Alternative rethinking Sansa

[David Selig]

It does show Ned's sexist side. He takes a eight year old boy to a beheading yet his daughter who's eleven years old, is going to be the goddamn queen is sitting at a council meeting to do stuff (listening to testimonies, the administration of justice ) that she'll have to do later on is just too much for Ned. And this is Ned who thinks a five year old boy should start growing up.

The weird thing is that the same Ned had no problem leaving his wife in charge of the North when he left for KL and seems to highly trust her advice on political stuff.

Sansa being so sheltered and ignorant of politics has always seemed somewhat contrived and plot convenient to me. Yeah, she was only 11, but given Ned's views that three year old is old enough to be taught hard truths of life and that Cat was probably the best educated and competent politically woman in her age group, having been raised as Hoster's heir and with Ned relying a lot on her for advice and Martin's overrating of the maturity level of kids in general in the series, it seems quite unlikely. Both Ned and Cat know well that being a grand feudal lady demands a lot more than perfect manners and knowing how to sing and dance.

Mordane being chosen to be the main teacher of Sansa and Arya by the extremely practical and realistic Catelyn also seems unlikely.

[Cat of the Rivers]

The weird thing is that the same Ned had no problem leaving his wife in charge of the North when he left for KL and seems to highly trust her advice on political stuff.

Sansa being so sheltered and ignorant of politics has always seemed somewhat contrived and plot convenient to me. Yeah, she was only 11, but given Ned's views that three year old is old enough to be taught hard truths of life and that Cat was probably the best educated and competent politically woman in her age group, having been raised as Hoster's heir and with Ned relying a lot on her for advice and Martin's overrating of the maturity level of kids in general in the series, it seems quite unlikely. Both Ned and Cat know well that being a grand feudal lady demands a lot more than perfect manners and knowing how to sing and dance.

Mordane being chosen to be the main teacher of Sansa and Arya by the extremely practical and realistic Catelyn also seems unlikely.

Also Ned has a problem of keeping Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella as hostages for a couple of days but at the same time keeps Theon Greyjoy as a hostage for about a decade.

EDIT: Also it's rather unrealistic that Arya and Sansa had one measly teacher to teach them all the "womanly arts." I highly doubt that Septa Mordane is an expert at dancing, singing, playing several instruments, sewing, sums, poetry etc. How come the Stark kids didn't have more tutors? (the time they spend playing is a bit unrealistic too) Also it's implausible also that Sansa and Arya come down south with absolutely no ladies in waiting. Marge brought her cousins and the ladies of the Reach along with her while Sansa and Arya had a grand total of two women with them and one's her their and one's a steward's daughter. Catelyn doesn't have any scenes teaching her daughters life/political lessons (or any lessons for that matter) like we get from Ned to Bran in the first chapter of AGOT. And we constantly get things that Ned said to Robb or Jon. All Catelyn remembers doing is brushing Sansa's hair and which I find the pragmatic, intelligent and active Catelyn doing nothing but that for her daughters absolutely ridiculous. It's rather impossible that Sansa didn't learn anything about the big bad world from secondary sources such as Westeros's fucked up history from books in Winterfell's library.

And now that I think about a situation like the Trident incident shouldn't have happened at all. We read that Joffrey's ditched the Hound but how come nobody came looking for them or insisted that they chaperone them (seeing how Joffrey's the crown prince and Sansa's the future queen, daughter of the Hand and the Lord of Winterfell. Something like Bran's situation with the wildlings could have happened)

[Cat of the Rivers]

The most important think for Sansa isn't one stupid tourney, it is to be loved, Ned should explain why this tourney is wrong. He should talk with Sansa about the crown's debt, Sansa is very intelligent she can understand this. She would like to be considered an adult, she would like to share her father's ideas, but she can't because he does not speak with her. Ned should know how important this tourney is for Sansa.

I'd actually argue that there's a problem with Ned. The problem with Ned's attitude here is yes the tourney was an unnecessary pageantry and it's a waste of money. But it not attending it regularly and moaning about how much it sucks really makes Ned look ungrateful and it's a huge insult to Robert (even though Robert probably really wouldn't give a damn as long as if there was alcohol) which is not a smart thing to do in court.

The problem is that septa Mordane is an inappropriate teacher for a Stark of Winterfell, she instills superficial values in Sansa's mind, she does not teach her to be sincere, she teach Sansa empty courtesy. Sansa does not teach Sansa to love her family and to be proud for the north, at the tourney Mordane mocked northern knights for their look. The implication is that the Southern knights are somehow better simply because of the way they're dressed, and this is when it becomes problematic. Instead of showing support for Jory or explaining the different cultural norms, she makes an outright value judgement denigrating a Northerner because he isn't richly attired as the others around him.

With this kind of mentor is pretty obvious why Sansa does not understand the value of human life, one young boy is dead and Sansa thinks about songs. But septa Mordane isn't Sansa's mother and father, Sansa has parents who should explain:

What is Sansa supposed to mouth off and be rude? I don't really see the problem with being polite to people you'd rather not interact with. I'd say it's mature behavior.

Sansa does understand the value of human life. She's pretty disgusted with Joffrey after chopping Septa Mordane's head off (even though there was no reason to) and she interferes while Joffrey was planning on killing Ser Dontos.

[Annara Snow]

:agree:

Well said

But wouldn't it have been better for Sansa to learn more about politics and realities of the world?

Oh yes. But I'm not sure it would normally be necessary at the age of 11. And certainly not if it is meant to prepare her to be pimped out at age 14 to a drunken, womanizing, sex-addicted, irresponsible, married king in hope he would want her so much that he would set aside his wife and marry her.

[Cat of the Rivers]

Oh yes. But I'm not sure it would normally be necessary at the age of 11. And certainly not if it is meant to prepare her to be pimped out at age 14 to a drunken, womanizing, sex-addicted, irresponsible, married king in hope he would want her so much that he would set aside his wife and marry her.

Yeah the Marge/Robert thing was...questionable to say the least.

But Olenna did question Joffrey's nature and was prepared to kill him at his wedding feast to protect her granddaughter. That's more than Ned and Cat ever did (It's rather unrealistic that Ned didn't break the engagement as soon as Joffrey revealed his true colors).

[AliceRose]

Compassion

To reply Annara and Cat of the Rivers there is my theory about Sansa's compassion.

From Wikipadia: Compassion is the emotion that one feels in response to the suffering of others that motivates a desire to help. The etymology of "compassion" is Latin, meaning "co-suffering."

Compassion = co-suffering

To being able suffer the same pain with someone else is necessary understand the suffering. For example someone who has never been betrayed barely understands the feelings of someone who was betrayed.

Ned feels compassion to ser Hugh, he feels compassion to his mother, Ned lost all his family during the rebellion, he knows very well what it means to loose someone you love. Ned has seen the war against the Targaryens and against the Greyjoys, he has seen the death of his men and of his friends.

Sansa has lived a carefree life, she has never seen one men die, at the beginning of AGOT she doesn't understand the value of the human life, she has never lost anyone, Bran was broken, but he was alive.

Sansa admits this by herself, she had no idea what the death means:

AGOT 51 SANSA

Sansa had wept too, the first day. Even within the stout walls of Maegor’s Holdfast, with her door closed and barred, it was hard not to be terrified when the killing began. She had grown up to the sound of steel in the yard, and scarcely a day of her life had passed without hearing the clash of sword on sword, yet somehow knowing that the fighting was real made all the difference in the world. She heard it as she had never heard it before, and there were other sounds as well, grunts of pain, angry curses, shouts for help, and the moans of wounded and dying men. In the songs, the knights never screamed nor begged for mercy.

