Veltigar

Outlander: Waiting for April [SPOILERS: First Season]

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I think the sex is rather well done on this show. Though, there is still room for improvement. If the sex is meant to be a conversation of sorts, it makes some of the voiceovers and some of the dialogue annoyingly redundant. I'd rather they just allow the bodies and the faces to tell us what's going on here rather than talk talk talk talk talk.

But, I enjoy the commentary... The sex talk on this show is one of a kind... :)

Seriously, you are totally right... Sometimes it is a bit too much of talk. But then again, it is too much of the "act" itself.

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Nice return of the show, though it's definitely not even close to perfect. Outlander is gorgeously shot, expertly scored, makes great use of its setting and is well-acted throughout. Fortunatly for us, that doesn't seem to change. However, storywise (both the telling and the actual developments) there is still much work to be done. There were three things that really bugged the hell out of me:

1) The voice-over. Still as unnecessary as ever, though I agree that the shift to Jaime's perspective in this case (i.e. him being the outsider to the whole marriage deal) was a good decision if we absolutely have to stomach a voice-over. Even so, they could have turned it down a notch, especially the one in the beginning.

2) Letting Captain Randall live. This annoyed me, although I don't really hold this against the show. I get that Jaime's isn't that kind of hero. Still an incredibly stupid decision on his part though. I swear, if I ever create my own show (probably not going to happen) and a similar situation happens, my protagonists would pick Randall up (one by his boots, the other by his ponytail) and throw him out of that window faster than you can say 'timber'.

3) My main gripe of the episode was the beating scene or to be more accurate the conflict that resulted from it. That was just incredibly stupid imo, both Jaime and Claire happily carried the idiot ball around for the entire episode. I mean it should have been clear to a woman with Claire's wits that the beating was the (unjust but necessary) price to be payed for a return to the clansmen's good graces. Jaime did not want to punish her, but he could not let her off. That would have diminished his standing and Claire would have remained ostracized from the group.

She should have understood that and submitted herself, that way she could have placated the clansmen and avoided a really thorough thrashing. Instead, the writer chose for her to make a stupid fight just so he could showcase how "strong" she was (idiocy isn't the same as strength imo) and what an enlightend, perfect, one-of-a-kind, special snowflake Jaime is (because he felt sorry and swore her fealthy). What made it even worse imo was the fact that Jaime did not really try and explain the situation fully to her. If he had done that and Claire would have still chosen to fight, that would have been cool I guess. But the way the show presented it to us was more than a tad disappointing.

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Nice return of the show, though it's definitely not even close to perfect. Outlander is gorgeously shot, expertly scored, makes great use of its setting and is well-acted throughout. Fortunatly for us, that doesn't seem to change. However, storywise (both the telling and the actual developments) there is still much work to be done. There were three things that really bugged the hell out of me:

This is interesting view and I completely agree. Regardless how wonderful particular elements of this show is, ultimately, it is adaptation, and if the original material sucks, there is only so much space for improvements.

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This is interesting view and I completely agree. Regardless how wonderful particular elements of this show is, ultimately, it is adaptation, and if the original material sucks, there is only so much space for improvements.

Never read the original material, so I can hardly judge that :)

This is becoming a bad porno.

It isn't over untill the pizzaboy arrives :p

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This series has really highlighted for me how the portrayal of protagonist and love interest differ starkly by the target audience gender. I know this isn't anything new but I'm still surprised by the difference in how each gender wants to see themselves and what they want in a love interest.



The cliche for male audiences is an action movie star: the hero is a lone wolf alpha; strong (cartoonishly muscled) but silent and unemotional; he protects weaker people; he is always right and is a man of action with no time for bureaucrats and pen-pushers. His love interest is a fawning, easy, big-breasted, all looks & no brains who is awed by his manliness; she also boosts his alpha status by be desired by but unavailable to other men.



