Jump to content

Opinions on the Rains of Castamere?


XSarellaX

Recommended Posts

Except he has engineered the whole thing so of course he had his army ready before they had any clue anything was going on - he would have been well aware that they cannot put together a full fighting force in the short time frame he gave them. He knew he was about to fight; they didn't. Creating that surprise took some strategic (among other things) thinking, certainly, but since I always thought it was the other way around, with Tywin the one having to deal with an armed rebellion at short notice and winning nonetheless, I found it underwhelming.

Well, I think that was the point. But fair enough. Although if Tarbeck Hall had held out longer, or the Red Lion didn't rush to relieve it like he did, things could have been different.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

. The woiaf is correct in having her crushed by Tarbeck Hall falling down, while the reading had her hung. The woiaf fits better with the novels.

Yes, we're told that one of the only times Lord Tywin smiled was when Tarbeck Hall came crashing down on her.

But, hanging her would have been in character, I think it's interesting that Tywin has no qualms about inflicting the full horrors of war on members of his own class, in addition to the Smallfolk.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Except he has engineered the whole thing so of course he had his army ready before they had any clue anything was going on - he would have been well aware that they cannot put together a full fighting force in the short time frame he gave them. He knew he was about to fight; they didn't. Creating that surprise took some strategic (among other things) thinking,

And it also took treachery on his part, by picking a completely unjustifiable quarrel.

How did he prepare his collection of his initial army of 500 knights and 3000 men-at-arms and crossbowmen? The more he prepared, the bigger the risk that someone tips off Tytos, or Tarbecks and Reynes, or both....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And it also took treachery on his part, by picking a completely unjustifiable quarrel.

Well, the problem was whatever the Reynes and Tarbecks did Tytos forgave them.

Tywin's summons were at least a 'heads up, I'm coming for you,' so they did not need to be so totally unprepared.

How did he prepare his collection of his initial army of 500 knights and 3000 men-at-arms and crossbowmen? The more he prepared, the bigger the risk that someone tips off Tytos, or Tarbecks and Reynes, or both....

I think the secret gathering of so many men, and the swift conclusion of those two sieges, indicate it was a very efficient well planned operation.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Of course there were methods of ending the conflict without that much suffering; there were even methods of providing a show of force without going as absurdly far as he did.



Tywin is just not interested in them. He lacks any compassionate bone in his body. Even if the Reynes' terms had been completely agreeable, he would have refused them anyway.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

What's curious is that when Joffrey is being a jackass, and wants all the river lords who had supported Robb to be executed, Tywin tells him that when a man yields and bends the knee, it's better to raise him up and welcome him back into the fold. Yet, here Tywin doesn't even give the Reynes a chance. I wonder if he had regrets about his act late in his life.



And though the end of the Reynes is horrific, prior to reading this book, I was sad about their fall, but they kinda had it coming. Ser Roger and his brother and sister were pieces of shit. Th children didn't deserve to die, though.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

What's curious is that when Joffrey is being a jackass, and wants all the river lords who had supported Robb to be executed, Tywin tells him that when a man yields and bends the knee, it's better to raise him up and welcome him back into the fold. Yet, here Tywin doesn't even give the Reynes a chance. I wonder if he had regrets about his act late in his life.

And though the end of the Reynes is horrific, prior to reading this book, I was sad about their fall, but they kinda had it coming. Ser Roger and his brother and sister were pieces of shit. Th children didn't deserve to die, though.

Tywin is brutal and I don't think he has any regrets, he flaunts the Rains of Casamere song and is extremely proud of it. I imagine it was played at his request during the Red Wedding while concocting to violate guest rights.

I have no doubt that if he was Hand at the time of the Battle of the Bells, Rob Baratheon would be dead and that village would have been burnt to the ground and that if Selmy didn't offer to go on the covert mission to rescue the kidnapped Aerys solo, Aerys would be dead.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What's curious is that when Joffrey is being a jackass, and wants all the river lords who had supported Robb to be executed, Tywin tells him that when a man yields and bends the knee, it's better to raise him up and welcome him back into the fold. Yet, here Tywin doesn't even give the Reynes a chance. I wonder if he had regrets about his act late in his life.

