[WoIaF Spoilers] Oily Stone: Yeen, Asshai, The Wall, 5 Forts, Hinges of the World

[The Sleeper]

On the edges of GRRM's imagination lurks H.P. Lovecraft.

[Waters Gate]

Here I made a map where this oily black stone is seen. >Here<

No black stone on Lorath?

[joluoto2]

Of course, it could be some kind of artificial obsidian made fusing stone with magic, like Valyrian architecture.

Whatever stone it originally was I think magic is the key. A weird stone no one recognized found in artefacts and ancient buildings all over the world, yeah that screams magic to me. (And Ancient Aliens and Lovecraftian abominations too).

[jet199]

I agree that it has no real world equalivent (I want to call it seastone :P)

Here I made a map where this oily black stone is seen. >Here<

Actually, I'm not sure if Asshai stone is same with the seastone. None of the other buildings seems to drink light. Well...it's greasy and black like Seastone Chair but I don't know.

I love the map.

To me it looks like the outline of where a ice sheet would sit during an ice age (but then I would think that as it fits with one of my crackpots).

I don't think the black greasy stone is a real world thing. I think it is the builders version of valyrian steel.

basalt+extream heat+magic=weird black stone.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Is there any reference to the lower level of the Hightower as being greasy or oily? There isn't one on p214. Yandel just notes that Maester Theron said the Hightower and the Seastone Chair share some similarities, without clarifying what those similarities are. We should be precise about this; we're working with variations on a theme, and the variations should be important.

[butterbumps!]

Is there any reference to the lower level of the Hightower as being greasy or oily? There isn't one on p214. Yandel just notes that Maester Theron said the Hightower and the Seastone Chair share some similarities, without clarifying what those similarities are. We should be precise about this; we're working with variations on a theme, and the variations should be important.

I strongly agree with this. I'd looked, and I'm not so certain the fortress is "oily" or "greasy."

Frankly, in light of the way the WB points out that it sits atop "Battle Isle," with pointed reference to how no one knows which battle it was named for, I wonder if we're looking at something carved from obsidian, as Waters Gate referenced upthread. The Reach chapter also contains reference to undead armies, so wightification isn't exactly a foreign concept to this region.

I'm becoming more convinced that the Battle for the Dawn may have been fought in the South (at least a major part of it), possibly culminating at this fortress atop Battle Isle. A fortress made of obsidian seems rather apropos for such an enemy, if this is indeed the substance. Interesting too how this fortress quite literally became a "light bringer;" the light tower was superimposed over it. This also gets us a lot closer to Starfall and Dawn.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

I don't think obsidian makes a good building material. It fractures too easily. The Hightower fort is described as resembling Valyrian fused stone (dragonstone) so closely in material composition that many take that as proof that it was built by Valyrians. The doubts about that are due to form - no decorative embellishments, the tunnel-like interior. That could just be a matter of fashion/style that changes over the millennia. Or the passages might have been gnawed out.

Sam should have fun with this in tWoW.

[butterbumps!]

I don't think obsidian makes a good building material. It fractures too easily. The Hightower fort is described as resembling Valyrian fused stone (dragonstone) so closely in material composition that many take that as proof that it was built by Valyrians. The doubts about that are due to form - no decorative embellishments, the tunnel-like interior. That could just be a matter of fashion/style that changes over the millennia. Or the passages might have been gnawed out.

Sam should have fun with this in tWoW.

Obsidian as we know it is brittle, to be sure. But if we're looking at magical craftsmanship, that issue may have been overcome (and if magic went into its construction, it may have changed the appearance such that it's not obvious it's actually obsidian anymore).

wrt the "who" of this, what about something as simple as "proto-Valyrians?" The Hightowers and Daynes are First Men who share remarkable similarities with the Valyrians. And we know the Daynes were able to work that piece of cosmic metal into Dawn, and the Hightowers seem to be one of the first architects in Westeros.

Might these works be evidence of the FM's simply including a proto-Valyrian race of some sort? That is, it could be why this architecture is similar to what's known of High Valyria, though not the same stylistically, deriving from the same rudimentary technology, but split and developed separately.

[jet199]

I strongly agree with this. I'd looked, and I'm not so certain the fortress is "oily" or "greasy."

Frankly, in light of the way the WB points out that it sits atop "Battle Isle," with pointed reference to how no one knows which battle it was named for, I wonder if we're looking at something carved from obsidian, as Waters Gate referenced upthread. The Reach chapter also contains reference to undead armies, so wightification isn't exactly a foreign concept to this region.

I'm becoming more convinced that the Battle for the Dawn may have been fought in the South (at least a major part of it), possibly culminating at this fortress atop Battle Isle. A fortress made of obsidian seems rather apropos for such an enemy, if this is indeed the substance. Interesting too how this fortress quite literally became a "light bringer;" the light tower was superimposed over it. This also gets us a lot closer to Starfall and Dawn.

