Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

MissMatchedEyes

Sansa

72 posts in this topic

@Annara: Nope, Gerard wasn't murdered by Ned, he was executed for being a desserter. Not that I was happy he died, but it was pretty obvious that those present thought it justified and had quite understandable arguments for it. Ned always said no one is as dangerous as a desserter, plus obviously the betrayal of honor etc. I think it's Jon who keeps angsting about it and thinking back on Theon's blasè attitude about it somewhat, because obviously he comes to feel closer to the situation. Anyway no one can say Jon didn't give a crap and it seems to be the prime scene to establish Theon's character flaws. No reader would have expected Arya and Sansa to effing faint or scream or cry if they were present either, are you kidding me?



No one asks for Sansa to faint or cry at the boy's death either. We know her innermost thoughts. She could have realized that something felt off about this, if she were smart or intuitive (as we know, it really was murder). She could have had her mood slightly compromised and questioned whether tounees are really the best thing since sliced bread, if she was the least bit empathetic. No, she just admits that it's probably sad that no songs will written about the dead boy. Insufferable! Like she is incapable of acknowledging that another human being might be loved by someone and that that might mean something. She barely understands another human being is a human being. Even when faced directly with actual death, she is shallow as a puddle of water.



@ The North: I agree she is incredibly naive, which can be an annoying trait to read. But she also lacks any other kind of depth or redeeming quality to make her likeable, before she is victimized.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't get the Sansa hate. Granted, I didn't like her very much when I first read the book - she's very naive and thinks that all her songs are real, that people in real life actually behave like the knights in the songs; she judges people by appearance (Loras is the most beautiful guy she's ever seen), she idolizes Joffrey because he's so pretty and nice. When I first read AGoT, that attitude and behaviour struck me as very annoying and I didn't care much for Sansa. Now, a couple of years later, I've read the other books and am currently re-reading AGoT. Funny thing is that this time around, I pity Sansa because she's just so blind to everything that goes on around her. And I like her better because I know she will grow up and will probably become a significant player in the game. At least I hope so. Her behaviour (Ser Loras is soooo beautiful, Joffrey is so pretty and gallant, the Queen is so nice, everybody loves me) is basically that of a girl entering her teenage years. Also, she's never been exposed to the game before. She was safe in Winterfell where she could read her songs and dream about gallant knights; how would she know what reality is like, with everybody complimenting her on her ladylike behaviour and her beauty? Sansa's been living in a bubble that's about to pop. It's not her fault, she's been raised that way. If Cat and Ned wanted her to have more common sense, they could have done something about it but to them, she's the pretty daughter that will one day marry a Lord and become a Lady - because they don't know it any better, they've been raised the same way. Women are pretty and bear heirs, Men fight and rule. That Sansa lives by these simple rules really isn't her fault.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Um, that never happened. Except maybe in some alternative ASOAIF that Sansa haters only know of. :rolleyes: In the actual ASOAIF, 1) she felt sorry for him and thought that his death was sad, just did not cry or faint and scream like Jeyne Poole, and she wondered why she was not that incredibly upset, and then correctly realized it's because it's someone she doesn't know.

AGOT 29 SANSA

Jeyne Poole wept so hysterically that Septa Mordane finally took her off to regain her composure, but Sansa sat with her hands folded in her lap, watching with a strange fascination. She had never seen a man die before. She ought to be crying too, she thought, but the tears would not come. Perhaps she had used up all her tears for Lady and Bran. It would be different if it had been Jory or Ser Rodrik or Father, she told herself. The young knight in the blue cloak was nothing to her, some stranger from the Vale of Arryn whose name she had forgotten as soon as she heard it. And now the world would forget his name too, Sansa realized; there would be no songs sung for him. That was sad.

1)She wasn't sad about the boy, she didn't even realized serious the situation was, she demonstrated to don't know that a human life is more than just songs. She told clearly the death of a young knight was nothing to her, she didn't cared for him not even a bit. An innocent boy lost his life just for fun and for Sansa is easy to forget him.