She doesn't care so much for Mycah not because she isn't compassionate, but because she is just a little bit """"ignorant"""" about the death. The same was with ser Hugh, she is a very compassionate person but she felt nothing to him because at the moment she didn't realize that he had a family who will suffer for him. She didn't realize this boy has dreams, he may loved someone.

The hound forces her to understand, he forces her to open her eyes and after his story she feels compassion for Sandor. For her it was the first time when she faced the cruelty, she has never thought of this kind of things before.

AGOT 29 SANSA

There was a brazier in the room. Gregor never said a word, just picked me up under his arm and shoved the side of my face down in the burning coals and held me there while I screamed and screamed. You saw how strong he is. Even then, it took three grown men to drag him off me. The septons preach about the seven hells. What do they know? Only a man who’s been burned knows what hell is truly like.

“My father told everyone my bedding had caught fire, and our maester gave me ointments. Ointments! Gregor got his ointments too. Four years later, they anointed him with the seven oils and he recited his knightly vows and Rhaegar Targaryen tapped him on the shoulder and said, ‘Arise, Ser Gregor.’ “

The rasping voice trailed off. He squatted silently before her, a hulking black shape shrouded in the night, hidden from her eyes. Sansa could hear his ragged breathing. She was sad for him, she realized. Somehow, the fear had gone away.

[Cat of the Rivers]

Compassion

To reply Annara and Cat of the Rivers there is my theory about Sansa's compassion.

From Wikipadia: Compassion is the emotion that one feels in response to the suffering of others that motivates a desire to help. The etymology of "compassion" is Latin, meaning "co-suffering."

Compassion = co-suffering

To being able suffer the same pain with someone else is necessary understand the suffering. For example someone who has never been betrayed barely understands the feelings of someone who was betrayed.

Ned feels compassion to ser Hugh, he feels compassion to his mother, Ned lost all his family during the rebellion, he knows very well what it means to loose someone you love. Ned has seen the war against the Targaryens and against the Greyjoys, he has seen the death of his men and of his friends.

Sansa has lived a carefree life, she has never seen one men die, at the beginning of AGOT she doesn't understand the value of the human life, she has never lost anyone, Bran was broken, but he was alive.

Sansa admits this by herself, she had no idea what the death means:

AGOT 51 SANSA

Sansa had wept too, the first day. Even within the stout walls of Maegor’s Holdfast, with her door closed and barred, it was hard not to be terrified when the killing began. She had grown up to the sound of steel in the yard, and scarcely a day of her life had passed without hearing the clash of sword on sword, yet somehow knowing that the fighting was real made all the difference in the world. She heard it as she had never heard it before, and there were other sounds as well, grunts of pain, angry curses, shouts for help, and the moans of wounded and dying men. In the songs, the knights never screamed nor begged for mercy.

She doesn't care so much for Mycah not because she isn't compassionate, but because she is just a little bit """"ignorant"""" about the death. The same was with ser Hugh, she is a very compassionate person but she felt nothing to him because at the moment she didn't realize that he had a family who will suffer for him. She didn't realize this boy has dreams, he may loved someone.

The hound forces her to understand, he forces her to open her eyes and after his story she feels compassion for Sandor. For her it was the first time when she faced the cruelty, she has never thought of this kind of things before.

AGOT 29 SANSA

There was a brazier in the room. Gregor never said a word, just picked me up under his arm and shoved the side of my face down in the burning coals and held me there while I screamed and screamed. You saw how strong he is. Even then, it took three grown men to drag him off me. The septons preach about the seven hells. What do they know? Only a man who’s been burned knows what hell is truly like.

“My father told everyone my bedding had caught fire, and our maester gave me ointments. Ointments! Gregor got his ointments too. Four years later, they anointed him with the seven oils and he recited his knightly vows and Rhaegar Targaryen tapped him on the shoulder and said, ‘Arise, Ser Gregor.’ “

The rasping voice trailed off. He squatted silently before her, a hulking black shape shrouded in the night, hidden from her eyes. Sansa could hear his ragged breathing. She was sad for him, she realized. Somehow, the fear had gone away.

You don't need to experience the same difficulties in order to feel compassion. For instance most people haven't suffered the way the people in Africa have. But we still feel compassion and sympathy for them even though we haven't personally gone through the same ordeal.

Sansa isn't ignorant about the death of Ser Hugh. She quietly reflects on how sad it is that the world won't remember him and moves on. It's the same way we don't feel anything for the nameless solider in the Wo5K #17864 dying during Whispering Woods. That guy might have had a wife, children and dreams. But we have no personal attachment to him so we just read on. Are we all being "ignorant" about death when we do that? No we aren't since we have no personal attachment to this character as we might for Catelyn or Ned dying.

I've personally never had a bunch of men murdered right outside my door. Does that mean I don't know what death means?

She feels compassion for the Hound because she personally had a chance to experience empathy with him. She gets an emotional attachment with him through that.

[LongRider]

The Hand's Tourney

AGOT 22 ARYA

~~snip~~

....Anger flashed across Father’s face. “Enough, Sansa. More of that and you will change my mind. I am weary unto death of this endless war you two are fighting. You are sisters. I expect you to behave like sisters, is that understood?”

...They are acting like sisters Ned, this scene is so funny to me. :lol:

......Sansa, obviously, would like to see the tourney, but more she would like to be loved by her father.

.....................snap........

To the bolded part in the last sentence. Oh boy, there is much wrong with this. Sansa knew that both her parents very strongly loved her and her siblings. Ned not wanting his daughters to go to the tourney was a reflection of his negative feelings towards the tourney in general. He thought the Hand's tourney was unnecessary and a waste of the realm's coin (and he was correct.) He may not of understood that to Sansa a tourney was a new event and so the very thought of one excited her. Ned gave in and let both of his daughters attend.

As for Ned telling Sansa "You know my feelings..." this bit of miscommunication is so common as to be barely worth noting. Sansa didn't really, and even if she did, she still wanted to go. This was not an example of Sansa begging for Ned to love her.

[Annara Snow]

The weird thing is that the same Ned had no problem leaving his wife in charge of the North when he left for KL and seems to highly trust her advice on political stuff.

Sansa being so sheltered and ignorant of politics has always seemed somewhat contrived and plot convenient to me. Yeah, she was only 11, but given Ned's views that three year old is old enough to be taught hard truths of life and that Cat was probably the best educated and competent politically woman in her age group, having been raised as Hoster's heir and with Ned relying a lot on her for advice and Martin's overrating of the maturity level of kids in general in the series, it seems quite unlikely. Both Ned and Cat know well that being a grand feudal lady demands a lot more than perfect manners and knowing how to sing and dance.

Mordane being chosen to be the main teacher of Sansa and Arya by the extremely practical and realistic Catelyn also seems unlikely.

What I find to be actually the weird thing is that the fandom usually insists that Sansa was the only one - in the Stark family and not just in the Stark family - who was sheltered, ignorant of politics, influenced by chivalric songs and myths to the point of being removed from the reality of war and politics... or the only one with superficial and stereotypical ideas of what heroes, true knights or true kings should look like.