We have both a war for dawn and a battle for dawn mentioned in the books.

I think it may be that the tide of the fight turned, the first human victory was won, at Battle Isle but the Others were most likely defeated at Winterfell.

[butterbumps!]

We have both a war for dawn and a battle for dawn mentioned in the books.

I think it may be that the tide of the fight turned, the first human victory was won, at Battle Isle but the Others were most likely defeated at Winterfell.

I think that's totally reasonable too. I don't have firm thoughts about all of it, but the WB does make it seem like there's more to this than merely the North. But I do agree there's something to the idea of Winterfell being, quite literally, where "winter fell."

[Waters Gate]

I strongly agree with this. I'd looked, and I'm not so certain the fortress is "oily" or "greasy."

Frankly, in light of the way the WB points out that it sits atop "Battle Isle," with pointed reference to how no one knows which battle it was named for, I wonder if we're looking at something carved from obsidian, as Waters Gate referenced upthread. The Reach chapter also contains reference to undead armies, so wightification isn't exactly a foreign concept to this region.

Yes but from the perspective of the stone appearing "oily" i had also considered that this might be a material that is filled with hydrocarbons, or basicly fuel within the stone, like one would have in shale oil even if that would make rather poor building material. The idea would be that the thing can be set on fire, to create a huge fire, might have advantages say in keeping away others, producing light in the darkness, and heating the area so one could even farm maybe.

Also, i thought they might haven been used once as "terraforming devices", like someone build huge bonfire's around the world to heat up the atmosphere. These terraforming devices would have been shut down automaticly by rising water levels, as these stone's seem to be found along shores or near water and are all practicly on the same elevation from the sea level i guess.

There was that passage of there maybe having been dragons in the past on battle island. Afcourse such one could interpret in different ways. it might have been literal dragons, it might have been valyrians, maybe it was a volcano, or there was oil boiling out of the ground there and it was on fire.

So another idea might be that these structure's are some sort of oil wells. or oil refinery's upon wells. Oil could be handy, lest to say for during a long night i suppose, and then it might also explain why exactly on those locations.

[RumHam]

I wonder if we're looking at something carved from obsidian, as Waters Gate referenced upthread.

Wouldn't the maesters recognize it as obsidian though?

[butterbumps!]

Wouldn't the maesters recognize it as obsidian though?

I mentioned that it may not be obvious that obsidian is the substance if magic went into the craftsmanship. That principle would go for any material, I hasten to add. I mean, in a world with magical engineering, the original material could become unrecognizable through said engineering.

Yes but from the perspective of the stone appearing "oily" i had also considered that this might be a material that is filled with hydrocarbons, or basicly fuel within the stone, like one would have in shale oil even if that would make rather poor building material. The idea would be that the thing can be set on fire, to create a huge fire, might have advantages say in keeping away others, producing light in the darkness, and heating the area so one could even farm maybe.

Also, i thought they might haven been used once as "terraforming devices", like someone build huge bonfire's around the world to heat up the atmosphere. These terraforming devices would have been shut down automaticly by rising water levels, as these stone's seem to be found along shores or near water and are all practicly on the same elevation from the sea level i guess.

There was that passage of there maybe having been dragons in the past on battle island. Afcourse such one could interpret in different ways. it might have been literal dragons, it might have been valyrians, maybe it was a volcano, or there was oil boiling out of the ground there and it was on fire.

So another idea might be that these structure's are some sort of oil wells. or oil refinery's upon wells. Oil could be handy, lest to say for during a long night i suppose, and then it might also explain why exactly on those locations.

Like how those obsidian candles can be lit and cast this very pure, unmitigated light? I think there's probably some significance to the fact that this thing was crested by a light bringer. And how that same family went on to found the Citadel, with the purpose of "casting light" everywhere one of their order went, complete with that whole glass candle ritual.

ETA: I'm thinking of this passage:

“It is a lesson,” Armen said, “the last lesson we must learn before we don our maester’s chains. The glass candle is meant to represent truth and learning, rare and beautiful and fragile things. It is made in the shape of a candle to remind us that a maester must cast light wherever he serves, and it is sharp to remind us that knowledge can be dangerous. Wise men may grow arrogant in their wisdom, but a maester must always remain humble. The glass candle reminds us of that as well. Even after he has said his vow and donned his chain and gone forth to serve, a maester will think back on the darkness of his vigil and remember how nothing that he did could make the candle burn . . . for even with knowledge, some things are not possible.”

[Hrafntýr]

I mentioned that it may not be obvious that obsidian is the substance if magic went into the craftsmanship. That principle would go for any material, I hasten to add. I mean, in a world with magical engineering, the original material could become unrecognizable through said engineering.

