[WoIaF Spoilers] Oily Stone: Yeen, Asshai, The Wall, 5 Forts, Hinges of the World

[Gonzalo]

I don't know if someone noticed before but regarding the House of the Undying, Jhogo says to Daenerys in ACoK 48:

"this is an evil place, a haunt of ghosts and maegi. See how it drinks the morning sun?"

[Waters Gate]

I don't know if someone noticed before but regarding the House of the Undying, Jhogo says to Daenerys in ACoK 48:

"this is an evil place, a haunt of ghosts and maegi. See how it drinks the morning sun?"

Interresting. I checked on the discription of the Hotu and while the building is in some state of decay it's said to have for ex. black coloured tile's on the roof.

The Hotu also has an sort of labyrinth-esque interior one could say, as one would always need to take the first door on the right when walking trough it.

We can wonder as to the origin of the Hotu. Did the warlocks build it themselfs, or did they discover a building with powerfull ancient powers inside that they started to use?

[Gonzalo]

However it also described as being built of stone and mortar.

[Waters Gate]

However it also described as being built of stone and mortar.

Well there is stone and mortar in there, some of it might be because of later additions, the hightowers also added to the hightower later.

That "drinking of the morning sun" is something also said about the stone in Asshai afaik.

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

I think these oily black stones have some radiation in them, it is odd how the river Ash in Asshai glimmers in the night. Also they talk about hideous and deformed fishes in those waters. It makes me wonder if it is similar to the case in Mantarys, where people are deformed and monstrous. Maybe in Valyria these stones were also present? It makes me wonder if they have certain magic properties (maybe even radiation) that cause cataclisms?

The oily black stone in Yi Ti fell from the skies, it makes me wonder if it is a meteorite.

All the places with this kind of stone were doomed or are said to be demon-like places, they described the Five Forts as demon-like citadels.

[Jazzman]

I definately agree with your theories Kushluk, and I too was immensly immersed with these Lovecraftian stories GRRM put in this book. I found the stories about the Thousands Isles extra terrifying, how the people made sacrifices to the "sea-gods" but feared to enter the water even if forced.

I would add a idea to your theory, have you thought about if maybe Valyria also could have counted as one of the hinges of the world, the Doom of Valyria was the destabilization of that hinge.

[Cookiesbane]

hey people, I also have my own theories/tinfoil paranoia about the oily stones (I have posted a thread about that on the general sub). I am currently doing some extra research and I came up to this. I think that it might have worked as an inspiration for GRRM, especially the part that says that imperial time Roman had not records of when the shrine was built, etc.

[The Bastard of Summer]

My candidate for the black stone would be obsidian changed by magic somehow. We know obsidian is important already. Maybe obsidian is a material that can be manipulated easily by magic? Would explain why the magic using Children of the Forest were fond of it, and why it's around on Dragonstone, an island settled by Valyrians and their dragons, bot closely connected to magic.

I agree. My thoughts exactly. Also, which is also why I think you can light obsidian candles......if obsidian can hold a flame and kill Others, that's killing two birds with one stone. The fire will kill a wight and the obsidian will kill a white walker.

[Gonzalo]

I think these oily black stones have some radiation in them, it is odd how the river Ash in Asshai glimmers in the night. Also they talk about hideous and deformed fishes in those waters. It makes me wonder if it is similar to the case in Mantarys, where people are deformed and monstrous. Maybe in Valyria these stones were also present? It makes me wonder if they have certain magic properties (maybe even radiation) that cause cataclisms?

The oily black stone in Yi Ti fell from the skies, it makes me wonder if it is a meteorite.

All the places with this kind of stone were doomed or are said to be demon-like places, they described the Five Forts as demon-like citadels.

The Ash glimmering is more likely caused by some kind of bioluminiscent plankton

[barristan-b]

The references to these blackstone structures keep popping up up throughout the book.

In the Yiti section it talks of the Bloodstone Emperor who "practiced dark arts, torture, and necromancy, enslaved his people, took a tiger-woman for his bride, feasted on human flesh, and cast down the true gods to worship a black stone that had fallen from the sky".

It goes on to say that in annals of the further east it was this act which ushered in the long night.

Like others have mentioned we know of no quarries of this blackstone. It may be sorcerous or sorcery and lost arts were required to work it. However the passage about the Bloodstone emperor suggests a blackstone fell from the sky. So maybe this oily blackrock comes from space.

