[WoIaF Spoilers] Oily Stone: Yeen, Asshai, The Wall, 5 Forts, Hinges of the World

[Moondancer]

I don't know why, but the first impression I got when I read the bit about Five Forts is Five Points Street in New York of yore. :)

[Ser Creighton]

@Ser Creighton: The parts about lustre and the mazes being described as hewn rock have been mentioned upthread (Seastone Chair, Toad effigy, and Yeen show evidence of working by hand, unlike Hightower and Five Forts, which are fused stone). However, I don't think that the fact that some of the oily stone is located on islands rules out firewyrms, which seem to inhabit the depths of the earth. Personally, I think that there is overlap between firewyrms and what we think of as volcanic activity, and of course there are volcanoes beneath the sea.

I think your comments about the unknown effects of attempting to skinchange a magical creature are appropriate, but I think that this could be related to the climatological imbalances on Planetos. I think it's at least plausible that the firewyrms were the sleeping giants awakened by skinchangers/greenseers/Children in the past. In the section on The Breaking (237), the text describes blood sacrifice and says,

"And the old gods stirred, and giants awoke in the earth, and all of Westeros shook and trembled. Great cracks appeared in the earth, and hills and mountains collapsed and were swallowed up. And then the seas came rushing in, and the Arm of Dorne was broken and shattered by the force of the water..."

I think that the similar language used here to the putative power of the Horn of Joramun (to wake the giants) is not incidental, the Horn of course being also linked to the Wall and the powers of Ice. As per your cautionary notes, if the Children/greenseers did try to control firewyrms beneath the earth/waters, it might have had unintended consequences of a magical nature.

Sorry it took so long for me to get back toe this. Well that's not what I was really pointing out about the islands, just that no evidence exists relating to volcanic activity on those particular islands. Not all islands are formed by volcanic activity. Not all tunnels are either. It seemed more in line with actual under ground cities that have been built for years, though I suspect those Islands were not always islands but again are part of what appears rising ocean levels. As we see with the arm of Dorne.

As for the Fire Wyrms I tend to look at them as a nod to Gondolin, and Tolkien. I don't think we will actually see them but feel they are more in tune with people labeling natural events. Just like with our own ancient history Gods, and monsters were often just people making up stories. Oh look a thunder storm the gods are angry. Even though magic does exist in this world, Martin has his own way of looking at magic and has talked about it. He is not big on the super powerful magic or being super skilled with magic. He has said as much I don't believe in the Horn of Winter or the Hammer of the Waters. What they probably are is stories that built up around reality which is something Martin has said he does and compares them to our own history.

This world is not 8000 years old obviously but millions and millions of years old, and just like our world I think it has had it's share of extinction level events. Massive Volcanic activity, an Ice age, and I think a major meteor strike, perhaps even the loss of a moon, or perhaps a comet striking the moon and a large piece of the moon or pieces hitting the planet.

Martin has been very specific in pointing out it would make no sense in having super powerful magic. Like the Hammer of the waters, I mean if the children could just smash a land bridge at will they should have been more than capable of destroying the first men. Your talking about an area the size of California. While I think the weather is magic related I am not so sure the long night is. The ability to block out the sun of an entire generating seems like a simple enough way to wipe man off the face of the earth. You don't even need a war, 50 years of darkness will pretty much do it.

I tend to think of the long night as an ice age caused by naturally occurring climate change or an event, asteroid, or volcanic activity. Like look at Valyria I doubt any magic brought down Valyria, it was a volcanic ring and it eventually blew. It makes no sense for a guy who does not like powerful magic and finds it pointless to put a magic that can control volcanic eruptions. That like giving a nuclear arsenal to one person in the Middle Ages.

Despite all the history, I tend to think Martin has already set the stage with pretty much everything we will see. Perhaps we get an ice dragon though I suspect it will be a metaphor, like a dragon can be a sword and a person can be a dragon and so on.

As for the stones one reason I point out meteor is because the stone is fused from the heat, Volcanic activity and dragon breath are the only other things we know of in this world capable of doing that. Oh and Wildfire I think though I am not sure. Though with both Wildfire and Dragon breath how would they control the melting point? The stone would be both cracked and melted/fused. These stones are large smooth and have been worked on.

