Dornish Debates iii: Of Kings and Courts

[I S**t Gold]

I know! It’s so much work when you have realistic, three dimensional characters! I feel like watching Pokemon with my son sometimes, just to give my brain a break.

Yeah, GRRM is evil!

Snip.

With the generation gap idea I think it's worth exploring, but maybe if we expand it to the rest of Westeros it get interesting. If we take three of the rulers who seem 'most' capable from that generation (I'm just going to take Ned, Tywin and Doran) they all seem to have been shaped by a personal injustice. With Ned look at what happened to his father and brother. With Tywin we have his father's weak leadership jeopardising his family. With Doran we have Ella. I think when we see how much Ned or Tywin are motivated by these things, GRRM doesn't need to show us that Doran does.

Then when you look at those three each of them has a child who you could argue is practically a reincarnation of them. Robb, Tyrion and Arianne. I would say Robb and Arianne to some extent have been sheltered from horrible shit like this. That might explain Robb's lack of caution and Arianne's comparitive lack of caution (she's a long-term planner I'll grant you, but by Doran standards that still seems like quite a short plan. Tywin sort of added tragedy to Tyrion's history himself, and of the three he's the one I'd want to lead me. Just a thought anyway. Maybe you need to know the consequences of war to lead your family through one..

The Stark parallel is interesting. Neds principles and sense of honour led his house to a position of strength under the Baratheon regime. Robb seemed to adopt these same principles and they took him to the grave. The difference between Robb and Ned is not that apparent, but the tragedy or lack of it is one difference.

Maybe the reality of Westeros has changed and what worked in the past is no longer applicable. I don't know. I always imagined young Doran to be a little bit like Quentyn. He realised early on he had no charisma and was no good in a fight, so he thought I'd better be smart. Arianne doesn't necessarily have these advantages.

But yeah blah, blah, blah. I'm going to take a leaf out of Julia's book and go watch Pokemon with my nephew.

[Chebyshov]

I wrote something that kind of directly addresses the above, but that's for the Quentyn reread in a month. I'd argue that both Arianne and Quentyn are quite intelligent, Arianne is just not bookish. There's different types of smarts, and hers allows her to operate very well in the social space and turn conversations to her advantage. She's kind of a natural leader, and it's fantastic.

Also, be it known that any favorable comparison of Tyrion to anyone, especially Arianne is quite dangerous ground :wideeyed:.

Did we ever finish picking Pokemon for each of the Snakes?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I wrote something that kind of directly addresses the above, but that's for the Quentyn reread in a month. I'd argue that both Arianne and Quentyn are quite intelligent, Arianne is just not bookish. There's different types of smarts, and hers allows her to operate very well in the social space and turn conversations to her advantage. She's kind of a natural leader, and it's fantastic.

Also, be it known that any favorable comparison of Tyrion to anyone, especially Arianne is quite dangerous ground :wideeyed:.

Did we ever finish picking Pokemon for each of the Snakes?

We were doing this?

How about the Eevee evolutions? (Eeveelutions :) ) There are exactly 8 eeveelutions, like it was meant to be...

[Chebyshov]

We were doing this?

How about the Eevee evolutions? (Eeveelutions :) ) There are exactly 8 eeveelutions, like it was meant to be...

It was back in the appreciation thread (starting here), which I believe launched this (locked) thread. I'm sticking with Sarella the spoonbender.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

It was back in the appreciation thread (starting here), which I believe launched this (locked) thread. I'm sticking with Sarella the spoonbender.

Wonderful :)

[I S**t Gold]

Snip.

Cool. I can't wait to read the essay. Totally agree with you on Arianne being a different kind of smart, and to organise the conspiracy she did she must know how to inspire loyalty. Like I said earlier, I think she'd be a slightly different ruler, but there's an argument Doran's caution has held Dorne back so I'm open to the possibility she's be a worse ruler or an upgrade.

I totally get your point about Tyrion. Was just noticing a theme of people who took after their father's having considerably less success when it was their turn.

