[WoIaF Spoilers] Oily Stone: Yeen, Asshai, The Wall, 5 Forts, Hinges of the World

[LmL]

1 hour ago, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

PS I think it's also worth noting that Harrenhall was built with a large amount of weirwood used as beams. And it has a very evil reputation, said to be haunted (like Yeen) and outsized proportions reminiscent of Asshai.

This may speak to weirwood having the ability to become darker and Shade-like in nature after being cut and used for building.

Harrenhall is a symbol of the corrupted, blackened, and destroyed second moon.  The burning hand is an important symbol - it's the fiery hand of R'hllor, whose fingers are like fiery spears as we saw in the "Benerro pantomimes the Mythical Astronomy theory" scene. Harrnehall is a black hand that claws at the sky or reaches for the sky or some such. It was burnt by dragon fire, as the moon was burnt by comet fire.  The result is black stone, and horror. Black Harren was of the line of the "black blood," of course, fitting in with all the times black blood has indicated fire transformation. The black stone fist fortress of Harrenhall sits next to the God's Eye, because the celestial God's Eye is where this whole thing went down.  For those who may not know what I mean by "celestial God's Eye," look at my avatar and see it as a black moon superimposed over the sun, creating a black pupil to the sun's fiery eye. That's the God's Eye, with the Isle of Faces and the black moon being equivalent (trees and meteors equivalency, once again). 

Basically, in any Lightbringer forging metaphor, there is burning wood. It's part of the process. Again I think this is about fierygreenseers, but there could be more to it. The idea of Harren felling weirwoods to make his castle fits in perfectly - killing trees (creating undead greenseers) was a definite part of the process. But you could certainly interpret that as burning wood going into the actual metal of Lightbringer, the sword forged from moon meteors. Typically, to heat a forge hot enough to smith swords, you need to burn a lot of wood, so George seems to be taking boring natural processes and trumping them up with fantasy and magic. 

See what you think of all that, Blind Beth.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

55 minutes ago, LmL said:

snip-

See what you think of all that, Blind Beth.

I think there are different symbol sets in play in the story --gemstones/gold/silver; meteorite, stars, and moon stuff; weirwoods, Shade trees, warging/animal bonding and soul transference; mystical genetics; cloth; colors; food. Everything doesn't have to be a meteorite any more than everything has to be an eye or a gemstone.

I was trying to find a way for the Shade tree wood idea to work with the meteorite idea. But if you don't think Shade trees are important then on this topic we don't have a lot else to discuss.

Though I think it's odd that you dismiss them so easily, since they work perfectly with your idea of corrupted greenseers, and soul-drinking black weapons seem quite logically to have some connection to black wood with similar properties to weirwood. Perhaps ancient Ironborn weapons are to Shade wood as Dawn is to weirwood.

[LmL]

33 minutes ago, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

I think there are different symbol sets in play in the story --gemstones/gold/silver; meteorite, stars, and moon stuff; weirwoods, Shade trees, warging/animal bonding and soul transference; mystical genetics; cloth; colors; food. Everything doesn't have to be a meteorite any more than everything has to be an eye or a gemstone.

I was trying to find a way for the Shade tree wood idea to work with the meteorite idea. But if you don't think Shade trees are important then on this topic we don't have a lot else to discuss.

Though I think it's odd that you dismiss them so easily, since they work perfectly with your idea of corrupted greenseers, and soul-drinking black weapons seem quite logically to have some connection to black wood with similar properties to weirwood. Perhaps ancient Ironborn weapons are to Shade wood as Dawn is to weirwood.

Come on now! I didn't dismiss anything, let alone easily - I said several times that black wood was a part of the symbol set, and that I might not be interpreting the black wood correctly, and that I wasn't sure about it.  I am showing you the wood - meteor parallels in case you can make something of them that I am not seeing, and I'm explaining my logic so you catch any holes in it, which certainly may exist. I said I tend to think that shade trees are a proxy to tell us about something more central, but I also said I could be wrong about that. We have plenty to discuss. And even if the shade trees are a proxy, we still need to figure out what they mean. 

Statements like "everything doesn't have to be a meteorite" are condescending, and I really don't think I deserve that. You know that I have good reasons for everything that I assert. I showed you the meteor - tree parallels on the Iron Islands to try to help YOUR tentative hypothesis about Shade Trees being connected to greasy stone. I don't have an opinion on whether the are related, because it's a new idea and I don't dismiss new ideas out of hand... but you proposed it, and so I was just feeding you information that could possibly work in favor of that idea. 