We do know of another instance of something being crafted from something that fell from the sky. Dawn the sword of the Daynes. The woiaf book says "Legend says the first Dayne was led to the site when he followed the track of a falling star and there found a stone of magical powers".

Dawn however is not oily and black it is pale as milkglass alive with light. While the oily black stone is decribed in the Asshai section as "Some say as well that the stone of Asshai has a greasy, unpleasant feel to it, that it seems to drink the light, dimming tapers and torches and hearth fires alike".

A very interesting contrast. Starfall is also located not all that far from battle isle in Oldtown where one of the blackstone structures is located and the reason for the isles name is lost to the memory of man.

I just thought it was an interesting contrast. We have one blackstone falling from the sky said to drink light while another stone from the sky is alive with it. The annals record worship of a blackstone associated with the long night while many believe Dawn may be lightbringer.

I've got TWOIAF out right now, and I think much of this alludes to the idea that pre-Dawn age, there was a meteor shower of a dark composite. The material of which it is made out of has extremely unique abilities when forged or used as building material.

Thinking Pre-Dawn and even more ancient, the world was not partitioned off by the Five Forts or Wall. The step stones connected the continents as well. You have similar sounding races in northern Essos forests to the children, mirroring tales of long nights in Yi Ti.

Far easterners say man came originally from the edge of the Jade Sea. Something that specifically is said Maesters don't adhere to. There are said to be soaring men and crazy creatures beyond the forts in the unknown east and grey waste.

Another idea that is interestingly presented is the Iron Born coming from the west. Further east on the north end, no ship is capable of continuing from what it seems somewhere after the thousand isles and from those tales are where ice dragon tales are said to have come from.

Drawing this all out, I think an interesting notion is that the races used to all share the lands. A meteor shower brought a material men, hybrid men, and a select magical creatures could benefit from whereas the rest not so much. Or maybe it fugged up what is the unknown world and made it unlivable for men and company. Either way, they then established a civilization and blocked the other magical creatures out. Certain parts of this way early time arrived in western Westeros (IIs, Oldtown), and the bulk of them settled in Yeen and Asshai.

So, I'll throw out the idea that the construction of the eastern wall initially screwed up the seasons and in essence helped to block out whites, ice dragons, giant eagles, etc.

So in the unknown areas, a lot of the barred off creatures decide to go in the other direction south east beyond the grey waste until they arrive in the Lands of Always Winter. A more recent civilization constructs the wall using magic as well. Even though it's not black stone, it double fucked up the seasons.

Long story short: I agree with the OP...the oily stone material was from the civilization that first barred off the known world from the "other" creatures, royally screwing up the seasons. Age of Heroes men did it again with the wall.

[barristan-b]

To tweak my idea since it seems the oily stone may have some radioactive or odd type elements, maybe it's the source that generates a crazy r'hllorian magic but it also is death. Therefore, it should be used as weaponry and a defense structure, not so much building material for a population. Coming from a meteor that could make sense. So this would mean people in Asshai get a boost in magic but to their detriment offspring wise.

Prominent ones landed in Starfall, the far east, and maybe in shallow seas. but the only livable black buildings are these aforementioned hinges.

So weaponry/defense, but don't build with it...build with obsidian. But be careful because use to much obsidian extracting it from volcanoes can get crazy too. See: Valyria and potentially HardHome which I think was the CotF's underground obsidian factory essentially.

Dawn, Obsidian blades, Valyrian Steel. Dawn is obviously the good stuff but the others work as well.

[MaesterSam]

Oldtown was built in stone, and all its streets were cobbled, down to the meanest alley. The city was never more beautiful than at break of day. West of the Honeywine, the Guildhalls lined the bank like a row of palaces. Upriver, the domes and towers of the Citadel rose on both sides of the river, connected by stone bridges crowded with halls and houses. Downstream, below the black marble walls and arched windows of the Starry Sept, the manses of the pious clustered like children gathered round the feet of an old dowager.

The pious are likened to widow’s sons (masonic reference). They are the residents of the Starry Sept which was the center of the Faith for a long time. George made several homages to Lovecraft including the Church of Starry Wisdom. Arya hears the acolytes of the Church of Starry Wisdom doing their prayers in Braavos and they are located close to the Red Temple. In Oldtown, the bells of the septs (including the Starry Sept) announcing the dawn are joined by the singing from the Red Temple.

(Many scholars count the Bloodstone Emperor as the first High Priest of the sinister Church of Starry Wisdom, which persists to this day in many port cities throughout the known world).

However, maester Yandel says that the Church of Starry wisdom has a sinister reputation.