A lady shouldn't cry, faint and scream hysterically, but the daughter of lord Eddard Stark should know and appreciate the value of a human life. Eddard was upset for Hugh's death, he was sorry for the mother of the boy, he blamed himself for the tourney, he was ashamed for the futility of that death. Ned didn't cry, faint and scream, he was compassionately and genuinely sorry. There is no sexism to criticize Sansa's shallow reaction to the useless death of an innocent boy.

AGOT 30 EDDARD

“Hugh was Jon Arryn’s squire for four years,” Selmy went on. “The king knighted him before he rode north, in Jon’s memory. The lad wanted it desperately, yet I fear he was not ready.”

Ned had slept badly last night and he felt tired beyond his years. “None of us is ever ready,” he said.

“For knighthood?”

“For death.” Gently, Ned covered the boy with his cloak, a bloodstained bit of blue bordered in crescent moons. When his mother asked why her son was dead, he reflected bitterly, they would tell her he had fought to honor the King’s Hand, Eddard Stark. “This was needless. War should not be a game.” Ned turned to the woman beside the cart, shrouded in grey, face hidden but for her eyes. The silent sisters prepared men for the grave, and it was ill fortune to look on the face of death. “Send his armor home to the Vale. The mother will want to have it.”

Most people don't scream and faint when someone they don't know dies, they just think it's sad, Ned Stark took his 7-year old son to watch a man being beheaded and expected him to be tough and not look away, and Bran did not faint or scream or cry - and everyone would have been disappointed if he did. The Starks are expected to be tough and not get squeamish about death as a fact of life.

His father peeled off his gloves and handed them to Jory Cassel, the captain of his household guard. He took hold of Ice with both hands and said, “In the name of Robert of the House Baratheon, the First of his Name, King of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm, by the word of Eddard of the House Stark, Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North, I do sentence you to die.” He lifted the greatsword high above his head.

Bran’s bastard brother Jon Snow moved closer. “Keep the pony well in hand,” he whispered. “And don’t look away. Father will know if you do.”

Bran kept his pony well in hand, and did not look away.

His father took off the man’s head with a single sure stroke. Blood sprayed out across the snow, as red as surnmerwine. One of the horses reared and had to be restrained to keep from bolting. Bran

could not take his eyes off the blood. The snows around the stump drank it eagerly, reddening as he watched.

The head bounced off a thick root and rolled. It came up near Greyjoy’s feet. Theon was a lean, dark youth of nineteen who found everything amusing. He laughed, put his boot on the head, and kicked it away.

Bran doesn't even think that "that was sad" and that the man will not be remembered in songs etc. He does not think he is supposed to cry (he's been told that, as a "man", he is not supposed to). He has no reaction whatsoever to Gared's death. And lo and behold, nobody says that 7-year old Bran is insufferable because he makes a point of not giving a crap that a man was murdered by his father right in front of him! :rolleyes: But 11-year old Sansa is expected to cry, scream and faint when a man she doesn't know dies in front of her? (False and pretentious accusations of sexism for half forum.)Even the fact that Sansa herself wonders why she does not feel like screaming and fainting, instead of being told she must be strong and unmoving and take it like a... (wo)man, shows the sexism in their upbringing. But the fact that so many fans expect Sansa to cry, faint and scream while they find it normal that little Bran, 4 years younger than her, does none of that and looks straight at the man being beheaded, shows that the fandom is also incredibly sexist, without even realizing it, because sexism is such an intrinsic part of our culture.

Of course, if Sansa has cried, fainted and/or screamed, everyone would be mocking her and despising her for being such a weak girly girl. Sansa can't win, because she's that most terrible, evil and despised of creatures: a pretty and "girly" adolescent girl. :rolleyes:

Beheading of the deserter was a lesson for Bran, let's remember what Ned teached him.

AGOT 2 BRAN

“Do you understand why I did it?”

