Whats up with House Tully?

[Ramsay Gimp]

What you're noticing is just typical Noble snobbery, plus some family dynamics. There are are much worse Houses in both of those regards. Think how little the Greyjoys, Lannisters, etc. care about the smallfolk, and how dysfunctional their families are.

Edmure actually cares more about his people than most lords. While Cat may be overly harsh with him, it's clear they still love each other.

[TheNinjaDC]

House Tully reminds me of a middle class family trying to fit in at a millionaires ball.

They mean well, and have good ethics, but lack the presence to do much besides hitch up their daughters as trophy wives.

I think this ties back to they were handed their seat, and did not earn it. The same could be true for the Tyrel's, but their family history as close stewards to the Gardeners gave them a vice president feel. Same for the Greyjoys.

[Blackfish Tully]

Pray, what leverage over them does he currently have - Jeyne Westerling? Do you think Lannisters or Freys will care if she lives or not? Any other?

The point I was trying to make how he stubbornly chooses to fight a battle where there's nothing to get from it. He either chooses between a) surrendering RR to Jaime without any losses. Lannister control the castle or b ) Jaime assaults RR, leading to thousands of deaths on bboth sides. In the end, Lannisters control the castle. Again, there aren't any hopes of Stark victory at this point, so BF really gains nothing from clinging to his decision.

Btw, if his plan was to escape during surrender, he could have done it without Edmure.

How about the leverage of the Lannisters and Freys losing thousands of men trying to take Riverrun? They might lose thousands of men and still not take the castle. Just surrendering the castle when the Freys and lannisters show up would have been the height of stupidity . I believe that the only reason he ended up surrendering it was because he and Edmure came up with a plan and they would not have been able to come up with that plan unless the Blackfish had been stubborn and the Freys and Lannisters were scared to attack him.

[Seaworth'sShipmate]

What you're noticing is just typical Noble snobbery, plus some family dynamics. There are are much worse Houses in both of those regards. Think how little the Greyjoys, Lannisters, etc. care about the smallfolk, and how dysfunctional their families are.

Edmure actually cares more about his people than most lords. While Cat may be overly harsh with him, it's clear they still love each other.

I suppose I mean snobbery in a different way. Not so much snobbery at people who are "low born" or people who aren't from the finest families, but sort of a strict standard of morality or "doing the right thing" and little regard for people who don't follow that.

They seem the type to look down on dishonorable or "sinful" things: being dishonest, whoring, cheating to get ahead, and yes.. having bastards or raising them. They just seem a bit insufferable and "holier than thou" in a way, that the Tyrells, Lannisters and Martells aren't ( to be fair the Arryns + vale lords are 10 x worse in this regard)

[Michael Snow]

Aw, come on... They aren't so bad and you know it.

Edmure is a softhearted dumb-dumb who really means well. The kind of guy that lets refugees stream into his castle when he's beset on all sides by enemies and might need all of his supplies. He's a sweetie, and not all that bright.

The Blashfish is an awesome dude who loves dudes. Gotta love a strong, non-stereotypical gay character, right? Brynden made a career and a legend for himself by being a wily and skilled soldier. He's a Westerosi special forces sort of fella, and he obviously has a lot of affection for his family. Gotta love the Blackfish.

Yes, she's definitely a pretty horrible character by the time she gets to us in the course of the narrative... She was put through some serious trauma, though. She was forced to abort her lover's baby and then forced to marry an old man she didn't like, being treated like soiled goods and a burden on Arryn's honor that he bore for the sake of Tully swords. Lysa hasn't had such an easy time of things. I've been pretty goddamn surly over a hell of a lot less.

Catelyn is... well... I'm not even going to go into this one here. But suffice to say that my opinion on Catelyn Tully-Stark is that she's unfairly maligned on these boards and in the fandom, like most (all) of the female leads.

Hoster Tully sounds like he was kind of a dick, this much I shall grant you.

Conclusion? I'm down for Tully, bro.

[Jez Targaryen]

Fear the fish, dude. Touch the trout and you gonna get burned.

[Justin Amey]

The North believes in the Old Gods, Riverrun Believes the Seven Faith. That right makes Cat different in North. Those two realms never interact all that kind of level Prior to Robert's Rebellion The North Never married outside the North

[The Santa of House Claus]

I agree with you about Edmure and Lysa, but that is about it.

While I am not the biggest fan of Cat, I cut her a little slack considering how much strain she was under for a good chunk of the series, not to mention all her grief. She knew she was being to hard on Edmure, but I dismiss that due to her grief and being his older sister. As for her time down with Renly, well, I always felt she was in the right there. Renly should have marched straight to King's Landing and sacked it, not lolly-gaging up the rose road. You would think someone like Randall Tarlly would have pushed for a quicker march, maybe he did and it didn't matter, but it just seemed like Renly and Co really did not take it all that seriously. I can not like her due to her treatment of Jon, but basically after Ned's murder, I have a good deal of sympathy for her.

