Whats up with House Tully?

[Seaworth'sShipmate]

This will be an unpopular opinion, but House Tully is among my least favorite of the Westeros Houses. Though (most) of the Tullys have a strong sense of ethics and duty, they also have a poisonous, unpleasant vibe to them, that Im trying to figure out. They seem quite traditional and conservative. They are all about "Honor" and doing what is "right" as they understand it, but with that I think also comes a narrow minded snobbery toward those who do not fit their mold of what is "right". This seems to include bastards, Lannisters (even before the war started), and "new money" houses like the Freys. Lets just examine this self righteous, odd group.

Catelyn: Good person overall but also with a petty and unpleasant side. Half the time I am reading about her, she is castigating or chastising someone for being foolish or whatever. She just seems to go way over the top sometimes, and, though she loves her kids and believes in doing right by others, also seems like sort of an aggravating, unpleasant person who I wouldn't want to be around. Plus her disdain for all bastards, not just Jon Snow ( as if they could help it.)

Hoster: Seems like a pompous and petty jerk to me really. He forced his daughter to have an abortion and married her off to a man older than he was. Also burnt a village whose lord defied him. The worst though was sending the blackfish away, all because he didn't want to be married without his say-so. Seems like a pretty patronizing, imperious relationship to have with one's brother.

Edmure: Not unpleasant at all really, but kind of stupid. Listening to him blabber on his way to the Twins, really made me think he was just Cat's dumb kid brother.

Lysa: One of the more poisonous and malignant characters in the series. True, she's motivated by a lack of love, and obsession with an old lover, but she is among my least favorite characters, right up there with Viserys and Cersei.

Brynden: I kinda like Brendyn. He is by far my favorite Tully. Just seems kind of bad-ass for escaping both the Red Wedding and Riverrun (as far as we know.) Still I didn't like how he was suspicious of Jon Snow ( just because he was a bastard?) and I think the Brotherhood without Banners thought he was sort of a snob.

Is anyone else getting what Im seeing here? What could be up with the Tullys?

[Shadow Cat 75]

I get what you mean, I am not a huge fan of the Tully's as well however with the notable exception of the Black Fish, he is among my favorite minor characters, however I feel some of the anger against Cat is based off how she treated Jon Snow who is my favorite overall character, I don't have Longclaw on my wall for nothing. Some say she should have been a mother to Jon but the fact that he looked so much like Nedd and reminded her of his "sin" (I believe R+L=J) caused her not to do that. I can't totally fault her for not treating him as one of her own children.

[Seaworth'sShipmate]

I get what you mean, I am not a huge fan of the Tully's as well however with the notable exception of the Black Fish, he is among my favorite minor characters, however I feel some of the anger against Cat is based off how she treated Jon Snow who is my favorite overall character, I don't have Longclaw on my wall for nothing. Some say she should have been a mother to Jon but the fact that he looked so much like Nedd and reminded her of his "sin" (I believe R+L=J) caused her not to do that. I can't totally fault her for not treating him as one of her own children.

Its really not how she treated Jon, that made me dislike her so. I really hated her when I first read A Game of Thrones, and realize it isn't as personal or about Ned's presumed adultery as we all might think. The fact of the matter is, Jon Snow, is not her child, and she didn't go through great pain and great risk to her life to bring him into the world, as all women who gave birth in the middle ages did. His presence jeaprodizes the future of her own children and complicates what share of the Winterfell lands they get. I think that is a huge part of it, seeing him as a threat to her children ( not in terms of killing them, but of taking their inheritance, things etc.) in addition to the whole anger at Ned thing.

[Cat of the Rivers]

This will be an unpopular opinion, but House Tully is among my least favorite of the Westeros Houses. Though (most) of the Tullys have a strong sense of ethics and duty, they also have a poisonous, unpleasant vibe to them, that Im trying to figure out. They seem quite traditional and conservative. They are all about "Honor" and doing what is "right" as they understand it, but with that I think also comes a narrow minded snobbery toward those who do not fit their mold of what is "right". This seems to include bastards, Lannisters (even before the war started), and "new money" houses like the Freys. Lets just examine this self righteous, odd group.

