Six Pups in the Snow: A Direwolves Reread

[Harlaw's Book the Sequel]

 

I think you have to compare Grey Wind biting off Greatjon's fingers to Stannis cutting off Davos Seaworth's fingers. Both of the victims remain loyal to their kings after being maimed, even showing some admiration for the way this punishment or discipline displayed kingly values or behavior, worthy of loyalty. I'm rusty, so correct me if I'm wrong, but Greatjon never becomes an official Hand of the King for Robb, but is definitely a right-hand-man, so to speak. Davos eventually does become Hand of the King for Stannis. It seems significant to me that both King Stannis and King-in-the-North Robb rely on close supporters who have maimed hands. (Robb also gets a lot of advice from Catelyn, whose hand is badly injured when she grabs the blade of the dagger to defend Bran.)

 

Maybe the Kings-taking-fingers pattern underscores GRRM's theme about people who have paid a price in life - those who have gone through the school of hard knocks - being the most compassionate and wise people, and the most useful advisers for a king. By contrast, Little Finger inherited "The Fingers," which turn out to be barren, rocky and relatively worthless pieces of land. The character who seems to have no soul and who is loyal to no one has worthless fingers that came to him by birth, not through difficulty or merit. (Further complicating things, it is Little Finger who orders that some of Marillion's fingers be cut off as a way of torturing a confession from him in the murder of Lysa Tully.)

 

Qhorin Halfhand provides a further example. Although Jon Snow doesn't cause him to lose his fingers, he did lose them in battle with a wildling and Jon is strongly associated with wildlings. Also, tying in to another of your good observations in this analysis, Ghost bites Qhorin on the thigh when Jon is about to kill Qhorin. You point out that Shaggydog bites Mikken, the blacksmith, on the thigh. I wonder whether a direwolf bite takes some of the "power" from the person who is bitten and transmits it to the direwolf's person? So Rickon gets some smith and cook magic when Shaggydog bites Gage and Mikken; Jon gets a piece of Qhorin Halfhand's ranging and warrior skill when Ghost bites him. Of course Nymeria has bitten Joffrey . . .

 

I think there's another character who has lost some fingers to frostbite. Maybe that foreshadows that Winter is the equivalent of a King in this world.

 

Nice finds!

 

Davos thinks of Stannis taking his finger as something that is "just."  Here we have the Greatjon breaking the law by drawing his sword, and Robb through Grey Wind is enforcing the law, so there is an element of justice to it as well.  The Greatjon saying Robb is a Stark after all may not be just because he thinks Robb is a badass but also a realization that Robb is going to be someone who upholds the law, which seems very important to the northern bannerman --as evidenced in the Liddle's "when there was a Stark in Winterfell" speech to Bran and co. in ASOS.  In contrast, Ramsay's mutilation of Lady Hornwood and Theon's hands is not justice.  

 

I agree the Greatjon is one of Robb's de facto Hands along with Cat and the Blackfish.  Also he's the one to come up with the idea of crowning Robb.   

 

The being bitten by direwolf theory you bring up is intriguing.  In comparing Starks to the Seven threads, Rickon often gets paired with the Smith.  Obviously, biting Mikken and gaining "blacksmith magic" is an easy comparison to the Smith, but going off Septon Meribald's speech about how the Smith could easily be called the Shoemaker or etc, I think the gaining of "cook magic" would also be Rickon getting another aspect of the Smith within him.  In regards to Jon and the Halfhand, I would also add that Jon gains empathy and respect for the Wildings from him as well.

 

There does seem some sort of reverence surrounding physical contact with a direwolf.  I didn't mention it in the analysis, but there is a sentence about Bran wanting to touch Summer.  We're discussing Grey Wind and the Greatjon encounter.  Earlier there was Summer licking blood off Cat's hands.  Later on there will be Mel's infamous "May I touch your wolf."  All of it brings to mind how people feel blessed (maybe even empowered) after touching religious figures or artifacts.  

[Seams]

Nice finds!
 
Davos thinks of Stannis taking his finger as something that is "just."  Here we have the Greatjon breaking the law by drawing his sword, and Robb through Grey Wind is enforcing the law, so there is an element of justice to it as well.  The Greatjon saying Robb is a Stark after all may not be just because he thinks Robb is a badass but also a realization that Robb is going to be someone who upholds the law, which seems very important to the northern bannerman --as evidenced in the Liddle's "when there was a Stark in Winterfell" speech to Bran and co. in ASOS.  In contrast, Ramsay's mutilation of Lady Hornwood and Theon's hands is not justice.  
 
I agree the Greatjon is one of Robb's de facto Hands along with Cat and the Blackfish.  Also he's the one to come up with the idea of crowning Robb.   
 
The being bitten by direwolf theory you bring up is intriguing.  In comparing Starks to the Seven threads, Rickon often gets paired with the Smith.  Obviously, biting Mikken and gaining "blacksmith magic" is an easy comparison to the Smith, but going off Septon Meribald's speech about how the Smith could easily be called the Shoemaker or etc, I think the gaining of "cook magic" would also be Rickon getting another aspect of the Smith within him.  In regards to Jon and the Halfhand, I would also add that Jon gains empathy and respect for the Wildings from him as well.
 
There does seem some sort of reverence surrounding physical contact with a direwolf.  I didn't mention it in the analysis, but there is a sentence about Bran wanting to touch Summer.  We're discussing Grey Wind and the Greatjon encounter.  Earlier there was Summer licking blood off Cat's hands.  Later on there will be Mel's infamous "May I touch your wolf."  All of it brings to mind how people feel blessed (maybe even empowered) after touching religious figures or artifacts.

 
Excellent and interesting points!
 
With regard to your point about Ramsay's treatment of Lady Hornwood and Theon's fingers, I agree that it is important to distinguish between "Finger lickin' good" (an advertising slogan in the U.S.) and "finger lickin' bad." ;) You've perfectly described the difference, I suspect, by noting that Stannis and Robb/Grey Wind were upholding the law, while Ramsay appears to be just a psychopath who enjoys torturing people for his own entertainment.
 
Maybe it's worth considering Cersei in this context as well, as she eventually delivers her HANDmaid, Senelle, to Qyburn for torture experiments after Taena Merryweather tells Cersei that Senelle is a spy for Margaery. Speaking of Cersei, I was pondering some of your other insightful notes about this chapter:
 
 

Observations

Analysis

• Robb says Cat would skin him for a pelt if he let anything happen to Bran.    
• Summers eyes are described as smoldering like liquid gold.
• Roose Bolton and Robett Glover might be another smiler and slayer pair. 
• Robbs shield features the snarling face of a direwolf.

The Karstarks

• Bran doesnt think they look like Starks.  Theyre wilder, hairier, etc.  Their description seems reminiscent of Neds description of the Kings of winter.  On one hand, Ned is relieved the current Starks are no longer like the Starks of old.  One the other hand, does this mean the Starks have lost a valuable part of their house identity?  Are the Karstarks more Starklike than the Starks?
• The Karstarks wear skins of wolf, bear, and seal.  Weve seen wolves and bears mentioned together before.  Members of House Farwynd in the Iron Islands are reputed to skinchange into sea animals.  So are the Karstarks wearing these particular animals something akin to the theories that Boltons flay and wear human flesh to emulate/mock skinchanging; therefore, hinting at the future conflict between Stark and Karstark?  Or is it hinting that the Karstarks could possibly be skinchangers too?

Ladys return

• Neds guardsmen have returned Lady to Winterfell, and she was in the lichyard where the Kings of Winter buried their faithful servants.
• The choice of burial place indicates its meant to honor Lady.  It also seems like another indication of the old ways coming back.
• Ladys brothers stalk the graveyard like restless shadows.
• Grey Wind, Summer, and Shaggys grief for Lady is able to unite them for a short amount of time.

 
 
Cersei made a big deal about wanting Robert to present her with Lady's pelt after the direwolf is put to death. (She wants it laid across her bed, as I recall, which raises another interesting set of symbols relating to Cersei's "bedwarmers".) Here is Catelyn, who is clearly intended to be compared to Cersei at various points in the books, threatening to take the pelt of her oldest child. We know that Catelyn cares about Robb, and that threatening to skin him is a figure of speech intended to emphasize the importance of looking after Bran. I think GRRM is symbolically showing here, though, that Robb is already now "the young wolf." He has a pelt and it would be a trophy that is worth having; worthy of a queen-mother. There is also a shared theme around protecting a child: Robb is charged with protecting Bran. Cersei wanted a direwolf punished for biting her child, the prince. We know that Nymeria was protecting the child Mycah at Arya's direction when she bit Joffrey. I don't know if the point is that direwolves are at risk if they DO protect chidren as well as when they fail to protect children? Or maybe part of GRRM's larger point about there being both justice and injustice in the world. (Of course, Nymeria does survive and Lady, the innocent bystander, does not. So maybe the point is that protecting children is the right thing to do and passively standing by puts you at risk?)
 
We also know that Ned wanted to make sure that Cersei did not get Lady's pelt or any part of her. As you describe, the direwolf's bones are delivered to Winterfell to be buried in the North, in a place of honor. The care taken to keep Lady's remains away from Cersei is important later, as we learn that Ned's bones have not yet returned to Winterfell (and never will, if Lady Dustin gets her way) and that Robb's body has had Grey Wind's head sewn to it. Was his body eventually thrown in the river, like Catelyn's, or do we not yet know where Robb's bones are? Maybe this is part of the point you made in your reply about the "reverence surrounding physical contact with a direwolf." The pelt and bones are important and have to be kept out of the wrong hands. Maybe that is the way that humans take back the direwolf magic that the direwolves can take (or transmit) by biting. (And I'm always thinking of the next tangent or connection - the skulls of the dragons in the crypts beneath King's Landing probably fit this thinking, too. Would Robert have been a more effective King if he had kept the skulls in the throne room instead of moving them out of sight?)
 
It seems as if the furs worn by the Karstarks really must be analyzed when they are so carefully mentioned in the same chapter with these other direwolf remains and with Robb's pelt. So many people wear furs and skins and pelts (and leather - not to mention wildlings wearing bones and skulls) that it's hard to single out the meaning of this kind of attire. Maybe this ties into that same just/unjust duality that applies to amputating fingers: Richard Karstark eventually breaks the law by killing two young Lannisters as revenge for Jaime Lannister slaying two of his sons in combat. King Robb notes that the Karstarks were killed "legally," during combat, while the Lannister boys were captives who were unjustly murdered. Alys Karstark seems like a sympathetic character, so far, and we don't know much about her brother, Harrion, except that he has changed sides after his father's execution. So maybe there are just people who wear furs as well as unjust. Maybe they are skinchangers, or maybe just wanna-be-skinchangers. Instead of Stark grey, the Karstarks wear black and white. The wiki notes that the Karstarks also wear black wool cloaks when they arrive at Winterfell, so they're not entirely dressed in furs. Maybe the Karstarks haven't sorted out how to walk the fine line between magic and non-magic; justice and injustice.

[Harlaw's Book the Sequel]

@ Seams, lol in regards to the “Finger lickin’ good” vs.  “Finger lickin’ bad.”  Thanks for giving me a lot to think about and extrapolate from.      

 

 

 

 

 
Maybe it's worth considering Cersei in this context as well, as she eventually delivers her HANDmaid, Senelle, to Qyburn for torture experiments after Taena Merryweather tells Cersei that Senelle is a spy for Margaery. Speaking of Cersei, I was pondering some of your other insightful notes about this chapter:
 
 
Cersei made a big deal about wanting Robert to present her with Lady's pelt after the direwolf is put to death. (She wants it laid across her bed, as I recall, which raises another interesting set of symbols relating to Cersei's "bedwarmers".) Here is Catelyn, who is clearly intended to be compared to Cersei at various points in the books, threatening to take the pelt of her oldest child. We know that Catelyn cares about Robb, and that threatening to skin him is a figure of speech intended to emphasize the importance of looking after Bran. I think GRRM is symbolically showing here, though, that Robb is already now "the young wolf." He has a pelt and it would be a trophy that is worth having; worthy of a queen-mother. There is also a shared theme around protecting a child: Robb is charged with protecting Bran. Cersei wanted a direwolf punished for biting her child, the prince. We know that Nymeria was protecting the child Mycah at Arya's direction when she bit Joffrey. I don't know if the point is that direwolves are at risk if they DO protect chidren as well as when they fail to protect children? Or maybe part of GRRM's larger point about there being both justice and injustice in the world. (Of course, Nymeria does survive and Lady, the innocent bystander, does not. So maybe the point is that protecting children is the right thing to do and passively standing by puts you at risk?)
 