[Chebyshov]

So thanks to the wonderful video about King Wilhelm Frederick his staff debating invading Hapsburg that Julia Martell provided for us, I made us a few reaction gifs that I think will come in handy when discussing Dornish politics, or even in reaction some threads at large here:

"Sit down and be reasonable!"

"This is disgusting"

Bismarck: "I may as well be dead"

"His tears are political."

Yup.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

It's 3.23am here and I'm working, but fuck.... I laughed so hard I think I woke up the whole neighbourhood: http://i.imgur.com/f2FFHj1.png

Original link: http://dondaario.tumblr.com/post/94672812797

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

We might be close to the closing-count of posts for this thread, but I did wanted to share with you all :)

The reread-analysis for Trial by Folly that I worked on contained quite a big amount of cyvasse, which inspired me to look into it a bit deeper. I found quite a lot, which can be read in my A Game of Thrones, A Game of Cyvasse thread.. It's quite a long read (it's an essay/analysis, after all :) ), so perhaps when boredom at work strikes, or something... ^^

The reason why I post this here, is not only because the first dornish reread inspired me to actually write it, but because it also contains quite a lot of Dorne. The headings under which you'll find all the Dorne, are the following:

Doran & Arianne Martell (changed slightly since the reread)

Tyrion Lannister & Aegon Targaryen (quite a lot in here)

Arianne Martell & Daemon Sand/Geribald Shells

Myrcella Baratheon & Trystane Martell

Arys Oakheart (the same short passage as during the reread, but the poor guy counts :) )

If anyone is interested, enjoy it :)

[Julia Martell]

Hey follow Dornishmen! (“dornishmen” is a gender numeral term, yes? I don’t have to day “Dornishmen and women”, that sounds awkward).

Prince Mud: The Quentyn Martell Reread Project is now live. I can’t wait to spend two months talking about castration anxiety an arguing about the Dornishness of various Yronwoods.

[Hrafntýr]

Hi, Dornish!

I thought there might be interest here in Queen Alysanne™'s "The Princess and the Queen," an essay comparing Arianne and Daenerys, freshly posted over in The Parallel Journey of Daenerys Targaryen &... thread of the Re-read section.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMKhdDlKHNE

A lot of Dorne despite they cut her.

[Chebyshov]

I was not emotionally prepared. I have a feeling I'll be using that phrase a lot this year.

[Julia Martell]

I have no interest to watching that. Like, none. It doesn’t even provoke anger anymore...

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I have no interest to watching that. Like, none. It doesn’t even provoke anger anymore...

To be fair, the intro of

Doran

with the background music that is a bit of spanish guitars, sounds pretty cool.

[naseridrl]

Does anyone have an idea of how the Water Gardens work? Does everyone from a noble house get to go when they are the right age, and the kids from the surrounding area of smallfolk?

It seems like such a wonderful idea. It allows the future rulers to get to know one another and create bonds. I imagine growing up together and seeing that everyone is just the same as everyone else must help foster good relations. Plus its also hard to rebel or slight someone when you have kids there and you know your kids will associate with other families kids and create bonds whether you like it or not. It might also be a huge help when it comes to marriage alliances because you'd be able to create bonds with people that maybe ordinarily you wouldn't meet that much.

Despite the Yronwoods seemingly being the main thorn in the Martells side over the years. They still went with Quentyn on his journey and helped delay Swann. They don't seem in anyway as troublesome as the other regions most troublesome houses.

[Chebyshov]

To be fair, the intro of

Doran

with the background music that is a bit of spanish guitars, sounds pretty cool.

Then there's this. I have confusion.

Does anyone have an idea of how the Water Gardens work? Does everyone from a noble house get to go when they are the right age, and the kids from the surrounding area of smallfolk?

It seems like such a wonderful idea. It allows the future rulers to get to know one another and create bonds. I imagine growing up together and seeing that everyone is just the same as everyone else must help foster good relations. Plus its also hard to rebel or slight someone when you have kids there and you know your kids will associate with other families kids and create bonds whether you like it or not. It might also be a huge help when it comes to marriage alliances because you'd be able to create bonds with people that maybe ordinarily you wouldn't meet that much.