Here is some info about the Church of Starry Wisdom and Nyarlathotep from Lovecraft universe in spoiler tags:

I think the Hightowers might not be the pious worshippers of the Seven as people think. I think the Faith was highly corrupted by the Church of Starry Wisdom and the Hightowers are still secret worshippers of the Church of Starry Wisdom. Leyton is probably doing that for a decade, i.e. worshipping an alien god. It is said that even the Wall can be seen from Hightower. That is very similar to the rumors about Denethor while he was using the Palantir and falling under the influence of Sauron, who came from outer space and pretended to be a god.

To expand on this... the name, Church of Starry Wisdom, suggests information/wisdom somehow being received from the stars. And/or communication with stars. So here is my new pet theory: Quaithe is a priestess of this church, and has been manipulating Dany. Here are the relevant passages, the first from AGOT in Dany's fever dream after losing Rhaego, the second while delirious in the Dothraki sea at the end of ADWD:

The door loomed before her, the red door, so close, so close, the hall was a blur around her, the cold receding behind. And now the stone was gone and she flew across the Dothraki sea, high and higher, the green rippling beneath, and all that lived and breathed fled in terror from the shadow of her wings. She could smell home, she could see it, there, just beyond that door, green fields and great stone houses and arms to keep her warm, there. She threw open the door.

“... the dragon... “

And saw her brother Rhaegar, mounted on a stallion as black as his armor. Fire glimmered red through the narrow eye slit of his helm. “The last dragon,” Ser Jorah’s voice whispered faintly. “The last, the last.” Dany lifted his polished black visor. The face within was her own.

After that, for a long time, there was only the pain, the fire within her, and the whisperings of stars.

She woke to the taste of ashes.

Then, 4 books later:

She dreamed. All her cares fell away from her, and all her pains as well, and she seemed to float upward into the sky. She was flying once again, spinning, laughing, dancing, as the stars wheeled around her and whispered secrets in her ear. “To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward, you must go back. To touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow.”

“Quaithe?” Dany called. “Where are you, Quaithe?”

Then she saw. Her mask is made of starlight.

“Remember who you are, Daenerys,” the stars whispered in a woman’s voice. “The dragons know. Do you?”

So it appears that, much like in your Sauron/Denethor analogy, Quaithe has manipulated Dany into trusting her and following her advice. But what's more, there seems to be a clear link between Quaithe and the Church of Starry Wisdom, the same church started by the Bloodstone emperor to worship the black stone. [As a side note, this presents a clear difference between Mel and Quaithe: while they are both shadowbinders, they are of different faiths, with very different motivations. Possibly even opposite motivations, as Mel wants life, light and a summer that never ends, while Quaithe, if she is indeed following in the footsteps of the Bloodstone emperor, is promoting darkness and another Long Night. Funny that they would choose the champions they did; it almost seems they should trade].

As for the Hightowers, I agree, it's quite likely that they 'serve a different god', so to speak. Hasn't Leyton been locked away in the tower for many years, doing who knows what? I also like the idea of the Faith being corrupted, or being an offshoot of the Church of Starry Wisdom. They do, after all, worship a seven pointed Star.

[Mithras]

Palantirs are dark, smooth spheres produced by an ancient civilization whose skills were greater than even Sauron and Saruman. Neither of them could create Palantirs nor force the stones to show false images.

Glass candles are made from obsidian and operate very similar to the Palantirs. It is not known who invented the glass candles but I think the Valyrians neither invented nor produced them. The glass candles are more likely to be tools of shadowbinding, which is primarily an Asshai’i thing than Valyrian. I think the existing glass candles should be the relics of that pre-LN Asshai civilization.

Perhaps that is how the Valyrians came to learn the lore of the lost Asshai civilization. I think it is possible that the glass candles were the weirwoods of the Asshai civilization. The Asshai’i observed distant places with glass candles and probably stored their memories, spells, songs, histories etc. in them. They might have even used them to dominate the minds of beasts.

So, my theory is that some Valyrians cracked the code of those strange stones they found and followed the footsteps of the lost Asshai civilization including the cataclysmic demise.

[MaesterSam]

I've got TWOIAF out right now, and I think much of this alludes to the idea that pre-Dawn age, there was a meteor shower of a dark composite. The material of which it is made out of has extremely unique abilities when forged or used as building material.

Thinking Pre-Dawn and even more ancient, the world was not partitioned off by the Five Forts or Wall. The step stones connected the continents as well. You have similar sounding races in northern Essos forests to the children, mirroring tales of long nights in Yi Ti.

