[TWOIAF Spoilers] Inconsistency or Intentional?

[Lord Varys]

Oh, damn, I should read better. But thanks, that settles that!

[Ser Lepus]

Error

[LordBloodraven]

Note that Patrice is called maiden aunt to Lord Martyn Hightower. Morgan is Martyn's younger brother, not the High Septon's. Small error.

Why is the maiden aunt given a male name (Patrice)? :laugh:

Anyway, I have a beef with some of the names (Aegon/Haegon; Aemon/Aemond). I guess there's a difference in pronunciation, otherwise it would be a nightmare

[Ran]

Re: Sarthar and the Sarne,

Okay, after much puzzling and looking back at George's original hand drawn maps...

What basically happened is that George's vision of the Sarne did not, alas, make it through to TLoIaF. I can see what happened exactly, though. When he wrote KINGDOM OF SARNOR, he sort of half-erased (for legibility) a westward curving line that connected up to the river at Sarnath. Jonathan, trying his best to puzzle it out, supposed that George had dropped the idea and instead intended the rivers shown around Sathar to join up and exit north at the Bay of Tusks, a separate river system.

But now in writing the Sarnor material, George continued on with his actual intention -- the lakes north of Sathar are the remnants of the Silver Sea, and are the source of the Sarne, with Sathar at the juncture of two branches before the river meanders westward and meets more vassal rivers as it continues on west and then curves north.

So... TLoIaF is in error here. Very understandable, the several pieces of map that made up Central Essos were very difficult to piece together, and it's easy to miss a detail like this. Jonathan's interpretation seemed correct at the time.

I will note it to RH, so that if there is ever a future edition of the maps they can perhaps be corrected.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Re: Sarthar and the Sarne,

Okay, after much puzzling and looking back at George's original hand drawn maps...

What basically happened is that George's vision of the Sarne did not, alas, make it through to TLoIaF. I can see what happened exactly, though. When he wrote KINGDOM OF SARNOR, he sort of half-erased (for legibility) a westward curving line that connected up to the river at Sarnath. Jonathan, trying his best to puzzle it out, supposed that George had dropped the idea and instead intended the rivers shown around Sathar to join up and exit north at the Bay of Tusks, a separate river system.

But now in writing the Sarnor material, George continued on with his actual intention -- the lakes north of Sathar are the remnants of the Silver Sea, and are the source of the Sarne, with Sathar at the juncture of two branches before the river meanders westward and meets more vassal rivers as it continues on west and then curves north.

So... TLoIaF is in error here. Very understandable, the several pieces of map that made up Central Essos were very difficult to piece together, and it's easy to miss a detail like this. Jonathan's interpretation seemed correct at the time.

I will note it to RH, so that if there is ever a future edition of the maps they can perhaps be corrected.

Easily explained by mapping being hard in medieval times, so no big deal.

Good to know though.

Adds another level to Lands actually.

[HexMachina]

Why is the maiden aunt given a male name (Patrice)? :laugh:

Anyway, I have a beef with some of the names (Aegon/Haegon; Aemon/Aemond). I guess there's a difference in pronunciation, otherwise it would be a nightmare

Patrice is also a female name, much like Leslie, Sam, Jack etc. I assume it is a variant of Patricia.

[LordBloodraven]

Patrice is also a female name, much like Leslie, Sam, Jack etc. I assume it is a variant of Patricia.

I see that Patrice is used for women in the Anglo-Saxon world. It is the French equivalent of Patrick and Patricia is its female form. But I learnt something today :)

[Legion of Doom]

Anyone else notice a few inconsistencies between what's in this new book and the pre-existing canon?

For example it mentions Aegon praying to the Seven before he launches his invasion of Westeros from Dragonstone, but I had read before that Valyrians didn't adopt the faith of the Seven until after their conquest-as they had their own hundreds of gods previously.

Also it claims that Orys Baratheon adopted a stag with a crown as as his sigil, but the crown wasn't added until Robert claimed the Iron Throne many years later.

I wonder if the mixups are deliberate though since the book is supposed to be written by a maester after all.

[Ran]

Davos tells us in ACoK that the Targaryens took up the Seven when they made Dragonstone their permanent home. The idols of the Seven at the sept -- the ones that Stannis burned -- were said to have been carved from the masts of their ships.

I recall no reference in the books to the crown being added by Robert. I think some people speculated it, but that's just speculation.