Catelyn: Good person overall but also with a petty and unpleasant side. Half the time I am reading about her, she is castigating or chastising someone for being foolish or whatever. She just seems to go way over the top sometimes, and, though she loves her kids and believes in doing right by others, also seems like sort of an aggravating, unpleasant person who I wouldn't want to be around. Plus her disdain for all bastards, not just Jon Snow ( as if they could help it.)

Hoster: Seems like a pompous and petty jerk to me really. He forced his daughter to have an abortion and married her off to a man older than he was. Also burnt a village whose lord defied him. The worst though was sending the blackfish away, all because he didn't want to be married without his say-so. Seems like a pretty patronizing, imperious relationship to have with one's brother.

Edmure: Not unpleasant at all really, but kind of stupid. Listening to him blabber on his way to the Twins, really made me think he was just Cat's dumb kid brother.

Lysa: One of the more poisonous and malignant characters in the series. True, she's motivated by a lack of love, and obsession with an old lover, but she is among my least favorite characters, right up there with Viserys and Cersei.

Brynden: I kinda like Brendyn. He is by far my favorite Tully. Just seems kind of bad-ass for escaping both the Red Wedding and Riverrun (as far as we know.) Still I didn't like how he was suspicious of Jon Snow ( just because he was a bastard?) and I think the Brotherhood without Banners thought he was sort of a snob.

The Lannisters were ruled by Tywin Lannister the guy who butchered Rhaenys and Aegon and who's subordinate raped Elia. The guy who's theme song is about killing his subordinates. Jaime's a Kingslayer, Tyrion's a dwarf who has a sharp tongue and Cersei's quite unlikable. And the Lannisters arrogance is famed. Does it really surprise you not a lot of people like the Lannisters?

The Freys didn't come to RR until the Trident when it was clear who was winning. That just smacks of cowardice.

Catelyn is also in grief. And she chastises Robb who should have heeded her advice and Edmure who at the time was acting rather childish (worrying about his bride's looks when they're in the middle of a war) though she feels bad about her behavior. Please list some incidents where she is "unpleasant" and "aggravating".

Hoster: The only way the Tullys can defend themselves is through marriage. Due to the Riverlands lacking natural borders as say the Vale's Mountains of the Moon they have to make marriage alliances. True, the way he treated Lysa was despicable but Blackfish I think is debatable. And Goodbrook's village too is debatable.

Edmure's also one of the only lords who cares about his people. A bit stupidly yes but he still cares. And he's a decent guy overall.

Lysa's a sympathetic villain so I agree.

Jon Snow was the illegitimate child of Catelyn's marriage and an insult to House Tully by raising him alongside the trueborn children. To be fair this isn't Jon's fault but this is Westeros where bastards have a certain stigma and Blackfish himself fought in the last Blackfyre rebellion. And it's a bit weird that Jon got chosen as LC (and Sam achieved that through lying) when there are more capable and experienced people. And the Brotherhood without Banners barely know Blackfish.

[Blackfish Tully]

Hoster: Seems like a pompous and petty jerk to me really. He forced his daughter to have an abortion and married her off to a man older than he was. Also burnt a village whose lord defied him. The worst though was sending the blackfish away, all because he didn't want to be married without his say-so. Seems like a pretty patronizing, imperious relationship to have with one's brother.

It wasn't just that Lord Goodbrook defied Hoster Tully he actually joined the Mad King against the rest of the Riverlords in Robert's rebellion . What should Hoster have done ? just ignored that one of his Lords had joined his enemies against him . If the rebellion had failed Hoster's family and most of the other Riverlords would have been executed and their lands given to Lords who had stayed loyal to the Mad King including Lord Goodbrook .

[The Wolf Lord's Daughter]

This will be an unpopular opinion, but House Tully is among my least favorite of the Westeros Houses. Though (most) of the Tullys have a strong sense of ethics and duty, they also have a poisonous, unpleasant vibe to them, that Im trying to figure out. They seem quite traditional and conservative. They are all about "Honor" and doing what is "right" as they understand it, but with that I think also comes a narrow minded snobbery toward those who do not fit their mold of what is "right". This seems to include bastards, Lannisters (even before the war started), and "new money" houses like the Freys. Lets just examine this self righteous, odd group.