“He was a wildling,” Bran said. “They carry off women and sell them to the Others.”

His lord father smiled. “Old Nan has been telling you stories again. In truth, the man was an oathbreaker, a deserter from the Night’s Watch. No man is more dangerous. The deserter knows his life is forfeit if he is taken, so he will not flinch from any crime, no matter how vile. But you mistake me. The question was not why the man had to die, but why I must do it.”

Bran had no answer for that. “King Robert has a headsman,” he said, uncertainly.

“He does,” his father admitted. “As did the Targaryen kings before him. Yet our way is the older way. The blood of the First Men still flows in the veins of the Starks, and we hold to the belief that the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man’s life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die.

“One day, Bran, you will be Robb’s bannerman, holding a keep of your own for your brother and your king, and justice will fall to you. When that day comes, you must take no pleasure in the task, but neither must you look away. A ruler who hides behind paid executioners soon forgets what death is.”

Even the life of a deserter, an oathbreaker deserves to be respected. A northmen should look into his eyes and hear his final words.

A northmen shouldn't forget what death is, it is exactly the opposite of Sansa's reaction.

The young knight in the blue cloak was nothing to her, some stranger from the Vale of Arryn whose name she had forgotten as soon as she heard it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@ The North: I agree she is incredibly naive, which can be an annoying trait to read. But she also lacks any other kind of depth or redeeming quality to make her likeable, before she is victimized.

I always found her duty as a lady to be her redeeming quality; while we all find Arya's rebelliousness to be more charming, Sansa always maintained her duty with courtesies and everything else taught to her by her septa. In that regard, she is as noble as any Stark with regard to duty and honor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sansa is necessary. We have Arya as an example of a young female who, as a survival strategy, flees the system and therefore suffers a great deal of hardship as a rsult. What would happen if instead she were to attempt to survive by working within the system? Well, in that case she'd be Sansa. But Sansa is no less a survivor - it's just that instead of having to face grunts wielding clubs, Sansa has to face supposedly "civilised" people carrying hidden daggers, ready to stab her in the back when she least expects it.



Of course Sansa starts out naive, full of illusions on what constitutes life in court. But then so does Arya. Arya has all sorts of naive ideas at first regarding soldiering - she does quite a bit of growing up realizing that swordplay isn't just an exciting game, it involves real death and suffering. Why hate Sansa for being naive but not Arya? They're both young, inexperienced girls. They're *supposed* to be naive.



I don't get all the Sansa hate either. She's a brave survivor. If I were to hazard a guess, it's because we identify her life with our own - most of us are forced to accept injustice and endure it with a smile. We dream of being able to do something about it and break free, like Arya does. We don't like being trapped like Sansa. And her strategy for survival - grin and bear it - is not something we enjoy doing.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I always thought Sansas lack of comprehension about his the world works was a moral failing on the part of her parents to teach her, especially after what happened with Lyanna. Every single other house seems to acknowledge Lyanna ran off with a prince and acted selfishly, impulsively, it's never acknowledged that vows are important, loyalty is important, strategy is important.

If Sansa is the way she is, it's as a result of indulgence.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Glad to see that around here disliking Sansa is still on par with praising the red wedding, Craster, and the slavers all at once. It's nice that some things never change.

This man made my day.

But I think the character development of Sansa from an annoying person to a more mature person, is something that I really liked.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Every single other house seems to acknowledge Lyanna ran off with a prince and acted selfishly, impulsively, it's never acknowledged that vows are important, loyalty is important, strategy is important.

Waaait a second. What does that have to do with Sansa? 1) It's

Robb who kind of repeats Lyanna's mistake.

2) Arya is said to be impulsive like Lyanna. Sansa is a very Tully kind of woman and the oppositte of Lyanna. In fact, as has been often said, she's all for duty and definitely believes in vows.

Also, everyone in Westeros pretends Rheagar stole and raped Lyanna, no? Ned of course knows better, but it's not as if he ever says it.

