[WoIaF Spoilers] Oily Stone: Yeen, Asshai, The Wall, 5 Forts, Hinges of the World

[Falcon2908]

I wonder if the drowned god and the deep ones have a connection.

[Ramsay Gimp]

I wonder if the drowned god and the deep ones have a connection.

 

Maester Theron thought so

[Ramsay Gimp]

I've always liked the theory that Asshai is the original birthplace of dragons, and was once an empire with unparalleled magical abilities. This would explain why the city is a "hinge of the world" like the wall, its relations with fire magic (Melisandre and dragons), and its importance in the overall narrative. I also like the idea that the Long Night was triggered in Asshai, either by accident through their magical tinkering or as a reaction by outsiders to the creation of dragons. 

 

But if that theory was true then it would make more sense for the city to be made of fused black stone, not the oily stuff

[LmL]

I've always liked the theory that Asshai is the original birthplace of dragons, and was once an empire with unparalleled magical abilities. This would explain why the city is a "hinge of the world" like the wall, its relations with fire magic (Melisandre and dragons), and its importance in the overall narrative. I also like the idea that the Long Night was triggered in Asshai, either by accident through their magical tinkering or as a reaction by outsiders to the creation of dragons. 

 

But if that theory was true then it would make more sense for the city to be made of fused black stone, not the oily stuff

 

I think there can be overlap. Check out the scene where Quentyn gets roasted - the bricks have been scorched by dragonfire, and they "drink the light" just like the black stone of Asshai. It's not greasy - I think the greasiness is from blood sacrifice - but dragon flame can create the sun-driunking aspect. I think the greasy stone is burnt, but has an extra element of dark sorcery & blood magic. Something like that. I theorized about that in the 'Black Hole Moon' essay in my sig if you are curious. 

[Ramsay Gimp]

 

I think there can be overlap. Check out the scene where Quentyn gets roasted - the bricks have been scorched by dragonfire, and they "drink the light" just like the black stone of Asshai. It's not greasy - I think the greasiness is from blood sacrifice - but dragon flame can create the sun-driunking aspect. I think the greasy stone is burnt, but has an extra element of dark sorcery & blood magic. Something like that. I theorized about that in the 'Black Hole Moon' essay in my sig if you are curious. 

 

Awesome, that helps solve the discrepancy. 

[Lordsteve666]

I think by drinks the light it means something like a material that offers no reflections, maybe a black body or something similar. Basically this stuff is so messed up it sucks in light and possibly even life itself, hence why the place is poisoned.

I think it's either not of this world or perhaps a native material modified by being infused with magic/life forces/souls etc. I've always imagined Assai as a place so soaked in out of control magic by the cataclysm that caused the long night that now even it's very bones are tainted.
I imagine living there long term is not good for your health or wellbeing.

[LmL]

I think by drinks the light it means something like a material that offers no reflections, maybe a black body or something similar. Basically this stuff is so messed up it sucks in light and possibly even life itself, hence why the place is poisoned.

I think it's either not of this world or perhaps a native material modified by being infused with magic/life forces/souls etc. I've always imagined Assai as a place so soaked in out of control magic by the cataclysm that caused the long night that now even it's very bones are tainted.
I imagine living there long term is not good for your health or wellbeing.

That's all more of less my thinking as well. :)

[Free Northman Reborn]

Someone recently referred to Martin's previous series Tuff Voyaging in another thread. I've never paid attention to his non ASOIAF works before, but went to the Wikipedia page on the Tuff series. And I was amazed at its major storyline.

 

Basically, from what I could gather from the overview, it is all about some space trader who finds a bio-engineering Seed ship and travels from planet to planet making various bio-engineering adaptations to native species on various worlds. He does so for a variety of reasons, from combatting sea monsters that threaten the land based species on one planet, to breeding some type of cat-hybrid fighting pit monsters for the noble families of another planet, who measure their prestige by who has the most fearsome fighting pit creature, to other reasons like combatting a star that periodically brings a plague to a certain world every certain number of years (sound similar to periodic abnormal seasons to anyone?)

 

The point is, we have seen ample evidence of ancient bio-engineering on Planetos. The World Book is rife with it. From hybrid men in Sothoryos, to hybrid creatures from the Sea threatening the Mazemakers of Lorath, to hybrid Deep Ones creating the Black Stone monuments, to the most important of all - hybrid wyverns and firewyrms creating dragons.

 

In one of the Tuff stories - I think the one where they breed hybrid cat monsters for noble houses' fighting pits - the monsters eventually become so powerful that they wipe out prey animals on the planet, thus leading to their own extinction. Again, this is quite similar to the idea that Dragons soon became the dominant species of Planetos, to the point where the Long Night was needed to wipe out their prey animals thus leading most dragons to starve to death.