Catelyn: Good person overall but also with a petty and unpleasant side. Half the time I am reading about her, she is castigating or chastising someone for being foolish or whatever. She just seems to go way over the top sometimes, and, though she loves her kids and believes in doing right by others, also seems like sort of an aggravating, unpleasant person who I wouldn't want to be around. Plus her disdain for all bastards, not just Jon Snow ( as if they could help it.)

Hoster: Seems like a pompous and petty jerk to me really. He forced his daughter to have an abortion and married her off to a man older than he was. Also burnt a village whose lord defied him. The worst though was sending the blackfish away, all because he didn't want to be married without his say-so. Seems like a pretty patronizing, imperious relationship to have with one's brother.

Edmure: Not unpleasant at all really, but kind of stupid. Listening to him blabber on his way to the Twins, really made me think he was just Cat's dumb kid brother.

Lysa: One of the more poisonous and malignant characters in the series. True, she's motivated by a lack of love, and obsession with an old lover, but she is among my least favorite characters, right up there with Viserys and Cersei.

Brynden: I kinda like Brendyn. He is by far my favorite Tully. Just seems kind of bad-ass for escaping both the Red Wedding and Riverrun (as far as we know.) Still I didn't like how he was suspicious of Jon Snow ( just because he was a bastard?) and I think the Brotherhood without Banners thought he was sort of a snob.

Is anyone else getting what Im seeing here? What could be up with the Tullys?

1) The Tully's weren't against the Lannisters before they started burning their lands. Before RR, Hoster was trying to marry Lysa to Jaime. If anything, Ned and Benjen have a bias against the Lannisters. Ned despises Tywin for coming so late to the war and the sack of KL and despises Jaime for killing the king he swore to protect. Hoster Tully doesn't trust the Freys because they, like Tywin, came late to Robert's cause and in the Frey's case, it was more serious as Lord Walder is obliged to follow his LP.

2) Most of the time, people around Catelyn are being foolish. Examples are Renly holding a freaking Melee in the middle of a war, Robb marrying Jeyne Westerling and sending away Theon Greyjoy and Edmure bringing peasants into a castle that could be held under siege at any moment (but I thought it was extremely sweet of him and love him for it). Brienne doesn't think she's aggravating, rather she thinks Cat is one of the few people who were ever kind to her. As for disdain for all bastards, where is that coming from? She does resent Mya Stone for a moment, but only because she feels guilty for Jon Snow. Later she even pities Mya, thinking that she is as full of dreams as Sansa. And for Jon Snow, Catelyn wasn't obliged to love him. He was her husband's bastards, a constant reminder that he was unfaithful to her. Would I havee been ecstatic if Catelyn loved Jon? Yes. Do I hate her for not doing so? No.

3)Edmure is a very good Lord and one of the very ,very few that actually give a damn about their subjects. He's not the brightest bulb in the box but he's far from stupid.

4)Why would Brynden trust someone he doesn't know after all that he has faced since the RW? Let's face it, Jon Snow's election looks suspicious if you don't know of Sam's involvement. It has been speculated that Brynden might think the Lannisters put him in command as their puppet, but I don't really believe that. And nowhere is the BWB's opinion on Brynden given.

Overall, I like the Tullys (with the exception of Lysa and Hoster) and they are my second favorite house.

[Blackfish Tully]

Hoster should have only killed Lord Godbrook. There was no point in burning an entire village for the actions of one man.

This is war , you have to destroy your enemies before they destroy you. What would Ned Stark have done if the Umbers or the Karstarks had joined the Mad King ? he would have attacked them and destroyed their villages and laid siege to their castles. Lord Goodbrooks people paid for his action but Hoster Tully had no choice in his actions.

[David Selig]

This will be an unpopular opinion, but House Tully is among my least favorite of the Westeros Houses.

