived..

Whoever wrote this stated that there was a big lack of sleep, and the names are spelled completely wrong, but still..

It begins with arianne waiting outside somewhere in a field with some companions: Andrey Dalt of Lemonwood (called Dray), Lady Silver something (called Spotted Silver), Gay Garren (a "green orphan" who was arianne's milk brother) and Ser Gerald Dayne of Starfall called the Black Star, who is also arianne's lover. someone says some thing about gazing into a pool and seeing you're true love's face (someone will probably need to correct me on that :p )and arianne remembers how she used to dream that some handsome scoundrel would kidnap her and take her out and ravish her... definitely another hot dornish woman (yay!) arianne thinks that ser gerald is the handsomest man she's ever seen and is afraid that if arys oakheart finds out that gerald is her lover they would fight to the death. she doesn't know who would win.

we hear some news about fighting in the free cities. the qohori have revolted, throwing down the statue of the black goat (i think). myr, tyrosh and lys are also mentioned, some of them are fighting, someone else will have to elaborate on that. i pay more attention to the sex parts than the free city war parts ;)

arianne is musing about her brother quentin, who is ahead of her in the succession. he was sent away for some reason but she knows that he has been seen nearby disguised as a merchant.

then we find out that mycella has indeed been crowned by the dornish (whether by doran or just arianne did the crowning i am not sure). gerald mentions just killing myrcella, arianne says that arys will defend her with his life, and gerald replies " Daynes have been killing Oakhearts for hundreds (or was it thousands?) of yeats. arianne replies "and Oakhearts have been killing Daynes for just as many."

the see arys approaching with myrcella. it is night time, as it is too hot to ride in the day. arianne's companions bow to her calling her "your grace" and such, and myrcella is confused. "why are they calling me that, arianne?" she asks when she recognizes ariannce. arianne explains that since myrcella is older than tommen (pronounced "tome-in," btw, she is actually the rightful heir to the iron throne. myrcella seems wary but easily convinced.

at one point arys pushes arianne up against a tree and starts fondling her, but she laughs and says "later." her thoughts seem to say that though she likes arys in bed, she finds him rather ponderous and boring.

myrcella asks gerald dayne if he was related to the famous sword of the morning. gerald says he is, and from starfall. arys says "he was a great knight" and gerald says "he had a great SWORD." i think it was at this point where myrella asks is he is the SOTM, or if he uses Dawn, and gerald replies "no, i am of the night, not the morning" (or something).

trystane had wanted to come with arys and myrcella, but he did not in the end. arys and mycella left "stunt doubles" as it were, back at sunspear. myrcella curled her doubles hair herself, a distant lannister cousin. arys' double is sam swyft.

and so they ride all night. they are going to the "green blood," a river where the "green orphans" live. we learn they are not truly orphans, but that their mother is the great river, Mother Rhoyne. they are the blood of the rhoynars. there was mention of a fight with the rhoynes and the targs, and how a king sent his dragon to go eat elephants (lol).

when they dismount, arys says something to arianne about how she needs a veil to cover her face because otherwise her beauty would overwhelm that of the sun., something like that. arianne wonders how long it took him to come up with that compliment. she thinks of ayrs "wit and he were strangers." :p

they see trees called sand beggars, which grow only near water. they know they are close. arianne means to crown myrcella and raise her banners at hellholt. they will follow the green blood to the vaith and then to hellholt.

they come to a village and arianne sees oroh hatah (sp?) she realizes they are caught. oroh says that doran order him and his guard to bring back arianne and mycella safely, but to kill their companions if they do not yield. arys wasnts to fight for "his princess" at first (which one?) but ariannce calms him. she asks oroh, "how did you know?" and he replies, "how else? someone told."

Interestingly enough, only the ending of that chapter sounds different. So it is possible that GRRM killed Arys off to truly teach Arianne a lesson: this is not a game.

Arys' own motivations, then, perhaps, were indeed because he felt ashamed.. Though I´m guessing there almost has to be more to it.. He´s all about his knightly vows, yet suddenly willingly abandons Myrcella´s side, the person he has sworn to protect?

We know from The Soiled Knight that it is noticeably autumn in Dorne in the evenings. This, apparently, does not make the deserts of Dorne any less deadly during the day, as both Arianne and Darkstar express concern about having to cross the desert after the sun comes up and Arys is very obviously affected (and even that is just across the drylands, and not the deep sands). Do we think the deserts are still deadly in the day when winter comes? Would the natural defenses of the deserts be a viable option in the wintertime, or would the daytime temperatures be low enough that foreign invaders would be able to survive an invasion? (This is a question that Ive always wondered about).

As winter is only slowly moving south, why wouldn't autumn? When it finally starts to snow in KL, summer ended 1,5 years ago.. And that is months after Arianne in the desert.. So perhaps the autumn weather hadn't completely set in yet.

Though it indeed sounds rather hot there. I have no idea how that goes in real-life desserts.. during winter?

Perhaps the World Book with the tale of the Conquest of Dorne will give a hint on this, if either the Conquest, or the subsequent Rebellion, took place in the winter/autumn?