Far easterners say man came originally from the edge of the Jade Sea. Something that specifically is said Maesters don't adhere to. There are said to be soaring men and crazy creatures beyond the forts in the unknown east and grey waste.

Another idea that is interestingly presented is the Iron Born coming from the west. Further east on the north end, no ship is capable of continuing from what it seems somewhere after the thousand isles and from those tales are where ice dragon tales are said to have come from.

Drawing this all out, I think an interesting notion is that the races used to all share the lands. A meteor shower brought a material men, hybrid men, and a select magical creatures could benefit from whereas the rest not so much. Or maybe it fugged up what is the unknown world and made it unlivable for men and company. Either way, they then established a civilization and blocked the other magical creatures out. Certain parts of this way early time arrived in western Westeros (IIs, Oldtown), and the bulk of them settled in Yeen and Asshai.

So, I'll throw out the idea that the construction of the eastern wall initially screwed up the seasons and in essence helped to block out whites, ice dragons, giant eagles, etc.

So in the unknown areas, a lot of the barred off creatures decide to go in the other direction south east beyond the grey waste until they arrive in the Lands of Always Winter. A more recent civilization constructs the wall using magic as well. Even though it's not black stone, it double fucked up the seasons.

Long story short: I agree with the OP...the oily stone material was from the civilization that first barred off the known world from the "other" creatures, royally screwing up the seasons. Age of Heroes men did it again with the wall.

I'm not sure I"m convinced about the Wall or Five Forts being the cause of the strange seasons- after all, they were both presumably built after the LN, to prevent a recurrence- so the seasons were already abnormal. Also, on a planet-wide scale, they are pretty tiny, and whatever amount of magic went into them is probably miniscule compared to what the ancients were working on, or even the goings-on in present day Asshai.

That being said, I LOVE the idea of the Grey Waste and the Lands of Always Winter being connected! It's entirely plausible, since as you mention there is no way for ships to confirm or deny this. And it would mean that the Five Forts and the Wall are defending men from the same threat, which would be oh-so awesome.

Palantirs are dark, smooth spheres produced by an ancient civilization whose skills were greater than even Sauron and Saruman. Neither of them could create Palantirs nor force the stones to show false images.

Glass candles are made from obsidian and operate very similar to the Palantirs. It is not known who invented the glass candles but I think the Valyrians neither invented nor produced them. The glass candles are more likely to be tools of shadowbinding, which is primarily an Asshai’i thing than Valyrian. I think the existing glass candles should be the relics of that pre-LN Asshai civilization.

Perhaps that is how the Valyrians came to learn the lore of the lost Asshai civilization. I think it is possible that the glass candles were the weirwoods of the Asshai civilization. The Asshai’i observed distant places with glass candles and probably stored their memories, spells, songs, histories etc. in them. They might have even used them to dominate the minds of beasts.

So, my theory is that some Valyrians cracked the code of those strange stones they found and followed the footsteps of the lost Asshai civilization including the cataclysmic demise.

Very cool theory, especially the glass candles serving as the weirwoods of Asshai. And being the source of Valyrian knowledge regarding magic. Similarly, westerosi legends such as Bran the Builder could have learned their skills from a former civilization as well, via the weirwoods. Such repositories of knowledge could indeed explain a lot of the seemingly exaggerated accounts of figures such as Garth the Green, who are credited with abilities that men don't normally have. But with access to the lost knowledge of the ancients, who knows what is possible?

I also like the suggestion that they followed in the ancients' footsteps all the way, including their own destruction. Which perhaps suggests that it was also quite a sudden event, otherwise the valyrians might have come across records that warned them not to take things too far.

[barristan-b]

I'm not sure I"m convinced about the Wall or Five Forts being the cause of the strange seasons- after all, they were both presumably built after the LN, to prevent a recurrence- so the seasons were already abnormal. Also, on a planet-wide scale, they are pretty tiny, and whatever amount of magic went into them is probably miniscule compared to what the ancients were working on, or even the goings-on in present day Asshai.

That being said, I LOVE the idea of the Grey Waste and the Lands of Always Winter being connected! It's entirely plausible, since as you mention there is no way for ships to confirm or deny this. And it would mean that the Five Forts and the Wall are defending men from the same threat, which would be oh-so awesome.