Outlander offers us a cliche for female audiences: the hero is independent above all else, feisty, stands up to misogyny and ignorance; knows more than those around her but is ignored until she is satisfyingly proven right; not too hot (she has to be relatable) but still desired by men around her; suffers at least some jealousy or cattiness from other women; is recognized as superior to a hotter but vacuous or evil rival. Her love interest has a square chin and long flowing hair; a disreputable past until he meets her and finds his better nature; a noble/tragic poet who despite himself falls uncontrollably and very faithfully for her; he submits to her in an orgy of mutual respect, equality, and affirmation (just don't say validation)



In both cliches, it's kind of embarrassing what kind of insecurities in the audience are being reassured.



So Outlander is very good TV. The setting, camera work, score, humorous dialogue are very good and the blatant wish fulfillment is light-hearted fun. But the depth of the cliche denies suspension of disbelief. And that extends to the laughably evil antagonist, who the love interest is too noble to kill.

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Just curious, for those who have not read the books, where do you see the story going? It seems no one is inspired to speculate, maybe they already tell us everything in the voice overs. :lol:


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The cliche for male audiences is an action movie star: the hero is a lone wolf alpha; strong (cartoonishly muscled) but silent and unemotional; he protects weaker people; he is always right and is a man of action with no time for bureaucrats and pen-pushers. His love interest is a fawning, easy, big-breasted, all looks & no brains who is awed by his manliness; she also boosts his alpha status by be desired by but unavailable to other men.

Speaking as a male, I'd say that comparatively little of your description excites me :P Strong , protecting of the weak and not having time for bureaucrats I like, although I would argue that 'protecting the weak' is kind of an essential trait one has to possess to be a hero, regardless of gender :) After all, Claire herself does that quite a bit.

Having no patience for bureaucrats and pen-pushers is also a difficult one. Movie bureaucrats are always a thousand time more annoying and incompetent than their real life counterparts, just to create some conflict. If the cliched hero you described were to meet actual bureaucrats from our world he would be vexed by these people's competence I reckon.

The description of the love interest also slightly puzzles me. Perhaps the Fast & the Furious crowd loves that type of love interest, but you can hardly say that everyone enjoys that type in entertainment and art nowadays. I think the way you describe the cliched hero and love interest is a tad extreme, more in line with the cliched norm of the eighties or nineties, when Schwarzenegger, JCVD and Stallone ruled the silver screens. I mean, you basically described McBain from The Simpsons and he's a Schwarzenegger parody ;)

I think the type of audience that invests in a TV-show like this is more diverse than that nowadays. The cliches are still there of course, that's the reason why we have all those shitty superhero series right now, but in general I think they are a bit better camouflaged in series like Outlander.

Outlander offers us a cliche for female audiences: the hero is independent above all else, feisty, stands up to misogyny and ignorance; knows more than those around her but is ignored until she is satisfyingly proven right; not too hot (she has to be relatable) but still desired by men around her; suffers at least some jealousy or cattiness from other women; is recognized as superior to a hotter but vacuous or evil rival. Her love interest has a square chin and long flowing hair; a disreputable past until he meets her and finds his better nature; a noble/tragic poet who despite himself falls uncontrollably and very faithfully for her; he submits to her in an orgy of mutual respect, equality, and affirmation (just don't say validation)

About the bolded, you must be joking :P Caitriona Balfe might not be as hot as, say the girls on Arrow, but she's not exactly a wallflower now is she. In fact, in many ways she's actually hotter than what you see in series like Arrow, because she looks real instead of being airbrushed or photoshopped. Balfe is definitely TV-hot, I don't see many women of her stature in my daily life. I suspect the same is true in the opposite direction as well, I think most of the ladies here can attest that they don't usually meet men as handsome as Sam Heughan in their daily lives :)

The rest is pretty accurate though.