Why are you getting all stinky and trying to shut the conversation down? I was trying to help your idea. 

Quote

Perhaps ancient Ironborn weapons are to Shade wood as Dawn is to weirwood.

That's entirely possible. I suggested as much in my response:

Quote

But you could certainly interpret that as burning wood going into the actual metal of Lightbringer, the sword forged from moon meteors.

I also said:

Quote

It's always a trick to figure out if something - like the Warlock trees - are themselves important, or if they are really just telling us about something more important.

Far from dismissing anything, I've repeatedly acknowledged that my interpretations could be wrong or incomplete, and that it's very tricky to hash out which thing is ultimately the thing the symbols are referring to. I'm actually being the opposite of dismissive - I'm entertaining the idea and trying to look for anything in my own research which could work in favor it it. 

[hiemal]

If the OBS is, as it seems to be, at least partially celestial in origin (or if it comes from someplace even more remote and strange than outer space) and it came to the surface in the form of meteor, comet, or bits of shattered moon raining down as many meteorites and not, as I half-suspect through some much less mundane method of delivery, it seems reasonable to suppose that the dust that impact or impacts kicked up could be mixed with alien matter to settle elsewhere to taint the soil, producing shade-of-the-evening and possibly even leeching into the very stones of the earth to transform them into the sinister substance we see described.

I like the idea of a drowned forest being the heart of the Drowned God with merlings sporting among bare and stony trunks in the black abyss. Creepy.

[LmL]

29 minutes ago, hiemal said:

If the OBS is, as it seems to be, at least partially celestial in origin (or if it comes from someplace even more remote and strange than outer space) and it came to the surface in the form of meteor, comet, or bits of shattered moon raining down as many meteorites and not, as I half-suspect through some much less mundane method of delivery, it seems reasonable to suppose that the dust that impact or impacts kicked up could be mixed with alien matter to settle elsewhere to taint the soil, producing shade-of-the-evening and possibly even leeching into the very stones of the earth to transform them into the sinister substance we see described.

I like the idea of a drowned forest being the heart of the Drowned God with merlings sporting among bare and stony trunks in the black abyss. Creepy.

Yeah it sounds like one of Euron's shade of the evening induced visions... after he's gone as mad as Patchface. Maybe we'll hear a new Patchface freestyle in the next book, and it be all "under the sea, the seaweed is black and blue" or some shit.

[LordImp]

Leyton Hightower will raise an army from the sea  or something like that. Is this foreshadowing of a army coming from the sea? I wont be surprised if Aeron raises a army from the sea to stop Euron. GRRM said that Aeron will do some creepy stuff in Winds. 

[hiemal]

13 hours ago, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

PS I think it's also worth noting that Harrenhall was built with a large amount of weirwood used as beams. And it has a very evil reputation, said to be haunted (like Yeen) and outsized proportions reminiscent of Asshai.

This may speak to weirwood having the ability to become darker and Shade-like in nature after being cut and used for building.

I wonder if shade-of-the-evening could be OBS-corrupted weirwood and their distilled sap?

The Drowned God could be a ring of weirwoods (and thus a portion of the weirnet) that was subject to OBS influence before being sunk- perhaps in the very calamity that delivered the alien matter.

[hiemal]

8 hours ago, LmL said:

Yeah it sounds like one of Euron's shade of the evening induced visions... after he's gone as mad as Patchface. Maybe we'll hear a new Patchface freestyle in the next book, and it be all "under the sea, the seaweed is black and blue" or some shit.

Under the sea the trees are black, I know I know I know-oh!

The shadows are blue and they dance! They dance, they dance-oh! Oh oh oh!

 

[LmL]

4 hours ago, LordImp said:

Leyton Hightower will raise an army from the sea  or something like that. Is this foreshadowing of a army coming from the sea? I wont be surprised if Aeron raises a army from the sea to stop Euron. GRRM said that Aeron will do some creepy stuff in Winds. 

Oh did he now? That's interesting, hadn't heard that. I'm excited now.

[hiemal]

Spitball:

The Drowned God is a Drowned Grove (of corrupted weirwoods), but one that is not, in fact, bare. It continues to produce the driftwood for the clubs that Aeron's followers are arming themselves with and the wood from which each King of Salt and Rock crafts his own Driftwood Crown- which name would be a misnomer as it seems likely that merlings or some other agent of the DG would place it where the king (and now The Damphair's zealots) would find it rather than fate or the currents.

