[TWOIAF Spoilers] Dothraki Discussion

[Ser Lepus]

Ships certainly do sail river Rhoyne.

How do Dothraki get across Rhoyne? Yandry reports that Shy Maid with her broad beam and shallow draught can negotiate sandbars even in smaller vassal streams of Rhoyne, that would strand larger vessels. Are these sandbars also shallow enough all across Rhoyne that men and horses can wade across Rhoyne with head in air and without feet sinking into soft bottom anywhere? Or do Dothraki have to cross by swimming horses?

No way. The Rhoyne seems to be as wide as the Amazon River, a river that big can't be shallow enough for horses to wade it, and it is too wide and its current should be to strong for horses to swim across.

It seems that close to the mouth it breaks into many narrower arms that flow between many islands that form a delta, but Volantis itself is built on those islands, so they would have to fight through the strongest defenses in the region.

[Jaak]

A khalasar that wants to get from Dothraki Sea to Pentos, like Drogo did and many others habitually do, has to cross Qhoyne, Noyne, Rhoyne and Little Rhoyne before reaching Velvet Hills of Pentos.

So how do the Dothraki accomplish the river crossings when unopposed?

[Ser Lepus]

A khalasar that wants to get from Dothraki Sea to Pentos, like Drogo did and many others habitually do, has to cross Qhoyne, Noyne, Rhoyne and Little Rhoyne before reaching Velvet Hills of Pentos.

So how do the Dothraki accomplish the river crossings when unopposed?

They ride really far north, where the rivers are shallow and narrow enough to be waded or crossed with the help of rafts.

Also, the Valyrians probably built bridges were the Dragon Roads cross the Darkwater, the Noyne, the Upper Rhoyne and the Little Rhoyne.

[Jaak]

Also, the Valyrians probably build bridges were the Dragon Roads cross the Darkwater, the Noyne, the Upper Rhoyne and the Little Rhoyne.

So are the Dothraki only able to cross Rhoyne by bridges?

There is no crossing at Volantis. The bridge of Volantis is a wonder, but the mouth of Rhoyne splits into 4 channels, so the Volantis bridge only leads to an island between the branches. To reach the west bank of Rhoyne for Volon Therys and Orange Shore would require crossing the other three channels as well.

Chroyane Bridge does cross the whole Rhoyne, but is it passable for armies in its present condition?

A Valyrian road exists between the ruins of Ar Noy and living city of Qohor, but the road is not shown over the river. Does it mean there is no crossing at Ar Noy, and the only bridge of Qhoyne is in the cty (and inside the fortifications) of Qohor?

[AzureOwl]

A Valyrian road exists between the ruins of Ar Noy and living city of Qohor, but the road is not shown over the river. Does it mean there is no crossing at Ar Noy, and the only bridge of Qhoyne is in the cty (and inside the fortifications) of Qohor?

The Dothraki don't need to cross the Qhoyne. The Forest of Qohor is not an impassable obstacle and the river mostly runs from northeast to southwest. The Dothraki just need to cross the Forest north of Qohor,over the headwaters of the Qhoyne and then turn south to follow the Valyrian road over the Darkwater and the Noyne. There's also likely to be a bridge somewhere in Ghoyan Drohe that just didn't need mentioned in the books proper.

Really, the Valyrian road that once brought som much wealth to Qohor, Norvos and Pentos when Sarnor still existed, nowadays makes them the most vulnerable of the Free Cities to Dothraki attack.

[Jaak]

The Dothraki don't need to cross the Qhoyne. The Forest of Qohor is not an impassable obstacle

Not for an unopposed khalasar, sure.

and the river mostly runs from northeast to southwest. The Dothraki just need to cross the Forest north of Qohor,over the headwaters of the Qhoyne and then turn south to follow the Valyrian road over the Darkwater and the Noyne.

Over the Noyne again right in the city and fortifications of Norvos.

There's also likely to be a bridge somewhere in Ghoyan Drohe that just didn't need mentioned in the books proper.

Probably. But the question is, is the Little Rhoyne around Ghoyan Drohe easy to cross away from the bridge?

Really, the Valyrian road that once brought som much wealth to Qohor, Norvos and Pentos when Sarnor still existed, nowadays makes them the most vulnerable of the Free Cities to Dothraki attack.

Um, Volantis is reached by Demon Road, with no rivers to cross.

[AzureOwl]

One thing I just noticed is that the Valyrian roads featured in the maps are not the only ones. The book mentions that Myr sits at the point where a dragonroad meets the sea, but no such road is featured on the maps. This may imply that the Valyrian road network is more widespread than previously thought, with the possibility of accompanying bridges.

Not for an unopposed khalasar, sure.