So Outlander is very good TV. The setting, camera work, score, humorous dialogue are very good and the blatant wish fulfillment is light-hearted fun. But the depth of the cliche denies suspension of disbelief. And that extends to the laughably evil antagonist, who the love interest is too noble to kill.

Claire was quite willing to kill Black Jack though, that kind of ruthlessness is hardly a trait that I think is typical for a female protagonist in our current media landscape :) Of course, I know the point is probably moot anyways, because you just know that this series is building up to a moment where Claire has the opportunity to rid the world of Black Jack for good, but realizes that in doing so she would also annihilate all his descendants including Frank. This will of course discourage her from killing Black Jack, although it would be nice to be surprised there.

Just curious, for those who have not read the books, where do you see the story going? It seems no one is inspired to speculate, maybe they already tell us everything in the voice overs. :lol:

Well, let's see, I'll try and predict three small things. Although it is quite hard to predict a series like this if you aren't familiar with the writers intentions and bravado. I mean, I think I have a pretty good idea of where they would go if they choose not to throw any real curveballs, but this show might surprise me and do something more interesting than the usual fare. Like, will they be brave enough to change history?

I remember another Starz series, where I was dead certain about how the story would end and I was proven wrong. That was Spartacus: Blood and Sands (spoilers for the entire series behind the spoilertags)

I was sure the writers would give Spartacus a happy ending and have him escape the grasp of Rome. According to some ancient historians, his body was never found, so I was convinced from day one that the writers would use that ambiguity to give their protagonist the usual standard happy ending. I became even more convinced of my hypothesis after they introduced a new Roman love interest for Spartacus in season three. It all seemed to wrap up rather nicely and then I was absolutely dumbfounded when the writers actually killed him off. That totally blindsighted me and I say that with love, because I thought it was great.

1) As stated in my reply to Iskaral Pust, I think this show will inevitably create a moment where Claire has the opportunity to kill Black Jack, realizes that that would mean killing all his descendants including Frank and thus decides to let him go. That will probably have certain unpleasant consequences on Jaime and the other members of Clan McKenzie.

2) Jaime will eventually become a full member of Clan McKenzie. Thus he'll be eligible to succeed Colum. There has to be some conflict with Dougal sooner or later I reckon. It's to early to tell how it would all go down exactly, but the most probably incentive I can think of now is Dougal's continued investment in the Jacobite cause. If Claire has spilled her beans by then, Jaime would probably try to become leader of the Clan to prevent them from fighting in the battle of Culloden.

3) The battle of Culloden was fought near Inverness. Their might be some timejump shenanigans and conflict there, seperate from the battle.

This is becoming a bad porno.

I know I already made a jape as a response to your comment, but I do think I have something rather clever to say to your comparison to porno. I think Outlander in general does a great job with its sex scenes. Sure, the last one was a bit long and the whole conflict that propelled it was rather daft, which made it loose a lot of its punch, but in general I have to say that Outlander has done a wonderful job with its sex scenes. Certainly better than a lot of other premium cable shows that I could mention of the top of my head.

The main reason for this is imo, that at least up until this point in its run, Outlander has made the sex scenes subservient to its story. I don't think any of the sex scenes so far were purely there to titilate the audience and fill a boob quotum. They have all relayed a piece of info to us so far and not in the lazy sexplanation way GoT has pioneered.

Plus, given the nature of the story I think sex scenes are a vital part of it. Our protagonist is a strong, indepent woman and I do think control over her own sexuality is one of the things that would be pretty essential to such a character. It makes sense for sex to be part of her story. Furthermore, the story - for better or for worse- does revolve around Claire's romantic relations with Frank and Jaime, and sexual intimacy is part of the equation there. I don't think you could scrap the sex scenes and get a satisfying overview of Claire's life and adventure so to speak.

Edited by Veltigar

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Veltigar, you should bookmark that post and come back to it as this series moves forward. I'll be interested to see how spot on you were with some of this. I've read the series so I know some of what you got right or wrong, but there is still room for the show to make changes.