The giants from earth I tend to think of as Volcanic activity I just don't think anyone has the ability to control it. What we do have is prophets and they are legit and much like Mel saw the deaths of some kings prophets could easily make claims that they or some person will smash the arm of Dorne or something of the like because they know when an event will take place and take credit for said event. The Children would also be capable of making such claims.

Like I don't think the Others can control the weather, I think they can do amazing things with Ice, but I think the weather is messed up. If they had the power to make it winter and night for a generation this war should already be over. I think in a small limited area they have their powers just not lets make it night for 50 years and lets summon snow fall and storms at will. It's been thousands of years and you have not done anything? I think they make their moves based on what they see in their visions, which I suspect they have, or some of them.

[Mithras]

The mazes of Lorath were made from hewn stone. That maze is the continuation of George's homages to Roger Zelazny. He created House Rogers of Amberly for him. He also mentioned Patternmaker's Maze in Braavos. Through the Pattern, one can walk among alternate worlds.

Hyrkoon and Eldric are homages to Yyrkoon and Elric of Melnibone.

Perhaps there is no real meaning behind these references.

[History of Westeros]

There is significant evidence (and some common sense) regarding the volcanic activity around Valyria that makes me believe magic must have been involved in the inhibition of said volcanic activity.

First of all, we're told that there were sorcerers that did so. This might be dismiss-able except that it is Septon Barth making the claim, and he's a man whose opinions we should not lightly dismiss.

There are also clues in AFFC that the Faceless men assassinated such magic wielders to enable the Doom, and these clues are backed up in TWOIAF.

A handful of maesters, influenced by fragments of the work of Septon Barth, hold that Valyria had used spells to tame the Fourteen Flames for thousands of years, that their ceaseless hunger for slaves and wealth was as much to sustain these spells as to expand their power, and that when at last those spells faltered, the cataclysm became inevitable. Of these, some argue that it was the curse of Garin the Great at last coming to fruition. Others speak of the priests of R’hllor calling down the fire of their gods in queer rituals. Some, wedding the fanciful notion of Valyrian magic to the reality of the ambitious great houses of Valyria, have argued that it was the constant whirl of conflict and deception amongst the great houses that might have led to the assassinations of too many of the reputed mages who renewed and maintained the rituals that banked the fires of the Fourteen Flames.

These assassinations were probably by Faceless Men, if not by the rival families. We could also suppose both were factors.

But I think the best evidence might be common sense:

Valyria nestled amidst fourteen volcanoes... 5,000+ years with no massive volcanoes ever? Followed by an insane extinction level event where *all* these volcanoes go off at once? This is nothing like the patterns on Earth.

[Ser Creighton]

There is significant evidence (and some common sense) regarding the volcanic activity around Valyria that makes me believe magic must have been involved in the inhibition of said volcanic activity.

First of all, we're told that there were sorcerers that did so. This might be dismiss-able except that it is Septon Barth making the claim, and he's a man whose opinions we should not lightly dismiss.

There are also clues in AFFC that the Faceless men assassinated such magic wielders to enable the Doom, and these clues are backed up in TWOIAF.

A handful of maesters, influenced by fragments of the work of Septon Barth, hold that Valyria had used spells to tame the Fourteen Flames for thousands of years, that their ceaseless hunger for slaves and wealth was as much to sustain these spells as to expand their power, and that when at last those spells faltered, the cataclysm became inevitable. Of these, some argue that it was the curse of Garin the Great at last coming to fruition. Others speak of the priests of R’hllor calling down the fire of their gods in queer rituals. Some, wedding the fanciful notion of Valyrian magic to the reality of the ambitious great houses of Valyria, have argued that it was the constant whirl of conflict and deception amongst the great houses that might have led to the assassinations of too many of the reputed mages who renewed and maintained the rituals that banked the fires of the Fourteen Flames.

These assassinations were probably by Faceless Men, if not by the rival families. We could also suppose both were factors.

But I think the best evidence might be common sense:

Valyria nestled amidst fourteen volcanoes... 5,000+ years with no massive volcanoes ever? Followed by an insane extinction level event where *all* these volcanoes go off at once? This is nothing like the patterns on Earth.