The textual evidence says otherwise.

He was more interested in the pair that came behind him: the queen’s brothers, the Lannisters of Casterly Rock. The Lion and the Imp; there was no mistaking which was which. Ser Jaime Lannister was twin to Queen Cersei; tall and golden, with flashing green eyes and a smile that cut like a knife. He wore crimson silk, high black boots, a black satin cloak. On the breast of his tunic, the lion of his House was embroidered in gold thread, roaring its defiance. They called him the Lion of Lannister to his face and whispered “Kingslayer” behind his back.

Jon found it hard to look away from him. This is what a king should look like, he thought to himself as the man passed.

(Jon I, AGOT)

Bran was going to be a knight himself someday, one of the Kingsguard. Old Nan said they were the finest swords in all the realm. There were only seven of them, and they wore white armor and had no wives or children, but lived only to serve the king. Bran knew all the stories. Their names were like music to him. Serwyn of the Mirror Shield. Ser Ryam Redwyne. Prince Aemon the Dragonknight. The twins Ser Erryk and Ser Arryk, who had died on one another’s swords hundreds of years ago, when brother fought sister in the war the singers called the Dance of the Dragons. The White Bull, Gerold Hightower. Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. Barristan the Bold.

Two of the Kingsguard had come north with King Robert. Bran had watched them with fascination, never quite daring to speak to them. Ser Boros was a bald man with a jowly face, and Ser Meryn had droopy eyes and a beard the color of rust. Ser Jaime Lannister looked more like the knights in the stories, and he was of the Kingsguard too, but Robb said he had killed the old mad king and shouldn’t count anymore. The greatest living knight was Ser Barristan Selmy, Barristan the Bold, the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. Father had promised that they would meet Ser Barristan when they reached King’s Landing, and Bran had been marking the days on his wall, eager to depart, to see a world he had only dreamed of and begin a life he could scarcely imagine.

(Bran II, AGOT)

Why Robert was thought to be so kingly when he was young:

Would that Ned had been able to say the same. Fifteen years past, when they had ridden forth to win a throne, the Lord of Storm’s End had been clean-shaven, clear-eyed, and muscled like a maiden’s fantasy. Six and a half feet tall, he towered over lesser men, and when he donned his armor and the great antlered helmet of his House, he became a veritable giant. He’d had a giant’s strength too, his weapon of choice a spiked iron warhammer that Ned could scarcely lift. In those days, the smell of leather and blood had clung to him like perfume.

(Eddard I, AGOT)

Nobody actually bothered to tell Jon what Night’s Watch was really like, except for Tyrion, and he had an overly idealized image of the organization before he joined them.

No one had told him the Night’s Watch would be like this; no one except Tyrion Lannister. The dwarf had given him the truth on the road north, but by then it had been too late. Jon wondered if his father had known what the Wall would be like. He must have, he thought; that only made it hurt the worse.

(Jon III, AGOT)

Hot Pie was being silly; it wouldn’t be ghosts at Harrenhal, it would be knights. Arya could reveal herself to Lady Whent, and the knights would escort her home and keep her safe. That was what knights did; they kept you safe, especially women. Maybe Lady Whent would even help the crying girl.

(Arya IV, ACOK)

Lord Rowan beside her did not join the merriment. “They are all so young,” he said.

It was true. The Knight of Flowers could not have reached his second name day when Robert slew Prince Rhaegar on the Trident. Few of the others were very much older. They had been babes during the Sack of King’s Landing, and no more than boys when Balon Greyjoy raised the Iron Islands in rebellion. They are still unblooded, Catelyn thought as she watched Lord Bryce goad Ser Robar into juggling a brace of daggers. It is all a game to them still, a tourney writ large, and all they see is the chance for glory and honor and spoils. They are boys drunk on song and story, and like all boys, they think themselves immortal.

“War will make them old,” Catelyn said, “as it did us.” She had( been a girl when Robert and Ned and Jon Arryn raised their banners against Aerys Targaryen, a woman by the time the fighting was done. “I pity them.”

“Why?” Lord Rowan asked her. “Look at them. They’re young and strong, full of life and laughter. And lust, aye, more lust than they know what to do with. There will be many a bastard bred this night, I promise you. Why pity?”

“Because it will not last,” Catelyn answered, sadly. “Because they are the knights of summer, and winter is coming.”

“Lady Catelyn, you are wrong.” Brienne regarded her with eyes as blue as her armor. “Winter will never come for the likes of us. Should we die in battle, they will surely sing of us, and it’s always summer in the songs. In the songs all knights are gallant, all maids are beautiful, and the sun is always shining.”

(Catelyn II, ACOK)

Outside, she found song of a very different sort. Rymund the Rhymer sat by the brewhouse amidst a circle of listeners, his deep voice ringing as he sang of Lord Deremond at the Bloody Meadow.

And there he stood with sword in hand, the last of Darry’s ten...

Brienne paused to listen for a moment, broad shoulders hunched and thick arms crossed against her chest. A mob of ragged boys raced by, screeching and flailing at each other with sticks. Why do boys so love to play at war? Catelyn wondered if Rymund was the answer. The singer’s voice swelled as he neared the end of his song.

(Catelyn VI, ACOK)

Leobald Tallhart had his turn the following day. He spoke of weather portents and the slack wits of smallfolk, and told how his nephew itched for battle. “Benfred has raised his own company of lances. Boys, none older than nineteen years, but every one thinks he’s another young wolf. When I told them they were only young rabbits, they laughed at me. Now they call themselves the Wild Hares and gallop about the country with rabbitskins tied to the ends of their lances, singing songs of chivalry.”

Bran thought that sounded grand. He remembered Benfred Tallhart, a big bluff loud boy who had often visited Winterfell with his father, Ser Helman, and had been friendly with Robb and with Theon Greyjoy. But Ser Rodrik was clearly displeased by what he heard. “If the king were in need of more men, he would send for them,” he said. “Instruct your nephew that he is to remain at Torrhen’s Square, as his lord father commanded.”

(Bran II, ACOK)

And speaking of unrealistic adolescent fantasies…

“I am your last hope, Theon.”

I have no hope, he thought. Yet he lowered the bow half an inch and said, “I will not run.”

“I do not speak of running. Take the black.”

“The Night’s Watch?” Theon let the bow unbend slowly and pointed the arrow at the ground.

“Ser Rodrik has served House Stark all his life, and House Stark has always been a friend to the Watch. He will not deny you. Open your gates, lay down your arms, accept his terms, and he must let you take the black.”

A brother of the Night’s Watch. It meant no crown, no sons, no wife... but it meant life, and life with honor. Ned Stark’s own brother had chosen the Watch, and Jon Snow as well.

I have black garb aplenty, once I tear the krakens off Even my horse is black. I could rise high in the Watch-chief of rangers, likely even Lord Commander. Let Asha keep the bloody islands, they’re as dreary as she is. If I served at Eastwatch, I could command my own ship, and there’s fine hunting beyond the Wall. As for women, what wildling woman wouldn’t want a prince in her bed? A slow smile crept across his face, A black cloak can’t be turned. I’d be as good as any man...

(Theon VI, ACOK)

Yes, Theon, that’s right, wildling women are just crazy about the crows! And they’re really impressed with someone being a prince! :lol:

Finally, here’s someone who’s stopped being an adolescent decades ago, Ser Eustace, explaining what was so great about Daemon Blackfyre:

Egg thought about it for a time. “Yes, my lord. Only . . . King Daeron was a good man. Why would you

choose Daemon?”

