[WoIaF Spoilers] Oily Stone: Yeen, Asshai, The Wall, 5 Forts, Hinges of the World

[LordImp]

16 minutes ago, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

I feel like an army coming out of the sea is almost inevitable. There's been a lot of emphasis on Ironborn needing to go to the watery halls after death, and rising again. Drowned God has been collecting corpses for centuries, maybe millennia. If it gets enough power to reanimate them and send them against the Greenlanders...I mean yikes. And it seems like Aeron is well positioned and well-motivated to bring more power to the DG.

Possible. Definitely smacks of the sap of weirwood corrupted by some kind of dark magic.

Which came first, Shade trees or OBS?

I like this. Maybe not all of the cudgels--probably many of them are just driftwood--but almost definitely the "driftwood" crowns.

We see from Jaime's weirwood stump dream that ww's can affect the mind by being up against the head. Long-term effects of dark-ww crown would surely be significant.

Damphair seems to get instruction from the DG through the ocean water itself. We have the example from Mirri Maz Duur's spell with Drogo that water facilitates magic. Perhaps just being in the sea and "listening" for the Drowned God's "voice" --either by a priest or a king elect--is enough to provide DG's guidance on which driftwood to choose for a crown. If not then having a nice long sit on the Seastone Chair might do the trick.

Im starting to think Aeron will summon drowned men from the deep.  Wights coming from the sea. I don't think we will see the deep ones , but Wights from the sea and a kraken . Maybe these Wights will be like Davy Jones crew from pirates of the carribean.  

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

1 hour ago, LordImp said:

 Maybe these Wights will be like Davy Jones crew from pirates of the carribean.  

I want this so bad, I'm dying, lol.

[NimbleDickCrabb66]

The mazemakers of Lorath have a lot going on. On the westeros wiki it mentions that a precise date of when valyrian members of the cult of Boash (the blind god) recolonized the acient mazes of lorath. Something like 1400 years before Aegon's conquest, its odd that we have an exact date.

It could be possible that these mazes are actually underground passages that deep ones (who may have had some human characteristics they developed that allowed them to walk on land) used to access the land. Blind god and the faceless god have some similarities, and the fact that arya meets a supposed Lorathi who turns out to be a faceless men seems un-coincidental.

 

There seems to be some different accounts of how the mazemakers met their end. Apparently there was a scouring of lorath, by valyrians due to an Qarlon attempting to conquer norvos. The scouring certainly sounds like an complete demise of the maze makers, but then there is also some info. about the mazemakers meeting their end due to something from underwater. Sounds like there might have been some link to the mazes in Lorath to the deep ones or this under water species.

 

It goes on to say that the preists of lorath (after the scouring) were eventually corrupted and overthrown by their inhabitants. This made me think of a few things.

1. Valyrians branched off to worship the blind god Boash - perhaps due to some hidden knowledge/power garnered from the mazes. This lends to the idea that valyrians branched off and could attribute to the similar yet different black stones we are seeing. One faction has fused stone, one faction has cruder carved stone with joints. Similar magics, similar stones, yet different in some way.

2. Lorath is VERY close to bravos, where the faceless men are based out of. The faceless men harness some very powerful magic, and I beleive that faceless men are immortal, possibly just moving one consicensness from one face/body to another.

3. I dont think the base of the HighTower is fused stone, which makes it closer to the mazemakers hewn stone mazes. What if these mazes are underground passageways used by some form of deep one? It would make a lot of sense. In a world that has no sun, the underground/underwater spaces would be warmer and easier to survive in (especially if you have a set of gills). I also like the idea that these mazes could be the resting place for some great being that could be potentially reborn through magic.

 

This isnt too organized, but I read through this whole thread and I dont beleive all of the above has been mentioned. I really hope we get some good reveals this season about the hightower (and that the show doesnt deviant from what will come in the books on this!).

 

Really enjoyed reading this thread and the mystery of these stones is fantastic!

 

 

 

[Ser Lepus]

On 1/2/2016 at 10:13 PM, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

I feel like an army coming out of the sea is almost inevitable. There's been a lot of emphasis on Ironborn needing to go to the watery halls after death, and rising again. Drowned God has been collecting corpses for centuries, maybe millennia. If it gets enough power to reanimate them and send them against the Greenlanders...I mean yikes. And it seems like Aeron is well positioned and well-motivated to bring more power to the DG.