[Dornish Vinegar]

As someone who's obsessed with Arianne's self-concept, Thanks DV for the great summary and analysis.

Two quick point, since I'm suppose to be working. :blushing:

First off, our girl gets criticized for treating the Game of Thrones like a game. A "jolly lark" is a term I've seen used. But the Arianne in this chapter is deadly serious. She's constantly going over the plan in her head and just oozing anxiety everywhere, and even when she waxes lyrical, it's more of a desperate attempt to reassure herself, rather than romanticism.

Secondly, to harp on my point from last week about winning dornishmen and influencing sexist dudes from the Reach. The different ways she treats Darkstar and Ser Arys, both not incidentally her lovers, is illustrative of this. With Darkstar, the dronishman, she's Arianne the Princess. She's all sharp wit and assertive commands. Can't you just hear the acerbic tone of her "How was your piss?" With Arys, she's a lot softer, and even giggly. She gently redirects him instead of telling him off, like she did with Darkstar.

Also, I don't think you get many point for manipulating children, but seriously:

A: Yo, Myrcella! Jump!

M: Of course, Princess Arianne. How high?

Really good call on her differing approaches to Darkstar and Arys, that's a really cool point I did not pick up on. She's a verrrrry good reader of people and how to approach them. She's extremely adept at navigating those situations. We even see it with Myrcella, when she arrives with Arys and is very immediately confused--Arianne can realize that and turn on the loving mentor in a snap. (And seriously yeah, if Arianne couldn't figure how best to interact with Myrcella, the little princess wouldn't be wrapped around her finger as much as she is. It's incredible. It's not too honorable, like you said, but I think it's at least a little mitigated by the fact that I think Arianne is genuinely fond of Myrcella).

First and foremost, amazing summary & analysis, DV! :bowdown: . This was incredibly thought provoking, and helped me connect a lot of dots that had been elluding me previously. So let's get to it!

I'm not likely to forget, because the points in this section were excellent, but remind me to reference back to this portion when we get to the TWOW sample chapter re: her thoughts on Quentyn.

I think you hit the nail on the head there. I'm not sure it's that she views the plan as Quentyn's brainchild (the letter is pretty damn incriminating on Doran's end), but more that she's a very compassionate and sensitive. No matter what her relationship with Doran was, she's been around him and interacting with him every day, save the past 2 years. She barely remembers Quentyn; he's practically a stranger to him, being raised in a foreign place by someone with whom Arianne takes issue (even with "Criston Cole reborn" being hyperbole, she has her reasons to be wary of Yronwood).

I never thought about her considering Doran's thoughts on her "match" with Darkstar before...excellent catch! She's about to conspire to overthrow him, and yet his approval still matters. When she first tells Arys of her concerns about her birthright, she frames her relationship with Doran like this:

You do not know my father. I have been disappointing him since I first arrived in this world without a cock. Half a dozen times he has tried to marry me to toothless greybeards, each more contemptible than the last. He never commanded me to wed them, I grant you, but the offers alone prove how little he regards me.

She takes their stilted relationship very personally...it's about his disappointment and his disregard for her. Arianne so desperately wants his approval (yet would never admit this), that it's clear how much she values and loves him, despite all the anger. This is why she will allow no "slights to his honor or his person," and even wants to give him the comfort of his favorite spot in Dorne and his son. That is such a powerful, sympathetic sentiment coming from her; can you imagine Cersei being so kind to anyone who would seek to remove her from power?

I'm going to quote this paragraph often and throw it in the face of people who call her dumb. 100%

That's a great catch from the last chapter! I didn't remember that at all, but it plays right into this analysis. She would never admit it, but her thinking that she's been a disappointment to him affects her sooo much. It's a great juxtaposition for her character: being at once so frustrated with her father at the same time that she's holding him in such high esteem.

I snipped some for length, but this was an amazing look at her psychological progression throughout the chapter. Arianne is definitely extroverted and often exuberant, but it's unfair that people see these personality traits and make her out to be some kind of moron. It's clear here that she's stayed in her head throughout the entire chapter, even with Garin and Drey's boisterous banter (I ship it) keeping the mood light. She knows what's at stake, and she knows how to be serious when necessary. Yes, she steals a glance and Gerold, but she's also sizing him up as a co-conspirator, and noting that which concerns her (cruel eyes and mouth...potential to upset Arys).

Even when Arianne is more relaxed when things are going well, her thoughts are on logistics. When she puts her mind to something, it's clear she gives it her full attention. Arys's flirtation almost irritates her, as there's a much more important task at hand. So much for her being so lecherous. Poor Arys, too. That was probably the first time he got up the nerve to be so openly randy around her.

Yep, she's dead serious the whole time. It's really striking, actually, just how intense she is. It's curious that she has such a reputation for frivolity and shallowness among the readership, because we definitely don't see that here, like, in any way. I think some of this might come from knowing her really only from Arys' point of view at this point in the story when we're dropped into her head for her coup, and so we're likely to carry over that sexy, provocative, ambitious but lustful male-gazey vision of Arianne into this chapter and let us bias our perception of her and her actions. When we read it separate from that bias, we can see just how rightfully serious she is being. She knows what she's getting into.