“Daeron . . .” Ser Eustace almost slurred the word, and Dunk realized he was half drunk. “Daeron was

spindly and round of shoulder, with a little belly that wobbled when he walked. Daemon stood straight

and proud, and his stomach was flat and hard as an oaken shield. And he could fight. With ax or lance or

flail, he was as good as any knight I ever saw, but with the sword he was the Warrior himself. When

Prince Daemon had Blackfyre in his hand, there was not a man to equal him . . . not Ulrick Dayne with

Dawn, no, nor even the Dragonknight with Dark Sister.

“You can know a man by his friends, Egg. Daeron surrounded himself with maesters, septons, and

singers. Always there were women whispering in his ear, and his court was full of Dornishmen. How

not, when he had taken a Dornishwoman into his bed, and sold his own sweet sister to the prince of

Dorne, though it was Daemon that she loved? Daeron bore the same name as the Young Dragon, but

when his Dornish wife gave him a son he named the child Baelor, after the feeblest king who ever sat

the Iron Throne.

“Daemon, though . . . Daemon was no more pious than a king need be, and all the great knights of the

realm gathered to him. It would suit Lord Bloodraven if their names were all forgotten, so he has

forbidden us to sing of them, but I remember. Robb Reyne, Gareth the Grey, Ser Aubrey Ambrose, Lord

Gormon Peake, Black Byren Flowers, Redtusk, Fireball . . .Bittersteel! I ask you, has there ever been

such a noble company, such a roll of heroes?

“Why,lad? You ask me why? Because Daemon was the better man. The old king saw it, too. He gave the

sword to Daemon.Blackfyre, the sword of Aegon the Conquerer, the blade that every Targaryen king had

wielded since the Conquest . . . he put that sword in Daemon’s hand the day he knighted him, a boy of

twelve.”

(The Sworn Sword)

A widespread phenomenon also commented on by Maynard Plumm/Bloodraven:

"No. He is Daemon of House Blackfyre, the Second of His Name. Or so he would style himself, if ever he achieves the Iron Throne. You would be surprised to know how many lords prefer their kings brave and stupid. Daemon is young and dashing, and looks good on a horse."

(The Mystery Knight)

[AliceRose]

You don't need to experience the same difficulties in order to feel compassion. For instance most people haven't suffered the way the people in Africa have. But we still feel compassion and sympathy for them even though we haven't personally gone through the same ordeal.

Sansa isn't ignorant about the death of Ser Hugh. She quietly reflects on how sad it is that the world won't remember him and moves on. It's the same way we don't feel anything for the nameless solider in the Wo5K #17864 dying during Whispering Woods. That guy might have had a wife, children and dreams. But we have no personal attachment to him so we just read on. Are we all being "ignorant" about death when we do that? No we aren't since we have no personal attachment to this character as we might for Catelyn or Ned dying.

I've personally never had a bunch of men murdered right outside my door. Does that mean I don't know what death means?

She feels compassion for the Hound because she personally had a chance to experience empathy with him. She gets an emotional attachment with him through that.

There is no need to experience the same difficulties in order to feel compassion you are right, but in Sansa's case was needed the understanding of the suffering in order to feel compassion. We have a different opinion about ser Hugh and it is ok, i have no intentions to insist with this question. But let's talk about Mycah, he was Arya's friend, he was innocent and the prince threatened him and the hound killed him. To me it seems just to weird that Sansa had no emotions for the destiny of the boy. I'm not criticizing Sansa, i'm trying to analyze her. I think Sansa was shallow with Mycah. Sansa had a superficial vision of the death, we have her thoughts during the massacre of the tower of the hand, i repeat i'm not criticizing her, there is the text evidence. When she meets the Tyrells girls she thinks how stupid they are because the are talking about the death like it was a joke, she envies them because one day she was just like them.

[AliceRose]

To the bolded part in the last sentence. Oh boy, there is much wrong with this. Sansa knew that both her parents very strongly loved her and her siblings. Ned not wanting his daughters to go to the tourney was a reflection of his negative feelings towards the tourney in general. He thought the Hand's tourney was unnecessary and a waste of the realm's coin (and he was correct.) He may not of understood that to Sansa a tourney was a new event and so the very thought of one excited her. Ned gave in and let both of his daughters attend.

As for Ned telling Sansa "You know my feelings..." this bit of miscommunication is so common as to be barely worth noting. Sansa didn't really, and even if she did, she still wanted to go. This was not an example of Sansa begging for Ned to love her.

I exaggerated a little. It is more correct to say Sansa might enjoy the conversation with her father about the real politic in the same way she enjoys the tourney. She is a curious girl and she loves her father, it is important to her to understand him.

The single misunderstanding and lack of a talk about the tourney is nothing. The real problem is miscommunication about:

1)The Lannisters

2)The danger in King's Landing

3)Joffrey hurting innocents

4)Joffrey threatening Arya

5)Joffrey lying at court

6)Sansa """lying""" at court

7)The death of ser Hugh

8)The war should not became a game

..) the list is long..

[AliceRose]

Annara Snow, on 11 Oct 2014 - 4:58 PM, said:

1)Cynical?! What's cynical about thinking that it's sad that no songs would be sung for him?!

If you don't like the word cynical, i can use another word, shallow, Sansa was shallow with ser Hugh and Mycah

2)What was she supposed to do, cry, scream and faint over the death of someone she didn't even know?

You know we have Sansa's POV, we have her thoughts, there was no need for any physical expression of emotions, i have never told she should cry, scream and faint.

3) Be heartbroken? Is that in any way a realistic emotional reaction?

It is a realistic reaction for Sansa from the next books.

ASOS 6 SANSA

One of the Redwyne twins was being driven backward by Ser Tallad, with the eyes on his shield. Chunky Ser Kennos of Kayce, who chuffed and puffed every time he raised his longsword, seemed to be holding his own against Osney Kettleblack, but Osney’s brother Ser Osfryd was savagely punishing the frog-faced squire Morros Slynt. Blunted swords or no, Slynt would have a rich crop of bruises by the morrow. It made Sansa wince just to watch. They have

scarcely finished burying the dead from the last battle, and already they are practicing for the next one.

4) Was Bran supposed to cry, scream and faint when he saw Gared beheaded by his father?

Bran was supposed to be serious about the beheading. Ned thought Bran might be unwell after this cruel scene, Ned approached his son to explain the importance of the rite. Bran was quite upset, he was interested for the feelings of the dead man. Ned explained why was important for Bran to see the eyes of the desert, traditions of the first men require the ruler to take the responsibility for the death, the rite suppose a deep emotional connection between the victim and the killer(i can't find a better word). Bran was supposed not to be shallow about the death.

AGOT 1 BRAN

“Are you well, Bran?” he asked, not unkindly.

“Yes, Father,” Bran told him. He looked up. Wrapped in his furs and leathers, mounted on his great warhorse, his lord father loomed over him like a giant. “Robb says the man died bravely, but Jon says he was afraid.”

“What do you think?” his father asked.

Bran thought about it. “Can a man still be brave if he’s afraid?”

“That is the only time a man can be brave,” his father told him. “Do you understand why I did it?”

“He was a wildling,” Bran said. “They carry off women and sell them to the Others.”