And though the end of the Reynes is horrific, prior to reading this book, I was sad about their fall, but they kinda had it coming. Ser Roger and his brother and sister were pieces of shit. Th children didn't deserve to die, though.

The situations were completely different. Fighting a war for the Iron Throne is not the same as working to restore the prestige and honor of your house by eliminating a dangerous internal threat. Eliminating all of the River Lords would have created huge power vacuums and provided more instability. Besides, Tywin was absolutely right (using the same quote that you did), if you are not flexible enough to allow men to bend the knee, no man will ever bend the knee again.

Tywin is brutal and I don't think he has any regrets, he flaunts the Rains of Casamere song and is extremely proud of it. I imagine it was played at his request during the Red Wedding while concocting to violate guest rights.

I have no doubt that if he was Hand at the time of the Battle of the Bells, Rob Baratheon would be dead and that village would have been burnt to the ground and that if Selmy didn't offer to go on the covert mission to rescue the kidnapped Aerys solo, Aerys would be dead.

I think that was Lord Walder’s idea all his own. However, I totally agree about the BoB’s. As Blackheart (Myles Toyne) told Jon Connington, Tywin would never have cared for the glory of fighting Robert man-to-man. He recognized Robert as the heart of the rebellion and would have acted accordingly. Instead of attacking the town, he would have burnt it to the ground with Robert in it, and then offered pardons to Ned, Jon Arryn and Hoster Tully.

Aerys refused to summon Tywin after the failures of Lords Chelstead and Connington, and he paid for it with his life and crown.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What's curious is that when Joffrey is being a jackass, and wants all the river lords who had supported Robb to be executed, Tywin tells him that when a man yields and bends the knee, it's better to raise him up and welcome him back into the fold. Yet, here Tywin doesn't even give the Reynes a chance. I wonder if he had regrets about his act late in his life.

And though the end of the Reynes is horrific, prior to reading this book, I was sad about their fall, but they kinda had it coming. Ser Roger and his brother and sister were pieces of shit. Th children didn't deserve to die, though.

Tywin will probably allow rebels one chance to bend the knee, confess their treason, and be readmitted to the King's peace. The difference is that Tytos gave the Reynes and Tarbecks multiple chances, and each time they went back to their old ways.

Another point:-

Tywin is sending a very mixed message to the Spicer/Westerling family by making Ser Rolph Lord of Castamere. It's a promotion, but he's also telling them that he hasn't forgotten that Lord Gawen and Jeyne switched sides, and if the family's loyalty should waver again, remember what's underneath Castamere.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I get why Tywin did the things he did, but that was BRUTAL. Was there another way to deal with the Reynes and Tarbecks without drowning everyone?

Well yes, storming would have been possible but far more bloody. But given that Tytos in the past had forgiven offences without much improvement on the behalf of the Tarbecks and the Reynes they might not have learned the lesson very well. I will however agree that everyone didn't need to die. Just kill all the adult males, send most of the women to the Silent Sisters and all the sons to the Watch. The daughters can be betrothaled to the sons of loyal men and the lands divided among these.

Also as I think it was mentioned the book is VERY different from the reading done previously in how very important details are left out nor not elaborated on. For example in the reading Tywin gives both the Tarbecks and Reynes offers to surrender and they basically laugh at him and think they'll get away with everything once more.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tywin was affronted and offended by the way that Tytos behaved. He did what he felt needed to be done...by providing a demonstration of what Lions were capable of. While Tywin's actions are brutal, they are effective. If the Reynes and Tarbecks had done as ordered by House Lannister, there would have been no need in squashing a rebellion.

:agree: Pretty much this.

I guess he was tired of seeing his House and his father getting mocked by everybody. He set the terms, and both Houses didn't deign to meet them in the least.

Tywin was no smiling lion like his father.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The situations were completely different. Fighting a war for the Iron Throne is not the same as working to restore the prestige and honor of your house by eliminating a dangerous internal threat. Eliminating all of the River Lords would have created huge power vacuums and provided more instability. Besides, Tywin was absolutely right (using the same quote that you did), if you are not flexible enough to allow men to bend the knee, no man will ever bend the knee again.