[Legion of Doom]

@King o' the Board

That makes some sense then, though the crown being added once Robert took the throne seems logical, I suppose I only can find proof of that online and not in the books themselves. Thanks!

[The Wondering Wolf]

Also it claims that Orys Baratheon adopted a stag with a crown as as his sigil, but the crown wasn't added until Robert claimed the Iron Throne many years later.

I think that was just mentioned by Bran in the first season of Game of Thrones while he had a lesson with Maester Luwin. So no canon. ;)

[Maia]

Durrendons had been kings long before Orys came along or Robert took the Iron Throne. It makes sense for the crown to be an intrinsic part of their sigil.

[RumHam]

Also it claims that Orys Baratheon adopted a stag with a crown as as his sigil, but the crown wasn't added until Robert claimed the Iron Throne many years later.

Yeah as The Wandering Wolf said, that's show canon. The crown is there for the Laughing Storm in the first Dunk & Egg story.

[RumHam]

Davos tells us in ACoK that the Targaryens took up the Seven when they made Dragonstone their permanent home. The idols of the Seven at the sept -- the ones that Stannis burned -- were said to have been carved from the masts of their ships.

I'm not sure you'll answer this, but Did Aegon take both his wives in a Faith of the Seven ceremony then?

Edit: here's the SSM that caused the confusion. I always assumed Aegon had the masts carved into the idols much later.

[Did Aegon Targaryen convert to the Faith as a political maneuver?]

yes

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Month/2008/07/

[Ran]

I don't know. George does not specify in his notes.

[Lord Varys]

I'd say that the Targaryens up until Aegon and his sisters effectively followed the religion of the dragonlords - that is, none. Aenar or some other ancient Lord of Dragonstone made a public show of piety for the natives and the savage neighbors when he had some idols built from the wood of the ships, and that was it.

George's story of the Conquest really showed that Aegon I made a public show of faith towards the Faith of the Andals before, during, and after his Conquest of Westeros. That would be the fact that SSM is referring.

Visenya marrying Alys to Maegor in a Valyrian ceremony clearly shows how the Targaryens privately regarded the teachings of the septons of the Faith.

We don't know when this changed - obviously with Baelor - but there are hints that many of the Targaryen up to the Dance effectively paid lip service to the Faith of the Seven. There are Septon Barth's interests in magic (which obviously were tolerated by Jaehaerys), the continuation of the practice to name their dragons after Valyrian gods, the whole incest thing, and the general we are better than normal people thing.

But in general the dynasty slowly seemed to succumb to the belief system of their subjects.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I'd say that the Targaryens up until Aegon and his sisters effectively followed the religion of the dragonlords - that is, none. Aenar or some other ancient Lord of Dragonstone made a public show of piety for the natives and the savage neighbors when he had some idols built from the wood of the ships, and that was it.

George's story of the Conquest really showed that Aegon I made a public show of faith towards the Faith of the Andals before, during, and after his Conquest of Westeros. That would be the fact that SSM is referring.

Visenya marrying Alys to Maegor in a Valyrian ceremony clearly shows how the Targaryens privately regarded the teachings of the septons of the Faith.

We don't know when this changed - obviously with Baelor - but there are hints that many of the Targaryen up to the Dance effectively paid lip service to the Faith of the Seven. There are Septon Barth's interests in magic (which obviously were tolerated by Jaehaerys), the continuation of the practice to name their dragons after Valyrian gods, the whole incest thing, and the general we are better than normal people thing.

But in general the dynasty slowly seemed to succumb to the belief system of their subjects.

Good for them, the Seven is a mass-market, mind-numbing religion. Valyrian gods have much more power. Sad that so many had to go through ethnic cleansing for The Faith to accept them in Westeros. :bs:

[Ser Lepus]

Good for them, the Seven is a mass-market, mind-numbing religion. Valyrian gods have much more power. Sad that so many had to go through ethnic cleansing for The Faith to accept them in Westeros. :bs:

I'm not sure there was "Valyrian gods" as such, at least since the founding of the Freehold. It seems that they accepted and imported every deity in the world, so hundreds or thousands of those were worshipped in the Freehold.

[Eagle of Seagard]

Was the Lord of Hightower during the conquest Manfred (as per TWOIAF) or Banfred (as per AFFC)?

[Ran]

"Banfred" is never referenced in AFfC. That was the erroneous transliteration of someone reporting from GRRM's reading of the Conquest. It was always Manfred Hightower.