Despite the Yronwoods seemingly being the main thorn in the Martells side over the years. They still went with Quentyn on his journey and helped delay Swann. They don't seem in anyway as troublesome as the other regions most troublesome houses.

I mean, I can't imagine House Dayne sending their kids all the way across the region just to splash in some pools. But most certainly it would seem that anyone child is welcome. Even if a commoner from Skyreach made the trek to drop their kid of, I doubt (s)he'd be turned away.

I don't think they are at all. The focus is first and foremost on Dorne (the "nation")'s well-being. Even Yronwood siding in the BF rebellion was likely with Dorne in mind. It makes sense to me that Dornish independence was on the table (keep in mind the BFs hated Dornish influence in court), but with the Yronwoods replacing the Martells as the leader. Since then, there was a little bit of tension because of Oberyn's duel, but sending Quentyn so young as a ward was an act of good faith. And one that seems to have worked very well.

[Chebyshov]

So in honor of the fact that Trystane Nymeros Martell is going to be an incredibly featured character on the show, I figured a Trystane Martell reread is in order! He's simply overflowing with material. Enjoy!

Do you want to play some Cyvasse: The Trystane Martell Reread:

Summary:
Trystane never appears on page. People mention him and think about him in passing sometimes. It seems that he's at Sunspear during most of the events of AFFC, and then goes to the Water Gardens with Myrcella. We know that he and Myrcella play cyvasse from time to time, and that when Arys was lying about her being having red spots, Trys still wanted to visit her. That's nice of him, though the disease also posed no danger to him.

Analysis:

Dimples bloomed in Tyene’s cheeks. “I would be honored to arrange the wedding, and to see to the making of the crowns as well. Trystane and Myrcella are so innocent, I thought perhaps white gold... with emeralds, to match Myrcella’s eyes."

Trystane is innocent. Yes, he's only 13, but was Oberyn innocent at 13? I'm pretty sure he was fathering Obara. Perhaps Arianne (and by extension Tyene) are just as uncomfortable with his budding sexuality as Doran is with Arianne's.

Prince Trystane had taken to the game at once, and Myrcella had learned it so she could play with him. She was not quite one-and-ten, her betrothed three-and-ten; even so, she had been winning more oft than not of late. Trystane did not seem to mind. The two children could not have looked more different, him with his olive skin and straight black hair, her pale as milk with a mop of golden curls; light and dark, like Queen Cersei and King Robert.

They look different! Arys is really good at digging deep here. Trystane is also quite humble and seems to just enjoy the company. that's really sweet of him.

“I understand you’ve fought some mighty battles too, Your Grace,” said Drey in his most cheerful voice. “It is said you show our brave Prince Trystane no mercy at the cyvasse table.”

“He always sets his squares up the same way, with all the mountains in the front and his elephants in the passes,” said Myrcella. “So I send my dragon through to eat his elephants.”

Is Trys just a shitty player, or is this an allegory? There's actually a point to be made here so I'll direct you to Rhaenys_Targaryen's amazing essay on cyvasse.

We could also theorize that maybe Trys wants to let Myrcella win so she'll like him more. That's kind of cute.

The princess had never been close to her brothers; Quentyn was off at Yronwood, and Trystane was too young.

They are 10 years apart. With Mellario leaving when Trys is about 3, does this position Arianne in a maternal role? Or was he maybe quasi-adopted by Ellaria given the closeness in age he has to Elia.

Princess Arianne made a sad face. “Oh, but we have all grown so fond of Myrcella, ser. She and my brother Trystane have become inseparable.”

Even though Arianne is manipulating Swann, this does seem corroborated in the text. Who did Trys hang out with before? Could Elia or Obella possibly be a bit jealous if they had been close to Trys before her arrival? Does Myrcella's septa (Eglantine) let her hang out with bastards?

“Seven save us,” whispered Tyene. “Trystane? Why?”

“The woman must be mad,” Obara said. “He’s just a boy.”

“This is monstrous,” said Lady Nym. “I would not have believed it, not of a Kingsguard knight.”