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Before I start discussing the latest episode (By the Pricking of My Thumbs), just want to go ahead and acknowledge one thing. Yes, Jack Bauer24, we know you found this episode cringey, and female sexuality is like bad porn, like bad fan fiction, like bad poop, like bad kicmhi, like bad everything. You've said it all before so let's not say it again, unless you're doing so in your own thread where you just write one liners about how you hate everything that's not GoT.



Moving on, thought it was good, though not amazing. There were several wtf moments. Like, the Duke of Sandringham's castle. It's weird that this isn't something we've seen before, and equally weird that it's apparently so close to Castle Leoch. All of the Duke scenes were great but I just kept thinking about the randomness of this castle on a golf course being in the backyard of Leoch. Then it was strange that Murtagh wasn't with Jamie during the duel. It's a duel, Murtagh is with Jamie even when he's peeing, even when he's just finishing up some vigorous cunnilingus, but not during a duel? Strange choice. Angus now knows all about Claire's sedatives when a couple of episodes ago Rupert was confused about whether or not it was Spanish. So either it's just a lapse by the writers or we're meant to think that everyone has now learned what a sedative is.



That opening scene! Geillis dancing! So much focus on female sexuality in this episode, and it was all quite beautiful and well done.



Laoghaire, I like how they've gone with this. It's impossible not to feel pity towards Laoghaire. She's the sort of person Jamie was describing at the dead baby scene. Someone who hasn't been more than a day's walk from where she was born and who's only worldly knowledge comes from Father Bane. She believes in stuff like horse dung love potions and ill wishing sticks. It's easy to see how to Laoghaire, Claire appears to be this very witchy woman who now has her claws in Jamie and Laoghaire must save him. She's just a sheltered ignorant pitiful girl. But of course, she's also an asshole for getting our protagonist arrested.



Was the boy who handed Claire the letter the same one she saved from death by Lily of the Valley? I wonder how that will play out. Will the boy feel terrible about the part he played in getting his savior arrested or is he harboring anger than he still might have demons inside him because Claire interrupted the exorcism?


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Ffs this was cringey. Lets open with oral and then shift to bewbs in the woods! Not only that, but this episode covered a lot of ground but did so in a jarring fashion. The transitions weren't smooth and though each segment was fine on its own, it was stitched together unevenly. Overall terrible episode.

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Veltigar, you should bookmark that post and come back to it as this series moves forward. I'll be interested to see how spot on you were with some of this. I've read the series so I know some of what you got right or wrong, but there is still room for the show to make changes.

Oh, some of my picks were right? :) Good to know. Glad that I picked those three things over an invasion of robots-looking-like-Schwarzenegger from the future or a random police box from the 1960's turning up :p

kicmhi

What's kicmhi? :)

Moving on, thought it was good, though not amazing.

Well, amazing is something rare indeed :) I thought this was a pretty great episode actually. The reviewer over at the AV-club gave it an A. That's a little much, but I get why she would give it such a high score. Although, her rather odd obsession with Geillis probably helped her to arrive at that conclusion. I would personally award a solid A- to the episode.

Like, the Duke of Sandringham's castle. It's weird that this isn't something we've seen before, and equally weird that it's apparently so close to Castle Leoch. All of the Duke scenes were great but I just kept thinking about the randomness of this castle on a golf course being in the backyard of Leoch.

The Duke of Sandringham was a delight. I hope (and strongly suspect) that we'll see more of him in the future. Normally, I don't like his type (whimpy gay stereotype), but for some odd reason the Duke clicked with me. Perhaps because of his foppish nature and the fact that he had some really good lines (the Duke's line to Jaime about telling Claire that this wasn't his fault had me in stitches).

Then it was strange that Murtagh wasn't with Jamie during the duel. It's a duel, Murtagh is with Jamie even when he's peeing, even when he's just finishing up some vigorous cunnilingus, but not during a duel? Strange choice.