His lord father smiled. “Old Nan has been telling you stories again. In truth, the man was an oathbreaker, a deserter from the Night’s Watch. No man is more dangerous. The deserter knows his life is forfeit if he is taken, so he will not flinch from any crime, no matter how vile. But you mistake me. The question was not why the man had to die, but why I must do it.”

Bran had no answer for that. “King Robert has a headsman,” he said, uncertainly.

“He does,” his father admitted. “As did the Targaryen kings before him. Yet our way is the older way. The blood of the First Men still flows in the veins of the Starks, and we hold to the belief that the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man’s life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die.

“One day, Bran, you will be Robb’s bannerman, holding a keep of your own for your brother and your king, and justice will fall to you. When that day comes, you must take no pleasure in the task, but neither must you look away. A ruler who hides behind paid executioners soon forgets what death is.”

5) I don't see anyone saying Bran was uncaring because he didn't look away or flinch. That was even expected of him. And he was just 7, while Sansa was 11.

I'm glad we don't see anyone saying Bran was uncaring because he didn't look away or flinch. From Bran was expected to follow his father's advices, nothing of what he did was superficial.

6) Why would you expect Sansa to cry, scream and faint?

Do I? Are you sure?

7) Because she's a girl? Because she's a girl who wants to look pretty, wear nice dresses and get married, who is good at sewing, singing and writing poetry and doesn't want to play with swords?

Pointless accuse of sexism, i can just ignore it.

8)Just out of interest, would you expect Arya to cry, scream and faint over the death of someone she didn't know? How about Jon or Robb?

Personally i do not expect anything, i'm trying to understand the reasons behind the actions. I guess lord Stark would not be pleased to hear this kind of reaction from no one of his childrens.

9) Ironically, if Sansa had screamed, cried and fainted, I am sure it would have been seen as evidence of her being a stupid, weak girly girl, not cool like Arya or her brothers.

...

10)And if Sansa didn't care about innocents suffering, how come she had Gregor pegged as a monster for killing Hugh and burning Sandor, felt compassion for Sandor when she heard his story, and was rooting for him the next day in the joust?

Until the discussion with Sandor Sansa had no thoughts about the mountain being a monster. Sandor mocks her for her naivete, he explains ser Hugh was killed. Sandor is the first one who force Sansa to think with her head and if she thinks she is intelligent, caring, curious, compassionate. My main problem is why the hell Sansa did not learn these values from her family. Why the worst teacher Eddard might expect are telling the truth to Sansa?

AGOT 29 SANSA

Sansa could not bear the sight of him, he frightened her so, yet she had been raised in all the ways of courtesy. A true lady would not notice his face, she told herself. “You rode gallantly today, Ser Sandor,” she made herself say.

Sandor Clegane snarled at her. “Spare me your empty little compliments, girl... and your ser’s. I am no knight. I spit on them and their vows. My brother is a knight. Did you see him ride today?”

“Yes,” Sansa whispered, trembling. “He was... “

“Gallant?” the Hound finished.

He was mocking her, she realized. “No one could withstand him,” she managed at last, proud of herself. It was no lie.

Sandor Clegane stopped suddenly in the middle of a dark and empty field. She had no choice but to stop beside him. “Some septa trained you well. You’re like one of those birds from the Summer Isles, aren’t you? A pretty little talking -bird, repeating all the pretty little words they taught you to recite.”

“That’s unkind.” Sansa could feel her heart fluttering in her chest. “You’re frightening me. I want to go now.”

“No one could withstand him, “ the Hound rasped. “That’s truth enough. No one could ever withstand Gregor. That boy today, his second joust, oh, that was a pretty bit of business. You saw that, did you? Fool boy, he had no business riding in this company. No money, no squire, no one to help him with that armor. That gorget wasn’t fastened proper. You think Gregor didn’t notice that? You think Ser Gregor’s lance rode up by chance, do you? Pretty little talking girl, you believe that, you’re empty-headed as a bird for true. Gregor’s lance goes where Gregor wants it to go. Look at me. Look at me!” Sandor Clegane put a huge hand under her chin and forced her face up. He squatted in front of her, and moved the torch close. “There’s a pretty for

you. Take a good long stare. You know you want to. I’ve watched you turning away all the way down the kingsroad. Piss on that. Take your look.”

His fingers held her jaw as hard as an iron trap. His eyes watched hers. Drunken eyes, sullen with anger. She had to look.

The right side of his face was gaunt, with sharp cheekbones and a grey eye beneath a heavy brow. His nose was large and hooked, his hair thin, dark. He wore it long and brushed it sideways, because no hair grew on the other side of that face.

The left side of his face was a ruin. His ear had been burned away; there was nothing left but a hole. His eye was still good, but all around it was a twisted mass of scar, slick black flesh hard as leather, pocked with craters and fissured by deep cracks that gleamed red and wet when he moved. Down by his jaw, you could see a hint of bone where the flesh had been seared away.

Sansa began to cry. He let go of her then, and snuffed out the torch in the dirt. “No pretty words for that, girl? No little compliment the septa taught you?” When there was no answer, he continued. “Most of them, they think it was some battle. A siege, a burning tower, an enemy with a torch. One fool asked if it was dragonsbreath.” His laugh was softer this time, but just as bitter. “I’ll tell you what it was, girl,” he said, a voice from the night, a shadow leaning so close now that she could smell the sour stench of wine on his breath. “I was younger than you, six, maybe seven. A woodcarver set up shop in the village under my father’s keep, and to buy favor he sent us gifts. The old man made marvelous toys. I don’t remember what I got, but it was Gregor’s gift I wanted. A wooden knight, all painted up, every joint pegged separate and fixed with strings, so you could make him fight. Gregor is five years older than me, the toy was nothing to him, he was already a squire, near six foot tall and muscled like an ox. So I took his knight, but there was no joy to it, I tell you. I was scared all the while, and true enough, he found me. There was a brazier in the room. Gregor never said a word, just picked me up under his arm and shoved the side of my face down in the burning coals and held me there while I screamed and screamed. You saw how strong he is. Even then, it took three grown men to drag him off me. The septons preach about the seven hells. What do they know? Only a man who’s been burned knows what hell is truly like.

“My father told everyone my bedding had caught fire, and our maester gave me ointments. Ointments! Gregor got his ointments too. Four years later, they anointed him with the seven oils and he recited his knightly vows and Rhaegar Targaryen tapped him on the shoulder and said, ‘Arise, Ser Gregor.’ “

The rasping voice trailed off. He squatted silently before her, a hulking black shape shrouded in the night, hidden from her eyes. Sansa could hear his ragged breathing. She was sad for him, she realized. Somehow, the fear had gone away.

The silence went on and on, so long that she began to grow afraid once more, but she was afraid for him now, not for herself. She found his massive shoulder with her hand. “He was no true knight,” she whispered to him.

The Hound threw back his head and roared. Sansa stumbled back, away from him, but he caught her arm. “No,” he growled at her, “no, little bird, he was no true knight.”

[AliceRose]

I was hopelessly trying to analyze Sansa and Sandor interaction, but i failed, i not the right person to analyze such controversial stuff. I instead i did an useful list of SanSan threads.