Possible. Definitely smacks of the sap of weirwood corrupted by some kind of dark magic.

Which came first, Shade trees or OBS?

I like this. Maybe not all of the cudgels--probably many of them are just driftwood--but almost definitely the "driftwood" crowns.

We see from Jaime's weirwood stump dream that ww's can affect the mind by being up against the head. Long-term effects of dark-ww crown would surely be significant.

Damphair seems to get instruction from the DG through the ocean water itself. We have the example from Mirri Maz Duur's spell with Drogo that water facilitates magic. Perhaps just being in the sea and "listening" for the Drowned God's "voice" --either by a priest or a king elect--is enough to provide DG's guidance on which driftwood to choose for a crown. If not then having a nice long sit on the Seastone Chair might do the trick.

As I said long ago:

Quote

Damphair and all the godly ironborn will welcome the sea wights with open arms, believing them to be the messengers of the Drowned God.

And then, the wights will shred them to pieces while they ask "Why?!".

Quote

Come on, the wights fit the religion of the Drowned God just too well, it can't be an accident. Either there is an ancient conection (the ironborn being descended from the Crasters from a remote past) or GRRM is planning to do what I said.

The Ironborn religion reminds me of those natives in the "Zombie Survival Guide" book who incorporated the zombies into their religion and thought than a zombie-infested island was the afterlife, so they send their dead and sick there.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

33 minutes ago, Ser Lepus said:

As I said long ago:

Great minds think alike. :-)

33 minutes ago, Ser Lepus said:

The Ironborn religion reminds me of those natives in the "Zombie Survival Guide" book who incorporated the zombies into their religion and thought than a zombie-infested island was the afterlife, so they send their dead and sick there.

I haven't read that book...good connection, though.

[Waters Gate]

Personally i think i know pretty sure know what this oily black stone and the labyrinths are for.

 

The Black oily stone structure's are tombs. Not just any tombs, picture them a bit like a cross between our typical grave and an ancient pyramid. They are huge so they are for someone important. They are black because grave's so often are. They have labyrinths because like with the pyramids the corpse wouldn't want to loose it's riches.

 

Asshai is a Tomb city. It is full of these huge black structure's. It has no native inhabitants. Animals die from drinking the water there. The river Styx runs trough it, and beyond that are the gates to the underworld itself, making Asshai a passageway to it. Adventure's come to Asshai, Shadowbinders. Cursed gold is the main export of Asshai, because the shadowbinders are likely reanimating the corpses so they can find a way trough the labyrinths.

 

What does it mean though?

 

 

[TheSovereignGrave]

 

3 hours ago, Waters Gate said:

Personally i think i know pretty sure know what this oily black stone and the labyrinths are for.

 

The Black oily stone structure's are tombs. Not just any tombs, picture them a bit like a cross between our typical grave and an ancient pyramid. They are huge so they are for someone important. They are black because grave's so often are. They have labyrinths because like with the pyramids the corpse wouldn't want to loose it's riches.

 

Asshai is a Tomb city. It is full of these huge black structure's. It has no native inhabitants. Animals die from drinking the water there. The river Styx runs trough it, and beyond that are the gates to the underworld itself, making Asshai a passageway to it. Adventure's come to Asshai, Shadowbinders. Cursed gold is the main export of Asshai, because the shadowbinders are likely reanimating the corpses so they can find a way trough the labyrinths.

 

What does it mean though?

 

 

I think the main issue with that, is that you don't have any solitary oily black stone structures. You either have a single item (the massive idol on the Isle of Toads and the Seastone Chair) or a city (Asshai and Yeen). The other (the Fiver Forts and the base of the Hightower) are just fused black stone, which may or may not even be connected. And the only labyrinths I can think of are the Hightower base (fused black stone) and the Mazes of Lorath (just regular old stone).

[Falcon2908]

Just wanna add this to the possibilities of drowned men:

Quote

“That’s true,” said Jojen. “Andals and ironmen, Freys and other fools, all those proud warriors who set out to conquer Greywater. Not one of them could find it. They ride into the Neck, but not back out. And sooner or later they blunder into the bogs and sink beneath the weight of all that steel and drown there in their armor.” The thought of drowned knights under the water gave Bran the shivers. He didn’t object, though; he liked the shivers.