Easily excused though imo. The whole duel scene was the highlight of the episode to me. We got insight in Scottish culture (the fake duel, Clan MacDonald), some wicked sword play, the Duke being hilarious throughout and a nice couple of taunts (the 17th century Scottish version of a yo mama joke from Jaime should have been dumb, but it was pretty funny). Also, I loved how Jaime got injured from his fight. That's so much better than most other shows, where the male lead would just kill those three MacDonald douchebags without even exerting himself to much.

That opening scene! Geillis dancing! So much focus on female sexuality in this episode, and it was all quite beautiful and well done.

Although I agree, I must say that I was rather taken aback by the dance scene. Perhaps it was because I'm not a big fan of Geilis as a character, but I did think it was rather odd that she was basically there alone, not really well hidden. I mean for all she knew Father Blaine could have been there instead of Claire and who knows what he would have done to her.

Laoghaire, I like how they've gone with this. It's impossible not to feel pity towards Laoghaire. She's the sort of person Jamie was describing at the dead baby scene. Someone who hasn't been more than a day's walk from where she was born and who's only worldly knowledge comes from Father Bane. She believes in stuff like horse dung love potions and ill wishing sticks. It's easy to see how to Laoghaire, Claire appears to be this very witchy woman who now has her claws in Jamie and Laoghaire must save him. She's just a sheltered ignorant pitiful girl. But of course, she's also an asshole for getting our protagonist arrested.

:agree:

Was the boy who handed Claire the letter the same one she saved from death by Lily of the Valley? I wonder how that will play out. Will the boy feel terrible about the part he played in getting his savior arrested or is he harboring anger than he still might have demons inside him because Claire interrupted the exorcism?

I think he was, didn't Mr. Fitz say it was her nephew? I think the first is more likely than the second. However, will it really mather in the end. Perhaps it was just a nice callback to an earlier episode without the intent of bringing him back for something a little bit more serious.

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That opening scene! Geillis dancing! So much focus on female sexuality in this episode, and it was all quite beautiful and well done.

I thought that was lovely, too. Just enjoying the whole show, not finding much to dislike, very faithful in spirit to the books.

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good times.



the new hubby continues to find excuses to say "here's my chest!"



Politicians back then were as bad as they are today. And the clan lord's bowed legs could be used as the target in that bocce ball game played by lawn care enthusiasts where you putt the ball through those little metal goal thingees. Is that game more of an English thing, though? So it'd be extra insulting if they asked an Irish or Scotish lord to stand still for that, due to the cultural divide between them.



Random Whoa!!! --->


(and possibly a spoiler, since I don't know what's in the books)... but it's probably not a spoiler considering I'm the source of this idea:


if they kill this bad guy British army rapist torturer jerk from the past, doesn't that mean her first husband would sort of wink out of existence as that guy's descendant?!?!?! That'd be a decisive way to end the problem of her heart's teeter-tottering between loyalties to two loves. Which means she's got to safeguard both of them, because the heart in question won't brook murder, not even via paradox. So the life of that English jackhole must be saved to protect her future love, which leaves her time-travel hubby in peril from the ruthless dude they've got to keep alive who's just going to use that life to hunt them down, which is also unacceptable. Solution:

bring her first husband back through the portal to be with them in the past, then kill the British officer guy and have her husband immediately take over as that guy, impersonating him like a doppleganger, like those changelings that were just mentioned on the show. Then.... one husband gets her on weekdays, the other on weekends, and she spends lots of time commuting between England & Scotland.



Also...


Claire first observes her friend in a frenzy ("vaginalizing the mysteries").... then she specifically hears the word "summoning" applied to this ritual of beseeching fate to be kind to her unborn. A Summoning, which you'd think would have perked our heroine's ears up. Through the dimensional veil, the witch summons a better situation for the baby to be born into..... and Claire is soooooo based in science (despite all she's witnessed!) that she has no immediate and hard questions for the witch???? Claire doesn't feel compelled to ask whether any summoning rituals were performed around the time she got pulled back in time??? "Say, could you check your witchcraft journal to see if you asked the stones for anything on the eve of the season 1 premiere?"