Not at all. I've lost count of the "Why do the Tullys suck?" type threads around here.

[Red Tiger]

You don't like Sesame Street?

[Knight Of Winter]

Ok, let's break it into segments:

Catelyn: who I consider loving, compassionate and quite ethical person. Most of the times she chastises others, it's because they are being foolish or bad at decision-making. I don't see her as unpleasant to be around (lasing few times after losing Bran and Rickon is understandable, don't you think), as I can't phantom what makes you think she's disdainful towards all bastards. If anything, she pitied Mya Stone and thought she reminded her of Sansa.

Hoster: I agree with you here, although I can't help but notice how in the other thread you started defend Walder Frey for slaugthering an army whose commander defied him.

Edmure: one on not many lords who shows sense of duty towards his subjects and cares for them. Half-forced into marriage he didn't like, he jested with his companions about his bride. Not the most valiant thing he could do, but come on. Also, his supposed stupidity is rare case of informed ability in ASOIAF. While he's certainly no Varys or Olenna Tyrell, I've yet to see him act or say something truly dumb.

Lysa: whom I strongly dislike, but I think you misread her. If anything, she's motivated by too much emotions and too little reason, and not by "lack of love".

Brynden: if you want to read ASOIAF like action book and evaluate characters based on how badass they are, that's your choice. Personally, I think him a bit of jerk - for stubbornly clinging to RR's defense when nothing could be gained by battle, except for throwing countless lives. Or for joining Robb in criticizing Edmure for not being a mind-reader.

[Falcon2908]

This is war , you have to destroy your enemies before they destroy you. What would Ned Stark have done if the Umbers or the Karstarks had joined the Mad King ? he would have attacked them and destroyed their villages and laid siege to their castles. Lord Goodbrooks people paid for his action but Hoster Tully had no choice in his actions.

Ned Stark would have exceuted the Umbers and karstarks and those loyal to their cause. I don't think he'd kill innocent people. He's not Tywin Lannister.

[Red Tiger]

Brynden: if you want to read ASOIAF like action book and evaluate characters based on how badass they are, that's your choice. Personally, I think him a bit of jerk - for stubbornly clinging to RR's defense when nothing could be gained by battle, except for throwing countless lives. Or for joining Robb in criticizing Edmure for not being a mind-reader.

Keep in mind that Catelyn is constantly singing his praises in her POV's, calling him brilliant and saying what a comforting presence he is. That will put some rose-colored glasses on certain fans.

[David Selig]

Plus her disdain for all bastards, not just Jon Snow ( as if they could help it.)

That's not true, BTW. She has a problem with one bastard.

Half the time I am reading about her, she is castigating or chastising someone for being foolish or whatever. She just seems to go way over the top sometimes,

Most of this in in her thoughts. IMO she showed remarkable restraint most of the time given that she was surrounded by fools and her good council was constantly ignored by people way dumber than her.

Hoster: Seems like a pompous and petty jerk to me really.

How could you tell? He doesn't even have a single scene with him being mentally there.

The worst though was sending the blackfish away, all because he didn't want to be married without his say-so. Seems like a pretty patronizing, imperious relationship to have with one's brother.

He didn't send the Blackfish away, he left on his own. And in a society where marriages are so crucial politically Hoster's annoyance at the Blackfish's refusals is quite understandable.

Brynden: I kinda like Brendyn. He is by far my favorite Tully. Just seems kind of bad-ass for escaping both the Red Wedding and Riverrun (as far as we know.) Still I didn't like how he was suspicious of Jon Snow ( just because he was a bastard?) and I think the Brotherhood without Banners thought he was sort of a snob.

The Blackfish doesn't know Jon Snow is the main character in an epic fantasy and normal logic doesn't apply to him. Of course he is suspicious, a bastard being chosen at 16 to lead the NW after House Stark was destroyed (so it couldn't be explained as a favour for the Lord of Winterfell) is highly suspicious.

When did the BWB even mentioned him, BTW?