Quote

“More, if he sweeps the cobblestones,” the captain said, “but swords are no good against the ironmen, unless the men who wield them know how to walk on water.” “The Hightower must be doing something.” “To be sure. Lord Leyton’s locked atop his tower with the Mad Maid, consulting books of spells. Might be he’ll raise an army from the deeps.

Quote

“If it comes, that attack will be no more than a diversion. I saw towers by the sea, submerged beneath a black and bloody tide. That is where the heaviest blow will fall.” “Eastwatch?” Was it? Melisandre had seen Eastwatch-by-the-Sea with King Stannis. That was where His Grace left Queen Selyse and their daughter Shireen when he assembled his knights for the march to Castle Black. The towers in her fire had been different, but that was oft the way with visions. “Yes. Eastwatch, my lord.”

 

[LmL]

2 hours ago, TheSovereignGrave said:

 

I think the main issue with that, is that you don't have any solitary oily black stone structures. You either have a single item (the massive idol on the Isle of Toads and the Seastone Chair) or a city (Asshai and Yeen). The other (the Fiver Forts and the base of the Hightower) are just fused black stone, which may or may not even be connected. And the only labyrinths I can think of are the Hightower base (fused black stone) and the Mazes of Lorath (just regular old stone).

Thanks for clarifying all that, you saved me time. You're 100% accurate on all of that. Fused stone =/= oily black stone. We don't know whether there is any stone which is both - although it is possible, we have no evidence for this. 

[Waters Gate]

7 hours ago, TheSovereignGrave said:

 

I think the main issue with that, is that you don't have any solitary oily black stone structures. You either have a single item (the massive idol on the Isle of Toads and the Seastone Chair) or a city (Asshai and Yeen). The other (the Fiver Forts and the base of the Hightower) are just fused black stone, which may or may not even be connected. And the only labyrinths I can think of are the Hightower base (fused black stone) and the Mazes of Lorath (just regular old stone).

I agree it is so. But is that an issue per se? I should have noted that my argument was that atleast those oily black stone structure's that have labyrinths are actually tombs, and that Asshai is a tomb city.

Why should every found instance of the black oiled stone be there for 1 purpose only? The connection of the black oily stone doesn't so much insinuate 1 type of use, it might as well point to one race/culture building various structure's with that material or that all these oily black stone strucutre's are build by different culture's but around the same time where that black oily stone had a special meaning.

If the connection was origin, then i might give a further nod to the idea that the stone originates from one or more comets. The thing is that you wouldn't nessecarily blame ancients if they had the perception that meteors have a godly nature or origin, and that perhaps the idea with the tomb is that the stone might one day return to the sky with the body in it. For that same matter you wouldn't be too surprized that various different culture's might attribute different powers to such cosmic stone, like carve an immiage of a god out of it.

I can't explain all the oily stone, but i'm pretty convinced that those huge labyrinth holding stucture's out of black stone are indeed tombs for once very powerfull beings. For what regards the relevance to Westeros the only such large labyrinth structure around is the base of the hightower, of which i then indeed think it has someone very important buried at it, along with riches and perhaps artifacts.

Just a little note, the stone is said to drink light so that might make it harder to explore such a labyrinthe from the inside, maybe the glass candle's are of a special use in relation to this black stone, bot in being able to provide enough light and perhaps even revealing things that might be written on the black stone. The Glass candle's afterall have the tendency to change colors.

[House Cambodia]

On 03/02/2016 at 6:09 AM, NimbleDickCrabb66 said:

The mazemakers of Lorath have a lot going on. On the westeros wiki it mentions that a precise date of when valyrian members of the cult of Boash (the blind god) recolonized the acient mazes of lorath. Something like 1400 years before Aegon's conquest, its odd that we have an exact date.

It could be possible that these mazes are actually underground passages that deep ones (who may have had some human characteristics they developed that allowed them to walk on land) used to access the land. Blind god and the faceless god have some similarities, and the fact that arya meets a supposed Lorathi who turns out to be a faceless men seems un-coincidental.