The Dothraki may tend to give Qohor a wide berth and the Qohorik gain nothing by impeding them on their way further west.

Over the Noyne again right in the city and fortifications of Norvos.

Not necessarily. The book only says that Norvos is on the eastern bank of the Noyne, but not that it's right up to the waterfront. The Known World map even lends credence to the hypothesis that there's some distance between the river and the city.

Probably. But the question is, is the Little Rhoyne around Ghoyan Drohe easy to cross away from the bridge?

Probably not, But if the Dothraki are already that far, it would be nothing for them to go around the Velvet Hills

Um, Volantis is reached by Demon Road, with no rivers to cross.

Hence the vulnerability and nervousness in Selhorys, and the need for Volantis to maintain strong armies and defenses.

[joluoto2]

A khalasar that wants to get from Dothraki Sea to Pentos, like Drogo did and many others habitually do, has to cross Qhoyne, Noyne, Rhoyne and Little Rhoyne before reaching Velvet Hills of Pentos.

So how do the Dothraki accomplish the river crossings when unopposed?

My guess is rafts over a narrow portion of the river. The horses of course swim (which is why it has to be narrow).

[Jaak]

Compare Trident.

Trident IS fordable - that´s what the battle of the Ruby Ford was about. But on the other hand, the Frey bridge matters. Robb cannot just ford the river at any nearby fords, because there aren´t any all the way to Ruby Ford where Tywin is. But neither can he ignore Freys and swim or raft his force over Trident.

[Wmarshal]

You know, it just doesn't make sense, they do not siege, and well can't because they live in a huge grass land that goes on for ever, so how exactly can they take these cities? The dothraki we have met spoke of how khals ride away if a foe does not meet them in battle, yet they take the cities still? How?

[Ser Lepus]

You know, it just doesn't make sense, they do not siege, and well can't because they live in a huge grass land that goes on for ever, so how exactly can they take these cities? The dothraki we have met spoke of how khals ride away if a foe does not meet them in battle, yet they take the cities still? How?

They probably raided an pillaged the countryside so many times that their economy became unsustainable. By the time they assaulted the cities, they probably were half abandoned already.

[Wmarshal]

They probably raided an pillaged the countryside so many times that their economy became unsustainable. By the time they assaulted the cities, they probably were half abandoned already.

Even if they did that, the cities should have no issue not opening their gates to them. Simply shooting arrows shouldn't give them cities like that, it goes beyond all real logic.

[TheSovereignGrave]

Even if they did that, the cities should have no issue not opening their gates to them. Simply shooting arrows shouldn't give them cities like that, it goes beyond all real logic.

Or the Dothraki just didn't assault cities. They could just raid and pillage the countryside until the ruler has no choice but to either starve to death or try to attack the Dothraki in an actual battle.

[Mithras]

You know, it just doesn't make sense, they do not siege, and well can't because they live in a huge grass land that goes on for ever, so how exactly can they take these cities? The dothraki we have met spoke of how khals ride away if a foe does not meet them in battle, yet they take the cities still? How?

It is also said that there are countless remains of sacked cities to show the distaste of Dothraki against structure.

[Mithras]

Or the Dothraki just didn't assault cities. They could just raid and pillage the countryside until the ruler has no choice but to either starve to death or try to attack the Dothraki in an actual battle.

They certainly assault cities. They sacked Ib several times.

[TheSovereignGrave]

They certainly assault cities. They sacked Ib several times.

Oh yeah, forgot about that. Well, I was wrong.

[Wmarshal]

It is also said that there are countless remains of sacked cities to show the distaste of Dothraki against structure.

This is what makes it confusing, Martin removed the need to siege for the dothraki.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Or the Dothraki just didn't assault cities. They could just raid and pillage the countryside until the ruler has no choice but to either starve to death or try to attack the Dothraki in an actual battle.

:agree:

Any state can only take raids for so long before they need to face the enemy in open battle or face too much civil unrest. The Fabian Strategy is a risky gamble for any government.

[Wmarshal]

:agree:

Any state can only take raids for so long before they need to face the enemy in open battle or face too much civil unrest. The Fabian Strategy is a risky gamble for any government.

Save the dothraki we have met sated khals just move on, sieging isn't their thing. And the assualts we have read shows them just taking the cities and assaulting the people. It is so annoying, it looks like Martin just coped and pasted the Mongol history. It ignores common need of sieging, need of weapons and armor for it. It is also saying that the mongols didn't need weapons like lances and armor to win their wars, all they needed was a bow!

[Bright Blue Eyes]

They don't siege. They don't need to siege. Because they pound the farms and villages and small, unfortified towns until the armies come out of their fortresses.

It's a classic chevauchee: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevauch%C3%A9e