It seems all the Sand Snakes view Trys as young and innocent, even though their own "sire" hardly presented this way at that age.

All in all this is a character that is absolutely overflowing with nuance. I think it was a great idea to age him up and place him front and center in the Dornish theater.

Discussion Questions

• Why wasn't Trys present to welcome Doran back to Sunspear?
• Shouldn't Trys be actively squiring rather than playing cyvasse all day? If he doesn't want to be a knight, what is his passion? Finger-drumming?
• He doesn't seem scared of women in the way Quentyn does, but he's certainly no Oberyn or Arianne by 13 (Daemon can attest to that). Does Trys not take after either one of his parents?
• My cat is also named Trystane Nymeros Martell. Do you think he or the book character is more brimming with personality?

[Julia Martell]

Fascinating Analysis of a fascinating character.

Why wasn’t Trys present to welcome Doran back to Sunspear? - He was grounded. see third question below.

Shouldn’t Trys be actively squiring rather than playing cyvasse all day? - Well, Trys does have a sworn shield, Ser Gascoyne of the Greenblood. Maybe he’s his squire?

If he doesn’t want to be a knight, what is his passion? Finger-drumming? - Nah, Trys is more of a lute guy. But his characterization is so fleshed out that I feel comfortable speculating that he resents having normative masculine roles like knighthood imposed on him. He often rebelliously plays hookie from his knight lesson. So Arianne grounded him and told him we wasn’t allowed to go to their dad’s welcome home party. She’s a hardass.

He doesn’t seem scared of women in the way Quentyn does, but he’s certainly no Oberyn or Arianne by 13 (Daemon can attest to that). Does Trys not take after either one of his parents? - Well, considering that both his parents are rather absentee on him, is it very surprising? I actually suspect that he’s a bit like Doran was at that age; “One day I will have a stable monogamous relationship and I expect this will make me happy.”

My cat is also named Trsytane Nymeros Martell. Do you think he or the book character is more brimming with personality? - Well, cat Trys likes to follow you around and demand food, Dornish Trys like to follow Myrcella around a demand cyvasse. Toss up?

Trystane is innocent. Yes, he's only 13, but was Oberyn innocent at 13? I'm pretty sure he was fathering Obara. Perhaps Arianne (and by extension Tyene) are just as uncomfortable with his budding sexuality as Doran is with Arianne's.

They are 10 years apart. With Mellario leaving when Trys is about 3, does this position Arianne in a maternal role? Or was he maybe quasi-adopted by Ellaria given the closeness in age he has to Elia.

Even though Arianne is manipulating Swann, this does seem corroborated in the text. Who did Trys hang out with before? Could Elia or Obella possibly be a bit jealous if they had been close to Trys before her arrival? Does Myrcella's septa (Eglantine) let her hang out with bastards?

I can’t imagine what’s influencing you to make these speculations. :dunno:

I have a couple questions of my own:

Did Doran and Mellario have Trys as a desperate attempt to save their marriage? Did this mess him up?

How does he feel about having his genitalia used as a political bargaining chip? No one asked him if he wanted to marry some Lannister, where is his agency?

Does he realize he’s Arianne’s default brother?

“Our laws constrain him, but he would sooner have my brother follow him, I know it.”

“Your brother?” Ser Arys put his hand beneath her chin and raised her head, the better to look her in the eyes. “You cannot mean Trystane, he is just a boy.”

“Not Trys. Quentyn.”

**

“No? Shall we ask my brother?”

“Trystane?”

“Quentyn.”

“What of him?”

[Bright Blue Eyes]

• Shouldn't Trys be actively squiring rather than playing cyvasse all day? If he doesn't want to be a knight, what is his passion? Finger-drumming?

No. In the real world, squires started to squire at age 14, on average. That seems to be the case in Westeros as well, barring a couple outliers fast-forwarded because of talent, influence or circumstances.

Especially since the Seven put a lot of symbolic value on multiples of seven. Birth to six a babe, seven to thirteen a page, fourteen to twenty a squire. Twenty-one and older a knight. Almost all characters fit those brackets.