Yeah they were holding back the flames like Mel keeps the night at bay with her candles. Controlling the power of a Volcano, and look at the multiple options your given all those different perspectives, it was a curse, it was assassins, it was man simply placing the blame on what they chose to believe. People in South America also believed in making sacrifices to Volcanoes to quench the flames. And it worked right up till the Volcano blew. Nobody has that kind of power in these books, holding back the pressure of a Volcano? That's like containing multiple nukes. I am sure some mages claimed they were doing it and were more than happy to kill slaves to show the power of their sacrifices. All of that is relatable to the real world, and has been done in our world.

I would not doubt that the mages claiming to hold back the 14 flames got was coming to them for killing slaves, but I doubt they did a single thing to stop the Volcanoes. They over mined and weakened the crust and boom no more Valyria. If you know history you know how true to history most of this stuff rings. Martin gave the Valyrians an option, leave or die. They laughed at the Targs and died. He always gives them options.

Controlling Volcanoes, eternal night, weather control, hammer of the waters, I just don't buy it. Nothing has been seen on that scale. Remember the Warlocks, how they claimed to have sent the comet, I mean come on, I got a nice land bridge in Dorne I would like to sell you if you buy that. It's practically brand new.

[Kushluk of Skagos]

Not sure where this goes, but the giant black stone brought for worship by the Emperor of Yi Ti has a historical antecedent. Emperor Elegabulus of 3rd century Rome brought the Emessa stone, often described as a black conical stone, to Rome and forced everyone (including Senators) to worship it. Those that did not were often condemned to death. He was considered one of the worst emperors ever, and was eventually killed by his Praetorian Guards.

[History of Westeros]

Yeah they were holding back the flames like Mel keeps the night at bay with her candles. Controlling the power of a Volcano, and look at the multiple options your given all those different perspectives, it was a curse, it was assassins, it was man simply placing the blame on what they chose to believe. People in South America also believed in making sacrifices to Volcanoes to quench the flames. And it worked right up till the Volcano blew. Nobody has that kind of power in these books, holding back the pressure of a Volcano? That's like containing multiple nukes. I am sure some mages claimed they were doing it and were more than happy to kill slaves to show the power of their sacrifices. All of that is relatable to the real world, and has been done in our world.

I would not doubt that the mages claiming to hold back the 14 flames got was coming to them for killing slaves, but I doubt they did a single thing to stop the Volcanoes. They over mined and weakened the crust and boom no more Valyria. If you know history you know how true to history most of this stuff rings. Martin gave the Valyrians an option, leave or die. They laughed at the Targs and died. He always gives them options.

Controlling Volcanoes, eternal night, weather control, hammer of the waters, I just don't buy it. Nothing has been seen on that scale. Remember the Warlocks, how they claimed to have sent the comet, I mean come on, I got a nice land bridge in Dorne I would like to sell you if you buy that. It's practically brand new.

You're making a common sense argument (no magic on this scale exists) yet ignoring my common sense argument of Valyria existing for 5,000+ years amongst volcanoes that somehow never erupted.

Arguably greenseers are that powerful, even if we assume they had nothing to do with the Hammer or the Breaking (and I do tend to believe those were just natural disasters). I don't see how holding back volcanoes is more powerful than seeing everything that's ever happened.

[Kushluk of Skagos]

You're making a common sense argument (no magic on this scale exists) yet ignoring my common sense argument of Valyria existing for 5,000+ years amongst volcanoes that somehow never erupted.

Well we do not know they never erupted. All we know is that the "14" (there may have been more, or less) erupted all at once one day and wiped everything out. I would liken it to a place like Chile, which is on a major fault line. There can be an 8.5 here or a 7.9 there one day, but if there is ever a 8.8 everywhere we are all fucked.

[Clarrisa]

In Theon's chapter in A Dance With Dragons, where he is sent by Ramsey to treat with the Ironborn at Moat Cailin -

"Where once a mighty curtain wall had stood, only scattered stones remained, blocks of black basalt so large it must once have taken a hundred men to hoist them into place. Some had sunk so deep into the bog that only a corner showed; others lay strewn about like some god's abandoned toys., cracked and crumbling, spotted with lichen. Last night's rain had left the huge stones wet and glistening, and the morning sunlight made them look as if they were coated in some fine black oil."