This made me so sad, but it's an excellent point. Arianne's worst fear, that her father is justified in his disappointment, is basically confirmed here. Her immediate self-deprecation is telling of how much she carries around these insecurities, and how much Doran's apparent dismissal of her value has affected her. Her retching is likely in part due to Arys's horrifying death, but also in part her body's response to this emotionally ripping moment for her.

I have much and more to say, but need to prep for a meeting. This is such a great chapter in general, and this deep examination of her cognitive processes is certainly a fruitful one.

It's so, so sad. I don't know if this kind of analysis is really obvious or what, but as I was writing it out and connecting the dots, I could just feel my heart sinking. There's a lot more going on here that just her coup failing. It's really, really heartwrenching.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Huh, weird.. I had a lot more in my post from last night, but for some strange reason, it seems that got deleted during posting..

Edit: and I place my post, and everything but 1 quote box is deleted.. No time to type everything yet again.. So I'll try again later..

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Ok, another attempt.. Three times is the charm, right?

So I have been trying to reply to the random observations and thoughts :)

Random Observations/Thoughts

This chapter is as far out into Dorne as a region we get until Arianne’s Winds chapter. That’s kind of neat to think about, and makes me anxious for Areo Hotah’s chapters in the next book. It will be awesome to see more of Dorne!

Yes! If only for this, Hotah needs to survive. I am a bit sad that Arianne will eventually leave Dorne, though, as we've seen the Riverlands and the North so much, but Dorne so little.

Of course, I simply want Hotah to survive to show more Doran, because's he's interesting, but seeing more of Dorne.. Yes, I want that.

Arianne seems to actually have some like hardcore outdoor desert survival experience. I imagine that shit is standard for all Dornishmen, but it’s still pretty cool that our princess knows her way in the wilds. She gets snarky with Darkstar when he presumes to suggest that they speed up because the sun is coming, telling him “I know the sands as well as you do, ser,” and knows they are approaching the Greenblood by a hawk in the air before they even start to see plant life. Badass.

It shows both Arianne's nature, and the Dornish culture. That Arianne is more than just the typical princess in a pretty dress who sings and dances and always smiles so innocently. She's a survivor.. She's got it in her to survive in difficult times, in difficult surroundings. She just needs to learn a couple of more lessons of the game, and then she's ready to go!

In various discussions about Dorne that I’ve seen/participated in (think there might have even been one in our Dornish Debates/Appreciation threads), the question often arises, “Why didn’t the Martells just get rid of the Yronwoods, if there’s always been a rivalry and they’ve sided with the Blackfyres against the Martells three times?” It’s interesting to note that Arianne actually proposes that in this chapter: “Once I crown Myrcella and free the Sand Snakes, all Dorne will rally to my banners. The Yronwoods might declare for Quentyn, but alone they were no threat. If they went over to Tommen and the Lannisters, she would have Darkstar destroy them root and stem.”

That actually is rather logical, that Yronwood has survived for so long:

Queen Rhaenyra was counseled by her Black Small Council to kill every single Baratheon and Lannister, and give Storm's End and Casterly Rock to those more loyal to Rhaenyra's cause. Lord Corlys Velaryon, when he heard, said

“Half the lords of Westeros will turn against us if we are so cruel as to destroy two such ancient and noble houses,” Lord Corlys said.

House Yronwood is one of the most ancient houses of Dorne. Destroying them, Castamere-style, would send the wrong kind of message to the rest of Dorne.

Besides, it was never the decision of House Martell to kill House Yronwood. That was the decision of the Iron Throne, just as it was the decision of the Iron Throne to punish Eustace Osgrey by taking his daughter and coin and parts of his lands, and not the decision of House Tyrell, Osgrey´s overlord.

A treatment like Tywin gave the Reyne´s and Tarbecks, would show that bending the knee to House Martell has got no use: you have to allow your lords to be accepted back into your peace, because if you don't, should they ever think about rebelling, they will continue fighting, knowing that the only other option is death. Allow them a chance to re-enter the peace, and they'll be much more likely to end such rebellions and fights and small wars than when they know that their only options are rebelling and winning, or death.

[Tyene's Double Daggers]

I dont think I have much value to add after these crazy good posts, but I do want to respond to "It seems Arianne’s plan went pretty well, except for the fact that her father found out about it and made moves to put an end to it after the wheels were already moving. How successful could her coup have been if it hadn’t been found out? Were there gaps in her logic that would have come back to bite her in the ass? Would she perhaps have had better luck if her father was not someone so adept at figuring shit out, a la JCRB’s Someone Always Tells?"

Wasnt another gap in her logic besides the numbers of Dorne also what Darkstar told her? That the lion isnt so easily provoked? He thought crowning Mrycella wouldn't lead to war, but killing her would. The lannisters could have tried to ignore her being "queen" and just laugh and say "oh those stupid dornish...we'll set the record straight when they return her home."