 

[LmL]

29 minutes ago, hiemal said:

Spitball:

The Drowned God is a Drowned Grove (of corrupted weirwoods), but one that is not, in fact, bare. It continues to produce the driftwood for the clubs that Aeron's followers are arming themselves with and the wood from which each King of Salt and Rock crafts his own Driftwood Crown- which name would be a misnomer as it seems likely that merlings or some other agent of the DG would place it where the king (and now The Damphair's zealots) would find it rather than fate or the currents.

 

Ok I have to ask off the ride now. You're starting to sound serious. =P

The Deep Ones basically sit right on the border, if not just beyond, the level of wacky magicalness that I think George is going to put in the last two (or three) books. I definitely don't think we'll be seeing anything quite like an underwater grove of Shade of the Evening trees. I could be wrong, but... I dunno. Seems like that would take most people off-guard.

[hiemal]

22 minutes ago, LmL said:

Ok I have to ask off the ride now. You're starting to sound serious. =P

The Deep Ones basically sit right on the border, if not just beyond, the level of wacky magicalness that I think George is going to put in the last two (or three) books. I definitely don't think we'll be seeing anything quite like an underwater grove of Shade of the Evening trees. I could be wrong, but... I dunno. Seems like that would take most people off-guard.

Maybe I can be the Archmaester of Tinfoil before this is all through, but my spidey sense is tingling on this one. It intrigues me. We'll just have to wait and hope GRRM gives us enough by the time the dust settles to answer all these questions...

[LordImp]

5 hours ago, LmL said:

Oh did he now? That's interesting, hadn't heard that. I'm excited now.

"To be sure. Lord Leyton's locked atop his tower with the Mad Maid, consulting books of spells. Might be he'll raise an army from the deeps. Or not. Baelor's building galleys, Gunthor has charge of the harbor, Garth is training new recruits, and Humfrey's gone to Lys to hire sellsails. If he can winkle a proper fleet out of his whore of a sister, we can start paying back the ironmen with some of their own coin. Till then, the best we can do is guard the sound and wait for the bitch queen in King's Landing to let Lord Paxter off his leash."

 

Probably nothing but , maybe a little hint? 

[hiemal]

If the Hightowers are, as I suspect, involved with Starry Wisdom then an army from the deep isn't out of the question- but it does beg different ones:

Is there more than one undersea power? Are the Hightowers trying to fight the DG with its own army? Is the DG local to the Iron Isles?

[LmL]

6 hours ago, LordImp said:

"To be sure. Lord Leyton's locked atop his tower with the Mad Maid, consulting books of spells. Might be he'll raise an army from the deeps. Or not. Baelor's building galleys, Gunthor has charge of the harbor, Garth is training new recruits, and Humfrey's gone to Lys to hire sellsails. If he can winkle a proper fleet out of his whore of a sister, we can start paying back the ironmen with some of their own coin. Till then, the best we can do is guard the sound and wait for the bitch queen in King's Landing to let Lord Paxter off his leash."

 

Probably nothing but , maybe a little hint? 

Oh yeah I'm familiar with that quote, I meant that I hadn't heard that SSM. You have the link anywhere? 

 

[LmL]

40 minutes ago, hiemal said:

If the Hightowers are, as I suspect, involved with Starry Wisdom then an army from the deep isn't out of the question- but it does beg different ones:

Is there more than one undersea power? Are the Hightowers trying to fight the DG with its own army? Is the DG local to the Iron Isles?

They certainly could be Starry Wisdom folks, those Hightowers. But they also might be anti-Starry Wisdom and Bloodstone E magic. Consider their apparent history of working against dragons, as in the Dance of the Dragons Targ civil war, and in regards to Marwyn's perception of the Citadel being anti-magic. We don't know how closely he Citadel aligns with he Hightower, but there's obviously a long relationship between the two. 

As for the army from the deeps thing, it shows a couple of ideas. One, people think armies can come from the deeps, period. It's an idea that is floating around enough to create tumors about it. Where does this idea or memory come from? On a basic level, it's one piece of evidence for the existence of Squishers / Deep Ones / Merlings / Selkies. It might also foreshadow that Martin will raise an army from the deeps somewhere, at some point, and the constant tidbits and tumors of aquatic humanoids and statements like this are meant to introduce the general idea so it doesn't come completely out of left field. 

Is there a connection between the Hightower and the Deep Ones? It's hard to know. I'm quite sure the aquatic humanoids do exist, but we don't know shit about them. Can they build anything? Can they carve stone? Quarry it, stack it up and build with it? Do they have magic? Sea dragons? Are they aligned with ANYONE on the land? 