We also know that Ned wanted to make sure that Cersei did not get Lady's pelt or any part of her. As you describe, the direwolf's bones are delivered to Winterfell to be buried in the North, in a place of honor. The care taken to keep Lady's remains away from Cersei is important later, as we learn that Ned's bones have not yet returned to Winterfell (and never will, if Lady Dustin gets her way) and that Robb's body has had Grey Wind's head sewn to it. Was his body eventually thrown in the river, like Catelyn's, or do we not yet know where Robb's bones are? Maybe this is part of the point you made in your reply about the "reverence surrounding physical contact with a direwolf." The pelt and bones are important and have to be kept out of the wrong hands. Maybe that is the way that humans take back the direwolf magic that the direwolves can take (or transmit) by biting. (And I'm always thinking of the next tangent or connection - the skulls of the dragons in the crypts beneath King's Landing probably fit this thinking, too. Would Robert have been a more effective King if he had kept the skulls in the throne room instead of moving them out of sight?)
 
 

 

Cersei also tends to to run afoul of Hands of the Kings (and people she proposes to be Hand of the King).  Comparing Robb and Stannis against Ramsay and Cersei, it shows that Ramsay and Cersei’s injustices are severe missteps in their reigns because where Robb and Stannis create diehard supporters, Ramsay and Cersei create enemies.   

 

To intertwine a few of your points, you’ve reminded me that Cersei’s methodology is to get someone else to do her dirty work for her.  In contrast, despite Robb’s remark of Cat skinning him being a jest, Cat has more steel in her character than Cersei does, so I more readily believe Cat being capable of skinning someone herself rather than Cersei.  Cat seems to be in between the philosophies of having to do it yourself (like the decision to go to Kings Landing or when the Mountain Clans attacks, which IIRC is the same chapter where Tyrion describes her as she-wolf) and getting others to do her bidding (like she did at the Crossroads Inn).

 

 

I agree it’s extremely important to keep pelt and bones out of the wrong hands for both symbolic and magical reasons.  Cersei having Lady’s pelt spread over bed would be a great symbolic victory over the Starks.  The pelt and bones could also be used for glamors or FM style skinchanging.  Even if the pelt and bones were still part of living organism, there is still a danger of being in the wrong hands –like Varamyr wanting to take Jon from Ghost.  A lot of abuse and perversion could happen.  Where Robb’s bones ended is (sadly) a very good question.  

 

Going to back to the idea of biting of transmitting magic, werewolves are typically created from the bite of another werewolf.  Here, we have Greywind biting Greatjon, which transform the Greatjon into Robb’s greatest champion –essentially being another direwolf for Robb.  However, the Greatjon is in opposition to Osha, and he prevents her from telling Robb to go north and will later suggest or support decisions that keeps Robb away from fighting the Others.          

 

         

 

 

 
 
It seems as if the furs worn by the Karstarks really must be analyzed when they are so carefully mentioned in the same chapter with these other direwolf remains and with Robb's pelt. So many people wear furs and skins and pelts (and leather - not to mention wildlings wearing bones and skulls) that it's hard to single out the meaning of this kind of attire. Maybe this ties into that same just/unjust duality that applies to amputating fingers: Richard Karstark eventually breaks the law by killing two young Lannisters as revenge for Jaime Lannister slaying two of his sons in combat. King Robb notes that the Karstarks were killed "legally," during combat, while the Lannister boys were captives who were unjustly murdered. Alys Karstark seems like a sympathetic character, so far, and we don't know much about her brother, Harrion, except that he has changed sides after his father's execution. So maybe there are just people who wear furs as well as unjust. Maybe they are skinchangers, or maybe just wanna-be-skinchangers. Instead of Stark grey, the Karstarks wear black and white. The wiki notes that the Karstarks also wear black wool cloaks when they arrive at Winterfell, so they're not entirely dressed in furs. Maybe the Karstarks haven't sorted out how to walk the fine line between magic and non-magic; justice and injustice.

 

 

The Karstarks do seem all over the place.  Rickard’s line appears to have different views from his uncle’s line.  Rickard’s younger sons disapprove of Bran but give their lives for Robb.  There’s also the fact the Karstarks are the only surviving cadet branch.  It’s interesting that you noted the Karstarks didn’t adopt grey as one of their colors while the Greystarks –the cadet branch the Starks wiped out for siding with the Boltons –presumably did.  In my mind it paints a picture of a House that could go either way in their loyalties.    

 

Kind of related, wolves (regular and direwolves) and bears have been mentioned together a few times in a way that implies they’re allies.  Although Houses Stark and Mormont are allies, the relationships among the humans that take direwolves and bears as their symbols are strained.  Ned and Jorah deeply despise each other.  Maege is throwing her weight around with Robb.  It’s implied that Benjen and Jeor have a good relationship, but it’s not elaborated upon.  And Jeor doesn’t really notice Jon until he investigates the dead rangers’ corpses.  Once Robb and Jon start proving themselves to Maege and Jeor –with Greywind and Ghost’s help I might add –the rift between the bear and the direwolf gets healed.   

[Eiko Dragonhorn]

"Stark grey"...

 

White is their more important color...

 

White wax, white maiden's cloaks...

 

Not that it matters much - but leaving grey out of their sigil certainly doesn't make the Karstarks treasonous. I'm fairly sure they do wear furs as well.

[Seams]

Cersei made a big deal about wanting Robert to present her with Lady's pelt after the direwolf is put to death. (She wants it laid across her bed, as I recall, which raises another interesting set of symbols relating to Cersei's "bedwarmers".) Here is Catelyn, who is clearly intended to be compared to Cersei at various points in the books, threatening to take the pelt of her oldest child. We know that Catelyn cares about Robb, and that threatening to skin him is a figure of speech intended to emphasize the importance of looking after Bran.

To intertwine a few of your points, youve reminded me that Cerseis methodology is to get someone else to do her dirty work for her.  In contrast, despite Robbs remark of Cat skinning him being a jest, Cat has more steel in her character than Cersei does, so I more readily believe Cat being capable of skinning someone herself rather than Cersei.  Cat seems to be in between the philosophies of having to do it yourself (like the decision to go to Kings Landing or when the Mountain Clans attacks, which IIRC is the same chapter where Tyrion describes her as she-wolf) and getting others to do her bidding (like she did at the Crossroads Inn).
 
I agree its extremely important to keep pelt and bones out of the wrong hands for both symbolic and magical reasons.  Cersei having Ladys pelt spread over bed would be a great symbolic victory over the Starks.  The pelt and bones could also be used for glamors or FM style skinchanging.  Even if the pelt and bones were still part of living organism, there is still a danger of being in the wrong hands like Varamyr wanting to take Jon from Ghost.  A lot of abuse and perversion could happen.  Where Robbs bones ended is (sadly) a very good question.

I apologize that I'm hogging this thread, but you've really gotten me thinking about some pieces of the GRRM puzzle in a new way.

We sorted out earlier on this thread that Cersei is probably talking about Rhaegar, not Robert, when she said, "The king I'd thought to marry would have laid a wolfskin across my bed before the sun went down." Now it occurs to me that Cersei's desire to obtain the pelt of a Stark she-wolf could represent the rivalry she felt - not towards Rhaegar's wife, but toward Lyanna Stark, the woman that Robert and (probably) Rhaegar both loved. Cersei uses her sexuality as a weapon to manipulate others, as you point out. Her idea of a victory in life would be to use that "she-wolf" pelt as a bedwarmer, symbolically taking on the power and warging into the skin of her greatest rival.

Initially, she wanted the skin of Arya's wolf, Nymeria. This is the wolf that bit her son. If the surmise is correct that a direwolf bite means that the wolf can transmit some essence of the bitten person, does this mean that Cersei wanted to possess some essence of Joffrey that would have come from Nymeria's pelt or bones? It might be a way of foreshadowing Cersei's intention to become Queen Regent for her underage son. Or maybe it's a way to possess and manipulate him without directly using her sexuality: she didn't hesitate to sleep with her brother, but maybe she draws the line at trying to sleep with her son.

Maybe it's not Joffrey's essence she would gain by taking Nymeria's pelt, but some quality of Arya's. Cersei felt it was unjust that Jaime was allowed to be a knight when they were kids while she was steered toward ladylike pursuits. Arya is living the life of a tomboy that Cersei would have liked to enjoy when she was a kid. Lyanna and Arya are supposed to be alike, so this may be the better match for the idea that Cersei wants to "warg" Lyanna by having the pelt of a female direwolf on her bed.

But Cersei has to settle for the death of Sansa's wolf, Lady, and she ends up without the pelt. What she does end up with, eventually, is a passive and defenseless Stark hostage, Sansa. Is Sansa symbolically a direwolf pelt after Lady's death? It's not Lyanna, but it gives Cersei some sense of power to control this girl. Interestingly, Tywin and Cersei essentially turn Sansa into a bedwarmer for Tyrion by arranging a marriage, but Tyrion refuses to consummate the marriage by force (although he finds Sansa attractive). It's as if he is rejecting this notion of symbolically "warging" into the Stark she-wolf. Sansa won't be "warged" into, either: she won't bow down for Tyrion to put the Lannister cloak on her shoulders, and it is the bloody cloak from the Hound that she saves in her trunk. She prefers the skin of The Hound (the closest substitute at hand for a direwolf) and rejects the idea of "skinchanging" into the Lannister lion.

Back to Lady and her pelt: If either Nymeria or Lady could represent the "she-wolf" Lyanna, what does it mean that Ned Stark takes the responsibility for killing Lady with his sword, Ice? Holy Tower of Joy, Batman! Does this foreshadow (echo?) something we don't know about the way Lyanna died, and Ned's role in that death? As with Lyanna, Ned takes care to return Lady's bones to rest at Winterfell (where her three brother wolves mourn her). That GRRM is a deep guy, and a clever guy with plot twists. I will be fascinated to see whether the death of Lady is connected to the death of Lyanna on some symbolic level.

Your points about Catelyn being more likely to act directly than Cersei, who relies on manipulating others, also got me thinking. Catelyn loves Robb and believes he will live to be King of the North but, again, I wouldn't put it past GRRM to be using some unconscious instinct deep within Catelyn's heart to foreshadow Robb's early death and Bran's inheritance of the mantle (Aha! another garment metaphor!) of King of the North. Catelyn doesn't want Robb's "pelt" for herself, but wants it to protect and confer status on Bran.

In response to your point about Cersei choosing a series of failed Hands and alienating potentially good Hands of the King, I started to think about what a good job Tyrion did as Hand. Bringing it back to the direwolf ideas on which we are focused here, I wondered whether the (to us) mysterious animosity that Ghost shows toward Tyrion might be an expression of the wolf's desire to bite Tyrion in order to gain some of that "competent Hand" magic to transfer to Jon? I also wonder whether the attempt by Ser Mandon Moore to kill Tyrion at the Battle of the Blackwater, resulting in the loss of Tyrion's nose, ties back into the "Kings taking fingers" motif we are working out: Tyrion IS a Hand at this point. He suspects Cersei of sending Ser Mandon Moore to kill him. Instead of losing a finger, he loses his nose. But since he is a Hand, this maiming of his face could be the equivalent of one of the unjust cutting of fingers we have been considering. (The Wiki reminds me that there is a Hound angle at this point, too, as The Hound refuses Tyrion's order to defend the King's Gate, saying, "Bugger the King's Hand.") This loss of his nose does mark a turning point for Tyrion, as it coincides with Tywin's arrival in King's Landing and the end of Tyrion's service as Hand of the King. It also magnifies his dislike and distrust of Cersei, underscoring your point that Cersei inadvertently creates enemies by abusing violence as a form of power.

[Franziska]

Hey everyone

 

Well I was long away from the forums and this thread, but I finally found the time to catch up with you in this reread. Here a few thoughts about past chapters, some might already be mentioned but nevertheless I bring them up again.  :P 

 

 

 

Bran V (riding in the wolfswood, attack of the wildings)

 

 

A few villages eyed the direwolves anxiously as the riders went past, and one man dropped the wood he was carrying as he shrank away in fear, but most of the town-folk had grown used to the sight.

 

I wonder what the town-folk talked about the Starks. I guess some of the smallfolk might even have suspected them to be Wargs.

 

 

 

Bran looked around for the direwolves. Both had vanished into the wood. “Did you hear Summer howling last night?”