 

In any case, to me the evidence is overwhelming that Planetos's prehistory is based on rampant bio-engineering gone mad, to the point that it led to some type of catastrophe. Maybe the Long Night was needed to wipe out all the unnatural creatures borne from the competing bio-engineering arms races of the elder civilizations. And the only creatures that seem interested in preserving nature's balance, are the Children of the Forest - who may well have had a hand in causing the Long Night to counter the mad bio-magic of the Asshai'i, Deep Ones and other elder races.

 

To me, Martin may have replaced bio-technology with bio-magic, but the result was the same. An out of control process of tampering with nature, creating monstrous hybrid species and tipping the natural balance to the point of needing some kind of Long Night to set it right again.

[winterfellbeyondthewall]

To me, Martin may have replaced bio-technology with bio-magic, but the result was the same. An out of control process of tampering with nature, creating monstrous hybrid species and tipping the natural balance to the point of needing some kind of Long Night to set it right again.

I really enjoy this idea. The similarity between those two components are really obvious and convincing as well

[Lordsteve666]

FNR that's a really cool idea and I've never seen a theory like that put forward.

There's definitely a feeling of some sort of advanced race being at work at some point in the distant past on Planetos, whether it's with advanced bio-engineering or magical power of some sort.
They've left relics of their power behind in the form of oily black stone, fused stone possibly?, and also dragons as well. Plus I strongly suspect the Long Night and the messed up seasons might be their doing as well, even if only in so much as their power got into the wrong hands.

[thupple]

It's been a long time since I read Tuf (great stories btw).  I had forgotten that his profession was bio-engineering. 

 

When you add that revelation to GRRM's Lovecraftian references in the World book, there is definitely a resonance with aSoIaF's theme of something alien and inimical threatening the natural order of life on Planetos. 

 

I have felt for some time that the gods R'hollor and the Great Other are alien to the planet, whether they are supernatural or extraterrestrial in origin. And just like the smallfolk vs the lords, the planet and its natives suffer when the gods play their "game of thrones".

 

I feel like the Others and their Long Night (and the long seasons in general) and the Valyrians/Dragons are both bad for Planetos, and are both supernatural/extraterrestrial opposing forces. Perhaps the Deep Ones were there first, and did breeding experiments with humans and animals, creating all kinds of monsters and havoc and poisoning the lands and seas in the process. Perhaps then some Deep Ones (or their descendants) created the dragons, and then the Valyrian race itself by breeding men with dragons. So the Ice vs Fire is then kind of a family squabble of epic proportions. 

 

It's all so fun to think about.

[Free Northman Reborn]

It's been a long time since I read Tuf (great stories btw).  I had forgotten that his profession was bio-engineering. 

 

When you add that revelation to GRRM's Lovecraftian references in the World book, there is definitely a resonance with aSoIaF's theme of something alien and inimical threatening the natural order of life on Planetos. 

 

I have felt for some time that the gods R'hollor and the Great Other are alien to the planet, whether they are supernatural or extraterrestrial in origin. And just like the smallfolk vs the lords, the planet and its natives suffer when the gods play their "game of thrones".

 

I feel like the Others and their Long Night (and the long seasons in general) and the Valyrians/Dragons are both bad for Planetos, and are both supernatural/extraterrestrial opposing forces. Perhaps the Deep Ones were there first, and did breeding experiments with humans and animals, creating all kinds of monsters and havoc and poisoning the lands and seas in the process. Perhaps then some Deep Ones (or their descendants) created the dragons, and then the Valyrian race itself by breeding men with dragons. So the Ice vs Fire is then kind of a family squabble of epic proportions. 

 

It's all so fun to think about.

 

I think this is very close to the truth.

[LmL]

Hooray for the last few comments!

 

That greasy black stone is alien, I believe - those are moon meteors from the destroyed second moon, and they are bad news. 

 

I totally agree with the premise of examine Martin's older works for clues about ASOIAF backstory. The magical hybrid species thing is undeniable when you start looking for it - the signs are everywhere. I've wondered if it wasn't the children of the forest who seeded all the races to begin with - perhaps they fed weirwood pasts to the smart apes on Leng and bred hairy men, and eventually humans. Who knows. I do happen to think that the dragon rider bond is a version of the skinchanger bond and relates back to greenseer magic, myself. 

 

I think the oily black stone - the moon meteors, according to my hypothesis - are a key element to creating unlife, such as the others, the undying, the wights or various kinds, etc.  The Bloodstone Emperor used his black stone to practice necromancy and other dark forms of magic - I think that's the deal with the black stone. It might have been the thing that enabled all these undead and undying entities that we see. 

[Lordsteve666]

The Bloodstone Emperor used his black stone to practice necromancy and other dark forms of magic - I think that's the deal with the black stone. It might have been the thing that enabled all these undead and undying entities that we see. 

 

My thinking exactly, but I think it offers much more than the power to raise the dead.

 

The oily stone possesses some power than draws people to it. It drew in the Bloodstone Emperor and he turned bad pretty quick. Blood magic and human sacrifice, sound like necromancy to me. But i suspect it offered more than just that. Immortality, domination over lesser minds, control over fire and ice, power to create life and destroy it.

 

Think of it like the ultimate LOTR One Ring combined with Marvel's Infinity Gems to be a knowledge/power source that could potentially give you power beyond any human knowledge.

I think those "Old Ones, Deep Ones or Elder Gods or whatever were beyond human reckoning and the Bloodstone Emperor though he could master their power.

 

I reckon he wanted the power to become immortal or to raise some sort of immortal empire that would never die. He got more than he bargained for and unfortunately the rest of Planetos suffered as a result and still does to this day.

[LmL]

Yes, I think the quest for immortality is what we are talking about here, which is the common link I was trying to draw between the GEotD emperors, the Others, the wights of ice and fire, the shadowbinders, the Undying, and perhaps renegade greenseers / body snatchers / etc. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

Interesting. In one of the Tuff books sea monsters attack the land based inhabitants of the planet Namor. Eventually the sea monsters evolve the ability to move onto land and attack people there. Tuff then creates bio-engineered creatures to fight these sea monsters.

Eventually it turns out that the sea monsters are being sent by a race of sentient sea-bottom dwellers who are linked into a kind of hive mind and are able to bio engineer monsters as weapons against the land dwellers.

Now does that not sound very similar to the so called Deep Ones and the hybrid creatures they sent to wipe out the Mazemakers of Lorath and perhaps other ancient civilizations?

And the hive mind idea makes one ponder whether the Deep Ones may be an underwater equivalent of the Children of the Forest.

And we then hear that dragons are artificial creatures made from combining firewyrms and wyverns, and that they came from a second moon.

Well again, this sounds rather similar to Haviland Tuff using his Seed ship to create artificial creatures to help the natives fight the sea monsters.

[Ramsay Gimp]

If that's the case, then who triggered the Long Night? The Children, as a reaction to dragons (which were themselves a reaction to the Deep Ones)??

[LmL]

My guess is human greenseers abusing the magic the children taught them as opposed to cotf causing the Long Night / Hammer of the Waters. The cotf had lived in Westeros for a "thousand thousand of your man years," but only after the First Men arrive do Others show up and the Long Night falls. That says to me that it was man getting his hands on powerful magic that screwed everything up. Since this is kind of Westeros' Garden of Eden story - the fall from grace - it ought to be humans who are responsible.

I suspect the sacred order of green men have something to do with this - they are some kind of green skinned and or horned human beings, which sounds a lot like Garth the Green, who very much fits the real world "horned god" archetype.

Then on the other side of the world we have Azor Ahai and the Bloodstone Emperor, whom I believe were the same person. The Bloodstone Emperor supposedly caused the Lon Night through his evil deeds - so again we have the idea that human wizards caused the Long Night to happen.

How do wizards make a comet collide with a moon (speaking of my own theory), or more generally, how do wizards get the sun to hide its face at all? That's a damn good question. One which I hope to eventually be able to answer. :)

[winterfellbeyondthewall]

Has anyone ever thought that maybe it isn't black stone but maybe Obsidian? I mean it was found on DS as well in big chunks and boulders, and people were said to be mining it. 

So maybe at least some of these buildings are made out of Obsidian? Doesn't it share similar traits to the oily stones? 

 

Sorry for for bringing this thread up again, btw, I keep pondering on it though I just love it! 

[Lordsteve666]

Has anyone ever thought that maybe it isn't black stone but maybe Obsidian? I mean it was found on DS as well in big chunks and boulders, and people were said to be mining it. 

So maybe at least some of these buildings are made out of Obsidian? Doesn't it share similar traits to the oily stones? 

 

Sorry for for bringing this thread up again, btw, I keep pondering on it though I just love it! 

I'm not so sure.

Obsidian or Dragonglass is well known (at least to learned people e.g. Maesters) in Westeros an in Essos and it is known to come from Dragonstone and the like.

Whatever Assai is made from seems to be intentionally described as something different. I mean Maesters that have studied the world are not going to make up some mystery about the stuff if it's just normal volcanic glass which is quite common and they are well aware of existing.

I think oily black stone is definitely something different and I don't think anyone really understands what it is.