Sansa

[Jez Targaryen]

I have a feeling that some of the dislike for Sansa comes from the show, where the actress looks older, like 15 or 16 if I remember right, so the viewer naturally feels that she should have been more capable of speaking up for herself. There's a huge difference between 11 and 16.

[Annara Snow]

I have a feeling that some of the dislike for Sansa comes from the show, where the actress looks older, like 15 or 16 if I remember right, so the viewer naturally feels that she should have been more capable of speaking up for herself. There's a huge difference between 11 and 16.

Sansa is 13 in season 1 instead of 11, and the actress was 14 at the time it was filmed. But she does look older than her age.

[Jez Targaryen]

In general, I prefer the child characters ages in the show over the books (and besides, seeing a 13 year old Dany naked on tv would just be weird, not to mention illegal). I think the books the books tend to have them acting a few years older than they actually are. But the Arya/Joffrey/butcher's boy scene is definitely one where the age disparity between the show and the books really makes itself felt.

[Xray the Enforcer]

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[Thelastsanson]

I actually love Sansa. Sure, Sansa should've spoken up and told the truth about what happened between Arya and Joffrey, yet... from the very beginning she wanted to avoid trouble, calm Joffrey. Wasn't it Arya with her imprudence, irascible, wild manners that made this situation happen? She tried to handle the situation as a lady as she always does, with Sandor, with Joffrey... and I don't think that's something to hate her for. She had to choose between Joffrey and Arya, the handsome prince to be husband and the sister that always disappointed her and was uncontrollable, respectively. I would've chosen Joffrey as well.

Sansa is ultimately playing the game, the game of courtesy and manners, of following rules and being nice/amicable; things highly valuable I daresay for the position she's in, for the place she's in. That's her way of fighting, of surviving- no less important or valiant to what Arya does.

She's always contrasted with Arya, and the adoration people have towards Arya seems to inevitably bring this torrent of hate toward Sansa, IMO, which always make me sad. This is my view on Sansa, though, hopefully someone would agree with me. :)

[JonBranRickon]

I like them both. Sansa is a opportunist and Arya is a warrior.

[Annara Snow]

I like them both. Sansa is a opportunist and Arya is a warrior.

Sansa is not an opportunist, and Arya is not a warrior.

[MissMatchedEyes]

Let me pose this to you: WIth the Lady incident, Sansa told Ned what had happened afterwards while Arya was still missing, and yet when she was called to speak up he left her hanging instead of telling them what he had told her, or doing something to protect his 11 year old daughter from facing the King, Queen & Prince alone. It was a horrible situation and the adults handled the situation even more poorly than the children.

You mean this ^as a "what if" moment?

[JonBranRickon]

Sansa is not an opportunist, and Arya is not a warrior.

i disagree.

[Annara Snow]

i disagree.

There's nothing to agree or disagree on Arya not being a warrior. It's a fact that she's not. Taking swordfighting lessons for a few months does not make one a warrior any more than taking French lessons for a few months makes you a linguist.

She was never a warrior, she was a child fugitive and captive running away, trying to survive and occasionally killing people by stealth. And now she's training to be an assassin. Again, nothing to do with being a warrior.

To consider Sansa an "opportunist", one would have to completely misread her characterization right from the beginning. The idea of Sansa, the character who's portrayed as the most dreamy, romantic, obsessed with songs about chivalry and heroism and romance - and GRRM isn't even subtle about it, being "opportunist", is absurd.

Opportunist = Bronn, Littlefinger, Cersei...

[Sword of Mutilation]

Let me pose this to you: WIth the Lady incident, Sansa told Ned what had happened afterwards while Arya was still missing, and yet when she was called to speak up he left her hanging instead of telling them what he had told her, or doing something to protect his 11 year old daughter from facing the King, Queen & Prince alone. It was a horrible situation and the adults handled the situation even more poorly than the children.