 

There seems to be some different accounts of how the mazemakers met their end. Apparently there was a scouring of lorath, by valyrians due to an Qarlon attempting to conquer norvos. The scouring certainly sounds like an complete demise of the maze makers, but then there is also some info. about the mazemakers meeting their end due to something from underwater. Sounds like there might have been some link to the mazes in Lorath to the deep ones or this under water species.

 

It goes on to say that the preists of lorath (after the scouring) were eventually corrupted and overthrown by their inhabitants. This made me think of a few things.

1. Valyrians branched off to worship the blind god Boash - perhaps due to some hidden knowledge/power garnered from the mazes. This lends to the idea that valyrians branched off and could attribute to the similar yet different black stones we are seeing. One faction has fused stone, one faction has cruder carved stone with joints. Similar magics, similar stones, yet different in some way.

2. Lorath is VERY close to bravos, where the faceless men are based out of. The faceless men harness some very powerful magic, and I beleive that faceless men are immortal, possibly just moving one consicensness from one face/body to another.

3. I dont think the base of the HighTower is fused stone, which makes it closer to the mazemakers hewn stone mazes. What if these mazes are underground passageways used by some form of deep one? It would make a lot of sense. In a world that has no sun, the underground/underwater spaces would be warmer and easier to survive in (especially if you have a set of gills). I also like the idea that these mazes could be the resting place for some great being that could be potentially reborn through magic.

 

This isnt too organized, but I read through this whole thread and I dont beleive all of the above has been mentioned. I really hope we get some good reveals this season about the hightower (and that the show doesnt deviant from what will come in the books on this!).

 

Really enjoyed reading this thread and the mystery of these stones is fantastic!

 

 

 

This is interesting. We have hints that the northern shore of Essos was populated by something akin to Children of the Forest way way back. Is it possible that the tunnelling technology of the Lorathians were know to the Children? There are hints of a huge tunnel complex under Westeros.

[LmL]

4 hours ago, Waters Gate said:

I agree it is so. But is that an issue per se? I should have noted that my argument was that atleast those oily black stone structure's that have labyrinths are actually tombs, and that Asshai is a tomb city.

Why should every found instance of the black oiled stone be there for 1 purpose only? The connection of the black oily stone doesn't so much insinuate 1 type of use, it might as well point to one race/culture building various structure's with that material or that all these oily black stone strucutre's are build by different culture's but around the same time where that black oily stone had a special meaning.

If the connection was origin, then i might give a further nod to the idea that the stone originates from one or more comets. The thing is that you wouldn't nessecarily blame ancients if they had the perception that meteors have a godly nature or origin, and that perhaps the idea with the tomb is that the stone might one day return to the sky with the body in it. For that same matter you wouldn't be too surprized that various different culture's might attribute different powers to such cosmic stone, like carve an immiage of a god out of it.

I can't explain all the oily stone, but i'm pretty convinced that those huge labyrinth holding stucture's out of black stone are indeed tombs for once very powerfull beings. For what regards the relevance to Westeros the only such large labyrinth structure around is the base of the hightower, of which i then indeed think it has someone very important buried at it, along with riches and perhaps artifacts.

Just a little note, the stone is said to drink light so that might make it harder to explore such a labyrinthe from the inside, maybe the glass candle's are of a special use in relation to this black stone, bot in being able to provide enough light and perhaps even revealing things that might be written on the black stone. The Glass candle's afterall have the tendency to change colors.

There are no labrynths of oily black stone, just to be clear. The tomb idea is interesting, I'm neither disagreeing or agreeing, but we should be clear on the facts. The only mazes / labrynths we hear about are not connected to oily black stone. 

[LmL]

@Nimble Dick Crabb, yes, the Hightower fortress is most definitely fused black stone, with no hint of joint or mortar. It's specifically said to be so by the maesters, who of course have seen in many times. 

[Waters Gate]

9 minutes ago, LmL said:

There are no labrynths of oily black stone, just to be clear. The tomb idea is interesting, I'm neither disagreeing or agreeing, but we should be clear on the facts. The only mazes / labrynths we hear about are not connected to oily black stone. 

There is a labyrinth in the hightower and it's made of black stone. the Mazes of Lorath are build out of such black stone.