We just have no fucking idea about any of that. Any of it is possible, but we haven't been given many clues about this. I think Biter is part Merling, but I haven't found any deeper clues around him other than the Merlings are mean as fuck and tend to run pretty large. 

[hiemal]

Here's hoping Winds will blow a PoV character into the Hightower so we can find some answers. I like both the idea of the Hightowers, and thus the Citadel, being an opposing force to Starry Wisdom and my own possible alternative that Starry Wisdom is not the sinister organization its name implies, but a forerunner of the Citadel itself before settling in Oldtown and dedicating themselves fully to all aspects of learning (rather than whatever astrological portents and observations originally consumed their time). That one's one of the many bees in my bonnet, centered around the lack of sophisticated navigation and my theory that SW is gathering data, not to know when the stars align for the arising of the Deep Ones but how to safely cross the open oceans.

Pretty tinfoil, I admit, and the Starry Wisdom/Lovecraft connection is hard to dismiss so the idea of opposition may well be the best theory- but with what tools do they offer that opposition, I wonder.

Biter as a merling hybrid. Not too shabby. If the inhabitants of the Thousand Islands (or whatever) in the Shivering Isles (the ones with the greenish skin and the women with the point-filed teeth) are merling/human hybrid, not unlikely since their kingdom was supposedly sunk in some ancient catastrophe, that would make a lot of sense. I like it.

[LordImp]

53 minutes ago, LmL said:

Oh yeah I'm familiar with that quote, I meant that I hadn't heard that SSM. You have the link anywhere? 

 

Sorry i cant find the quote. But im sure he said it once. In my mind it makes sense for Aeron to go very far in stopping Euron. Someone belive the creepy stuff is Aeron drowning Euron with piss , i certainly hope thats not gonna happen. 

[hiemal]

6 minutes ago, LordImp said:

Sorry i cant find the quote. But im sure he said it once. In my mind it makes sense for Aeron to go very far in stopping Euron. Someone belive the creepy stuff is Aeron drowning Euron with piss , i certainly hope thats not gonna happen. 

I do remember hearing that at some convention, GRRM offered the audience a choice between a Damphair chapter and an Arianne- saying the the Aeron chapter had some pretty twisted stuff in it- but the audience, driven momentarily insane by some unknown factor, chose Arianne.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

On 1/30/2016 at 9:15 PM, LordImp said:

Leyton Hightower will raise an army from the sea  or something like that. Is this foreshadowing of a army coming from the sea? I wont be surprised if Aeron raises a army from the sea to stop Euron. GRRM said that Aeron will do some creepy stuff in Winds. 

I feel like an army coming out of the sea is almost inevitable. There's been a lot of emphasis on Ironborn needing to go to the watery halls after death, and rising again. Drowned God has been collecting corpses for centuries, maybe millennia. If it gets enough power to reanimate them and send them against the Greenlanders...I mean yikes. And it seems like Aeron is well positioned and well-motivated to bring more power to the DG.

On 1/30/2016 at 0:38 AM, hiemal said:

I wonder if shade-of-the-evening could be OBS-corrupted weirwood and their distilled sap?

The Drowned God could be a ring of weirwoods (and thus a portion of the weirnet) that was subject to OBS influence before being sunk- perhaps in the very calamity that delivered the alien matter.

Possible. Definitely smacks of the sap of weirwood corrupted by some kind of dark magic.

Which came first, Shade trees or OBS?

On 1/30/2016 at 2:27 AM, hiemal said:

Spitball:

The Drowned God is a Drowned Grove (of corrupted weirwoods), but one that is not, in fact, bare. It continues to produce the driftwood for the clubs that Aeron's followers are arming themselves with and the wood from which each King of Salt and Rock crafts his own Driftwood Crown- which name would be a misnomer as it seems likely that merlings or some other agent of the DG would place it where the king (and now The Damphair's zealots) would find it rather than fate or the currents.

 

I like this. Maybe not all of the cudgels--probably many of them are just driftwood--but almost definitely the "driftwood" crowns.

We see from Jaime's weirwood stump dream that ww's can affect the mind by being up against the head. Long-term effects of dark-ww crown would surely be significant.

Damphair seems to get instruction from the DG through the ocean water itself. We have the example from Mirri Maz Duur's spell with Drogo that water facilitates magic. Perhaps just being in the sea and "listening" for the Drowned God's "voice" --either by a priest or a king elect--is enough to provide DG's guidance on which driftwood to choose for a crown. If not then having a nice long sit on the Seastone Chair might do the trick.