For Hoster, well we do not know a ton about him, just certain events really. As to making Lysa drink Moontea and marry Jon Arryn, well, by todays standards thats just wrong, but by the standards of that world, there really is not anything wrong with that. The main reason to have daughters for a high lord is to marry them off to make or strength alliances and connections. Lysa's value drops immensely when it becomes known that she is not a madden. It maybe wrong to think like that, but it is what it is. Jon Arryn was still and good man, it is not like he was Walder Frey (or any Frey really). With the village, I need more information, we only really have one person's version of events, it would seem that the riverlands have the most quarrelsome lords of all the different kingdoms. And with Blackfish, the two quarreled all the time, the Blackfish was as much at fault as Hoster.

The Blackfish, well he is just badass and one of my favorite characters, but he is stubborn and he did basically disobey his liege lords direct command to marry.

They may not have liked the Lannisters much prior to the war, but that probably stems from the Lannisters not joining the Rebellion until the end and probably many small quarrels over boarders going back hundreds of years.

As for looking down on the Freys, well they are scum and deserve little and less respect.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

As for looking down on the Freys, well they are scum and deserve little and less respect.

The Tullys don't have to respect them, but they can't then complain that the Freys did not save them at the start of the war.

[The Santa of House Claus]

The Tullys don't have to respect them, but they can't then complain that the Freys did not save them at the start of the war.

I would not call sending his men to RIverrun as his liege lord ordered instead of being slow off the start "saving them." I doubt having another 2,000-4,000 troops really would have mattered, as it was Edmure in command. But you do have a point.

[shadow282]

Pray, what leverage over them does he currently have - Jeyne Westerling? Do you think Lannisters or Freys will care if she lives or not? Any other?

The point I was trying to make how he stubbornly chooses to fight a battle where there's nothing to get from it. He either chooses between a) surrendering RR to Jaime without any losses. Lannister control the castle or b ) Jaime assaults RR, leading to thousands of deaths on bboth sides. In the end, Lannisters control the castle. Again, there aren't any hopes of Stark victory at this point, so BF really gains nothing from clinging to his decision.

Btw, if his plan was to escape during surrender, he could have done it without Edmure.

Look at it from his perspective. He's surrounded by Freys and Lannisters right after the RW proved that both of them are willing to break their word and guest right and slaughter innocent and unarmed people. There's absolutely no reason for Blackfish to think that they will honor any surrender they give, and that they won't just slaughter all his men when he lets them inside the castle.

So his choices are:

A) Surrender his excellent strategic position and trust in the people who JUST PROVED that they can in no way be trusted.

B ) Make them undertake an incredibly damaging attack on Riverrun.

Not surrendering was the smartest choice.

[Universal Sword Donor]

The Tullys don't have to respect them, but they can't then complain that the Freys did not save them at the start of the war.

Right, they sure were sticking to their oaths of fealty.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Right, they sure were sticking to their oaths of fealty.

Which oath of fealty would that be, to the Crown or to the Tullys?

The Tullys certainly had no problem abandoning their oaths to the Targaryens when some juicy marriage alliances was put on the table.

[Fury Burns]

This will be an unpopular opinion, but House Tully is among my least favorite of the Westeros Houses. Though (most) of the Tullys have a strong sense of ethics and duty, they also have a poisonous, unpleasant vibe to them, that Im trying to figure out. They seem quite traditional and conservative. They are all about "Honor" and doing what is "right" as they understand it, but with that I think also comes a narrow minded snobbery toward those who do not fit their mold of what is "right". This seems to include bastards, Lannisters (even before the war started), and "new money" houses like the Freys. Lets just examine this self righteous, odd group.

Catelyn: Good person overall but also with a petty and unpleasant side. Half the time I am reading about her, she is castigating or chastising someone for being foolish or whatever. She just seems to go way over the top sometimes, and, though she loves her kids and believes in doing right by others, also seems like sort of an aggravating, unpleasant person who I wouldn't want to be around. Plus her disdain for all bastards, not just Jon Snow ( as if they could help it.)

Hoster: Seems like a pompous and petty jerk to me really. He forced his daughter to have an abortion and married her off to a man older than he was. Also burnt a village whose lord defied him. The worst though was sending the blackfish away, all because he didn't want to be married without his say-so. Seems like a pretty patronizing, imperious relationship to have with one's brother.

Edmure: Not unpleasant at all really, but kind of stupid. Listening to him blabber on his way to the Twins, really made me think he was just Cat's dumb kid brother.

Lysa: One of the more poisonous and malignant characters in the series. True, she's motivated by a lack of love, and obsession with an old lover, but she is among my least favorite characters, right up there with Viserys and Cersei.

Brynden: I kinda like Brendyn. He is by far my favorite Tully. Just seems kind of bad-ass for escaping both the Red Wedding and Riverrun (as far as we know.) Still I didn't like how he was suspicious of Jon Snow ( just because he was a bastard?) and I think the Brotherhood without Banners thought he was sort of a snob.

Is anyone else getting what Im seeing here? What could be up with the Tullys?

Catelyn: Sure it's not right that she blames bastards for their parents sins, but that's just what happens when your husband has a bastard and you really loved him... if you still want to love him you'll blame the bastard, if you don't then you won't care either way about the bastard... so better in the long run she hated Jon.