I think that was Lord Walder’s idea all his own. However, I totally agree about the BoB’s. As Blackheart (Myles Toyne) told Jon Connington, Tywin would never have cared for the glory of fighting Robert man-to-man. He recognized Robert as the heart of the rebellion and would have acted accordingly. Instead of attacking the town, he would have burnt it to the ground with Robert in it, and then offered pardons to Ned, Jon Arryn and Hoster Tully.

Aerys refused to summon Tywin after the failures of Lords Chelstead and Connington, and he paid for it with his life and crown.

All very nice, buy I doubt Arys would have flown with the pardons for the trio. Unless Aerys had been removed as king, Tywin's solution really wouldn't have worked.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well I'm not sure we're supposed to think Yandel omits things because the reading was never canon. Having said that, it really is just omissions, rather than GrrM changing the story, so I sort of still take the reading as semi-canon unless its contradicted. The one example of that is the fate of Lady Tarbeck. The woiaf is correct in having her crushed by Tarbeck Hall falling down, while the reading had her hung. The woiaf fits better with the novels.

In one of the interviews about WOIAF GRRM told that when he was writing about Rains of Castamere, he thought that he can write an entire novel based on this, or even a trilogy and he didn't really like the WOIAF format to tell this story. May be he omited some information from WOIAF to save it for a potential future novel? :dunno:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In one of the interviews about WOIAF GRRM told that when he was writing about Rains of Castamere, he thought that he can write an entire novel based on this, or even a trilogy and he didn't really like the WOIAF format to tell this story. May be he omited some information from WOIAF to save it for a potential future novel? :dunno:

That's interesting.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This reading you guys are talking about was presumably an early draft which GRRM later changed. IMO only the stuff that was actually published in the book should count as canon.



Given that all the Reynes and Tarbecks were dead and powerless, while Tywin was alive and powerful at the time Yandel was writing, he had no incentive to tilt the narrative against Tywin - indeed, his incentive was to tilt it in Tywin's favor, yet he still comes off as a raging asshole. That's enough to condemn Tywin in my book.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

This reading you guys are talking about was presumably an early draft which GRRM later changed. IMO only the stuff that was actually published in the book should count as canon.

Not changed, for the most part actually. Only the fall of Tarbeck Hall was changed somewhat. It was just omitted. I regard it as semi-canon. For instance, the woiaf says the Reynes sent terms to Tywin but Tywin ignored them. The same happened in the reading, except we were told what the terms were.

Given that all the Reynes and Tarbecks were dead and powerless, while Tywin was alive and powerful at the time Yandel was writing, he had no incentive to tilt the narrative against Tywin - indeed, his incentive was to tilt it in Tywin's favor, yet he still comes off as a raging asshole. That's enough to condemn Tywin in my book.

It is clearly not meant to be omitted, no.

Not too sure Yandel himself tilts for Tywin but Pycelle, his main source was very favourable (out of genuine conviction - apparently) to Tywin.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not changed, for the most part actually. Only the fall of Tarbeck Hall was changed somewhat. It was just omitted. I regard it as semi-canon. For instance, the woiaf says the Reynes sent terms to Tywin but Tywin ignored them. The same happened in the reading, except we were told what the terms were.

It is clearly not meant to be omitted, no.

Not too sure Yandel himself tilts for Tywin but Pycelle, his main source was very favourable (out of genuine conviction - apparently) to Tywin.

Omission or alteration, it's a distinction without a difference. If GRRM cut something from his draft he cut it on purpose, and once cut, it's gone and for all intents and purposes it didn't happen. Unless another book is published later that says it did happen, or GRRM gives an SSM saying it did, I'm going to consider it non-canon.

Certainly Pycelle's influence explains some of the slant, especially in the account of Aerys's reign pre-Rebellion, but Yandel's obscenely biased account of the Sack of King's Landing - not acknowledging any civilian casualties except Elia and her children and making it sound like those were some tragic accident that Tywin had nothing to do with - can't be attributed to Pycelle alone. There were thousands of witnesses to those events, and Pycelle was not even the only maester present, so the Citadel ought to have several accounts, including from some who were serving Northern lords and had no reason to be Tywin fanboys. The slant in that part is a deliberate choice on Yandel's part, proving that Yandel was willing to bias his narrative in Tywin's favor. So if the narrative on the Rains of Castamere had any slant, it would be for Tywin, not against him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...