SanSan

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/67166-sansan-question/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/115736-do-you-like-the-idea-of-sansa-and-sandor-sansan/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/45467-sandor-and-sansa/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/87290-is-indeed-sansas-infatuation-with-the-hound-mutual/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/108103-what-are-the-hounds-feelings-for-sansa/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/68811-sandor-clegane-is-sansas-perfect-match/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/76448-sandor-clegane-is-sansa-perfect-match-ii/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/15394-sandorsansa/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/28722-sandorsansa-ii/

Sansa's memory related to Sandor

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/55521-sansas-memory-related-to-sandor/page-21

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/56165-sansas-memory-related-to-sandor-ii/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/56729-sansas-memory-related-to-sandor-iii/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/106754-a-theory-about-the-sansa-unkiss/

My favorit: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/95407-book-vs-show-characterisation-of-sansan-a-tv-critics-analysis/

And of course there is some SanSan in From Pawn to Player

REREADING SANSA

1) http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/60985-from-pawn-to-player-rereading-sansa/

2) http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/61253-from-pawn-to-player-rereading-sansa-ii/

3) http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/62509-from-pawn-to-player-rereading-sansa-iii/

4) http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/63274-from-pawn-to-player-rereading-sansa-iv/

5) http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/63638-from-pawn-to-player-rereading-sansa-v/

6) http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/64491-from-pawn-to-player-rereading-sansa-vi/

RETHINKING SANSA

1) http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/65988-from-pawn-to-player-rethinking-sansa/

2) http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/67051-from-pawn-to-player-rethinking-sansa-ii/

3) http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/68055-from-pawn-to-player-rethinking-sansa-iii/

4) http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/68726-from-pawn-to-player-rethinking-sansa-iv/

5) http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/69116-from-pawn-to-player-rethinking-sansa-v/

6) http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/69551-from-pawn-to-player-rethinking-sansa-vi/

7) http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/70258-from-pawn-to-player-rethinking-sansa-vii/

8) http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/70772-from-pawn-to-player-rethinking-sansa-viii/

9) http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/71681-from-pawn-to-player-rethinking-sansa-ix/

10) http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/72119-from-pawn-to-player-rethinking-sansa-x/

11) http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/73064-from-pawn-to-player-rethinking-sansa-xi/

12) http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/74049-from-pawn-to-player-rethinking-sansa-xii/

13) http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/74950-from-pawn-to-player-rethinking-sansa-xiii/

14) http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/75683-from-pawn-to-player-rethinking-sansa-xiv/

15) http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/76786-from-pawn-to-player-rethinking-sansa-xv/

16) http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/77924-from-pawn-to-player-rethinking-sansa-xvi/

17) http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/79240-from-pawn-to-player-rethinking-sansa-xvii/

18) http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/80323-from-pawn-to-player-rethinking-sansa-xviii/

19) http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/82942-from-pawn-to-player-rethinking-sansa-xix/

20) http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/88073-from-pawn-to-player-rethinking-sansa-xx/

21) http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/97271-from-pawn-to-player-rethinking-sansa-xxi/

[Mladen]

I am sorry, but these analyses are so wrong, they are based on tons of misconceptions regarding Sansa and OP arbitrarily made assessments regarding Sansa which makes me believe that this, "alternative" rethinking Sansa thread wasn't the best idea. Simply, when you operate with so much of wrong data, the entire purpose of rethinking becomes basically obsolete. Luckily for me, Annara covered all the analyses so all I need to reinforce some things that needed to be said here:

1. As was already said, there is no "Stark way", or Stark moral values that Sansa goes against. I find this rather hilarious when we have Bran who metally violated Hodor, Arya on killing spree, Robb who broke his word, Brandon who was described as close to rapist... And Sansa doesn't share some glorious moral values of Stark family tree? Heavens...

2. Do I need to remind people that Jon called his siblings "half-siblings"? So, are we going to go there. Sansa loved Jon, she felt great deal of affection towards him, as she did towards all of her siblings. In case we all forgot, squabbles between brothers or sisters is a natural thing.

3. Sansa's perspective on the world is on Ned and Catelyn. I am sorry, but we can't blame Cat, because she is a mother, and instead we should realize that both parents have great deal of responsibility for their children. Sansa's naivete is rather noticeable because it takes an usual form, but all of her siblings shares that: Jon's dreams about NW parallels almost to a letter Sansa's delusions about court, Arya's naivete reflects in her dealings with commoners, Robb's in believing that everyone are honorable people. So, the naivete is not something only Sansa has in Stark family.

4. The whole incident on Trident was a huge mess. Why? Because entire thing should have been handled privately by parents and the three idiots - Ned, Cersei and Robert put the weight on 11 year-old girl to decide what they proved to be incompetent. We shouldn't forget that Cersei wanted direwolves dead even in Winterfell, that Robert is moral coward without backbone, that law was against Arya (as shown in "The Hedge Knight"), that direwolves were perceived as dangerous beasts, that Robert KNEW what happened. Basically, direwolves were in danger, not either Arya or Joffrey. And given that Robert knew the truth, we simply can't argue that truth would change anything.

5. Sansa is not compassionate? OK, let me see... Dontos, Sandor, Lancel, Tyrion, Tommen, women at Maegor's Holdfast, Lollys, Margaery, SweetRobin, people at Eyrie... To all of them Sansa has shown compassion at some point. Thus, the idea of her not being compassionate is rather wrong and disproved by all above-mentioned cases.

6. Sansa "bullied" Arya? I know there was a thread about how Sansa abused Arya, believe it or not, there were people arguing that nonsense. Regardless the fact that what was happening between these two is a normal situation between such two different characters, painting the relationships between them as anything beside the normal would be terribly wrong.

7. Sansa does have strong character and personality. All the Stark children does. That is why throughout all their sorrows, they remained loyal to their family. Sansa showed incredible strength in enduring all the torments Joffrey put her through, maintaining common sense and ability to care for others. If that doesn-t show strength, I have no idea what does.

[AliceRose]

I am sorry, but these analyses are so wrong, they are based on tons of misconceptions regarding Sansa and OP arbitrarily made assessments regarding Sansa which makes me believe that this, "alternative" rethinking Sansa thread wasn't the best idea. Simply, when you operate with so much of wrong data, the entire purpose of rethinking becomes basically obsolete. Luckily for me, Annaracovered all the analyses so all I need to reinforce some things that needed to be said here:

I have some bad suspicious about your comment.

1) You have not read this thread and you are criticizing me without understanding what i'm talking about.

2) My english is awful so you can't understand me, i'm sorry in this case.

3) My english is bad so you have not read the thread entirely.

If i'm right for my last suspicious (2,3) please send me a PM, don't worry i welcome any correction.

1. As was already said, there is no "Stark way", or Stark moral values that Sansa goes against. I find this rather hilarious when we have Bran who metally violated Hodor, Arya on killing spree, Robb who broke his word, Brandon who was described as close to rapist... And Sansa doesn't share some glorious moral values of Stark family tree? Heavens...

You are right the Stark way does not exist, when i'm talking about Stark values i do a big simplification, but i'm explained in which cases i think Sansa acted against Ned's moral code. I'm talking again about Mycah.

2. Do I need to remind people that Jon called his siblings "half-siblings"? So, are we going to go there. Sansa loved Jon, she felt great deal of affection towards him, as she did towards all of her siblings. In case we all forgot, squabbles between brothers or sisters is a natural thing.