Well if Ned had said it they wouldn't have believed him

[The Wolf Lord's Daughter]

I wish she could have spun it just a little: Joffrey mistakenly thought Arya was being attacked by a commoner, so he bravely rushed in to defend her as a noble knight would do, but Nymeria mistakenly thought he was attacking Arya, and then Arya, being the hot-headed, thoughtless child that she is, threw the sword in the river.

Joffrey would have come out looking like a hero, with the scars to prove it, Arya an ungrateful little brat and the direwolves just might have been spared if King Robert felt that his son had acted bravely instead of cowardly.

But she is only 11, and that would have required some nimble thinking.

Thing is, what most Sansa fans forget is that Arya has already told the court that she attacked the crown prince after he hurt Mycah. Even if Sansa spun the lie you've suggested, Arya has already told them what actually happened. Also, as AFFC proved, Cersei is a sadistic creep. She still would've had the direwolves killed. The only difference in this scenario is that Joff is humiliated because everyone knows she was beaten a 9 year old girl and her pet.

I actually love Sansa. Sure, Sansa should've spoken up and told the truth about what happened between Arya and Joffrey, yet... from the very beginning she wanted to avoid trouble, calm Joffrey. Wasn't it Arya with her imprudence, irascible, wild manners that made this situation happen? She tried to handle the situation as a lady as she always does, with Sandor, with Joffrey... and I don't think that's something to hate her for. She had to choose between Joffrey and Arya, the handsome prince to be husband and the sister that always disappointed her and was uncontrollable, respectively. I would've chosen Joffrey as well.

Sansa is ultimately playing the game, the game of courtesy and manners, of following rules and being nice/amicable; things highly valuable I daresay for the position she's in, for the place she's in. That's her way of fighting, of surviving- no less important or valiant to what Arya does.

She's always contrasted with Arya, and the adoration people have towards Arya seems to inevitably bring this torrent of hate toward Sansa, IMO, which always make me sad. This is my view on Sansa, though, hopefully someone would agree with me. :)

Wow, this is so wrong. :bang: :bang: :bang: First, Arya didn't make this situation happen. She was playing swords with Mycah, minding her own business when Joffrey and Sansa found them. Even then Arya and Sansa told Joffrey to leave Arya and Mycah alone. If Joffrey hadn't been a sadistic maniac, he would've simply laughed at Arya and left. Instead, he places a god damn sword on Mycah's face and bullies him, even causing a wound on his cheek. He could've killed Mycah right there!

This causes Arya to hit Joffrey so that the creep doesn't continue hurting him. Oh, and despite Arya being "imprudent", she first tells Joffrey to leave Mycah alone, she doesn't jump at him the moment Joffrey enters the clearing. Then Joffrey attacks Arya with the castle-forged steel sword. If Nymeria hadn't rescued Arya, she would've been killed like Mycah was and Sansa knows it!! And you would've sided the the man who almost killed your sister? Even Sansa in AGOT didn't do that. She doesn't side with Joffrey in that situation but she doesn't side with Arya either. Sansa's most serious "offense" in this situation is that she doesn't help her sister when she needed her.

And for your last sentence, my favorite character is definitely Arya but I don't hate Sansa because of it. In fact, I like her and she's in my top ten. And just as there are some people who love Arya and hate Sansa because of it, there are some people who love Sansa and hate Arya because of it. That's their opinion but there are plenty to hate Sansa for her actions in AGOT, some of which have nothing to do with Arya so your argument is wrong.

[John Suburbs]

Thing is, what most Sansa fans forget is that Arya has already told the court that she attacked the crown prince after he hurt Mycah. Even if Sansa spun the lie you've suggested, Arya has already told them what actually happened. Also, as AFFC proved, Cersei is a sadistic creep. She still would've had the direwolves killed. The only difference in this scenario is that Joff is humiliated because everyone knows she was beaten a 9 year old girl and her pet.

True, but Sansa also had many hours to spin the tale while they were out looking for Arya. Cersei would have known the truth because Joff would have spilled the whole story already, but as long as he comes out looking good in public all would have been well -- and Cersei probably would have had higher regard for Sansa going forward. But again, that's a lot to put on a young girl.

