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Rhaenys_Targaryen

[TWOIAF Spoilers] Inconsistency or Intentional?

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I was wondering this same thing. Ellard was also Lord of Winterfell when Jaehaerys arranged for the Night's Watch to receive the New Gift.

So this bit with the New Gift was later in Jaehaerys's reign, or Ellard was Lord for a long time, or both.

Benjen could've ruled a rather short time, though I personally haven't tried to figure out when Cregan's reign started.

I mentioned this some time ago, that Lord Ellard was not on the tree, yet was the Lord in Jaehaerys reign shortly before Cregan.

There is (approximately) a 40 year window for Ellard to die and be replaced by Benjen, then Benjen's son Rickon, and finally for Cregan to become the Lord in time for (at the very latest) the beginning of the Dance of the Dragons. So I assume that Ellard lived to a fairly old age, and his son (presumably Benjen, though I guess Benjen could be a younger brother either) was old already when he assumed the Lordship.

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Are we definitely sure it was Ellard who was the ruling lord who had to give up the gift? I haven't got the book in front of me but I didn't get that impression from my last read.

Ellard was still Lord in 101AC. Cregan was Lord by 129AC.

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Are we definitely sure it was Ellard who was the ruling lord who had to give up the gift? I haven't got the book in front of me but I didn't get that impression from my last read.

Ellard was still Lord in 101AC. Cregan was Lord by 129AC.

"Though in these days it is said that Lord Ellard Stark was glad to aid the Night’s Watch with the Gift, and took little convincing, the truth is otherwise." regarding giving up the New Gift.

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Are we definitely sure it was Ellard who was the ruling lord who had to give up the gift? I haven't got the book in front of me but I didn't get that impression from my last read.

Ellard was still Lord in 101AC. Cregan was Lord by 129AC.

"Though in these days it is said that Lord Ellard Stark was glad to aid the Night’s Watch with the Gift, and took little convincing, the truth is otherwise." [You got me, Red Widow!]

On another note, one part I find interesting about Cregan is simply his age. He was already Lord of Winterfell when 15-year old Jace came to gain support, yet he was still able to take on Aemon the Dragonknight, who would be a generation younger than Jace. I'd imagine Lynara Stark (his last wife) to be quite a bit younger than him, considering he had already had 5 kids in his previous marriages.

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Cregan was born in 108 AC according to the MUSH, so if that age is cannonical, he would have been in his twenties.

Rickon is stated in there to have been born in 88 AC, placing 30 years between them. If we have Benjen before Rickon, Benjen would most likely have been born in 58-68 AC, and if Ellard is his father some 20 to 30 years earlier..

Torrhens sons seem to not have been adults yet, or somewhere around 16, following the Conquest. So I would guess one generation between Torrhens children, and Lord Ellard.

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Cregan was born in 108 AC according to the MUSH, so if that age is cannonical, he would have been in his twenties.

Rickon is stated in there to have been born in 88 AC, placing 30 years between them. If we have Benjen before Rickon, Benjen would most likely have been born in 58-68 AC, and if Ellard is his father some 20 to 30 years earlier..

Torrhens sons seem to not have been adults yet, or somewhere around 16, following the Conquest. So I would guess one generation between Torrhens children, and Lord Ellard.

Torrhen was around 30 right? So 16 year old kids means 14 year old dad. Not unknown, and he is a king, so heirs are of importance. Although he had a bastard half-brother so...

Most nobles irl had kids around 20.

Torrhens daughter married Ronnel Arryn when they were young. That would be probably around 6-10 AC, and by 37 AC, they had kids of their own and then died.

Ellards kids plotted rebellion when Jaehaerys forced them to cede the Gift, which is at the least 48 AC.

If Ellard and wife of Ronnel are siblings, then they are probably similar ages.

So Torrhen to 30 AC, then Ellard by 48, with grown kids, and then Benjen then Rickon and Cregan.