I did a re-read of Jon's chapters in GOT and i was pleased to see that Jon was worried in the same way for both his sisters being hostages in KL, he loved Sansa nearly as much as he loved Arya. Sansa loves him there is no doubts, she cares about his destiny in the night watch. I was arguing that Sansa and Jon weren't very close, i'm not criticizing a normal thing for a family, i'm just saying it is a pity Sansa had no enough confidence with Jon or Robb to talk honestly about Joffrey. They didn't even squabbles.

3. Sansa's perspective on the world is on Ned and Catelyn. I am sorry, but we can't blame Cat, because she is a mother, and instead we should realize that both parents have great deal of responsibility for their children. Sansa's naivete is rather noticeable because it takes an usual form, but all of her siblings shares that: Jon's dreams about NW parallels almost to a letter Sansa's delusions about court, Arya's naivete reflects in her dealings with commoners, Robb's in believing that everyone are honorable people. So, the naivete is not something only Sansa has in Stark family.

Sansa demonstrated more than once that her perspective on the world is on septa Mordane. Catelyn despises tourneys, Ned despises tourneys, they both think the war should not became a game, but Sansa(from AGOT) has not any idea about the futility of tourneys. Catelyn does not allow to hurt innocents, Eddard does not allow to hurt innocents, Sansa isn't worried for Mycah. Eddard despises Lannisters, Sansa(from AGOT) is eager to marry a Lannister. Both Ned and Cat are proud, direct and sincere, Sansa(from AGOT) isn't. Ned. Ned despises the liars, Sansa wanted to marry a liar.

I have never blamed Catelyn, even once. You have not read the previous posts. I blame Ned a lot.

4. The whole incident on Trident was a huge mess. Why? Because entire thing should have been handled privately by parents and the three idiots - Ned, Cersei and Robert put the weight on 11 year-old girl to decide what they proved to be incompetent. We shouldn't forget that Cersei wanted direwolves dead even in Winterfell, that Robert is moral coward without backbone, that law was against Arya (as shown in "The Hedge Knight"), that direwolves were perceived as dangerous beasts, that Robert KNEW what happened. Basically, direwolves were in danger, not either Arya or Joffrey. And given that Robert knew the truth, we simply can't argue that truth would change anything.

You have not read my post about the Trident incident sadly.

5. Sansa is not compassionate? OK, let me see... Dontos, Sandor, Lancel, Tyrion, Tommen, women at Maegor's Holdfast, Lollys, Margaery, SweetRobin, people at Eyrie... To all of them Sansa has shown compassion at some point. Thus, the idea of her not being compassionate is rather wrong and disproved by all above-mentioned cases.

Sansa wasn't compassionate with Mycah, i'm just trying to understand why, we know she is a very compassionate person, but in this case she wasn't.

6. Sansa "bullied" Arya? I know there was a thread about how Sansa abused Arya, believe it or not, there were people arguing that nonsense. Regardless the fact that what was happening between these two is a normal situation between such two different characters, painting the relationships between them as anything beside the normal would be terribly wrong.

You have not read this thread and you are blaming me for something i have never told, genial.

7. Sansa does have strong character and personality. All the Stark children does. That is why throughout all their sorrows, they remained loyal to their family. Sansa showed incredible strength in enduring all the torments Joffrey put her through, maintaining common sense and ability to care for others. If that doesn-t show strength, I have no idea what does.

I'm talking about Sansa from AGOT, i agree with you, she demonstrates her strength later.

[Mladen]

I have some bad suspicious about your comment.

1) You have not read this thread and you are criticizing me without understanding what i'm talking about.

2) My english is awful so you can't understand me, i'm sorry in this case.

3) My english is bad so you have not read the thread entirely.

I will say this only once, to evade the further repetition. I have read entire thread, it is a short one, and didn't take much time, and I made my conclusions based on what I have read. I read it carefully, word to word, and I decided that what I have read simply isn't in accordance to what we have in the books. That is just my opinion, and basically means nothing. But, it is my opinion formed upon reading your posts and posts of other people.

You are right the Stark way does not exist, when i'm talking about Stark values i do a big simplification, but i'm explained in which cases i think Sansa acted against Ned's moral code. I'm talking again about Mycah.

There is not such thing as Stark moral code. There is no such thing as any family moral code, since every family is composed of members who varies in their personalities. Sansa didn't act against Ned's moral code, and it can be argued that of all his children (with probable exception of Jon), she is the closest to what we have to Ned's moral code and personality.

I did a re-read of Jon's chapters in GOT and i was pleased to see that Jon was worried in the same way for both his sisters being hostages in KL, he loved Sansa nearly as much as he loved Arya. Sansa loves him there is no doubts, she cares about his destiny in the night watch. I was arguing that Sansa and Jon weren't very close, i'm not criticizing a normal thing for a family, i'm just saying it is a pity Sansa had no enough confidence with Jon or Robb to talk honestly about Joffrey. They didn't even squabbles.

Yes, they weren't close as Arya and Jon are, but I have no idea what you talk about when you say "Sansa had no enough confidence with Jon or Robb". We should remember that Joffrey played the role of perfect prince rather nicely, and that nothing of the troublesome signs didn't come to Sansa. More than that, we have seen that Ned finds out the problematic nature of his future son-in-law, that he knows how Sansa was in love with him, and he just let it be. Generally, I understand 12 year-old girl naivete, what I don't understand why her parent didn't react.

Sansa demonstrated more than once that her perspective on the world is on septa Mordane. Catelyn despises tourneys, Ned despises tourneys, they both think the war should not became a game, but Sansa(from AGOT) has not any idea about the futility of tourneys. Catelyn does not allow to hurt innocents, Eddard does not allow to hurt innocents, Sansa isn't worried for Mycah. Eddard despises Lannisters, Sansa(from AGOT) is eager to marry a Lannister. Both Ned and Cat are proud, direct and sincere, Sansa(from AGOT) isn't.

I have never blamed Catelyn, even once. You have not read the previous posts. I blame Ned a lot.

Actually, you are wrong. Sansa's perspective on the world comes from both Septa and her parents. The view on tourneys is not something we can properly assess her mindset. Well, tourneys are not futile. They are cultural events of such society. Ned most likely have rather bad memories from Tourney at Harrenhal, and Catelyn is rather thrown back at what Renly did. But, the tourneys are not something we should see as indicator of different mindset.

The distinction you made between Cat and Ned regarding hurting innocents on one and Sansa on another side, would actually work if we didn't see Sansa stepping up to save Dontos, or lifting up Tommen's spirit, or being sympathetic towards hungry people of KL, or helping Lancel and women during Blackwater battle, or helping SR. So, to imply that Sansa does not care for innocents is completely wrong and it ignores lion's share of her storyarc.

Ned despises Lannisters. IN SECRECY. When you look at things from Sansa's POV, her father have no objections of her marrying Joffrey. He is fine with it and behaves that way. Again, this is not something you can logically use to differ Sansa from her parents, given that Ned have reasons to hate Lannisters, but he never actually shares that with his daughter. Or shares the concerns he has about family his daughter is marrying into. Even after he finds out that Joffrey is complete psychopath.

Sansa wasn't compassionate with Mycah, i'm just trying to understand why, we know she is a very compassionate person, but in this case she wasn't.

Sansa was someone who at the time endured significant loss. I understand that is not excuse, and that she should have felt sorrow over Mycah's death, but her emotional state after Lady's death is off. She cries every night, she didn't eat, she wanted to be alone. Sansa endured a huge emotional blow, and in those circumstances it is at least understandable why she focused all of her grief to her personal loss. I suppose, that of course, she unjustly blamed Arya and Mycah for what happened and she simply lacked appropriate objective view on things.