--(MS's Quote)--

Very cool theory, especially the glass candles serving as the weirwoods of Asshai. And being the source of Valyrian knowledge regarding magic. Similarly, westerosi legends such as Bran the Builder could have learned their skills from a former civilization as well, via the weirwoods. Such repositories of knowledge could indeed explain a lot of the seemingly exaggerated accounts of figures such as Garth the Green, who are credited with abilities that men don't normally have. But with access to the lost knowledge of the ancients, who knows what is possible?

I also like the suggestion that they followed in the ancients' footsteps all the way, including their own destruction. Which perhaps suggests that it was also quite a sudden event, otherwise the valyrians might have come across records that warned them not to take things too far.

I also love that glass candle-weirwood correlation. They pretty much do the same thing and considering Mel noticed Bran/BR, I think they tap into the same shared magical plane. And I agree they go further back than the Freehold.

Oh and I was thinking about the Fort+Wall being the cause of the seasonal craziness because they prevent other species and vegetation through magic to grow/give access to half the planet. I was viewing them as necessary hinderances for the stability of man. I'm not really holding a firm stance on it but it's interesting to consider that it's not a catastrophe (I.E. meteor, moon collision, volcanoes, etc.) but the existence of these massive magical structures that create the imbalance. Now that I think of it, I don't really suscribe to the idea but it's a fun train of thought to consider.

As in that other thread, I'm on this idea that the Golden Empire's dissipation and struggle around the Long Night is what really started things for Westeros, spurred religions, myths, and most importantly introduced shadow magic to the planet.

[aryagonnakill#2]

^Mel doesn't have a glass candle.

[barristan-b]

^Mel doesn't have a glass candle.

I know. I'm more suggesting the whole prophetic realm is a shared one regardless of the way they're tapping in. Quaithe, Marwyn, Mel, BR, Bran, Dany, the whole shebang.

[MaesterSam]

I also love that glass candle-weirwood correlation. They pretty much do the same thing and considering Mel noticed Bran/BR, I think they tap into the same shared magical plane. And I agree they go further back than the Freehold.

Oh and I was thinking about the Fort+Wall being the cause of the seasonal craziness because they prevent other species and vegetation through magic to grow/give access to half the planet. I was viewing them as necessary hinderances for the stability of man. I'm not really holding a firm stance on it but it's interesting to consider that it's not a catastrophe (I.E. meteor, moon collision, volcanoes, etc.) but the existence of these massive magical structures that create the imbalance. Now that I think of it, I don't really suscribe to the idea but it's a fun train of thought to consider.

As in that other thread, I'm on this idea that the Golden Empire's dissipation and struggle around the Long Night is what really started things for Westeros, spurred religions, myths, and most importantly introduced shadow magic to the planet.

I think GRRM has explicitly said that the irregular seasons have a magical cause, rather than a physical one. So I agree with you that it probably wasn't a natural disaster that disturbed the balance of the seasons.

If the black stone is involved, it's likely not the stone itself but what people did with it that caused problems, IMO. Which could include building the Five Forts (and the Wall, even if it's not of black stone- though who knows what's under all that ice), but I suspect that a huge magical city like Asshai, and the things that happened there, had a part as well. If I had to guess, I would say that whatever wiped out this ancient race (or dispersed it, as you suggest, which I actually really like) also threw the seasons out of balance. Because it had to have been a Big Event. Much bigger than the building of a structure, and much bigger even than the Doom of Valyria, since it apparently was planet-wide.

[Ulthosian Stark]

Ahhhh this just tripped me out

Saw the one poster say Mel doesn't have a glass candle.

Well what if she does, but she doesn't know it is what it is and refers to it as some sort of a part of a whole larger powerful stone.

Like the actual Bloodstone worshipped by the Bloodstone Emperor! If he was corrupted by it where did it go? Maybe the place where everything drinks sunlight there's no children people walk around masked and practice dark arts openly etc etc

Because you gotta think, if Dawns material came from the sky, and so did this Bloodstone and the whole concept of balance within the series, wouldn't something equally as "evil" have to fall somewhere else?

Could be why only glass candle pieces have power like they do, or they were dipped in the molten Bloodstone, like a candle gets dipped and molded.

If the Bloodstone is R'hollor itself..... The whole you can't have shadow without light thing might be true, and its been trying to work its way towards Westeros all this time, just as Dawn was passed down...

AH HA!! The series is the prequel to the Dark Crystal!!!! The Skexies and Old Ones combine to create ice-like but beautiful beings!!! Sjjdjxhdjedn *aneurism*

Jk

[Mithras]

Mel seems like a slave controlled by her ruby collar and she does not know it.