Torrhen->Ellard->Benjen->Rickon->Cregan.

Benjen may have been the one who plotted rebellion.

This all depends on when Torrhen dies.

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Ellards kids plotted rebellion when Jaehaerys forced them to cede the Gift, which is at the least 48 AC.

Where are you getting this from? I think you might be conflating two different things. Torrhen's sons spoke of rebelling against the Targaryens (and also refused to attend their sister's wedding to Ronnel). Ellard's brother wrote to the Citadel seeking precedent forbidding Jaehaerys from creating the new gift. But I don't recall anything about Ellard's children, or anyone, plotting rebellion because of the new gift.

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Torrhen was around 30 right? So 16 year old kids means 14 year old dad. Not unknown, and he is a king, so heirs are of importance. Although he had a bastard half-brother so...

Most nobles irl had kids around 20.

Torrhens daughter married Ronnel Arryn when they were young. That would be probably around 6-10 AC, and by 37 AC, they had kids of their own and then died.

Ellards kids plotted rebellion when Jaehaerys forced them to cede the Gift, which is at the least 48 AC.

If Ellard and wife of Ronnel are siblings, then they are probably similar ages.

So Torrhen to 30 AC, then Ellard by 48, with grown kids, and then Benjen then Rickon and Cregan.

Torrhen->Ellard->Benjen->Rickon->Cregan.

Benjen may have been the one who plotted rebellion.

This all depends on when Torrhen dies.

Is Torrhens age stated? I don't recall. Perhaps his sons were a few years younger then, but not much.. they were old enough, several years later, to refuse to attend their sisters wedding.

I don't believe it is mentioned whether Torrhens daughter and Ronnel have only children in 37AC, or also grandchildren.. the notes from that reading only specify that Ronnel and 'his family' die, and I can't currently check the world book if there's anything in there, but not that I recall.

There are noblemen who have their first child at 16, there are those who have their first child at 20, and then there are those who marry only around 30. We can't really pinpoint that.

Girls, on average, seem to have their first child in their late teens.. early twenties do occur, but usually because of reasons..

I wouldn't say that it depends on when Torrhen dies (it would seem to me before 37AC at least), but when his sons were born..

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Where are you getting this from? I think you might be conflating two different things. Torrhen's sons spoke of rebelling against the Targaryens (and also refused to attend their sister's wedding to Ronnel). Ellard's brother wrote to the Citadel seeking precedent forbidding Jaehaerys from creating the new gift. But I don't recall anything about Ellard's children, or anyone, plotting rebellion because of the new gift.

Dope...

My bad.

My point still stands.

Ellard and his bro are the sons that discussed rebellion then? He could still be wife of Ronnel's brother.

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Dope...

My bad.

My point still stands.

Ellard and his bro are the sons that discussed rebellion then? He could still be wife of Ronnel's brother.

I'm inclined to believe, due to Torrhen's sons disliking the Targaryens ruling over them, that they were at least born prior to Aegon's Conquest, if not fully grown. I would assume that Ellard (and his brother) are at least another generation removed, but this is only my impression (Ellard certainly was not born prior to the Conquest, since he was alive in 101AC)

Edit: (I know Maester Aemon lived to be over 100, but I think we can discount that as a likely possibility in general)

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Is Torrhens age stated? I don't recall. Perhaps his sons were a few years younger then, but not much.. they were old enough, several years later, to refuse to attend their sisters wedding.

I don't believe it is mentioned whether Torrhens daughter and Ronnel have only children in 37AC, or also grandchildren.. the notes from that reading only specify that Ronnel and 'his family' die, and I can't currently check the world book if there's anything in there, but not that I recall.

There are noblemen who have their first child at 16, there are those who have their first child at 20, and then there are those who marry only around 30. We can't really pinpoint that.

Girls, on average, seem to have their first child in their late teens.. early twenties do occur, but usually because of reasons..