“”Grey Wind was restless too,” Robb said.

...

“Bran, I need to tell you something. There was a bird last night. From King’s Landing. Maester Luwin woke me.”

 

I’m not sure, what I should think about Summer’s and Grey Wind’s behavior during the mentioned night. Were they restless because Robb received the letter and knows about his father’s injury? But if it was only a reaction to Robb’s emotions, it’s strange that Summer was restless too. On the other hand, they just could have felt Eddard’s state by themselves. But I’m also intrigued about that, because neither Summer nor Grey Wind is directly connected with him.

 

 

 

The direwolves stopped, turned their heads. Grey Wind loped back to Robb. Summer stayed where he was, his eyes on Bran and the man beside him. He growled. His muzzle was wet and red, but his eyes burned.

 

An interesting wording about Summers eyes. Previously they were called golden like the sun and now they are burning. 

 

 

Jon VI (Jon says his vows before the weirwoods)

 

 

• When he said the old gods sent the wolves to the Starks in Bran I, I think Jon was just using any argument he could think of.  This chapter is the first time where I think Jon really believes the old gods sent the wolves. 

 

No, I don’t think it is that way. I actually think, Jon meant it for real, when he told Eddard, that his kids are meant to have the direwolves. He just did not include himself, because there were just five pups when he spoke the words. In a way he forgot his own words but in the weirwood grove he realized, that Ghost was as much sent from the gods as the other wolves.

 

 

Jon VII

 

 

Ghost ran with them for a time and then vanished among the trees. Without the direwolf, Jon felt almost naked. He found himself glancing at every shadow with unease. 

 

Others mentioned it already yet I never realized before, that at this moment Jon felt insecure without Ghost. I think his warging abilities, already start to show on a low level.

 

 

 

Jon was startled to see how tall he’d grown. “Ghost, what is it?” he called softly. The direwolf turned his head and looked down at him, baring his fangs in a silent snarl.

 

Ghost kept growing since Tyrion III, by now he must be taller than a common wolf (and is still not fully grown).

 

 

 

Ghost leapt. Man and wolf went down together with neither scream nor snarl, rolling, smashing into a chair, knocking over a table laden with papers.

 

I think this scene IS an evidence that the direwolves showed up, because the have to fulfill a certain task. Jon has not even to command anything, but Ghost immediately starts to attack the wight. How many animals would do the same? And no, I don’t think Bloodraven interacts. In fact I don’t believe that any of the direwolves is ever driven by BR. They are not his companions and he seams to prefer birds.

 

 

 

Now this is interesting. Has Jon been in active correspondence with Ned or Robb perhaps? Or does he know of Lady and Nymeria through wolf dreams? If it is the latter, then he has pretty much understood and accepted that these dreams show him the truth, but the reader hasn’t really been told about it.

 

I wonder what everyone thinks…

 

Well, I think, he indeed had correspondence with Robb. We don’t know exactly how much time passed since Bran woke up. They grew up together as brothers and they were together all the time, why should Robb not inform Jon about other things via “ravenmail”?

 

 

Bran VI

 

 

…when at last they’d found him down in the crypts, Rickon had slashed at them with a rusted iron sword he’d snatched from a dead king’s hand, and Shaggydog had come slavering out of the darkness like a green-eyed demon. The wolf was near as wild as Rickon.

 

Rickon is strong for a four-year-old boy. Somehow it reminds me of Jon, but Rickon seems to be angry at everyone and again he reminds me of Neds older brother Branden. I wonder, where his strength and wildness will lead in the end.

 

 

 

Bran felt all cold inside. “She lost her wolf,” he said, weakly, remembering the day when four of his father’s guardsmen had returned from the south with Lady’s bones. Summer and Grey Wind and Shaggydog had begun to howl before they crossed the drawbridge, in voices drawn and desolate. Beneath the shadow of the First Keep was an ancient lichyard, its headstones spotted with pale lichen, where the old Kings of Winter had laid their faithful servants. It was there they buried Lady, while her brothers stalked between the graves like restless shadows.

 

I think this is somehow strange. With Lady, the wolves start to howl, when her dead body reaches Winterfell, but when Ned dies, they start howling when the raven (with the letter) flies into the maesters room. In ADWD we learn that Ghost can feel his brothers and sisters, even if they are far away (even more, Ghost feels emptiness for his dead brother and sister). Now does this mean, that Grey Wind, Summer and Shaggydog are not able to do the same or is it something they develop when they grow up? Does anybody remember, if Bran also feels the other direwolves via his wolfdreams?

 

I like the fact, that Lady was buried among the faithful servants. I hope, that someday her brothers and her sister will join her there.

 

 

 

• Something that stood out to me this reread was Osha’s faith in the Starks.  She doesn’t believe Mance can handle the Others, but she seems confident the Starks could do something about it.  Connecting it back to the previous Bran chapter, her deference to the direwolves may be a factor in this    

 

 

 

Well I guess, most of the free folk have mixed feelings about the Stark-family. One hand the Starks often stopped their invasions and killed many of them, but that also means they are strong enough to fight more dangerous threats. They don’t love the Starks enough to follow them but the hatred isn’t big enough to kill them all.

 

 

 

[Julia H.]

Excellent discussion, everyone, and very interesting ideas.  :cheers: I especially like the observations about fingers and hands and the possibility that a direwolf's bite is magical.  

 

In fairness to Lady, a small observation on this:

 

 
We know that Nymeria was protecting the child Mycah at Arya's direction when she bit Joffrey. I don't know if the point is that direwolves are at risk if they DO protect chidren as well as when they fail to protect children? Or maybe part of GRRM's larger point about there being both justice and injustice in the world. (Of course, Nymeria does survive and Lady, the innocent bystander, does not. So maybe the point is that protecting children is the right thing to do and passively standing by puts you at risk?)
 

 

Lady did not stand by while Mycah was attacked, because she wasn’t even there. Sansa had chained her up somewhere – Joffrey had told her not to bring her along on their outing. Joffrey made Sansa treat her direwolf like a dog.

 

Back to the present chapter, I’ve been wondering something about Rickon:

 

I know he has every reason to be angry and scared as his family members leave him and Winterfell one by one, but perhaps there is even more to it than meets the eye. Rickon is the Stark who started to build his warging bond with a direwolf at the youngest age. He is still too young to be really articulate, to express complicated ideas, therefore we know very little of what is going on in his mind as his relationship with Shaggydogs develops or of what magical abilities he is developing exactly.

 

“He says no one ever comes back.”

 

That thought seems to have been deduced from observation, but still… I wonder if Rickon could have green dreams, dreams that show him the future in some form, dreams that he cannot explain. In this chapter, Bran and Robb are warned by Osha that Robb will be riding the wrong way if he takes his army south. Bran believes her but they can convince neither Robb, nor Maester Luwin. Osha, after all, is only a captive wildling, and Bran is a child and a cripple.

 

Rickon goes berserk at the idea that Robb will be leaving. He also hides in the crypts with the Starks of old, including the ones who had gone south and got home dead. His direwolf apparently supports his opinion, but Shaggydog is even less articulate than Rickon. Perhaps Rickon has green dreams which he can neither perfectly understand nor explain to others but which frighten him and make it clear to him that all these southward journeys will not end well. This would be the classic trope of the seer whose word is not heeded.

 

Osha, Bran and Rickon – they see what mistakes those in a position of power are making and are trying to make them see, too, but they are not taken seriously by the wise and strong adult men who can make or influence the decisions. Of course, the same men are also more bound by the conventional approach to things – from their viewpoint, it is next to impossible not to respond to the provocation in the south. It will take all the learning and experience that Jon will go through for a man with real authority to be able to redefine the traditional concept of the enemy. 

 

[Seams]

Lady did not stand by while Mycah was attacked, because she wasnt even there. Sansa had chained her up somewhere Joffrey had told her not to bring her along on their outing. Joffrey made Sansa treat her direwolf like a dog.
 
Back to the present chapter, Ive been wondering something about Rickon:
 
I know he has every reason to be angry and scared as his family members leave him and Winterfell one by one, but perhaps there is even more to it than meets the eye. Rickon is the Stark who started to build his warging bond with a direwolf at the youngest age. He is still too young to be really articulate, to express complicated ideas, therefore we know very little of what is going on in his mind as his relationship with Shaggydogs develops or of what magical abilities he is developing exactly.
 
He says no one ever comes back.
 
That thought seems to have been deduced from observation, but still I wonder if Rickon could have green dreams, dreams that show him the future in some form, dreams that he cannot explain. In this chapter, Bran and Robb are warned by Osha that Robb will be riding the wrong way if he takes his army south. Bran believes her but they can convince neither Robb, nor Maester Luwin. Osha, after all, is only a captive wildling, and Bran is a child and a cripple.
 
Rickon goes berserk at the idea that Robb will be leaving. He also hides in the crypts with the Starks of old, including the ones who had gone south and got home dead. His direwolf apparently supports his opinion, but Shaggydog is even less articulate than Rickon. Perhaps Rickon has green dreams which he can neither perfectly understand nor explain to others but which frighten him and make it clear to him that all these southward journeys will not end well. This would be the classic trope of the seer whose word is not heeded.
 
Osha, Bran and Rickon they see what mistakes those in a position of power are making and are trying to make them see, too, but they are not taken seriously by the wise and strong adult men who can make or influence the decisions. Of course, the same men are also more bound by the conventional approach to things from their viewpoint, it is next to impossible not to respond to the provocation in the south. It will take all the learning and experience that Jon will go through for a man with real authority to be able to redefine the traditional concept of the enemy.

Yes, I should take care not to blame the victim: Lady had no chance to defend or attack in the interaction among Mycah, Joffrey, Arya and Nymeria. I was conflating the symbolism of Lady as an aspect of Sansa when I referred to passively standing by. Sansa tries not to take a side when Ned and Robert are trying to sort out who was at fault. Maybe that's not accurately described as passive behavior - a lie of omission, in this case, has as grave an outcome as a lie of commission. Just as Sansa chose to tie up her direwolf, she chose to withhold the truth about Joffrey provoking an attack. She is essentially choosing to side with the Lannisters already at this point, forsaking the honesty that is part of the Stark brand.

Rickon is such a mystery and this green dream theory seems like the best unified explanation for what little we know of his behaviors and the things he says.

It's a bit speculative on my part, but I've also wondered whether the model of the three Targaryen brothers - Aegon V, Aemon and Brynden Rivers/Bloodraven - will provide us with clues that apply to Bran and Rickon Stark and Jon Snow. The problem is, I'm not sure there's a one-to-one comparison among the three Targaryans and the three Starks. More a set of qualities and roles that are shared among both sets of brothers - perhaps another mosaic, like the Theon/ Ramsay/ Stiv the wildling comparison. The qualities include seeing things far away (through ravens and/or green dreams and/or the reading of books), a humble experience that masks noble origins, scholarly pursuits, possibly skinchanging/warging (ravens, dragon eggs, direwolves) and a sort of teamwork approach to ruling Westeros, including one brother in the underworld, one at the edge of the world and one among the people (we have yet to see which Stark brother might be among the people or on the iron throne). Another complication is that Rhaegar might be the third Targaryan, not Aegon V. Or maybe he replaced Aegon V as the trio evolved. This suggests an artist and a warrior aspect - or maybe a lover and father aspect? - for the mix.

I think Rickon and Bran's scenes in the Winterfell crypt, as well as Jon's dreams about the crypt, might offer us hints about how these brothers will connect with each other and with their future responsibilities. Brynden Rivers has (or had) possession of an important sword. Which swords do Bran and Rickon end up with when they leave the Stark tomb? Who is in conflict with them in the crypts? Why does Bran get angry when Rickon takes Little and Big Walder into the crypt? (Because it's a Stark place.)

Key moments for Rickon will be when Shaggydog bites Maester Luwin and when he attacks Little Walder, especially if we are right about a direwolf bite transmitting something of the bitten person to the direwolf's person. Maester Luwin is learned, including being one of the few maesters with the Valyrian Steel link in his chain, representing the study of magic. I realize I'm getting way ahead of our analysis, but I think the two Walder Frey wards at Winterfell represent The Stranger, among other things. Rickon fears them at first, but feels better about them after ShaggyDog's attack on one of them after he hits Rickon during a game of Lord of the Crossing. Summer, on the other hand, attacks and (almost?) bites Jojen. So maybe this is a signal of the different directions of Bran and Rickon: Greenseer for Bran, and creepy, menacing Stranger and student of magic for Rickon? Maybe these are parallel but different ways of seeing? Luwin and Osha don't see eye-to-eye on the existence of magic or the importance of dreams, but it is implied later that Osha ends Luwin's suffering by killing him after he is gravely wounded. This might represent a triumph of magic over maester-type book-learning, even if it was a gesture of kindness, invited by Luwin.

Understanding what we can about Osha will also be important - if Cersei takes over the role of mother for Sansa, Osha may take over this role for Rickon.

Well, I hope it's a legit approach to anticipate things coming up, to possibly enrich the re-read by thinking about things to watch for as well as the things in this chapter. The discussion on this thread keeps bringing up new and interesting possibilities - many thanks to the organizers and all contributors. I'm so glad you brought up Rickon, Julia H.. I hope he will be rejoining the narrative in the upcoming book, and I want to try to keep the details of his early story in mind when we meet again.

[Bastetcat]

You all have such wunderful ideas.

I also believe Lady's death was a punishment.

In a way the Starks was meant to have direwolfs. The direwolf were send by the gods, to protect them. But as anything else privilege's can be lost.

The motto: "The pack survives, but the lone wolf dies" doesn't only mean that you die is you stay alone, but that everyone among the pack has to keep the interest of the pack first(!), and the interest of the individuals secound.

By making the children possible to keep them, - (Jon Snow took the pack before himself) by let the Starks have the pups (when he wanted one as well) - he earned the right to be a direwolf keeper, earned the right to be a Stark. He become a Stark that moment in my oppinion. He was proved to be a true member of the wolfpack.

But Sansa didn'd earned anything. He was born into the right family, he got the direwolf for free. She was already in. But the moment she prefered the Lannisters before her pack aka her OWN family, she lost the right to be among the pack, among the Starks. From that moment Sansa is not a Stark before the gods eyes. She had the right, but lost it. Shameful, but this happened to her, and as people in her place does a lot - she blamed others for her fault - Arya. And Sansa didn't learn even from the death of her direwolf.

And as Lady died, Sansa stopped being a Stark. She can think anything in her chapters, she lost her origin, a central core of her identity.

[Harlaw's Book the Sequel]

Happy New Year, Everyone!  Again I apologize for the delay.  I wish everyone the best and want to thank you all for enriching this past year!

Catelyn X

Summary

Cat waits for Robb at the Whispering Wood.

Observations

• Grey Wind and Robb continue to be inseparable.
• Robb growing so big is mentioned again, but this time Cat wishes for Robb to grow even taller
• Cat is able to hear Grey Wind’s howls throughout the battle, even thinking there is more than one wolf.  

Analysis

“As she watched him, this tall young man with the new beard and the direwolf prowling at his heels, all she could see could see was the babe they had laid at her breast at Riverrun, so long ago.”

• Once again we see a direwolf adding maturity to a Stark.

“And Grey Wind threw back his head and howled.
The sound seemed to go right through Catelyn Stark, and she found herself shivering.  It was a terrible sound, a frightening sound, yet there was music in it too.  For a second she felt something like pity for the Lannisters below.  So this is what death sounds like, she thought.”

• Cat’s thoughts are similar to Tyrion’s thoughts on the idea of facing a direwolf in battle.
• This passage reminds me of what people thought when introduced to the direwolves –both awe and horror.
• Cat’s reaction to Grey Wind’s howl is markedly different to her reaction to the howling she heard back while Bran was in a coma.  While it’s still frightening, the fact she can recognize the music shows she can also hear the beauty of it.  Even though she still associates the howl with death–instead of being a life giving force like it was for Bran–she recognizes it’s death for the Lannisters instead of her party.  

“Robb came back to her on a different horse… The wolf’s head on his shield was hacked half to pieces.”

• Personally I don’t subscribe to the theories Robb was able to warg anyone (person or animal) before he died, but that he came back on a different horse may be fodder for them.
• The slashed wolf’s head on the shield…  Even if it’s not intended to be foreshadowing, on reread it’s so easy to see it as an omen of the tragedies waiting to befall the Starks.  

[Bastetcat]

If the wolves and their masters are two parts of the while then then talking about the wolves their masters are really talking about themselves.

 

Jon mentioning to Tyrion, that they were all afraid of Ghost and Tyrion responds wise boys. What the author is telling us is the boys were really afraid of Jon but Ghost was the out manifestation of said fear.

 

Interesting point was made about how in the north direwolves and bears are always first mentioned as something to be afraid of and fearful of. Yet I would draw attention to Bran and his arrival to the cave with BR. There is a niche with a direwolve and bear skull along with the skulls of CotF. What's interesting to me is that it appears these two animals appear to be natural allies and also known foes to man.

 

 

Tyrions thoughts about having to look up at Ghost when they last meets reminds me of first how Jon describes Tyrions shadow, as tall as a king. But if wolf and master are one could this mean that soon Jon too would overshadow him? Also the duality of personalities between Jon and ghost them being one whole makes me wonder how their relationship would be affected by a dragon bond. The beast makes the man more beast like while the man tames the beast. Yet Ghost and Jon balance each other. Also with GW andRobb, their wolves can do things and protect them in ways that because of their society they can't. Example GW and biting off Gjons fingers. Robb could have bared his steel giving Gjon reason to do the same, or he could have backed down which would have made him look weak. GWs actions allows his master to save face. The fingers get blame on GW and GJon is allowed to back down. While Robb is allowed to look fearless and unaffected by Gjons actions.So if Jon does ride or bond with a dragon how does that affect their bond. I already get the feeling if JS is revived or spends some time in side of Ghost that unless his will/spirit is Valyrian Steel strong he's coming out of this exchange harder for the wear. No more mister nice Jon Snow. His rep as far as Braavos is of the black bastard of the wall predeath. How much wilder and fierce is he to become.

 

 

As some one pointd out that the green and black motif of SDs coloring could hint at usurping, I'd like to draw everyone's attention to Jon and when get receives Longclaw. He thinks about how by staying on the wall not marching he's betraying his family. When he finallybmakes the choice to stay he mentally says a prayer may the gods forgive him for betraying Ned, Robb, bran and Arya. Never mentions Rickon or Sans a. Which in light of a certain will, the ides of Marsh, the tentious grip on power he has on the wall. He very well may leave the Watch and take up the mantle of lord/king of Winterfell. Politics have been nipping at JSs heels since he arrived at the wall. When Stannis showed up that changed the status quo and shifted the power. This is a side note but as many know GRRM has drawn from many different historical points to base his characters. I've long thought that one of Jons inspirations was Borgia's middle son the cardinal Valencia. He was made a cardinal around 17 and stepped down at the age of 20. Whats so remarkable was that he was the first cardinal to actively seek to be removed from the college of cardinals.Similar to how on the wall no one has ever gotten out of their vows except for death or beheading( for desertion)

 

 

What I would also like to point out about Tyrion Turing up at WF and the wolves reaction to Tyrion is they act as if they lack an alpha. Go back to the scene where Jon and Robb found the wolves.its Jon's words that win the day, followed by Robb cosigning for his brother agreeing with Jon, followed by Bran feeling gratitude towards Jon for saving them. But earleir in the chapter we are given a sense of how things play in the pecking order of the children. While Robb might be heir, its to Jon the younger children turn. Robb when talking to Cat about the situation at Winterfell mentions how Rick on follows him around all day and he can't figure out how to comfort him. In contrast after talking to Tyrion about the situation with Bra and asking for his help again showing he's their support, he tells Tyrion to tell Rick on he can have all of his things, he'll like that. So even from the Wall he knows how to help his younger sibling with the exception of Sansa. So while Robb has the offical title of Heir and alpha the true alpha of the pack is Jon Snow. His is the domanite personality while seemlykng playing in the background. Jon spoke like a true Alpha and then the second step up to follow out the order. When Tyrion make his appearances the wolves reaction show they are missing their alpha and whom was really the second, Summer.

I like rereading this topic, I always find new thought to think over. 
I had an idea from what you said, I quote (for I can't always make sentences bold for some reason):
"Also the duality of personalities between Jon and ghost them being one whole makes me wonder how their relationship would be affected by a dragon bond. The beast makes the man more beast like while the man tames the beast. Yet Ghost and Jon balance each other."

I noticed this too. And I wonder if this can be the reason Targaryens have mental instability. Maybe they need an animal (dragon preferably, and I think they are bonded wiht blood magic together) to be stabil, strong, and able to rule a whole kingdom without becoming weak. Maybe not everyone of them looses his or her mind, but they can be instabilised more easily than others, if they are imbalanced. I even had a notion, that maybe the price for the dragonlords to bond with a dragon was to loose theit inner balance. I don't know if this makes sence. Also sorry, if it was mentioned before.
So Jon is balanced with Ghost, more so than the others. Maybe Ghost IS magical, for Jon, because Jon (RLJ teory) can/have to bond with something magical.

[Raisin' Bran]

I like rereading this topic, I always find new thought to think over. I had an idea from what you said, I quote (for I can't always make sentences bold for some reason):
"Also the duality of personalities between Jon and ghost them being one whole makes me wonder how their relationship would be affected by a dragon bond. The beast makes the man more beast like while the man tames the beast. Yet Ghost and Jon balance each other."
I noticed this too. And I wonder if this can be the reason Targaryens have mental instability. Maybe they need an animal (dragon preferably, and I think they are bonded wiht blood magic together) to be stabil, strong, and able to rule a whole kingdom without becoming weak. Maybe not everyone of them looses his or her mind, but they can be instabilised more easily than others, if they are imbalanced. I even had a notion, that maybe the price for the dragonlords to bond with a dragon was to loose theit inner balance. I don't know if this makes sence. Also sorry, if it was mentioned before.
So Jon is balanced with Ghost, more so than the others. Maybe Ghost IS magical, for Jon, because Jon (RLJ teory) can/have to bond with something magical.

Interesting thought, though it seems to me that there have been many times since the "extinction" of the dragons where there has been a good, strong, Targ king.  Additionally, there have been Targ kings (Maegor) that have been terrible despite having dragons to "balance" them. 

Additionally, if Ghost is magical, why would Summer not be, as he is bonded to the Stark displaying the most astonishing skinchanging abilities (Bran). And if Summer is indeed magical, why would the other littermates (Shaggydog, Nymeria, Lady, Grey Wind) not be magical too?

[Raisin' Bran]

Happy New Year, Everyone!  Again I apologize for the delay.  I wish everyone the best and want to thank you all for enriching this past year!

Catelyn X

“Robb came back to her on a different horse… The wolf’s head on his shield was hacked half to pieces.”

• Personally I don’t subscribe to the theories Robb was able to warg anyone (person or animal) before he died, but that he came back on a different horse may be fodder for them.
• The slashed wolf’s head on the shield…  Even if it’s not intended to be foreshadowing, on reread it’s so easy to see it as an omen of the tragedies waiting to befall the Starks.  

I believe Robb returning on a different horse foreshadows his change in strategy upon learning of his father's demise. Betting on the wrong horse, if you understand the metaphor.

In regard to Robb warging, I do not think he developed any significant abilities.  He never had time to accomplish them as he had other, very distracting responsibilities. First, he was "The Stark" in Winterfell, then commander of Northern forces, and finally was forced to isolate himself from Grey Wind after marrying Jeyne and acquiring an entourage of Westerlings and Spicers.

[The Knight of Night]

Interesting thought, though it seems to me that there have been many times since the "extinction" of the dragons where there has been a good, strong, Targ king.  Additionally, there have been Targ kings (Maegor) that have been terrible despite having dragons to "balance" them. 

Additionally, if Ghost is magical, why would Summer not be, as he is bonded to the Stark displaying the most astonishing skinchanging abilities (Bran). And if Summer is indeed magical, why would the other littermates (Shaggydog, Nymeria, Lady, Grey Wind) not be magical too?

I figured it was all a choice of the Old Gods, like the Children of the Forest, some were chosen and marked by red eyes (maybe green or gold also, I don't have the quote from BR to Bran) and had short life spans. All the wolves are special, like the "children", but a few are extra special.

[Harlaw's Book the Sequel]

 

Bastetcat, thanks for revisiting those points.  It has once again given me a lot to think about.    

Raisin' Bran and The Knight of Night, welcome to the thread! (Apologies for the formating, I'm still not used to the new version of the site --not that I ever really had a handle on the old one).

I believe Robb returning on a different horse foreshadows his change in strategy upon learning of his father's demise. Betting on the wrong horse, if you understand the metaphor.

I hadn't considered that.  You also reminded me of another saying, "Don't change horses in midstream," which I suppose is more advice that could've applied to Robb.  

In regard to Robb warging, I do not think he developed any significant abilities.  He never had time to accomplish them as he had other, very distracting responsibilities. First, he was "The Stark" in Winterfell, then commander of Northern forces, and finally was forced to isolate himself from Grey Wind after marrying Jeyne and acquiring an entourage of Westerlings and Spicers.

I agree that Robb never developed his abilities to the extent Arya, Bran, and Jon do in ADWD.  However, I think during AGOT his development is comparable to Jon's.  I think the aftermath of storming the Crag resulted in a big disruption to any further development.  

I figured it was all a choice of the Old Gods, like the Children of the Forest, some were chosen and marked by red eyes (maybe green or gold also, I don't have the quote from BR to Bran) and had short life spans. All the wolves are special, like the "children", but a few are extra special.

I think each of the Starks have distinct destinies, and the direwolves' coloration reflects that.  Even though 4 out of 6 had the gray fur and yellow eye combo, each Stark sees their wolf differently.  

 

[Raisin' Bran]

I figured it was all a choice of the Old Gods, like the Children of the Forest, some were chosen and marked by red eyes (maybe green or gold also, I don't have the quote from BR to Bran) and had short life spans. All the wolves are special, like the "children", but a few are extra special.

I had forgotten about the red eyes marking certain children of the forest. It was over three years ago that I read ADWD and I did not pay close attention to the description of the Children

[RainGhost]

On 01/01/2016 at 2:48 AM, Harlaw's Book the Sequel said:

“Robb came back to her on a different horse… The wolf’s head on his shield was hacked half to pieces.”

• Personally I don’t subscribe to the theories Robb was able to warg anyone (person or animal) before he died, but that he came back on a different horse may be fodder for them.
• The slashed wolf’s head on the shield…  Even if it’s not intended to be foreshadowing, on reread it’s so easy to see it as an omen of the tragedies waiting to befall the Starks.  

I think that Robb coming back on a different horse is merely to show that he was actually in real danger (presumably his own horse was killed). I don't think we need to read anything more into it than that. He probably picked up the horse from a dead man or maybe one of his guards handed over his own. No need for any skinchanging to go on.

The slashed shield essentially does the same thing but it also shows how the direwolves can be both a shield and a target. The purpose of a shield is to protect the bearer and it obviously did its job but by painting a direwolf on it Robb clearly marked himself as a Stark, making him the primary target. This would actually have cost him his life then and there if Daryn Hornwood and Eddard and Torrhen Karstark hadn't got in the way. Shields can't protect you from everything, just as the direwolves can't. Later, Robb is the only Stark kid who dies because he's the only one who doesn't hide. Wolfless, Sansa and Arya can hide and therefore survive. With wolves, both girls would be easily identifiable as Starks and therefore in more danger.

[Julia H.]

I just want everybody to know that I haven't abandoned the thread. I will be back with comments and the new chapter later this weekend.

[Julia H.]

During the transition period I was saving the posts that were in danger of being lost (starting with July) so here I will repost (in spoiler boxes) the posts I saved between 13th September and 26th November to make the thread complete:

Posts #209 to #213

Seams (19 September):

 

Spoiler

 

#209 Seams

Posted 19 September 2015 - 09:43 AM

Harlaw's Book the Sequel, on 24 Aug 2015 - 01:57 AM, said:

 

·          The highlight of Robb’s dealings is when Greatjon Umber draws steel and Grey Wind bites of two of his fingers.

·          Robb does this deliberately.  

·         Even though this is a well-loved moment, does Robb go to far?  The gambit works, but was it the right way to handle the situation?  Would Ned and Cat approve?  I’m inclined to think not.

·         All the Starks seem to be pushing the boundary on what the direwolves can get away with.   

·         In the Greatjon’s mind, this cements the idea that Robb is a Stark after all.  

On another thread, I just came across a very interesting quote regarding the cutting off of fingers. The discussion is about sapphires as symbols for secrets, but the jewels described in this passage have additional meaning, if the analysis is correct:

yolkboy, on 22 Sept 2013 - 10:23 PM, said:

A Dance With Dragons

ILLYRIO:
"Jewels danced when he moved his hands; onyx and opal, tiger’s eye and tourmaline, ruby, amethyst, sapphire, emerald, jet and jade, a black diamond, and a green pearl. I could live for years on his rings, Tyrion mused, though I’d need a cleaver to claim them."
This is Tyrion with Illryio. At this point, Illyrio's plans for fAegon and the Golden company are under way, and he keeps the secret from Tyrion. Notice the rings next to the sapphire, GREEN BLACK GREEN BLACK GREEN (dance of the dragons).

Maybe this provides additional insight for understanding the "kings taking fingers" symbolism: Is Tyrion a future king? Illyrio's jewels may represent the various houses of Westeros that he has wrapped around his little finger (so to speak). On one level, Tyrion covets the rings, imagining he could live for years if he possessed them, but acknowledging that he would have to cut off the man's fat fingers in order to get them. And if Illyrio possesses the rich fingers that are the power behind the Westeros throne, what does this tell us about the fingers that Robb and Stannis took? Great John's fingers probably symbolize the North - he is a man of the north, and that is the territory that Robb "rules" as King in the North. Stannis takes a smuggler's fingers, strongly associated with Flea Bottom and the sea (and with onions?). What might this tell us about the nature of the realm ruled by Stannis?

Sorry, I realize this is a tangent to the direwolf discussion, but it seemed too rich a passage to ignore the relevance. 

Edited by Seams, 19 September 2015 - 09:46 AM.

Nymeria's Pack (19 September):

 

Spoiler

 

#210 Nymeria's pack

Posted 19 September 2015 - 10:21 AM

This is  a wonderful thread. I've always been interested in the direwolves but couldn't have hoped to analyse it this well. There are so many interesting points made. I have little to add but I was really struck by the comments on Shaggydog's colouring.  I am actually rereading ACOK at the moment, and had just read the discussion around Shaggy's green eyes, and this jumped off the page at me, the description of Renly's pavilion just before his death: 

The candles within Renly's pavilion made the shimmering silken walls seem to glow, transforming the great tent into a magical castle alive with emerald light.  .. The green light shone strangely...

The glowing green reminded me at once of Shaggydog's eyes and I wonder if the strange green light was more pronounced because of the approaching magic. I got to thinking further about the colour green: greendreams, greenseeing, Jojen's green eyes.  And the less pleasant associations with green:the green flames around Lightbringer as Stannis drew it from the fire, wildfire, Cersei's blazing green eyes.

I hope Shaggydog's green eyes are more indicative of a strong magical presence than destruction and evil. But Shaggydog and Rickon, unless Osha has managed to guide them successfully, are potentially the angriest and most destructive of the Stark kid/direwolf combos.

I do believe there is a very strong warging connection between these two, and I think that's why Rickon wasn't sure (according to Catelyn) at first about his new pup.  Whatever he felt could have been very confusing for a three year old.

 

 

bemused, on 03 Nov 2014 - 12:09 AM, said:

Guys, I really like this thread .. I'm still only about 2/3 of the way through the first page and won't tbe able to read more until much later tonight . In the meantime, a thought leaps out at me ( and excuse me ,if it's already been mentioned ). If I can, I'd like to take it back to Ghost  getting the better of the huge black bitch at the feast. Generally, in mythology,a black dog often is connected with death. In AsoIaF, note the skinny black dog Tyrion observes loitering around Joffrey's corpse.

 

Naturally (obsessed as I am) and considering the strength-lending aspect of the direwolf bond,which seems to work both ways.. Summer to Bran and later Jon to Ghost (when Ghost is injured ) ... I see this as a possible prediction of who gets the upper hand following the events of Jon's last ADWD chapter.

 

Ghost denies the black bitch her meal.

I really like this, and I hope it bodes well for Jon

 

Julia H. (19 September)

 

Spoiler

 

#211 Julia H.

Posted 19 September 2015 - 05:32 PM

Seams, on 19 Sept 2015 - 3:43 PM, said:

On another thread, I just came across a very interesting quote regarding the cutting off of fingers. The discussion is about sapphires as symbols for secrets, but the jewels described in this passage have additional meaning, if the analysis is correct:

Maybe this provides additional insight for understanding the "kings taking fingers" symbolism: Is Tyrion a future king? Illyrio's jewels may represent the various houses of Westeros that he has wrapped around his little finger (so to speak). On one level, Tyrion covets the rings, imagining he could live for years if he possessed them, but acknowledging that he would have to cut off the man's fat fingers in order to get them. And if Illyrio possesses the rich fingers that are the power behind the Westeros throne, what does this tell us about the fingers that Robb and Stannis took? Great John's fingers probably symbolize the North - he is a man of the north, and that is the territory that Robb "rules" as King in the North. Stannis takes a smuggler's fingers, strongly associated with Flea Bottom and the sea (and with onions?). What might this tell us about the nature of the realm ruled by Stannis?

Sorry, I realize this is a tangent to the direwolf discussion, but it seemed too rich a passage to ignore the relevance.

 

Wonderful observations! There is a lot of symbolism here.

 

Regarding the taking of fingers, perhaps it can also be said that this sort of punishment is the right of a true leader – which is exactly what Robb proves here with the help of Grey Wind. Davos also accepted Stannis as his just and true king when Stannis both punished and rewarded him. Robb punishes the Greatjon but also shows that he can be merciful and that he has a sense of humour - after all, what the Greatjon does could be punished much more severely. Grey Wind also makes it obvious that Robb is not ordinary even among the Starks. As for Cersei (cf. the handmaid) and Ramsay (mutilating people), what they do prove them to be only usurpers – there is no justice or mercy in their actions, nothing that would point to a true leader, nothing that the victim could accept, only cruelty. 

 

Seams, on 13 Sept 2015 - 5:36 PM, said:

It's a bit speculative on my part, but I've also wondered whether the model of the three Targaryen brothers - Aegon V, Aemon and Brynden Rivers/Bloodraven - will provide us with clues that apply to Bran and Rickon Stark and Jon Snow. The problem is, I'm not sure there's a one-to-one comparison among the three Targaryans and the three Starks. More a set of qualities and roles that are shared among both sets of brothers - perhaps another mosaic, like the Theon/ Ramsay/ Stiv the wildling comparison. The qualities include seeing things far away (through ravens and/or green dreams and/or the reading of books), a humble experience that masks noble origins, scholarly pursuits, possibly skinchanging/warging (ravens, dragon eggs, direwolves) and a sort of teamwork approach to ruling Westeros, including one brother in the underworld, one at the edge of the world and one among the people (we have yet to see which Stark brother might be among the people or on the iron throne). Another complication is that Rhaegar might be the third Targaryan, not Aegon V. Or maybe he replaced Aegon V as the trio evolved. This suggests an artist and a warrior aspect - or maybe a lover and father aspect? - for the mix.

I think Rickon and Bran's scenes in the Winterfell crypt, as well as Jon's dreams about the crypt, might offer us hints about how these brothers will connect with each other and with their future responsibilities. Brynden Rivers has (or had) possession of an important sword. Which swords do Bran and Rickon end up with when they leave the Stark tomb? Who is in conflict with them in the crypts? Why does Bran get angry when Rickon takes Little and Big Walder into the crypt? (Because it's a Stark place.)

Key moments for Rickon will be when Shaggydog bites Maester Luwin and when he attacks Little Walder, especially if we are right about a direwolf bite transmitting something of the bitten person to the direwolf's person. Maester Luwin is learned, including being one of the few maesters with the Valyrian Steel link in his chain, representing the study of magic. I realize I'm getting way ahead of our analysis, but I think the two Walder Frey wards at Winterfell represent The Stranger, among other things. Rickon fears them at first, but feels better about them after ShaggyDog's attack on one of them after he hits Rickon during a game of Lord of the Crossing. Summer, on the other hand, attacks and (almost?) bites Jojen. So maybe this is a signal of the different directions of Bran and Rickon: Greenseer for Bran, and creepy, menacing Stranger and student of magic for Rickon? Maybe these are parallel but different ways of seeing? Luwin and Osha don't see eye-to-eye on the existence of magic or the importance of dreams, but it is implied later that Osha ends Luwin's suffering by killing him after he is gravely wounded. This might represent a triumph of magic over maester-type book-learning, even if it was a gesture of kindness, invited by Luwin.

Understanding what we can about Osha will also be important - if Cersei takes over the role of mother for Sansa, Osha may take over this role for Rickon.

Well, I hope it's a legit approach to anticipate things coming up, to possibly enrich the re-read by thinking about things to watch for as well as the things in this chapter. The discussion on this thread keeps bringing up new and interesting possibilities - many thanks to the organizers and all contributors. I'm so glad you brought up Rickon, Julia H.. I hope he will be rejoining the narrative in the upcoming book, and I want to try to keep the details of his early story in mind when we meet again.

 

Very interesting points.

 

I don’t see a one-to-one comparison between the Targaryens you mention and the Stark brothers (though it may be entirely my fault). Jon can be compared to Aegon V in the sense that despite his birth he spends years among commoners in “disguise”, but he also parallels Aemon as a brother of the Night’s Watch. Bran is Bloodraven’s apprentice, but their lives before their weirwood experience are rather different. (By the way, Bloodraven was the son of Aegon IV and half-brother to Daeron II, who was the grandfather of Aegon V and Aemon, which makes Bloodraven Aegon and Aemon’s great uncle, not brother). I think there are parallels between the heroes of the main story and those of the prequels, but they are more episodic in nature than complete. (You may be interested in this thread, where Fire Eater draws some interesting parallels between characters in the main story and characters of The Hedge Knight.) GRRM plays with the story on multiple levels and certain motifs are repeated over the course of history with new characters (and not necessarily with the same outcome).

 

Yes, Osha definitely takes over the role of a mother in the case of Rickon, which is interesting when you come to think of it: Rickon’s southron heritage (Catelyn and the Tullys) is replaced by a very northern one (a mother figure who comes from beyond the Wall). Osha tried to warn Robb that he would be marching the wrong way, but it was in vain. Robb’s brothers, however, will all head for the North and learn what can be learned there – Jon will learn about the ways and the culture of the wildlings, Bran will learn what can be learned about the weirnet, and who knows what knowledge Rickon will acquire partly from Osha and partly from the Skagosi. What seems to be certain is that all this is ancient knowledge - First Men knowledge or perhaps older – so it seems the Starks and the North will have to learn to remember.

 

 

Nymeria's pack, on 19 Sept 2015 - 4:21 PM, said:

This is  a wonderful thread. I've always been interested in the direwolves but couldn't have hoped to analyse it this well. There are so many interesting points made. I have little to add but I was really struck by the comments on Shaggydog's colouring.  I am actually rereading ACOK at the moment, and had just read the discussion around Shaggy's green eyes, and this jumped off the page at me, the description of Renly's pavilion just before his death: 

The candles within Renly's pavilion made the shimmering silken walls seem to glow, transforming the great tent into a magical castle alive with emerald light.  .. The green light shone strangely...

The glowing green reminded me at once of Shaggydog's eyes and I wonder if the strange green light was more pronounced because of the approaching magic. I got to thinking further about the colour green: greendreams, greenseeing, Jojen's green eyes.  And the less pleasant associations with green:the green flames around Lightbringer as Stannis drew it from the fire, wildfire, Cersei's blazing green eyes.

I hope Shaggydog's green eyes are more indicative of a strong magical presence than destruction and evil. But Shaggydog and Rickon, unless Osha has managed to guide them successfully, are potentially the angriest and most destructive of the Stark kid/direwolf combos.

I do believe there is a very strong warging connection between these two, and I think that's why Rickon wasn't sure (according to Catelyn) at first about his new pup.  Whatever he felt could have been very confusing for a three year old.

 

 

I really like this, and I hope it bodes well for Jon

 

 

Welcome, Nymeria’s pack! I’m glad you have joined us on this thread.

 

Shaggydog’s green eyes: As someone, I think, upthread observed, Shaggydog’s colours are just the opposite of Ghost’s: white and red versus black and green. I don’t know if it means potential antagonism or that Jon and Rickon somehow complement each other (after all, black is also Jon’s colour). Green is associated with various things in ASOIAF – usurping, Baratheons and Lannisters, summer and youth, as well as a type of magic (greenseers and green dreams). Shaggydog’s eyes are likely to belong to this last category – perhaps Rickon has wolf dreams that are also green dreams. 

 

Julia H. (19 September)

 

Spoiler

 

#212 Julia H.

Posted 19 September 2015 - 05:40 PM

Franziska, on 09 Sept 2015 - 06:06 AM, said:

 

Well, I think, he indeed had correspondence with Robb. We don’t know exactly how much time passed since Bran woke up. They grew up together as brothers and they were together all the time, why should Robb not inform Jon about other things via “ravenmail”?

 

 

 

I think you are right about this. It makes perfect sense, and often the simplest explanation is the best one.

Edited by Julia H., 19 September 2015 - 05:41 PM.

 

Eiko Dragonhorn (19 September)

#213 Eiko Dragonhorn

 

Spoiler

 

Posted 19 September 2015 - 07:52 PM

Julia H., on 08 Jul 2015 - 1:13 PM, said:

 

The girls do not even have that much, he thought. Their wolves might have kept them safe, but Lady is dead and Nymeria’s lost, they’re alone.

 

Now this is interesting. Has Jon been in active correspondence with Ned or Robb perhaps? Or does he know of Lady and Nymeria through wolf dreams? If it is the latter, then he has pretty much understood and accepted that these dreams show him the truth, but the reader hasn’t really been told about it.

 

He almost certainly learned this in the same letter that said Bran woke up.

 

Quote

Jon's finger traced the outline of the direwolf in the white wax of the broken seal. He recognized Robb's hand, but the letters seemed to blur and run as he tried to read them. He realized he was crying. And then, through the tears, he found the sense in the words, and raised his head. "He woke up," he said. "The gods gave him back."

 

"Crippled," Mormont said. "I'm sorry, boy. Read the rest of the letter."

 

He looked at the words, but they didn't matter. Nothing mattered. Bran was going to live.

 

 That letter had plenty of other info besides Bran's survival, Jon just didn't care at the time.

 

To be continued...

[Julia H.]

Posts #214 to #220:

Bastetcat (04 October):

 

Spoiler

 

#214 Bastetcat

 

 

 

Posted 04 October 2015 - 12:07 PM

 

RainGhost, on 07 Mar 2015 - 11:13 PM, said:

 

"…the wolves came on.  Their eyes found Lannister, or perhaps they caught his scent.  Summer began to growl first.  Grey Wind picked it up.  They padded toward the little man… ‘The wolves do not like your smell, Lannister,’ Theon Greyjoy commented.  ‘Perhaps it’s time I took my leave,' Tyrion said.  He took a step backward…and Shaggydog came out of the shadows behind him, snarling.  Lannister recoiled, and Summer lunged at him from the other side.  He reeled away, unsteady on his feet, and Grey Wind snapped at his arm, teeth ripping at his sleeve and tearing loose a scrap of cloth.”

 

 

 

Summer attacking first parallels the fact that Bran is the first threat to the Lannisters when he witnesses the twincest. Grey Wind (Robb) is the one who actually attacks and Shaggydog (Rickon) is the threat from behind that they don’t see.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Men, this is happening. How could I miss that? Bran is the catalyst, the first to "go against" the Lannisters by witnessing the incest. Then Robb goes to war. And it is Rickon who is unknown treat to the Lannister throne by opposing the Boltons. You are incredible, thank you for pointing that out!

 

 

 

 

Harlaw's Book the Sequel (04 October)

 

Spoiler

 

#215 Harlaw's Book the Sequel

 

 

 

Posted 04 October 2015 - 06:40 PM

 

Awesome discussion, everyone!  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Seams, on 08 Sept 2015 - 6:30 PM, said:

 

In response to your point about Cersei choosing a series of failed Hands and alienating potentially good Hands of the King, I started to think about what a good job Tyrion did as Hand. Bringing it back to the direwolf ideas on which we are focused here, I wondered whether the (to us) mysterious animosity that Ghost shows toward Tyrion might be an expression of the wolf's desire to bite Tyrion in order to gain some of that "competent Hand" magic to transfer to Jon? I also wonder whether the attempt by Ser Mandon Moore to kill Tyrion at the Battle of the Blackwater, resulting in the loss of Tyrion's nose, ties back into the "Kings taking fingers" motif we are working out: Tyrion IS a Hand at this point. He suspects Cersei of sending Ser Mandon Moore to kill him. Instead of losing a finger, he loses his nose. But since he is a Hand, this maiming of his face could be the equivalent of one of the unjust cutting of fingers we have been considering. (The Wiki reminds me that there is a Hound angle at this point, too, as The Hound refuses Tyrion's order to defend the King's Gate, saying, "Bugger the King's Hand.") This loss of his nose does mark a turning point for Tyrion, as it coincides with Tywin's arrival in King's Landing and the end of Tyrion's service as Hand of the King. It also magnifies his dislike and distrust of Cersei, underscoring your point that Cersei inadvertently creates enemies by abusing violence as a form of power.

 

 

 

I think Jon’s takeaway from Tyrion wasn’t “Hand” skills but the lesson of making his bastard status his armor.  Not only did Jon take it to heart, I think the student surpassed the master.  Also note right after Tyrion gives him the advice Jon thinks for a moment Tyrion stood as tall as king.  As it stands I think their relationship had more of an impact on Jon than it did on Tyrion.  In ASOS Jon still considers Tyrion a friend, and he seems to have conflicting feelings about Tyrion in ADWD.  The last time Tyrion thought about Jon it was an indirect thought about how even Ned Stark was capable fathering a bastard. 

 

 

 

 

 

Franziska, on 09 Sept 2015 - 06:06 AM, said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

An interesting wording about Summers eyes. Previously they were called golden like the sun and now they are burning. 

 

 

 

/snip/

 

 

 

I think this is somehow strange. With Lady, the wolves start to howl, when her dead body reaches Winterfell, but when Ned dies, they start howling when the raven (with the letter) flies into the maesters room. In ADWD we learn that Ghost can feel his brothers and sisters, even if they are far away (even more, Ghost feels emptiness for his dead brother and sister). Now does this mean, that Grey Wind, Summer and Shaggydog are not able to do the same or is it something they develop when they grow up? Does anybody remember, if Bran also feels the other direwolves via his wolfdreams?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Franziska, glad to see you’re back!  

 

 

 

Summer’s eyes have been compared to sun, but then in current chapter they’re molten.  When I think of molten I tend to associate the adjective with volcanic rock or gold.  (I have to admit to thinking about Viserys’ golden crown, but I haven’t been able to come up with any good connections to Bran or Summer).  “Burning” could fit with either comparison.  Though I think there is some sort of progression of the comparisons going from a celestial body to earthly materials.  

 

 

 

The other interesting thing is that Shaggydog, Summer, and Ghost’s eyes have been associated with fire.

 

 

 

Summer’s eyes also made me think of both Queen Nymeria and Nymeria the direwolf.  Queen Nymeria’s symbol was the sun, and one of things she is famous for is burning her ships.  Nymeria the direwolf’s eyes have been compared to golden coins, and golden coins are made from molten gold.  

 

 

 

IIRC Bran does feel the other direwolves via wolf dreams, but I think that doesn’t happen until ACOK.  I think sensing the other direwolves is another power wargs have, but it takes time to develop.  Jon can sense the other direwolves in ADWD (and identify other wargs), but Arya still seems limited to only sensing Nymeria.

 

 

 

 

 

Julia H., on 12 Sept 2015 - 11:15 AM, said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Back to the present chapter, I’ve been wondering something about Rickon:

 

 

 

I know he has every reason to be angry and scared as his family members leave him and Winterfell one by one, but perhaps there is even more to it than meets the eye. Rickon is the Stark who started to build his warging bond with a direwolf at the youngest age. He is still too young to be really articulate, to express complicated ideas, therefore we know very little of what is going on in his mind as his relationship with Shaggydogs develops or of what magical abilities he is developing exactly.

 

 

 

“He says no one ever comes back.”

 

 

 

That thought seems to have been deduced from observation, but still… I wonder if Rickon could have green dreams, dreams that show him the future in some form, dreams that he cannot explain. In this chapter, Bran and Robb are warned by Osha that Robb will be riding the wrong way if he takes his army south. Bran believes her but they can convince neither Robb, nor Maester Luwin. Osha, after all, is only a captive wildling, and Bran is a child and a cripple.

 

 

 

Rickon goes berserk at the idea that Robb will be leaving. He also hides in the crypts with the Starks of old, including the ones who had gone south and got home dead. His direwolf apparently supports his opinion, but Shaggydog is even less articulate than Rickon. Perhaps Rickon has green dreams which he can neither perfectly understand nor explain to others but which frighten him and make it clear to him that all these southward journeys will not end well. This would be the classic trope of the seer whose word is not heeded.

 

 

 

 

 

I too have wondered if Rickon has greendreams.  I’ve also wondered if all the Starks could be greenseers.  Ayra and Sansa have also had dreams that could be construed as prophetic, but they could also be explained as a reflection of their anxieties, or it’s because someone else is entering their dreams.  The particular instance I’m thinking of is when Sansa dreams of Bran in Red Keep’s godswood.  There doesn’t seem to be any doubt of Jon’s dreams being prophetic –though it could be due to his Targ heritage.  Considering that only one warg in a thousand is also a greenseer, it might be too much for all 6 Starks to be greenseers too.  On the other hand, all 6 Starks are wargs, so that already beats the odds.  I guess the point I’m trying to make is that Bran getting picked be a greenseer is less about him having abilities beyond what his siblings have and more because he was the first one that didn’t have some other role that needed to be fulfilled.

 

 

 

Seams, on 13 Sept 2015 - 5:36 PM, said:

 

It's a bit speculative on my part, but I've also wondered whether the model of the three Targaryen brothers - Aegon V, Aemon and Brynden Rivers/Bloodraven - will provide us with clues that apply to Bran and Rickon Stark and Jon Snow. The problem is, I'm not sure there's a one-to-one comparison among the three Targaryans and the three Starks. More a set of qualities and roles that are shared among both sets of brothers - perhaps another mosaic, like the Theon/ Ramsay/ Stiv the wildling comparison. The qualities include seeing things far away (through ravens and/or green dreams and/or the reading of books), a humble experience that masks noble origins, scholarly pursuits, possibly skinchanging/warging (ravens, dragon eggs, direwolves) and a sort of teamwork approach to ruling Westeros, including one brother in the underworld, one at the edge of the world and one among the people (we have yet to see which Stark brother might be among the people or on the iron throne). Another complication is that Rhaegar might be the third Targaryan, not Aegon V. Or maybe he replaced Aegon V as the trio evolved. This suggests an artist and a warrior aspect - or maybe a lover and father aspect? - for the mix.



 

 

 

 

The more I think about it, the more I think Bran, Jon, and Rickon’s storylines are connected with one another’s, and there are lot of similarities among them.  I’m not sure the Aegon V, Aemon, and Bloodraven comparison works because Bloodraven is Aegon and Aemon’s great-uncle (I think) not their brother unless you count Bloodraven joining the Night Watch as becoming their brother similar to Yoren claiming kinship  (and by blood Jon is a cousin instead of brother).  I see a lot of similarities among the six of them as individuals, but I’m not sure about the brother comparison.  Still this had led me thinking about comparing Jon, Bran, and Rickon with other ASOIAF brothers and the one that stood out to me the most was comparing them to Daeron the Drunken, Aerion, Aemon, and Aegon V –especially if you include Theon along with Jon, Bran, and Rickon.  I don’t think there is a perfect one on one fit, but I think there are a lot of similarities and contrasts among them personally and their brotherly relationships.  Also one of Bran’s favorite stories is about Aerion drinking wildfire.  

 

 

 

Nymeria's pack, on 19 Sept 2015 - 4:21 PM, said:

 

This is  a wonderful thread. I've always been interested in the direwolves but couldn't have hoped to analyse it this well. There are so many interesting points made. I have little to add but I was really struck by the comments on Shaggydog's colouring.  I am actually rereading ACOK at the moment, and had just read the discussion around Shaggy's green eyes, and this jumped off the page at me, the description of Renly's pavilion just before his death: 

 

The candles within Renly's pavilion made the shimmering silken walls seem to glow, transforming the great tent into a magical castle alive with emerald light.  .. The green light shone strangely...

 

The glowing green reminded me at once of Shaggydog's eyes and I wonder if the strange green light was more pronounced because of the approaching magic. I got to thinking further about the colour green: greendreams, greenseeing, Jojen's green eyes.  And the less pleasant associations with green:the green flames around Lightbringer as Stannis drew it from the fire, wildfire, Cersei's blazing green eyes.

 

I hope Shaggydog's green eyes are more indicative of a strong magical presence than destruction and evil. But Shaggydog and Rickon, unless Osha has managed to guide them successfully, are potentially the angriest and most destructive of the Stark kid/direwolf combos.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nymeria’s pack, welcome and thank you!

 

 

 

I’m a huge fan of ASOIAF’s color symbolism.  I also think Shaggy’s eyes is more of indication of a strong magical presence than inherent evil.  I tend to think the evil in ASOIAF magic is not in the magic itself but from the hearts of its practitioners.  Of course perception always matters when discussing whether something is evil or not.  Stannis’ faction considers the wildfire used during the Battle of Blackwater as evil, but the Lannister faction doesn’t.  Also all accounts say the wildfire did the realm a favor when it killed Aerion. 

 

 

 

Julia H., on 19 Sept 2015 - 11:32 PM, said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Shaggydog’s green eyes: As someone, I think, upthread observed, Shaggydog’s colours are just the opposite of Ghost’s: white and red versus black and green. I don’t know if it means potential antagonism or that Jon and Rickon somehow complement each other (after all, black is also Jon’s colour). Green is associated with various things in ASOIAF – usurping, Baratheons and Lannisters, summer and youth, as well as a type of magic (greenseers and green dreams). Shaggydog’s eyes are likely to belong to this last category – perhaps Rickon has wolf dreams that are also green dreams. 

 

 

 

I tend to think Shaggy and Ghost’s colors are meant to complementary rather antagonism --each having something that will be useful to the other.  I won’t be surprised if someone tries to turn the Stark kids against each other, but I have no doubt any such attempt will end in failure.  Looking at Shaggydog’s from the green = usurper and black = rightful claim perspective is interesting.  If Rickon is chosen as the new King in the North or Lord of Winterfell he would be usurping the claims of Bran and possibly Jon, but his claim is better than Sansa, Arya, and possibly Jon again.  While green and black tends to denote opposing factions, think of what could’ve been if those factions had been united instead.  No Dance of the Dragons?  Renly and Stannis successfully taking the Iron Throne back from the Lannisters?  If Shaggydog’s coloring could actually mean unity rather than discord, it’s going to be a powerful, possibly game changing, force.  

 

 

 

Bastetcat, on 04 Oct 2015 - 6:07 PM, said:

 

 

 

Men, this is happening. How could I miss that? Bran is the catalyst, the first to "go against" the Lannisters by witnessing the incest. Then Robb goes to war. And it is Rickon who is unknown treat to the Lannister throne by opposing the Boltons. You are incredible, thank you for pointing that out!

 

 

 

 

 

Bastetcat, welcome and thank you!

 

 

 

I definitely think this should be kept in mind while reading the upcoming chapters.        

 

 

 

 

Seams (04 October):

 

Spoiler

 

#216 Seams

 

 

 

Posted 04 October 2015 - 07:36 PM

 

Julia H., on 19 Sept 2015 - 11:32 PM, said:

 

I don’t see a one-to-one comparison between the Targaryens you mention and the Stark brothers (though it may be entirely my fault). Jon can be compared to Aegon V in the sense that despite his birth he spends years among commoners in “disguise”, but he also parallels Aemon as a brother of the Night’s Watch. Bran is Bloodraven’s apprentice, but their lives before their weirwood experience are rather different. (By the way, Bloodraven was the son of Aegon IV and half-brother to Daeron II, who was the grandfather of Aegon V and Aemon, which makes Bloodraven Aegon and Aemon’s great uncle, not brother)....

 

 
 
 

 

Harlaw's Book the Sequel, on 05 Oct 2015 - 12:40 AM, said:

 

The more I think about it, the more I think Bran, Jon, and Rickon’s storylines are connected with one another’s, and there are lot of similarities among them.  I’m not sure the Aegon V, Aemon, and Bloodraven comparison works because Bloodraven is Aegon and Aemon’s great-uncle (I think) not their brother unless you count Bloodraven joining the Night Watch as becoming their brother similar to Yoren claiming kinship  (and by blood Jon is a cousin instead of brother).  I see a lot of similarities among the six of them as individuals, but I’m not sure about the brother comparison.  Still this had led me thinking about comparing Jon, Bran, and Rickon with other ASOIAF brothers and the one that stood out to me the most was comparing them to Daeron the Drunken, Aerion, Aemon, and Aegon V –especially if you include Theon along with Jon, Bran, and Rickon.  I don’t think there is a perfect one on one fit, but I think there are a lot of similarities and contrasts among them personally and their brotherly relationships.  Also one of Bran’s favorite stories is about Aerion drinking wildfire.

 

Yes, sorry, I meant to acknowledge earlier my own careless error about Bloodraven's relationship to Aemon and Aegon. I was thinking out loud, with the emphasis on out loud instead of thinking, unfortunately.

But there do seem to be links between and among Bran, Jon and Rickon (at least, what little we know of Rickon). When Bran hears that Jon has named his direwolf Ghost, Bran wishes he had thought of that name for his own direwolf. As you point out, Shaggy Dog and Ghost could represent a sort of yin/yang set of complementary strengths or powers. We've already noticed that Robb spares wildling Osha's life in a way that can be compared to Jon sparing wildling Ygritte's life. Osha becomes special to Rickon and Ygritte becomes special to Jon. All three of them have important scenes in the Winterfell crypt. All three of them head north (as far as we know about Rickon) and stay there.

I like the idea of including Theon in the group. Interesting that he is the fourth "brother" and Robb is not. I think I better go back and read the Dunk & Egg stories a second time 

 

Bastetcat (05 October):

 

 

Spoiler

 

#217 Bastetcat

 

 

 

Posted 05 October 2015 - 03:02 PM

 

To be honest I never felt Shaggydog to be Rickon's. From the moment we are introduced to the GREENseers, I feel like Shaggydog would be better with Bran. Black and green, darkness and nature, shadow hiding the greenseer, this is more like Bran. While we know almost nothing about Rickon.

 

So for me Shaggydog would better be Bran's, and Summer would better be Rickons. This disturbed me for so long.  You never felt this way? It is like a mistake to me.

 

There is 2 special (I mean more magical related) boy we know of: and that is Jon (Targ?) and Bran (greenseer). I want to understand why did Rickon got the other special looking wolf. Especially after GRRM sad his story is a shaggy-dog story. 

 

 

 

But then in my mind, I could see a gray color-palette with the wolf's. This is how I imagine the wolf's:

 

1   White - for the oldest - Jon.

 

2   Light gray - the oldest Stark - Robb.

 

3   Gray - for the oldest girl - Sansa

 

4   Darker gray - for the youngest girl - Arya

 

5   More darker gray - for Bran.

 

6   Black - for the youngest - Rickon.

 

 

 

Any idea why Rickon has the black wolf?

 

 

 

Edit: the usual: spelling, grammar.

 

 

 

Edited by Bastetcat, 05 October 2015 - 03:05 PM.

 

 

 

 

 

Eiko Dragonhorn (05 October):

 

Spoiler

 

#218 Eiko Dragonhorn

 

 

 

Posted 05 October 2015 - 11:34 PM

 

Bastetcat, on 05 Oct 2015 - 9:02 PM, said:

 

 

 

Any idea why Rickon has the black wolf?

 

 

 

 

 

The Black/Green palette represents future involvement in the DotD 2.0.

 

 

 

See also: Tyrion's eyes.

 

 

 

 

Seams (11 October):

 

 

Spoiler

 

#219 Seams

 

Posted 11 October 2015 - 11:25 AM

 

Julia H., on 08 Jul 2015 - 1:13 PM, said:

 

JON VII

 

       

 

Analysis

 

After Jon hears of Lord Stark’s imprisonment:

 

The rest of the afternoon passed as if in a dream. Jon could not have said where he walked, what he did, who he spoke with. Ghost was with him, he knew that much. The silent presence of the direwolf gave him comfort.

 

The “as if in a dream” phrase reminds me of Jon’s crypt dream again. He saw the dead kings come stumbling out of their graves. Ned had also seen the dead of Winterfell in a dream and felt their anger.

 

 

 

Disgraced

 

After Thorne has woken the dragon   , Jon is chastised, disarmed and confined to his sleeping cell.

 

(…) but the Old Bear did relent and permit him Ghost, so he was not utterly alone.

 

 

 

The Attack

 

Ghost is trying to open the door, Ghost is upset, Ghost even shows his fangs to Jon. Is Ghost angry with Jon for being so “slow” for failing to open his eyes and ears? Or is he just trying to communicate the danger to him in this way, too?

 

 

 

 

 

evita mgfs, on 11 Jul 2015 - 3:06 PM, said:

 

What is your theory about how Ghost escapes?  ...

 

 

 

The first thing pretty Jon Snow does when he wakes – regularly – is open the window to allow Mormont’s raven access to the outside.  LC Snow usually keeps the window opened throughout the day for his free-ranging bird.

 

In Catelyn’s POV early in AGoT, she discloses Ned’s habit of opening his bedchamber wimdow to invite in the refreshing cold air of the north.  Likewise, Jon finds the cool breeze refreshing, just like his “father” – an affinity for the cold seems to be a Stark thing [and the Other’s?].

 

Ghost/Jon will exit, and the snow drifts accumulated throughout the day will buffer Ghost’s leap.  Ghost’s traveling companion will be Mormont’s raven. 

 

 

 

I went back to re-read Julia H.'s previous chapter summary because it was originally posted when I was on vacation and I didn't read it thoroughly. The exchange with evita mgfs about Ghost being behind a closed door at some critical moments in the plot, and how those doors open, got me to thinking. Julia H. noted the important new development at this point in Jon's crypt dream of the Winterfell kings emerging from their tombs - it seems likely to me that this is linked to the situation of Jon and/or Ghost being confined to a sleeping cell and then emerging from that cell to defeat an Other. (Maybe that was the point you already made, and I'm only just now "getting" it.)

 

 

 

You cite a passage in the story where Jon feels naked when Ghost disappears into the trees for awhile. With the linked imagery we seem to be working out regarding warging and wolf pelts and cloaks, this also strikes me as significant. Jon wears the black cloak of the Night's Watch, but his real cloak is his wolf. Without Ghost, he feels naked and alone. Jon wants to be a ranger and not a servant to the Lord Commander, but - at this point - he feels naked when out ranging unless Ghost is nearby. Later, in a cave with Ygritte, he makes love for the first time while completely naked instead of being wrapped in furs. He finds he likes it. A key difference seems to be inside (cave) vs. outside (ranging above the wall). I know people have pointed out that Ghost and Ygritte are not on stage at the same time, and Ygritte becomes a direwolf-substitute for Jon in the absence of Ghost. But it seems like there is a significant set of inside/outside symbols at work here in addition to thenaked=uncomfortable vs. naked=wonderful and the Ghost vs. Ygritte comparisons.

 

 

 

The follow-up insight from evita mgfs about Ned opening the window reminds me of the thing Ned and Dany have in common: Ned worships outside in nature; Dany learns from the Dothraki to be comfortable with nudity and that anything important (such as conceiving her baby) should be done outside, under the open sky.

 

 

 

Jon confined to his sleeping "cell" at the same time Ned is imprisoned in King's Landing also seems linked to this larger inside/outside motif. Who else is confined to a cell? Tyrion will be in a sky cell at the Eyrie, open but confined. When he is confined, the jailer takes the shadow cat cloak that (I believe) Tyrion won gambling during his journey north to the Wall. When he is let out of the cell, Tyrion reclaims the shadow cat cloak. Another link between the pelts/cloaks and nakedness symbols with the inside/outside symbols? Also a shadow cat is an animal that is supposed to exist only above the Wall, I believe, like a direwolf.

 

 

 

And then there is Jaime, confined to a cell when he is captured by Robb Stark's army. Who sets Jaime free? "Cat" Stark (who is soon to be a shadow of her former self), along with Brienne, the Maid of Tarth. This may be too much of a stretch (and a tangent for the direwolf discussion), but the Eyrie is supposedly built with stone from Tarth, the Sapphire Isle. So Tyrion was imprisoned in a stone cell made of the Sapphire Isle, and Jaime is transformed by his exposure to the woman from the Sapphire Isle.

 

 

 

I'm going to have to keep a closer eye on doors as we continue to read. Jon and Tyrion meet for the first time when Tyrion does a gymnastic leap off the top of a door (sort of like a cat?) outside the feast at Winterfell. Bran was pushed out of a window he hadn't quite entered, and he will be passing through a lot of difficult doors (Hodor is notably instrumental in shoving open a blocked door from the Winterfell crypt - I wonder whether it's significant that this door opens outward while the door on Jon's sleeping cell swings inward? - and in getting Bran and Meera and Jojen through a transom over a door in Queenscrown. And then there's the Black Gate, which Bran & Co. pass through only with the assistance of Samwell Tarly.) Do all characters have equal difficulty going inside and outside? Or is it easier for some to be or to go inside, while others are usually outside (or find it easy to go outside)? Which characters open (or guard closed) doors for others? Is it always clear what is inside and what is outside? Passing through the Wall doesn't clearly mark an "in" side: below and above the Wall are both outside; GRRM makes a point of telling us that Castle Black does not have a defensive wall on the south. But the Wall is the edge of the world according to a conversation between Tyrion and Jon, so maybe that's the inside/outside difference.

 

 

 

One more thing, inspired by your dialogue: Fools. It seems as if Jon is surrounded by fools, in the GRRM sense of figures who hang around and seem to know a lot but don't communicate their wisdom clearly in words. (Or, maybe, their communications are clear except to the people who need to understand and take seriously what they are trying to say.) Mormont's raven falls into this category for me; Ghost is silent but communicates in spite of the silence. The direwolf is also the subject of an ironic bet about being taught to juggle. Dolorous Edd also seems to fit this Fool category, in some ways. When he is at the Wall, Tyrion's words and behaviors also seem to fit the Fool pattern - jumping on a chair (table?), waving around a crab fork and making jokes at the expense of Alliser Thorne. Maybe Ygritte has some of the Fool wisdom, too, constantly telling things to Jon and then realizing that he knows nothing, in spite of her attempts to educate him. I'm not 100% sure how the Fools theme connects to this notion of inside/outside, except that evita mgfs points out that the raven can be both inside and outside, if Jon opens a window for it. Maybe one of GRRM's points is that Fools can move back and forth between inside and outside or between different environments - Patchface has the unfortunate experience of almost drowning (but he recovers), so he can apparently exist underwater as well as on land. Ser Dontos helps Sansa to get outside of King's Landing were she has been a hostage - meeting her outside in the Godswood and helping her to get to the waiting ship. This connection between the fools and inside/outside motif is still a half-baked idea, as you can tell. I welcome corrections or further examples.

 

 

 

 

Julia H. (11 October):

 

 

Spoiler

 

#220 Julia H.

 

 

 

Posted 11 October 2015 - 01:15 PM

 

CATELYN VIII - IX

 

Overview

 

 

 

Catelyn meets Robb at Moat Cailin, and they discuss the situation and Robb’s battle plans. Later Robb’s army arrives at the Twins and Catelyn negotiates with Walder Frey.

 

 

 

Observations

 

 

 

- I love the description of Moat Cailin.

 

- Catelyn VIII is the chapter where the necessity of crossing the river at the Twins is first mentioned.

 

- This is also the chapter where Robb chooses Roose Bolton to lead the host that will meet Tywin’s forces, while Robb is marching towards Riverrun.

 

- Catelyn IX is an even more ominous chapter in hindsight than it seemed when I read it for the first time.

 

 

 

Analysis

 

 

 

 

 

Banners and Towers

 

 

 

The first direwolf reference in the chapter is the Stark banner flying on the Gatehouse Tower, Robb’s seat in Moat Cailin. The other banners mentioned are the Karstark sunburst on the Drunkard Tower and the Greatjon’s giant on the Children’s Tower. There may be some symbolism here. The giants and the children are clearly related: two magical races from beyond the Wall. The Karstark men seem to have a tendency for the extreme – a thirst for glory and the spoils of victory, as well as a thirst for revenge. The Drunkard Tower may refer to that.  Robb and the Gatehouse… Oh, I’ll just leave it to other participants to solve this one.  

 

 

 

I will only add that Moat Cailin, the southern gateway to the North, seems to mirror the Wall, the northern boundary, in some respects:

 

 

 

All that was left of the great stronghold of the First Men were three towers … three where there had once been twenty, if the taletellers could be believed.

 

 

 

It sounds very similar to the nineteen castles of the Night’s Watch along the Wall, of which only three are currently garrisoned. The number 19 is rather curious, when 20 is such a nice round number, and here, at Moat Cailin, we have tales of 20 original towers. Could this suggest that there were 20 NW castles, too, only one of them has been totally destroyed and forgotten?

 

 

 

Grey Wind

 

 

 

As Catelyn enters, Grey Wind is the first one to notice her and to greet her.

 

 

 

At first he did not notice her… but his wolf did. The great grey beast was lying near the fire, but when Catelyn entered he lifted his head, and his golden eyes met hers.

 

 

 

Grey Wind, the ever vigilant.

 

 

 

The lords fell silent one by one, and Robb looked up at the sudden quiet and saw her. “Mother?” he said, his voice thick with emotion.

 

 

 

Catelyn would like to run to him and to kiss him, but she has to respect Robb’s status as a man grown, as a lord. She must not treat her as a child in front of his bannermen.

 

 

 

The direwolf got to his feet and padded across the room to where she stood. It seemed bigger than a wolf ought to be. “You’ve grown a beard,” she said to Robb, while Grey Wind sniffed her hand.

 

 

 

Interesting scene. It is a Catelyn POV chapter, therefore Catelyn’s feelings are described in detail, while Robb’s are only alluded to. I suspect that Robb would also like to run to his mother and kiss her, but he can’t do that – he must not behave like a boy any longer, he has to act like a man, like a leader, because he needs the respect of his bannermen. (Of course, showing emotions is considered a weakness in this “macho” world.) So what happens? Instead of Robb, it is Grey Wind that hurries to Catelyn first. Catelyn starts a conversation with Robb as she touches Grey Wind.

 

 

 

Catelyn stroked the wolf’s head, gently.

 

 

 

Grey Wind nipped at her fingers, playful, and trotted back to his place by the fire.

 

 

 

Grey Wind is a stand-in for Robb: he “kisses” Catelyn, expressing Robb’s emotions, and happily accepts her gentle caresses, while Robb can remain solemn and serious.

 

 

 

It can also be said that Catelyn seems to be officially accepted as part of the direwolf pack.

 

 

 

As Catelyn observes that Robb is playing a man’s part now, that he has grown a beard, she also notices how big Grey Wind is. That is another parallel between Robb and his direwolf. In fact, Catelyn thinks:

 

 

 

It seemed bigger than a wolf ought to be.

 

 

 

Doesn’t that thought reflect Catelyn’s fear that Robb is “outgrowing” the role assigned to the “wolves” i.e. the Starks, as he is starting a war against the royal family?

 

 

 

When Cat wants to be alone with her son, Grey Wind naturally stays with them. The direwolf’s place is by the fireplace, the hearth, which is a symbol of home and security. It is exactly what a mother ought to be, but Cat cannot play a traditional mother’s role here – Robb is afraid to show weakness or a need for comfort, and he needs Catelyn as an advisor in the first place.

 

 

 

He rose, clearly uncomfortable with her touch, and walked to the hearth. Grey Wind rubbed his head against his leg.

 

 

 

Robb derives comfort and security from Grey Wind – a kind of tenderness that, unlike his mother’s touch, does not make him weak. We know that Grey Wind represents Robb’s Stark ancestry, i.e. the paternal line, therefore we can think of him as a stand-in for paternal love: tough, manly, encouraging rather than overprotecting.

 

 

 

At the Crossing

 

 

 

“My lord father has sent me to greet you, and inquire as to who leads this mighty host.”

 

“I do.” Robb spurred his horse forward. He was in his armor, with the direwolf shield of Winterfell strapped to his saddle and Grey Wind padding by his side.

 

 

 

Here Robb probably looks like a Stark warrior king of old – mounted, in full armour, with a huge direwolf by his side. Stevron Frey looks at himwith a faint flicker of amusement in his watery grey eyes, but his horse whickered uneasily and sidled away from the direwolf.

 

 

 

Not for the first time, Robb’s youth is to his disadvantage, but his direwolf regularly forces people to have second thoughts about him.

 

 

 

At the end of the chapter, Grey Wind appears again by Robb’s side in an image of speed and strength:

 

 

 

Robb galloped out to meet her, with Grey Wind racing beside his stallion.

 

 

 

Once again we see Grey Wind as Robb’s bodyguard and “constant companion”: fast as a horse, fast as the wind, strong and fast as Robb was described by Bran in the very first chapter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

To be continued...