This sounds so much to me like the 5 Forts. I wish TWOIAF had said more about Moat Cailin -

[ssls6]

This sounds so much to me like the 5 Forts. I wish TWOIAF had said more about Moat Cailin -

I do as well. The thing that confuses/intrigues me is this...where is the physical evidence/destruction from the earlier long night? It occurred in the age of heros, Bran the builder, the wall, and all that. I would think there would be locations that were never rebuilt or that show evidence.

Maybe the oily black stone ties to this somehow? Quick frozen dragon fire from an ice dragon or something crazy like this.

[Archmaester Drew]

There are actually four types of black stones being discussed here:

1. "Oily black stone" (Seastone chair, Toad Is., Yeen, Asshai, Moat Calin?, Hightower?); aka, 'Strange stone'.

2. Plain fused black stone (Five Forts, Hightower?) - similar to Valyrian, but plain; 'proto-Valyrian'?

3. Elaborate fused black stone (Dragonstone, Valyrian roads, etc.); 'Valyrian'.

4. "Bloodstone" (Yin - Bloodstone Emperor of Yi Ti) - meteorite (made of iron rich material, aka hematite -- 'bloodstone').

It would seem to me that Assahi and Yeen are linked to an ancient magical catastrophe that may have upset the elemental balance of the world -- knocking it off it's hinges, as it were -- culminating in the Long Night and subsequent imbalance of the seasons. Asshai is truly ancient and its inhabitants today, although inheritors of the magic tradition, have no tangible connection to the builders. :)

[History of Westeros]

There are actually four types of black stones being discussed here:

1. "Oily black stone" (Seastone chair, Toad Is., Yeen, Asshai, Moat Calin?, Hightower?); aka, 'Strange stone'.

2. Plain fused black stone (Five Forts, Hightower?) - similar to Valyrian, but plain; 'proto-Valyrian'?

3. Elaborate fused black stone (Dragonstone, Valyrian roads, etc.); 'Valyrian'.

4. "Bloodstone" (Yin - Bloodstone Emperor of Yi Ti) - meteorite (made of iron rich material, aka hematite -- 'bloodstone').

It would seem to me that Assahi and Yeen are linked to an ancient magical catastrophe that may have upset the elemental balance of the world -- knocking it off it's hinges, as it were -- culminating in the Long Night and subsequent imbalance of the seasons. Asshai is truly ancient and its inhabitants today, although inheritors of the magic tradition, have no tangible connection to the builders. :)

Good idea, I like breaking these down into categories and greater detail. Might help us get a bit farther with this mystery.

Some thoughts:

Moat Cailin doesn't belong in category 1, it's clearly stated to be basalt.

I wonder if the meteorite that Dawn was forged from isn't some kind of opposite to the Bloodstone, or otherwise related somehow. Especially given that the Bloodstone is correlated to the Long Night, and Dawn may be correlated with ending it.

[Archmaester Drew]

Good idea, I like breaking these down into categories and greater detail. Might help us get a bit farther with this mystery.

Some thoughts:

Moat Cailin doesn't belong in category 1, it's clearly stated to be basalt.

I wonder if the meteorite that Dawn was forged from isn't some kind of opposite to the Bloodstone, or otherwise related somehow. Especially given that the Bloodstone is correlated to the Long Night, and Dawn may be correlated with ending it.

Thanks! :) (I love your videos, btw!) :cheers:

Yes, Moat Calin shouldn't be included (I was going on the quote upthread, but further research shows it was indeed black basalt).

...Perhaps there is a counterpart to Dawn made from bloodstone meteorite -- Dusk! ;)

[Hrafntýr]

Re: Moat Cailin and basalt and category #1. We did determine upthread that Maester Yandel doesn't identify the stone for any of the "strange stone" in category one, perhaps because he has not personally seen it and is only presenting the reports of others. So it is possible that the Seastone Chair, Toad Isle effigy, Yeen and Asshai are also basalt. {Even if in real life we would expect basalt to oxidize over time, and probably loose its lustre. But in any case, GRRM has identified the basalt at Moat Cailin as oily looking. And, incidentally, I've spent time in the Deccan Traps in India, and a lot of the flood basalt there is definitely black and oily looking.}

It seems to me that the Hightower base seems to belong to category 2.

