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[TWOIAF Spoilers] Inconsistency or Intentional?


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Perhaps more a clarification than an inconsistency, but the passage quoted below, is it meant that Raymont is a younger son of Orys, or is the Lord Baratheon mentioned here a son of Orys, making Raymont Orys' grandson?

"Many other Baratheons have won renown over the centuries, following in the footsteps Orys One-Hand and the Storm Kings before him. Ser Raymont Baratheon, a younger son of Lord Baratheon, served in the Kingsguard when Aenys I was forced to war against the Faith, and saved the life of his king when the Poor Fellows attempted to murder him in his bed."

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Also a clarification thing:



The 50th anniversary tourney for Jaehaerys I in 98 AC mentions only a great-granddaughter being present there (apparently Rhaenyra), while mentioning that all the king and queens 'surviving children and grandchildren' were there. One of them would have been Princess Rhaenys, and surely she would have been accompanied by her children Laena and Laenor, who were also great-grandchildren of Jaehaerys I.



Sure, the Velaryons could have been still pissed about the 92 AC decision, and thus could have decided to stay on Driftmark, but then the text should not mention that all the grandchildren were there. It is difficult to imagine that Rhaenys was there, but Laenor and Laena were not allowed to go.


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KCenturion,



yes, although Laenor may have gotten Seasmoke only in 99-101 AC. All we know is that he recently had become a dragonrider in 101 AC. But Meleys and possibly Vhagar (depending on when Laena claimed her) would have been absent.



Silverwing and Vermithor lived at court anyway, I presume. Baelon and Viserys/Aemma may have resided on Dragonstone, so they would have traveled to KL, but I guess if that was the case they (and Baelon's dragon) visited court frequently.



Gael would have lived at court, too, and Alyssa - if she was still alive - would have lived wherever Baelon resided.



I've really no idea where all those dragons supposedly came from...


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About the theon stark/harrag hoare stuff:

Some (including me) thought that it was an inconsistency that theon stark fought harrag hoare because he also fought the andals, because house hoare only came to rule the iron islands after the andal conquest. Now, after a twoiaf reread and a reread of the series i noticed something:

Aeron mentions harrag hoare as a driftwood king who was elected on a kingsmoot.

And the iron islands section about the black blood says that there were some strong rulers ( or so) when their house ruled the isles uhtil aegon came. The text says explicitly that there were strong rulers like the old kings of the age of heroes like harrag and his son. So this in combination with aerons mentioning of him chosen by a kingsmoot makes harrag a driftwood king and the probable error no error at all.

Also the wiki says he was a driftwood king. In the black blood chapter he and ravos are only referred to as strong rulers of older ages (there were some driftwood kings of house hoare)

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The quote again:

Not since the Doom of Valyria had so many dragons been seen in one place at one time, it was truly said.

Can we take this to mean that there were at least "more than 5 dragons" at this event? Aenar fled Valyria with 5 dragons and I'm assuming they all lived until the Doom occurred.

Dreamfyre (Aemma's?) and Caraxes (Daemon) would also be around. So that only confirms 4 being at the event.

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The quote again:

Can we take this to mean that there were at least "more than 5 dragons" at this event? Aenar fled Valyria with 5 dragons and I'm assuming they all lived until the Doom occurred.

Dreamfyre (Aemma's?) and Caraxes (Daemon) would also be around. So that only confirms 4 being at the event.

That's what I figured it meant, yeah... Though perhaps more than 5... Yes, we know Aenar arrived with 5, and 4 died, and 2 newly hatched... But did Meraxes and Vhagar hatch only after the four other dragons had died? Or did Meraxes hatch before, and Vhagar after? Or did one dragon die, and then both Meraxes and Vhagar hatched? There are quite a few scenario's this way..

Maximally, there would have been 7 dragons alive on Dragonstone at one point, if Meraxes and Vhagar had both hatched before either of the four dragons had died.

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Cross-referencing with The Rogue Prince, we can kind of tell that Syrax was young in 104 AC...Rhaenyra named her then. I doubt she was just wild and unnamed for many years.

The problem is that I don't think we can assume any dragons died of natural causes -- though this discounts unhealthy hatchlings who didn't last more than a few hours. Or who the Cannibal ate. Balerion was the only one to die of old age. Seasmoke was smaller, around Tessarion's size, but Laenor named him in 94 AC - how much bigger could he get?

I mean, another problem is that age does not always produce an equal size -- after we, uh, found out that Meraxes managed to grow nearly to Balerion's size by the time she died, but Vhagar never grew quite as big as Meraxes in over a century (so that the smallest skull Tyrion sees is still accurately Vhagar's...yeah...)

But the narrative does say that dragons born later never grew as big, so Vermithor was always the largest after Vhagar.

By the Dance we had:

  • Heavyweight class: Vhagar (Super-Heavyweight), Vermithor, Silverwing, Dreamfyre, Meleys, Caraxes, and Syrax.
  • Lightweight class: Seasmoke, Sunfyre, Tessarion, Vermax, Arrax, Tyraxes, and Moondancer.
  • Unridable hatchlings: Stormcloud, Morghul, Shrykos.

Grey Ghost may have been around Sunfyre's size. Sheepstealer was hatched when Jaehaerys I was young and would have been around 80 years old - no exact guide to his size. No one knew exactly how old the Cannibal was, except that he was older than Sheepstealer.