 

No need to be pedantic wether it's oily or fused, for my theory it hardly matters much. The origin and construction of the base of the hightower is a mystery to the maesters and does hold a labyrinth. For me thats enough in connection with earlier points i made. it's not so much the structure of the stone that matters so much, what matters are the elements that give the impression of a tomb complex in combination with the Nature of Asshai. These elements being color, size and age, the potential confirmed presence of a maze within, and the broad usage in Asshai for a city that seems by all suggestions to be a ancient Necropolis.

[Waters Gate]

A little bit further into the Asshai is a necropolis theory, mind you at this point i'm going into the crackpottery and i hope people can disconnect these theory's with the ones i made earlier which i consider not crackpot.

Anyway. Lets say that the tombs at Asshai don't hold nessecarily just very important regular people, but actual gods. lets say that the gods once lived, but were never immortal, they died and eventually went to the afterlife where they still live.

 

It's a train of thought that interrests me looking at the many faced god. Because death, wether it's the wicked or the good, is ultimatly the only thing this god wants. So lets consider that this god has a goal with this, either to create more subjects for himself in the afterlife, or perhaps even in a bid to one day return to a surface inhabited by the death.

Just a train of thought.

 

[LmL]

5 hours ago, Waters Gate said:

There is a labyrinth in the hightower and it's made of black stone. the Mazes of Lorath are build out of such black stone.

No, Lorath is not black stone of any sort. And the Hightower fortress is not oily. It's not being pedantic, it's just staying consistent with the info in the books. 

5 hours ago, Waters Gate said:

 

No need to be pedantic wether it's oily or fused, for my theory it hardly matters much. The origin and construction of the base of the hightower is a mystery to the maesters and does hold a labyrinth. For me thats enough in connection with earlier points i made. it's not so much the structure of the stone that matters so much, what matters are the elements that give the impression of a tomb complex in combination with the Nature of Asshai. These elements being color, size and age, the potential confirmed presence of a maze within, and the broad usage in Asshai for a city that seems by all suggestions to be a ancient Necropolis.

I don't really see any tomb associations, myself. Hightower fortress does have maze like passages, but it's made of fused stone, not oily. Asshai is made from oily stone, and has no mazes. Neither are associated with tombs, at least nothing like that is stated in the books. Asshai is the largest city in the world which seems to have been depopulated, which is understandable because obviously some sort of catastrophe struck there and has transformed the entire peninsula in a magically toxic shadow lands. I'd look for a new place to live also. 

The Hightower fortress bears all he markings of a trading outpost, mich like the Phoenicians used to build. Just offshore, so unassailable by mainland routes, and built and used by a sea people who came to trade / steal / colonize / etc. Then the first Hightowers lived there - still no mention of tombs. 

I'm not seeing clues about tombs with the oily stone locations - Yeen, Isle of Toads, Seastone Chair, unless I am missing something. 

[Waters Gate]

I'm not talking about Yeen, isle of toads or the Seastone chair. My theory isn't there to nessecarily explain all weird black stone oily or not. My theory explains asshai and the nature of big constructions in black stone that might have mazes. i don't care for my theory that Asshai is made of oily black stone and the hightowr of fused one, the point of the stone is that it is black, a color associated with death and very often used for tombs. The presence of an labyrinth or maze in such a structure makes me believe that a black construction with a maze is a tomb where there are riches inside that shouldn't be found. The question of the function of a labyrinth in such a structure is a mystery but is somewhat easier to understand if you see it within the function of a tomb. There is no mention of labyrinths within the structure's of Asshai, but there are loads of things that suggest it to be a Necropolis, a tomb city, and that the shadowbinders are roaming the tombs there and raising it's dead for answers and perhaps to find treasure.

Like a million theory's, there is no real evidence to actually back it up so strongly, i see youre theory's usually are as easy or hard to prove as the one i'm presenting here. If you wanna see the start of the clues, then start with Asshai, there are plenty of hints to it's nature as a Necropolis. From there on consider the size of such a tomb, consider that it must be for someone very important or powerfull, and then consider that it might hold riches which it might want to protect with a labyrinth.

 

You see its difficult for all of us to make a guess of what the hightower base might be. But for a big black structure to host a labyrinth which should be there for an intention, the answer "tomb" makes some sense, connect that to the necropolis feel of Asshai and you think you have found some extra indication that indeed it might be a tomb. But hey, it's just a theory.