Hoster: Um... that's the way it works when you are a lord-paramount, or any lord, if you say something to one of your family or vassals they have to do it (within reason) which includes marriage, so Brynden not obeying him is a bad thing to do, and dishonorable since Hoster was the head of the family. Tywin destroyed all of the Reynes and Tarbecks... so I really wouldn't care much if Hoster burnt a village down to display authority, compared to Tywin destroying major noble houses. Also, that's how it works in war, if your vassals rise up against you, you destroy their villages... you don't just pass up the small villages that pay the main lord taxes... killing them will hurt the lord... not killing them would be a benefit to the lord against you and a weakness for you. Also, if he had just decided "nah, screw it, if my little girl wants to screw my entire retinue of soldiers and sire me a second army... sure.... I don't care... and why should her future husband care if she has bastards that could be a threat to him and me because they would have claim to my kingdom... nah, better just let her be happy" ......... nope......... not happening.

Edmure: yeah he's pretty dumb in the tactical range of things... but still a good guy, kinda like Hallis Mollen who just repeats the obvious, but Hallis isn't a bad guy either, so I'm 100% fine with Edmure.

Lysa: Yeah she's a crazy bitch (also, if you know she's a crazy bitch, then why did you care about Hoster making her abort her bastard baby???)

Brynden: Most of the time bastards are a big problem. Jon could decide "hur dur dur, I got a claim on Winterfell because my daddy was the lord, now I'm gonna press it with a small army and fight my brubber Robbbbbbbb.........." for all Brynden knew.... because Brynden didn't know him, perfectly acceptable. (Sounds like anyone who doesn't like Jon is a bad-guy in your book, Catelyn and Brynden)

No, not seeing what you're seeing. Except for Lysa, I like all of the Tully's and think they are one of the more respectable and good houses in the series. Nothing is up with them.

[Minsc]

but sort of a strict standard of morality or "doing the right thing" and little regard for people who don't follow that.

It is a bad thing to look down on people for performing immoral actions? Moreover, how that is different from Ned's general stance?

The Tullys don't have to respect them, but they can't then complain that the Freys did not save them at the start of the war.

And if the Freys want to act like disloyal douches they shouldn't complain when Hoster doesn't respect them.

Finally, is there some reason why the Tullys should like or be super cool about Jon Snow besides fan favoritism of him as a fictional character?

[juanml82]

Edmure Tully not only is one of the few Lords who remember he has a duty to defend his people in exchange for his wealth and privileges, he's also the only known commander who showed Westeros what happens when Tywin Lannister goes to battle against men instead of children - he gets his golden ass kicked so hard it sent him and his entire army flying all the way to King's Landing.

As for the Blackfish, if you read the description of Riverrun in TWOIAF, the place simply can not be taken by force. It's not just surrounded by a moat. It's an island, and it has never fallen in battle. So in truth, he has the right of it. Prepare for a long siege, wait for winter or disease to take care of his enemies. And while he couldn't know, chances are that the siege would have to be lifted as additional manpower could end up being required to fight the Ironborn, the Golden Company and maybe Dorne and the Vale. When that happens, he suddenly has a lot more of bargaining power.

[Fury Burns]

Which oath of fealty would that be, to the Crown or to the Tullys?

The Tullys certainly had no problem abandoning their oaths to the Targaryens when some juicy marriage alliances was put on the table.

Dude ermagerd you're so totally right, the Tully's, Starks, Baratheons, Arryns, and Lannisters all should have just let the Mad King take a shit in their mouths while he pissed on their dinner and had his armies surprise buttsex attack them while they weren't looking, and let him rape their wives, murder their sons and burn their fathers... seriously......... I think the Mad King is just a LITTLE BIT worse than Hoster Tully...............................

[thelittledragonthatcould]

And if the Freys want to act like disloyal douches they shouldn't complain when Hoster doesn't respect them.

Hoster didn't respect them long before the War of the Five Kings, and likely before the events of the Roberts Rebellion (when the Tullys themselves were being disloyal).

[Minsc]

Hoster didn't respect them long before the War of the Five Kings, and likely before the events of the Roberts Rebellion (when the Tullys themselves were being disloyal).

And the Freys likely acted as dickish douches even before RR (seeing how Walder was such an obnoxious child that even Dunk thought about throwing him down a well). Moreover, Frey's major complaint came from him whining about not receiving something he wasn't entitled to.

[Fury Burns]

Hoster didn't respect them long before the War of the Five Kings, and likely before the events of the Roberts Rebellion (when the Tullys themselves were being disloyal).

"Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." -Martin Luther King Jr.

So, if your liege lord doesn't respect you... the solution is to murder his daughter, grandson, capture his son, destroy his armies, kick out his brother, and take his lands.... seems fine to me...........

Seriously if the Frey's want respect, then they should be respectable. Walder was is and always will be a dick. He was alive before Hoster, and was lord all of the time Hoster was, so I'd say Walder did some shit that made Hoster angry with him.