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So, I finally watched the episode.

I thought it was a good episode, steadily progressing the story along putting things into place for the next wave.

I thought the Duke was absolutely hilarious.


That opening scene! Geillis dancing! So much focus on female sexuality in this episode, and it was all quite beautiful and well done.

Agree.

Laoghaire, I like how they've gone with this. It's impossible not to feel pity towards Laoghaire. She's the sort of person Jamie was describing at the dead baby scene. Someone who hasn't been more than a day's walk from where she was born and who's only worldly knowledge comes from Father Bane. She believes in stuff like horse dung love potions and ill wishing sticks. It's easy to see how to Laoghaire, Claire appears to be this very witchy woman who now has her claws in Jamie and Laoghaire must save him. She's just a sheltered ignorant pitiful girl. But of course, she's also an asshole for getting our protagonist arrested.

I get what your saying, but I don't like her. Like you I understand why she's acting that way and they've done a good job showing that but it still doesn't justifying her behavior.

Was the boy who handed Claire the letter the same one she saved from death by Lily of the Valley? I wonder how that will play out. Will the boy feel terrible about the part he played in getting his savior arrested or is he harboring anger than he still might have demons inside him because Claire interrupted the exorcism?

Yes, it's the same boy. I think he would feel terrible about it.

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Nice episode... For a split of second, when Jamie found Claire with the baby, I half-expected him to go "Haven't you learned?" and spank her.



For those of you that read the book, am I wrong to expect something on homosexual relationship trio between Duke, Captain and poor Jamie? Because the look on Duke's face while touching Jaime can only be outmatched by the look on my face when I see my grandma's baklava :)



Regarding female sexuality, I like how it is done here without making Claire a "whore". Too many times have we seen the two terms being used as one. And it is nice to see things a bit differently.






good times.



snip





Oh, MOTO, I guess I am not the only one who is able to like cross-gender things... :)



And just for the record, while I think I come from generally beautiful nation, both protagonists are indeed hot. Which indeed makes sex scene far more enjoyable.

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For those of you that read the book, am I wrong to expect something on homosexual relationship trio between Duke, Captain and poor Jamie? Because the look on Duke's face while touching Jaime can only be outmatched by the look on my face when I see my grandma's baklava :)

Tagging just in case.

In the books, as in the show, Randall is a sadist. There are some times where it appears that Black Jack prefers men, but it mostly seems all tied up in his sadism. He experiences greater pleasure when it's breaking a man because it's more of a challenge sort of thing. The Duke knows about Randall's problems but there is no sexual relationship between the Duke and Jamie beyond these hints of flirtations from the Duke.

Edited by Dr. Pepper

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I'm enjoying the show; so far so good. Excellent casting; and I'm looking forward to the rest of the season.


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That...was.......simply amazing. By far my favorite episode of the series and one of my favorite episodes of television ever.

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Lol. Jfc jack, have you changed your tune? This might be the first time you've liked anything not GoT.



I actually didn't care for it much. There were some really lovely moments. But for the first time I had a desire to knock my head against my desk with Claire. There were times when she was just stupid. A gazillion neon signs flashing that Geillis is a time traveler but somehow a barely visible scar across a crowded room was the 'lightening bolt'? Whatever. I wasn't all that impressed with the schoolyard girl fight between Laoghaire and Claire over some boy. It also seemed ridiculous that Jamie would believe her with no tangible proof. He's supposed to be an educated man. I just went away from this episode feeling a lot more nitpicks than I wanted.



On another note, Father Bain's scene was juicy. He looked properly sinister when he was talking about how evil Claire was for being so ridiculously good looking.


Edited by Dr. Pepper

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