So, in conclusion, yeah I have read your posts and this entire thread. I just happen to disagree with your views. That's all.

[AliceRose]

What is Sansa supposed to mouth off and be rude? I don't really see the problem with being polite to people you'd rather not interact with. I'd say it's mature behavior.

Sansa’s courtesy, the first step to lie.

Sansa has an interesting and complex relationship with the lying. From the beginning she does not share Eddard's ideas about the liars, she does not change her opinion about Joffrey after seeing his false testimony.

For Eddard the truth is more important than his life.

For Sansa her future husband is more important than the truth.

She follows the way septa has suggested, a husband is more important than everything else. Mordane is the one who teach courtesy to Sansa. I have called her lessons empty courtesy, i'm not suggesting Sansa should be rude, but in my opinion septa has exaggerated with Sansa's education. Ned, Cat, Robb, Jon are polite people, they aren't rude, but they are sincere and proud they have no fear to express their opinion(Arya is sincere but she isn't polite), Sansa force herself to be gentle and accommodating even when she isn't pleased to do so. I can't image Catelyn to act like Sansa if she thinks someone isn't respectful with her.

Sansa is frightened by the Hound, she does not enjoy his company and she is offended when Sandor mocks her, but Sansa does not reacts, she is trying her best to act like a lady even when she dislikes it.

My concept of empty courtesy is exactly the same that Sandor has expressed, Sansa was "lying"(she wasn't sincere) to him, he was well aware she avoided to look at him during the journey. Sandor wants to breake her courtesy armor, he wants to speak with a person and not with a little bird.

AGOT 29 SANSA

Sansa could not bear the sight of him, he frightened her so, yet she had been raised in all the ways of courtesy. A true lady would not notice his face, she told herself. “You rode gallantly today, Ser Sandor,” she made herself say.

Sandor Clegane snarled at her. “Spare me your EMPTY LITTLE COMPLIMENTS, girl... and your ser’s. I am no knight. I spit on them and their vows. My brother is a knight. Did you see him ride today?”

“Yes,” Sansa whispered, trembling. “He was... “

“Gallant?” the Hound finished.

He was mocking her, she realized. “No one could withstand him,” she managed at last, proud of herself. It was no lie.

Sandor Clegane stopped suddenly in the middle of a dark and empty field. She had no choice but to stop beside him. “Some septa trained you well. You’re like one of those birds from the Summer Isles, aren’t you? A pretty little talking -bird, repeating all the pretty little words they taught you to recite.”

“That’s unkind.” Sansa could feel her heart fluttering in her chest. “You’re frightening me. I want to go now.”

“No one could withstand him, “ the Hound rasped. “That’s truth enough. No one could ever withstand Gregor. That boy today, his second joust, oh, that was a pretty bit of business. You saw that, did you? Fool boy, he had no business riding in this company. No money, no squire, no one to help him with that armor. That gorget wasn’t fastened proper. You think Gregor didn’t notice that? You think Ser Gregor’s lance rode up by chance, do you? Pretty little talking girl, you believe that, you’re empty-headed as a bird for true. Gregor’s lance goes where Gregor wants it to go. Look at me. Look at me!” Sandor Clegane put a huge hand under her chin and forced her face up. He squatted in front of her, and moved the torch close. “There’s a pretty for

you. Take a good long stare. You know you want to. I’ve watched you turning away all the way down the kingsroad. Piss on that. Take your look.”

His fingers held her jaw as hard as an iron trap. His eyes watched hers. Drunken eyes, sullen with anger. She had to look.

The right side of his face was gaunt, with sharp cheekbones and a grey eye beneath a heavy brow. His nose was large and hooked, his hair thin, dark. He wore it long and brushed it sideways, because no hair grew on the other side of that face.

The left side of his face was a ruin. His ear had been burned away; there was nothing left but a hole. His eye was still good, but all around it was a twisted mass of scar, slick black flesh hard as leather, pocked with craters and fissured by deep cracks that gleamed red and wet when he moved. Down by his jaw, you could see a hint of bone where the flesh had been seared away.

Sansa began to cry. He let go of her then, and snuffed out the torch in the dirt. “No pretty words for that, girl? No little compliment the septa taught you?” When there was no answer, he continued.

Sansa wasn't like her family, she had a different conception about honesty, sincerity and lying. But i think her being different is her greatest quality, she understands when is better to hide her true emotions. She accepts and understands politically convenient behaviour. I think septa Mordane was her first teacher in the art of excellent lying.

[AliceRose]

Stark’s mindest

Most of you said an absolutely right thing there is no Stark way, all of them have an unique personality. The values of current generation of Starks are Eddard's values and Catelyn's values. Stark children weren't born with a particular mindset, their character is a product of education and personal experience. In AGOT we have a chance to see which part of Sansa's character is merit of Stark's education and which part is merit of her own experience.

Did Sansa learn to protect* innocents at Winterfell? *(I'm aware Sansa could not protect Mycah, but at least she might realize Joffrey was doing something wrong.)

No she didn't, when Joffrey was hurting Mycah Sansa wasn't upset about it, nor at the exact moment of incident, nor after.

Has Sansa learnt that hurting innocents is wrong from her father?

No she hasn’t, Eddard did nothing to explain the situation to his daughter and she wrongly blamed the poor boy.

Sansa learnt to be compassionate and caring thanks to Sandor's influences, she learnt to feel empathy toward him. Also she learnt the compassion through of her own tragic experience. The result seems the same Eddard is compassionate and Sansa is compassionate, but Sansa isn't Eddard 2.0, Sansa is Sansa, her character is merit of her own experience.

Sansa isn't compassionate with Mycah's death because she endured an significative personal loss, here i have to agree with Mladen.

Has Sansa learnt the value of honesty from her father?

No she hasn’t, Joffrey's lie at court wasn't a problem for Sansa. She was angry with Joffrey for what he did with Lady, but she has never been angry with him for hurting Mycah, threatening Arya, offending Arya, lying at court.

What Eddard did to teach his values of honesty to Sansa?

Nothing, he didn't break the betrothal with a psychopath liar, he did not speak with Sansa about the problem.

Has Sansa learnt to despise Lannisters from her father?

No she hasn't, she was forced to understand who are the Lannisters through the terrible experience with them.

All of us agree that family's values do not pass through DNA. The only way Eddard's values might pass to Sansa is education and communication, but the fact i'm desperately trying to demonstrate is: father and daughter had a terrible lack of communication and Ned wasn't present enough in Sansa's education.

Yes Sansa is compassionate, but this does not make her like Ned. She is more adaptable, she is open minded, she is curious about politics. Through the books Sansa acquires a very advanced mindset about the marriage and bastards, she is the most progressive Stark in theme of arranged marriages.

[Mladen]

I will just say one thing: You do not get taught to be compassionate. You are compassionate or you aren't. It is that simple.

[lady jellybean]

ok iam the first to admit that sansa us my least favorite character in all the books. Which is why I read this hoping to get some insight from a different point of view. but I do have one question. You kept pointing out Ned never explained himself, yet we have so many other instances of Ned explaing things to bran, rob, arya, and jon. Why do you think he never tried to explain anything to sansa.

Thank you by the way I enjoyed reading it.