I, too, like the classification, Archmaester Drew! However, why do you associate bloodstone with hematite and meteors? I'm a little confused by that one!

[History of Westeros]

Re: Moat Cailin and basalt and category #1. We did determine upthread that Maester Yandel doesn't identify the stone for any of the "strange stone" in category one, perhaps because he has not personally seen it and is only presenting the reports of others. So it is possible that the Seastone Chair, Toad Isle effigy, Yeen and Asshai are also basalt. {Even if in real life we would expect basalt to oxidize over time, and probably loose its lustre. But in any case, GRRM has identified the basalt at Moat Cailin as oily looking. And, incidentally, I've spent time in the Deccan Traps in India, and a lot of the flood basalt there is definitely black and oily looking.}

I see that now. Very cool that you've seen the Deccan Traps in India!

However it seems this interpretation of Moat Cailin is based on a misconception. Here is the actual quote:

Last night’s rain had left the huge stones wet and glistening, and the morning sunlight made them look as if they were coated in some fine black oil.

Thus, the basalt only looks oily because of recent rain in combination with sunlight, it is not their normal state. When we first see the Moat in aGoT (a Catelyn chapter) she mentions the huge basalt blocks but doesn't mention anything about them appearing oily.

Perhaps I'm missing another quote, but it doesn't appear so.

[Archmaester Drew]

Re: Moat Cailin and basalt and category #1. We did determine upthread that Maester Yandel doesn't identify the stone for any of the "strange stone" in category one, perhaps because he has not personally seen it and is only presenting the reports of others. So it is possible that the Seastone Chair, Toad Isle effigy, Yeen and Asshai are also basalt. {Even if in real life we would expect basalt to oxidize over time, and probably loose its lustre. But in any case, GRRM has identified the basalt at Moat Cailin as oily looking. And, incidentally, I've spent time in the Deccan Traps in India, and a lot of the flood basalt there is definitely black and oily looking.}

It seems to me that the Hightower base seems to belong to category 2.

I, too, like the classification, Archmaester Drew! However, why do you associate bloodstone with hematite and meteors? I'm a little confused by that one!

Thanks! :cheers:

Yes, I agree, Hightower is category 2 -- no one ever mentions an oily appearance.

The Bloodstone Emperor of Yi Ti cast down the old gods and worshiped a black stone that fell from the sky, from which he took the name. Hematite is a black iron oxide that literally means 'bloodstone'. Meteors are also made primarily of iron. :)

[History of Westeros]

Thanks! :) (I love your videos, btw!) :cheers:

Yes, Moat Calin shouldn't be included (I was going on the quote upthread, but further research shows it was indeed black basalt).

...Perhaps there is a counterpart to Dawn made from bloodstone meteorite -- Dusk! ;)

Thanks for the shoutout!

Dawn and Dusk, that's awesome. If some crazy black sword appears we'll know what's up immediately. :)

[Hrafntýr]

Thanks! :cheers:

Yes, I agree, Hightower is category 2 -- no one ever mentions an oily appearance.

The Bloodstone Emperor of Yi Ti cast down the old gods and worshiped a black stone that fell from the sky, from which he took the name. Hematite is a black iron oxide that literally means 'bloodstone'. Meteors are also made primarily of iron. :)

Ahh, very good! I was thinking about the stones referred to by the names hematite and bloodstone today, which are two different ones. But yes, etymologically hematite is "bloodlike"stone!

[Ulthosian Stark]

Ahh, very good! I was thinking about the stones referred to by the names hematite and bloodstone today, which are two different ones. But yes, etymologically hematite is "bloodlike"stone!

Some Hematite also looks like the nights sky when polished, which would make it the opposite of Dawn, figuratively at least

[jet199]

Thanks for the shoutout!

Dawn and Dusk, that's awesome. If some crazy black sword appears we'll know what's up immediately. :)

There is a VS sword called Nightfall which was owned by the Dalton Greyjoy in TWOIAF but is owned by Harras Harlaw in the main books. It seems to have been raided from Essos, maybe Old Ghis.