I wouldn't say that it depends on when Torrhen dies (it would seem to me before 37AC at least), but when his sons were born..

All depictions of Torrhen are of him quite young, including the canon ones from the world book and HBO histories.

Ronnel was still young when they married, so if he was 4-9 in the Conquest, he would probably be 14-19 when the marriage occoured. Ronnel and "family" would mean more then wife, family also includes children, otherwise they would just mention wife.

A young son could still refuse to attend a marriage.

It is hard to say. We have lords who rule a year in places, and they could exist anywhere on the line.

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I'm inclined to believe, due to Torrhen's sons disliking the Targaryens ruling over them, that they were at least born prior to Aegon's Conquest, if not fully grown. I would assume that Ellard (and his brother) are at least another generation removed, but this is only my impression (Ellard certainly was not born prior to the Conquest, since he was alive in 101AC)

Edit: (I know Maester Aemon lived to be over 100, but I think we can discount that as a likely possibility in general)

Ahh of course, I forgot about the Great Council.

So Torrhen-> X son of Torrhen-> Ellard-> Rickon-> Benjen-> Cregan?

Makes sense. Ronnels wife would also be sister to X, agreed?

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All depictions of Torrhen are of him quite young, including the canon ones from the world book and HBO histories.

Those aren't completely canon ;) some might be closer to the truth than others, but it is only canon when it is described in text, or confirmed to be correct elsewhere, by certain people.

Ahh of course, I forgot about the Great Council.

So Torrhen-> X son of Torrhen-> Ellard-> Rickon-> Benjen-> Cregan?

Makes sense. Ronnels wife would also be sister to X, agreed?

Either this, or with another generation in between Torrhens son and Ellard..

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Those aren't completely canon ;) some might be closer to the truth than others, but it is only canon when it is described in text, or confirmed to be correct elsewhere, by certain people.

Either this, or with another generation in between Torrhens son and Ellard..

I honestly don't know what I was thinking when I said that....

2 generations? Stark mortality is quite high I suppose.

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The reference to Lord Ellard being glad to support the Watch is an error -- the name was put in before George provided a list of the ruling Starks going back to Torrhen to us and we saw what date actually worked properly, but missed changing the name. We'll change it to "the Starks were glad" and leave just which Lord Stark it was to George to decide for Fire and Blood.


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The reference to Lord Ellard being glad to support the Watch is an error -- the name was put in before George provided a list of the ruling Starks going back to Torrhen to us and we saw what date actually worked properly, but missed changing the name. We'll change it to "the Starks were glad" and leave just which Lord Stark it was to George to decide for Fire and Blood.

Ooh a list of ruling Starks exist!!!

Thanks a lot.

So I guess it goes Torrhen-> X Stark son of Torrhen-> Y Stark (another son of Torrhen or of X)-> Ellard-> Rickon-> Benjen-> Cregan?

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Ooh a list of ruling Starks exist!!!

Thanks a lot.

So I guess it goes Torrhen-> X Stark son of Torrhen-> Y Stark (another son of Torrhen or of X)-> Ellard-> Rickon-> Benjen-> Cregan?

I guess hypothetically Benjen Stark or even Rickon Stark could be the Lord who was happy to support the Watch though?

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I guess hypothetically Benjen Stark or even Rickon Stark could be the Lord who was happy to support the Watch though?

Lord Stark's brother asked the Citadel about land rights. Rickon had a brother, so I'd say him.

Otherwise the Lord Stark's brother would be Benjen's uncle and the Lord Stark Benjens father, as Benjen had no brothers.

So it would be Rickon, or Y Stark.

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So I guess it goes Torrhen-> X Stark son of Torrhen-> Y Stark (another son of Torrhen or of X)-> Ellard-> Rickon-> Benjen-> Cregan?

In terms of ruling Lords, that's easily possibly. We don't have any proof that Ellard was the father of Rickon however, he may have been his uncle or similar.

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