Like how those obsidian candles can be lit and cast this very pure, unmitigated light? I think there's probably some significance to the fact that this thing was crested by a light bringer.

Honestly, I think that any volcanic rock would probably do, and incidentally there are a number of them that have an "official" descriptor of oily or resinous. I think there are enough hints that there's something magical related to volcanic forces and that there's a connection between dragons and volcanoes to account for similar appearance of Valyrian architecture and "naturally" occurring volcanic rocks, the pips around "naturally" being due to the fact that it's likely that there's been magical manipulation of volcanic forces; on Planetos, all volcanic activity might, in fact, be caused by firewyrms. And firewyrms might be manipulated (by the Children, by the Valyrians, by skinchangers, etc.) to cause volcanic activity.

[butterbumps!]

Honestly, I think that any volcanic rock would probably do, and incidentally there are a number of them that have an "official" descriptor of oily or resinous. I think there are enough hints that there's something magical related to volcanic forces and that there's a connection between dragons and volcanoes to account for similar appearance of Valyrian architecture and "naturally" occurring volcanic rocks, the pips around "naturally" being due to the fact that it's likely that there's been magical manipulation of volcanic forces; on Planetos, all volcanic activity might, in fact, be caused by firewyrms. And firewyrms might be manipulated (by the Children, by the Valyrians, by skinchangers, etc.) to cause volcanic activity.

The heavy theme of glass candles and light bringing in the surrounding area is why I was thinking of manipulated obsidian. I'm not sure how it adds up or anything. I just lean toward a few proto-Valyrians amongst these early First Men, and suspect there's something going on with this at that fortress.

ETA: I'm also not sure all these black stones are exactly the same thing. I'm thinking some might be cosmic, and others igneous.

[Waters Gate]

I mentioned that it may not be obvious that obsidian is the substance if magic went into the craftsmanship. That principle would go for any material, I hasten to add. I mean, in a world with magical engineering, the original material could become unrecognizable through said engineering.

Like how those obsidian candles can be lit and cast this very pure, unmitigated light? I think there's probably some significance to the fact that this thing was crested by a light bringer. And how that same family went on to found the Citadel, with the purpose of "casting light" everywhere one of their order went, complete with that whole glass candle ritual.

ETA: I'm thinking of this passage:

“It is a lesson,” Armen said, “the last lesson we must learn before we don our maester’s chains. The glass candle is meant to represent truth and learning, rare and beautiful and fragile things. It is made in the shape of a candle to remind us that a maester must cast light wherever he serves, and it is sharp to remind us that knowledge can be dangerous. Wise men may grow arrogant in their wisdom, but a maester must always remain humble. The glass candle reminds us of that as well. Even after he has said his vow and donned his chain and gone forth to serve, a maester will think back on the darkness of his vigil and remember how nothing that he did could make the candle burn . . . for even with knowledge, some things are not possible.”

That is a very interresting idea. I have to note that ive always thought the obsidian of the glass candle's to be crafted in a rather extremely advanced way. Even besides the idea that those pieces of obsidian can emit light, they are solid candle shaped pieces 3 feet long. Slender and sharp. It's however arguably very difficult to create such an large slender piece of worked obsidian that would be durable aswell, atleast durable enough to last century's in the hands of clumsy acolyte's. Such a piece of obsidian should easily brake if you let it fall, and they give it to acolyte's to spend a night with it in the dark.

Or basicly the obsidian of those glass candle's doesn't appear to be normal obsidian, rather something more advanced.

[Ser Lepus]

Honestly, I think that any volcanic rock would probably do, and incidentally there are a number of them that have an "official" descriptor of oily or resinous.

I have checked and yes, there are black igneous minerals/stones with an "oily" luster, like some dravites. That is very intersting. Could that be the inpiraton for GRRM's "oily" stone buildings?

[Waters Gate]

Minerals arn't always usefull for construction, often they are to rare for it, atleast would require one to remove a lot of stone to gain few of that mineral. There are loads of different types of minerals that could fit the black oily stone, but many of those are rationally unobtainable in volume with technoligy of that time, iirc.

[Ser Lepus]

Minerals arn't always usefull for construction, often they are to rare for it, atleast would require one to remove a lot of stone to gain few of that mineral. There are loads of different types of minerals that could fit the black oily stone, but many of those are rationally unobtainable in volume with technoligy of that time, iirc.

Unless you have magic and can create whole blocks (or giant boulders) of the stuff in place.

[Moondancer]

But I do agree there's something to the idea of Winterfell being, quite literally, where "winter fell."

Sweet, simple ideas are the best. :) I tend to link Winter-fell to "there must be a Start at Winterfell". Perhaps the impeding winter with aided by the dire situation regarding the ruling family in the North but this is off-topic, of course. :)