I don't get all the Sansa hate either. She's a brave survivor.

This thread is about how annoying Sansa is in BOOK ONE. BEFORE she is a brave survivor. And really annoying she was. I haven't seen threads like this in the other book's forums.

Why hate Sansa for being naive but not Arya?

Why would anyone hate a kid for being naive? Sansa is a downright dumb cow in AGoT, her extreme naivety is just the only excuse you can give for her behavior, which includes being the only sibling who feels above and cold towards her "bastard half-brother", adoring horrrible pos Joffrey, even after he's shown his true colours etc.

Why do some feel the need to pretend not to understand what people are talking about? If you read the book you must have noticed what might have been annoying about Sansa, really now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

why everyone be hatin on Sansa!!!!! Yes, it was stupid that she didn't tell the truth, but she is young and has the hots for Jofferey. She has flaws like every other character in the books.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

People hate Sansa for being the one southern stuckup princess in a family of down to earth rulers.

A. Her thoughts on Jon, Mycah, and smallfolks.

B. Her attitude towards Joff, before and after he proves a tool.

C. Lying to the king and choosing the guy over her sister.

DEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ. Betraying her father to Cersi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's one thing to hate Sansa in GoT, another to hate Sansa altogether. Sansa goes through one of the most dramatic arcs, and her character develops spectacularly, and grows and matures. So as frivolous as Sansa is at first, she develops into a fantastic character IMO. Can't hate someone because of what they initially are, but can love them for how they grow, react to their environment, and eventually become.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OP..yeah,i know how you feel. I was like tell them what happened!!! and when she didnt after a reread i was kinda glad Cersei killed Lady(i know,im an asshole) just like a There you go Sansa for telling lies. And to a point(very short point) i was glad she was abused. It was very brief and stoped when Joff made her look at Neds head and she said "how long do i have to look". Then i just wanted her to smash Joff's head in.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sansa has been and will always be an opportunist. She wanted to please Joffrey so she lied. When she is threatened she made herself seem dumb and insignificant. I think she will turn out to be one of the most dangerous persons in Westeros to anyone who has wronged her and her family.

I agree! Sansa is a pawn in the game for so long, I think she will become a major player at some point!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sansa can be pretty stupid sometimes, but she manages to be brave in KL after all that happened. Give her some time


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I watched the series before starting on the books, and there's really nothing likeable about Sansa in S1.


But reading AGOT changed my view somewhat. Her being younger makes it easier to accept her naivety. She had a very sheltered upbringing, and was totally unprepared for the snakepit called King's Landing. Her only defense mechanism is what she'd been taught: be courteous, lady-like etc.


Sure she should have told the truth, but I highly doubt her education included going against a prince.


So reading the book didn't suddenly like her, but it made her actions a lot more understandable.



What I don't understand, after reading this thread, is people dissing her for liking handsome young men like Loras. She knows she has to marry some Lord or Knight someday, so all the single ones she comes across might be her future husband. Her aunt Lysa had to marry a man old enough to be her grandfather. What's so wrong about a young girl preferring a guy close to her age and goodlooking?


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's interesting you say that, Lady Cleo, because in the series I think they whitewash her a bit. In the books, she's the one that tips Cersei off about her father's plans. In the series, she does no such thing. I don't hate Sansa, but I don't find her particularly interesting (at least not until later books when her storyline picks up). It is interesting to note that while Sansa is sheltered and naive, her younger sister, who was raised in the same environment, is able to see through the civil veneer of the Lannisters.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's pretty much what it boils down to for most of fandom: Arya is just so much badass/cooler (which bores me to tears) and makes dumb naive Sansa (which I adore) look especially bad. It seems really difficult for most folk to see each of them as their own thing, independent from the other, because of the Stark logo stamped on both of them.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Eh, I don't really see them as just different halves of the same Stark coin. They are as different as two sisters can be: looks, personality, etc. They're both flawed in different ways. I like them both (just Arya's storyline in the first three books is more interesting to me).


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.