[hear me bore]

2) Most of the time, people around Catelyn are being foolish. Examples are Renly holding a freaking Melee in the middle of a war, Robb marrying Jeyne Westerling and sending away Theon Greyjoy and Edmure bringing peasants into a castle that could be held under siege at any moment (but I thought it was extremely sweet of him and love him for it). Brienne doesn't think she's aggravating, rather she thinks Cat is one of the few people who were ever kind to her. As for disdain for all bastards, where is that coming from? She does resent Mya Stone for a moment, but only because she feels guilty for Jon Snow. Later she even pities Mya, thinking that she is as full of dreams as Sansa. And for Jon Snow, Catelyn wasn't obliged to love him. He was her husband's bastards, a constant reminder that he was unfaithful to her. Would I havee been ecstatic if Catelyn loved Jon? Yes. Do I hate her for not doing so? No.

Lol. It must be so hard for her to be so much smarter than everyone else. It sucks being the only adult. Luckily she demonstrated her cool, calculated thinking throughout the series.

[Red Tiger]

That's not true, BTW. She has a problem with one bastard.

Not entirely, read the chapter where she meets Mya Stone, she doesn't treat Mya with hostility but she instantly becomes a lot colder when she realizes the girl is a bastard.

[David Selig]

Not entirely, read the chapter where she meets Mya Stone, she doesn't treat Mya with hostility but she instantly becomes a lot colder when she realizes the girl is a bastard.

People keep misinterpreting this scene. She reacts at first because she is reminded of Jon Snow, the one bastard she has a problem with.

Catelyn had nothing against this girl, but suddenly she could not help but think of Ned’s bastard on the Wall, and the thought made her angry and guilty, both at once.

[Blackfish Tully]

Ned Stark would have exceuted the Umbers and karstarks and those loyal to their cause. I don't think he'd kill innocent people. He's not Tywin Lannister.

I'm sure that Hoster would have executed Lord Goodbrook if he could find him but killing a Lord without killing some innocent people to get to him is impossible. Hoster Tully is fighting a war with the future of the Riverlands at stake he had no choice but to attack Lord Goodbrook's villages . Ned Stark would have done the same.

[Blackfish Tully]

Brynden: if you want to read ASOIAF like action book and evaluate characters based on how badass they are, that's your choice. Personally, I think him a bit of jerk - for stubbornly clinging to RR's defense when nothing could be gained by battle, except for throwing countless lives. Or for joining Robb in criticizing Edmure for not being a mind-reader.

The Freys had just brutally murdered over 3000 people at a wedding and you think that the Blackfish should have just surrendered the castle to them? Once he surrenders the castle he would lose any leverage he has and the Freys would be able to do whatever they want to him and his men. By holding the castle he is able to make a plan with Edmure and get terms with Jaimie and escape so he clearly gains a lot that he would not have if he surrendered like you think he should have.

[lady jellybean]

The only tully I kind of like is the blackfish amd I cooled on him considerable with his comment about jon.

I found cat snobby, unpleasant and judgemental.

Lysa, well shes just insane. Edmure was caring to the small folk butnot the brightest crayon in the box. And holster was cruel. all in all they were an unpleasant family.

[Knight Of Winter]

The Freys had just brutally murdered over 3000 people at a wedding and you think that the Blackfish should have just surrendered the castle to them? Once he surrenders the castle he would lose any leverage he has and the Freys would be able to do whatever they want to him and his men. By holding the castle he is able to make a plan with Edmure and get terms with Jaimie and escape so he clearly gains a lot that he would not have if he surrendered like you think he should have.

Pray, what leverage over them does he currently have - Jeyne Westerling? Do you think Lannisters or Freys will care if she lives or not? Any other?

The point I was trying to make how he stubbornly chooses to fight a battle where there's nothing to get from it. He either chooses between a) surrendering RR to Jaime without any losses. Lannister control the castle or b ) Jaime assaults RR, leading to thousands of deaths on bboth sides. In the end, Lannisters control the castle. Again, there aren't any hopes of Stark victory at this point, so BF really gains nothing from clinging to his decision.

Btw, if his plan was to escape during surrender, he could have done it without Edmure.