[opalalchemy]

Well if Ned had said it they wouldn't have believed him

If they wouldn't believe Ned, the Hand of the King, why would an 11 year old girl make any difference whatsoever to the outcome.

Sansa was too passive and Arya was too wild. They both made the situation worse. Add in Sansa's level of intoxication during the incident and there was just no way the incident could have ended well. Lay the blame for Mycah and Lady where it deserves, with Joffrey, Cersei, Robert, and Sandor.

[kirt]

There's nothing to agree or disagree on Arya not being a warrior. It's a fact that she's not. Taking swordfighting lessons for a few months does not make one a warrior any more than taking French lessons for a few months makes you a linguist.

She was never a warrior, she was a child fugitive and captive running away, trying to survive and occasionally killing people by stealth. And now she's training to be an assassin. Again, nothing to do with being a warrior.

To consider Sansa an "opportunist", one would have to completely misread her characterization right from the beginning. The idea of Sansa, the character who's portrayed as the most dreamy, romantic, obsessed with songs about chivalry and heroism and romance - and GRRM isn't even subtle about it, being "opportunist", is absurd.

Opportunist = Bronn, Littlefinger, Cersei...

I don't think Cersei is a good example of an opportunist either. Of course, she's selfish, and of course, there is a correlation between the two terms, but Cersei is not willing to and not able to take advantage of the circumstances. Contrarily, she tries to have an impact on all the situations around her, if she succeeds - she gains, if not - she loses, but when there is a situation that is independent from her, she ends up taking only as much advantage and only as little loss as falls into her hands by itself. It's as far form opportunism as you can get if under the assumption of being selfish in the first place.

Regarding Arya, I agree with your point, but on the other hand, the dictionaries define "warrior" as "a person engaged OR experienced in warfare;" (it's modern definition so "swordfighting" would be more accurate, but the essence is the same). The experience is not required. Arya has no experience, but she is very engaged in swordfighting, so while the sentence "Arya is not a warrior" is definitely true because of the reasons you gave, it's not formal logic and I don't think it deters the sentence "Arya is a warrior" from being true as well. Mostly depends on the context I think:

- "Littlefinger is a politician and Arya is a warrior" - definitely false (it's about who they are),

- "Littlefinger is an opportunist and Arya is a warrior" - I call this one true (it's about one of the character traits. And it is one of Arya's traits and that's independent of how good she is in swordfighting). Though of course DEFINITELY not true regarding Sansa :D.

[Alysanne Baelish]

If they wouldn't believe Ned, the Hand of the King, why would an 11 year old girl make any difference whatsoever to the outcome.

Sansa was too passive and Arya was too wild. They both made the situation worse. Add in Sansa's level of intoxication during the incident and there was just no way the incident could have ended well. Lay the blame for Mycah and Lady where it deserves, with Joffrey, Cersei, Robert, and Sandor.

^^

[ftheking]

Sansa is insufferable in the first book. Sure the Mycah incident might be the worst, but she is insufferable almost all the way through and comes off as a silly cow in comparison not just to her sister/siblings, but to Jeyne Poole (sp?) as well. Examples: When Sansa takes pride in not giving a crap that the Mountain murdered some teen boy in front of her eyes. Yeah, awesome of you Sansa! And of course when Jeyne knows and tells her that they killed everyone and Sansa is determined to remain ignorant. Not to forget she actually betrayed her father to Cersei too.

Not the most likeable introduction, but you (well, I) still like her at the end of the book, just because her enemies are so horrible.

[The North]

I chalk it all up to Sansa being incredibly naive. She believed knights were as noble as in the songs, and were actually knighted to protect the weak by standing up to the strong. She actually believed she was helping her father (saving his life) by betraying him to the Lannisters. She actually believes if she protects Joff after this incident everything will go back to normal and she & Joffrey will live happily ever after all.

She's as naive as her father in the first book about how The Game works, and the furthest thing from an opportunist.