 

I know i started my first posts regarding this theory with "all oily black stone structure's are tombs". That was takign it too far i guess. Ill limite dit for now to Asshai and the hightower, especially because the hightower is likely the only place that really matters in regards to the story.

[TheSovereignGrave]

4 hours ago, Waters Gate said:

I'm not talking about Yeen, isle of toads or the Seastone chair. My theory isn't there to nessecarily explain all weird black stone oily or not. My theory explains asshai and the nature of big constructions in black stone that might have mazes. i don't care for my theory that Asshai is made of oily black stone and the hightowr of fused one, the point of the stone is that it is black, a color associated with death and very often used for tombs. The presence of an labyrinth or maze in such a structure makes me believe that a black construction with a maze is a tomb where there are riches inside that shouldn't be found. The question of the function of a labyrinth in such a structure is a mystery but is somewhat easier to understand if you see it within the function of a tomb. There is no mention of labyrinths within the structure's of Asshai, but there are loads of things that suggest it to be a Necropolis, a tomb city, and that the shadowbinders are roaming the tombs there and raising it's dead for answers and perhaps to find treasure.

Like a million theory's, there is no real evidence to actually back it up so strongly, i see youre theory's usually are as easy or hard to prove as the one i'm presenting here. If you wanna see the start of the clues, then start with Asshai, there are plenty of hints to it's nature as a Necropolis. From there on consider the size of such a tomb, consider that it must be for someone very important or powerfull, and then consider that it might hold riches which it might want to protect with a labyrinth.

 

You see its difficult for all of us to make a guess of what the hightower base might be. But for a big black structure to host a labyrinth which should be there for an intention, the answer "tomb" makes some sense, connect that to the necropolis feel of Asshai and you think you have found some extra indication that indeed it might be a tomb. But hey, it's just a theory.

 

I know i started my first posts regarding this theory with "all oily black stone structure's are tombs". That was takign it too far i guess. Ill limite dit for now to Asshai and the hightower, especially because the hightower is likely the only place that really matters in regards to the story.

Um, so your reason essentially boils down to "the stone is black"? Because that's not really much to go on when you're talking about a structure and a city that may have been constructed by two separate groups of people (they're made of different material using completely different construction methods with little in common between the two with the only similarity being the colour and that they're mysterious).

[Waters Gate]

2 minutes ago, TheSovereignGrave said:

Um, so your reason essentially boils down to "the stone is black"? Because that's not really much to go on when you're talking about a structure and a city that may have been constructed by two separate groups of people (they're made of different material using completely different construction methods with little in common between the two with the only similarity being the colour and that they're mysterious).

My reasoning starts with Asshai giving ample impression to being a necropolis, making it's structure tombs. In wondering if other such large blac stone stucture's might be tombs, it occured to me that them being balck and containign a labyrinth is not out of place. There is not much function for a labyrinth anyhow other than some amusement, unless afcourse it's part of a burial complex ith treasure inside.

Why does Asshai look like a Necropolis? a large uninhabited city safe for shadowbinders, a gate to the "corpse city of stygia", to pass Asshai is to pass under the shadow. The people staying ther need to export fresh drinking water because the water is poisen, otoh the city seems to export gold and gems but the gold is reputed to be as "toxic" as everything else from there. Cursed gold i say, dug up from tombs by shadowbinders who used shadows to find the location of it.  Asshai is huge and full of large black structure's that noone knows who build it or owned by an. The thought is that a cataclysm made all the people dissapear, but there apparently hasn't been any destruction. And these are no normal constructions, they are both ancient and andvanced, it's but a mystery who build them and how they have lasted for so long in such good state.

 

One theory could argue that the shadows were a disaster that happened on Asshai, making the place impossible to live in for a large poppulation. Still, strange that there isn't even a small local poppulation given that they seem to have good export products.

My theory is that the Shadowlands always were there, that this is the gate to the underworld, and that Asshai was just ment to be a graveyeard near it, giving reason to why there are no local inhabitants but the dead.

It's just a theory though, but i'm pretty sure for myself that Asshai is a necropolis, for me it makes a lot of the story's regarding Asshai make sense.

[Falcon2908]

In the season 6 episode 6 tomorrow, we're finally going to see Oldtown! I can't wait to see the Hightower, and its Geo-Dawnian foundation!