There weren't any major wars that a royal prince riding a dragon would get killed in. Except for Aemon, the first son of Jaehaerys I...died fighting Myrish pirates who captured half of Tarth. Might he have ridden a dragon? I'd think it odd if the crown prince wasn't riding Balerion or something.

Third son, Archmaester Vaegon, was called "The Dragonless"...implying the other sons (and maybe daughters too) had dragons?

Half a dozen hatchlings Maegor passed on for Balerion. Later, Vermithor and Silverwing hatched around the beginning of Aenys's reign.

Dreamfyre was Rhaena's and she fled Maegor on her. Meleys seems pretty old. Syrax and Caraxes struck me as younger - like, hatched during Jaehaerys's reign, not all the way at the beginning.

The Cannibal might have finished off some of the hatchlings.

If we say that there must have been at least six with riders - for the trip to Winterfell and for the great tourney of 98 AC....ah, but there were only "more than since the Doom" at the Great Tourney, not at Winterfell. This was in 98 AC, a year before Alysanne died, and I don't think either she or Jaehaerys I were fit enough to make a long journey to Winterfell that late in their lives.

So there probably *more* than six. If Meraxes and Vhagar were hatched while the Dragonstone Four were still living, that's at most Seven. So yes, seven ridden dragons by 98 AC.

Vermithor (ridden by Jaehaerys I), Silverwing (ridden by Alysanne), Seasmoke (ridden by Laenor). Laena was only 5 in 98 AC so I doubt she was riding Vhagar that early. Irrelevant, we know Vhagar was around. So that's...four.

Yeah, seven heavyweights (including Caraxes and Syrax, who I think were younger, plus Meleys and Dreamfyre), and seven by 98 AC. Some might have hatched and died in intervening years of course, if Aemon died with a dragon in 92 AC.

I'm sorry I'm "thinking out loud" as I type, for my own benefit....

Let's say exactly eight hatchlings. Last two, Vermithor and Silverwing. ...might be two hatchlings unaccounted for, later eaten by the Cannibal, or one who died with Aemon.

And again: Syrax and Caraxes seemed young enough that I don't think they were amongst those original hatchlings...yeahh....

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A clarification would be appreciated:

A generation later, the Lannisters captured the town of Kayce when Herrock the Whoreson blew his great gold-banded horn and the town whores opened a postern gate to his men.

So, this Herrock is a Lannister? Or is the Herrock Kenning mentioned in the A World of Ice and Fire app that founded House Kenning of Kayce and had the Horn of Herrock - black, banded with gold - which was passed down through generations?


And another one: is the Valyrian steel blade of Dalton Greyjoy, "Nightfall", the same Valyrian steel blade of House Harlaw named Nightfall?

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Davos tells us in ACoK that the Targaryens took up the Seven when they made Dragonstone their permanent home. The idols of the Seven at the sept -- the ones that Stannis burned -- were said to have been carved from the masts of their ships.

So I checked, and unless I'm missing something Davos does not tell us that. He just tells us the masts were carved into the idols. It's possible that those ships survived the century of blood and were only turned into the idols at Aegon's command when he decided to convert prior to invading. This would be consistent with the SSM that Aegon converted for political reasons. So I'm wondering do you know for certain that Martin changed his mind and now Aegon did not make the decision to convert, or were you assuming because of the masts thing?

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GRRM's response at Asshai is sort of in error -- bear in mind that a third party was translating questions in Spanish to English for him, and it may be that the translator said "Targaryens" rather than Aegon. Yes, the Targaryens adopted the Seven as a political maneuver, but because of this Aegon was a follower of the Seven (at least nominally; truth be told he seems to have been pretty irreligious) from infancy. And Aegon certainly had the High Septon crown him as a political maneuver as well, so perhaps that's what GRRM took out of whatever was translated to him.

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GRRM's response at Asshai is sort of in error -- bear in mind that a third party was translating questions in Spanish to English for him, and it may be that the translator said "Targaryens" rather than Aegon. Yes, the Targaryens adopted the Seven as a political maneuver, but because of this Aegon was a follower of the Seven (at least nominally; truth be told he seems to have been pretty irreligious) from infancy. And Aegon certainly had the High Septon crown him as a political maneuver as well, so perhaps that's what GRRM took out of whatever was translated to him.

Gotcha, thanks for the response.

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To revisit the question of Lomas Longstrider:



Longstrider says that Casterly Rock's gold is spoken of even in Asshai, but later it is directly stated that he never saw Asshai.



...he did visit Yi Ti. Is this reconciled just by saying that he *heard* merchants from Yi Ti who do go to Asshai saying that even the people there talk about Casterly Rock?



This was asked before I don't know if it was answered (that, and that his name is mispelled as "Loras" a few times)



***New question about Lomas Longstrider: it is said that at the sight of the Bone Mountains, even he lost heart. And that he never went by ship through the Shivering Sea (as Corlys Velaryon did). Lost heart and thought he had come to the end of the earth.....only to then find out that he later did visit Yi Ti. He also visited Kayakayanaya and her sister cities.



So did he later have a change of heart and press on ahead? Or did he just think that the land transit over the mountains was too dangerous....so he went around them to the south through the Jade Gates? Which would seem logical as its a major trade artery leading right to Yi Ti. In which case, did he then visit Kayakayanaya et all by simply approaching from the west? (actually it isn't stated if he "visited" them, only that he said that there were no fiercer warriors in the world).


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