[Annara Snow]

Sansa is insufferable in the first book. Sure the Mycah incident might be the worst, but she is insufferable almost all the way through and comes off as a silly cow in comparison not just to her sister/siblings, but to Jeyne Poole (sp?) as well. Examples: When Sansa takes pride in not giving a crap that the Mountain murdered some teen boy in front of her eyes. Yeah, awesome of you Sansa! And of course when Jeyne knows and tells her that they killed everyone and Sansa is determined to remain ignorant. Not to forget she actually betrayed her father to Cersei too.

Not the most likeable introduction, but you (well, I) still like her at the end of the book, just because her enemies are so horrible.

Um, that never happened. Except maybe in some alternative ASOAIF that Sansa haters only know of. :rolleyes: In the actual ASOAIF, she felt sorry for him and thought that his death was sad, just did not cry or faint and scream like Jeyne Poole, and she wondered why she was not that incredibly upset, and then correctly realized it's because it's someone she doesn't know.

Jeyne Poole wept so hysterically that Septa Mordane finally took her off to regain her composure, but Sansa sat with her hands folded in her lap, watching with a strange fascination. She had never seen a man die before. She ought to be crying too, she thought, but the tears would not come. Perhaps she had used up all her tears for Lady and Bran. It would be different if it had been Jory or Ser Rodrik or Father, she told herself. The young knight in the blue cloak was nothing to her, some stranger from the Vale of Arryn whose name she had forgotten as soon as she heard it. And now the world would forget his name too, Sansa realized; there would be no songs sung for him. That was sad.

Most people don't scream and faint when someone they don't know dies, they just think it's sad, Ned Stark took his 7-year old son to watch a man being beheaded and expected him to be tough and not look away, and Bran did not faint or scream or cry - and everyone would have been disappointed if he did. The Starks are expected to be tough and not get squeamish about death as a fact of life.

His father peeled off his gloves and handed them to Jory Cassel, the captain of his household guard. He took hold of Ice with both hands and said, “In the name of Robert of the House Baratheon, the First of his Name, King of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm, by the word of Eddard of the House Stark, Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North, I do sentence you to die.” He lifted the greatsword high above his head.

Bran’s bastard brother Jon Snow moved closer. “Keep the pony well in hand,” he whispered. “And don’t look away. Father will know if you do.”

Bran kept his pony well in hand, and did not look away.

His father took off the man’s head with a single sure stroke. Blood sprayed out across the snow, as red as surnmerwine. One of the horses reared and had to be restrained to keep from bolting. Bran

could not take his eyes off the blood. The snows around the stump drank it eagerly, reddening as he watched.

The head bounced off a thick root and rolled. It came up near Greyjoy’s feet. Theon was a lean, dark youth of nineteen who found everything amusing. He laughed, put his boot on the head, and kicked it away.

Bran doesn't even think that "that was sad" and that the man will not be remembered in songs etc. He does not think he is supposed to cry (he's been told that, as a "man", he is not supposed to). He has no reaction whatsoever to Gared's death. And lo and behold, nobody says that 7-year old Bran is insufferable because he makes a point of not giving a crap that a man was murdered by his father right in front of him! :rolleyes: But 11-year old Sansa is expected to cry, scream and faint when a man she doesn't know dies in front of her? Even the fact that Sansa herself wonders why she does not feel like screaming and fainting, instead of being told she must be strong and unmoving and take it like a... (wo)man, shows the sexism in their upbringing. But the fact that so many fans expect Sansa to cry, faint and scream while they find it normal that little Bran, 4 years younger than her, does none of that and looks straight at the man being beheaded, shows that the fandom is also incredibly sexist, without even realizing it, because sexism is such an intrinsic part of our culture.

Of course, if Sansa has cried, fainted and/or screamed, everyone would be mocking her and despising her for being such a weak girly girl. Sansa can't win, because she's that most terrible, evil and despised of creatures: a pretty and "girly" adolescent girl. :rolleyes:

[Ser Cold Fingers]

<snip>

:bowdown:

Wait...There is sexism in this series?? :stunned: