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King Blackwood

Rhoynar's Return to Mother Rhoyne

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Would anyone else like to see the Rhoynar in Dorne return to their homeland and rebuild?



They left because the Valyrians threatened them with Genocide, but now that Valyria has fallen and Volantis has largely given up retaking Valyria's mantle, I think they should return to the River Rhoyne where they were an advanced and independent civilization. Princess Arianne Nymeros Martell could even be the one to lead the exodus. Dorne could be left to House Yronwood, who has chafed under what they see as foreign rule for the last 700 years.


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No.



Why should they? They've been Westerosi for 1,000 years. Mother Rhoyne isn't their homeland ans hasn't been for 50 generations.


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I think they're quite invested in Dorne at this point.


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The Valyrians did a heck of a number on the Rhoyne. While according to the new book, they had one awesome civilization along that river, it was burned to ash under the dragons, and its loaded with vengeful ghosts of the past, the Sorrows and the greyscale spawned of there for one. The magic that they used to employ out there, so very critical to their old civilization, is gone as well, and while a river is nice and all, it's a lost homeland, and no one's resettled it for a reason.


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No.

Why should they? They've been Westerosi for 1,000 years. Mother Rhoyne isn't their homeland ans hasn't been for 50 generations.

700 years, but that's just nitpicking I suppose.

The Orphans of the Greenblood want to go back more than anything, from what I've gathered.

It just seems like the Rhoynar had a thriving civilization, and now they lack independence, and they aren't exactly thriving in Dorne. Their living conditions are piss poor in Dorne in comparison to the grandeur of their city-states along Mother Rhoyne.

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The Valyrians did a heck of a number on the Rhoyne. While according to the new book, they had one awesome civilization along that river, it was burned to ash under the dragons, and its loaded with vengeful ghosts of the past, the Sorrows and the greyscale spawned of there for one. The magic that they used to employ out there, so very critical to their old civilization, is gone as well, and while a river is nice and all, it's a lost homeland, and no one's resettled it for a reason.

Volantis and it's colonies upriver are doing quite well.

Chroyane is a hopeless ruin, but that was just one of their many city-states. They could rebuild any number of them, or start a new one.

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Volantis and it's colonies upriver are doing quite well.

Chroyane is a hopeless ruin, but that was just one of their many city-states. They could rebuild any number of them, or start a new one.

They'd still have to start from scratch on any of those projects, and unlike Volantis, they're not a wealthy trading state, which means they're at terrible risk. The Rhoyne borders the Dothraki, and that means that any endeavor out there is pretty much doomed to tangle with a Khalassar or two on the hunt for slaves.

Their magic is dead, and their religion watered down from the old days. Why would they want to throw themselves into horrible danger and risk enslavement, disease, and the myriad risks of moving a population from one place to another? Their exodus and years of travel were just plain awful, and those memories are just as prominent as the 'good old days'.

Dorne may not be the most comfortable of the kingdoms, but they've lived there for centuries, and their blood is as prominent and native as the Andals.

- On a sidenote though, it would be awesome if with the return of magic in the form of the Dany's dragons, Dorne started to experience a resurgence in the old river magic of the Rhoynar. It would give the kingdom an entirely new, awesome, dimension.

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Their magic is dead, and their religion watered down from the old days. Why would they want to throw themselves into horrible danger and risk enslavement, disease, and the myriad risks of moving a population from one place to another? Their exodus and years of travel were just plain awful, and those memories are just as prominent as the 'good old days'.

Why? I think that it is worth risking one's life to to live freely in one's homeland. But I've taken some flak for using the ideals of independence as my argument before, so I'd say they should risk it because the Rhoyne and it's headwaters are much richer than the deserts of Dorne. They would struggle at first, but I think in the end, they would be better off.

Also, their exodus was awful because they did not know their destination. "Returning home" would be a much better journey than attempting to find a place to accept them, and mortally failing multiple times.

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Why? I think that it is worth risking one's life to to live freely in one's homeland. But I've taken some flak for using the ideals of independence as my argument before, so I'd say they should risk it because the Rhoyne and it's headwaters are much richer than the deserts of Dorne. They would struggle at first, but I think in the end, they would be better off.

Also, their exodus was awful because they did not know their destination. "Returning home" would be a much better journey than attempting to find a place to accept them, and mortally failing multiple times.

There is an argument to be made for the orphans of the Greenblood doing that. They're the least assimilated of all the Rhoynish, and their culture does seem to revolve around the subject of returning, but for the descendants of Nymeria, and those that intermingled with the First Men of Dorne, Dorne is their home, it is their blood. They're as much Rhoynish as they are Dornish, moreso really, as Dorne (but for the mountainous regions), came to be defined by the Rhoynar. They were the ones that forged the kingdom into a unified whole, they were the ones that imposed their culture and beliefs, and for most of Dorne, that's not just an accepted reality, but a welcome one.

That is, they're not a persecuted ethnic minority in desperate search of a land where their culture and religion dominate, they're not a nation without a state. The orphans may depart one day, as apparently they never quite gave up on the dream, but while Dorne is hard, Essos is harder, especially when starting from nothing.

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The Heads of House Yronwood claimed to be the High Kings of Dorne, were the most powerful, and ruled a huge part of it. They were, and are, Dornish before the Rhoynar ever arrived. In the history of Dorne and the Dornish, which stretches back since the First Men crossed the Arm of Dorne into Westeros twelve thousand years ago, the Rhoynar are recent settlers; settlers in a land where they are worse off.


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All the aristocratic houses are well mingled at this point. Anders Yronwood, for all his blondness, probably has as much Rhoynar blood as Doran has Andal blood.



Do you think that the entire aristocracy of the United Kingdom should go back to France too? Or maybe all the Maori should go back to Tahiti?


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All the aristocratic houses are well mingled at this point. Anders Yronwood, for all his blondness, probably has as much Rhoynar blood as Doran has Andal blood.

Do you think that the entire aristocracy of the United Kingdom should go back to France too? Or maybe all the Maori should go back to Tahiti?

Blondness? The Yyronwoods are a proud First Men House, and the Martells were an Andal House before Nymeria. So that part is just false.

I'm not a fan of aristocracy period, and that's not what I'm talking about, but you do realize that the line of William the Conquerer no longer rules the United Kingdom, right? So your point holds no validity.

As for the Maori… What the hell? Western anthropology postulates that the Maori originated in Eastern Polynesia, but the Maori don't have a cultural history consisting of an exodus from the homeland (Tahiti? No). The Rhoynar absolutely do. The Maori were also the first to arrive in New Zealand. The Rhoynar were absolutely not the first to arrive in Dorne.

So nice try, trying to bring in real world "examples" that hold no relevance.

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I feel what you're saying and I completely agree that a displaced people should go back to their homeland, but most of the Rhoynish/Dornish people have made Dorne their home. If more of them wanted to go back to Essos, then I'm all for an exodus to Rhoyne.



The thing I'm against though is the Martells giving up the kingdom for ruins in Essos. If just a branch of the house led the return, I could see it happening.


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Blondness? The Yyronwoods are a proud First Men House, and the Martells were an Andal House before Nymeria. So that part is just false.

I'm not a fan of aristocracy period, and that's not what I'm talking about, but you do realize that the line of William the Conquerer no longer rules the United Kingdom, right? So your point holds no validity.

As for the Maori… What the hell? Western anthropology postulates that the Maori originated in Eastern Polynesia, but the Maori don't have a cultural history consisting of an exodus from the homeland (Tahiti? No). The Rhoynar absolutely do. The Maori were also the first to arrive in New Zealand. The Rhoynar were absolutely not the first to arrive in Dorne.

So nice try, trying to bring in real world "examples" that hold no relevance.

Last I checked, the Windsors are descended from William the Conqueror.They are also of German descent, and much of the English aristocracy is descended from Norman barons.

The Rhoynish have lived in Dorne for centuries. Why would the Dornish lords want to leave where they are already wealthy and powerful? Why would the Martells leave where they are already Princes? There is likely not anyone who is purely Rhoynish in Dorne, but rather mixed with Andal and First Men blood as well.

That is not without mentioning that trying to reclaim the Rhoyne would bring them into conflict with the Free Cities who currently control the Rhoyne: Volantis, Norvos, Qohor, and Pentos. Even if all of Dorne went, they would lack the resources and military strength to fight all four of the Free Cities coming from all four directions in a foreign land they don't know very.

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LOL, I'm completely strange to the idea that human beings should just move in flocks from one place to the other, separating themselves from other human beings, under the flag of a religion or 'nation'.



These nationalism/imperialism ideas are things from the past, a past which brought world wide wars, colonization/independence wars, supremacy fights in our real world. There's nothing rationale into leaving a country in which milions of people are having decent lives, and build upon their sufferance, pain, death and blood a new 'independent' kingdom. For what purpose? As in any other place on Earth, wealth would be distributed always in the same manner: some have large chunks of it, many have little of it. Except from 'slavery' cases in the past, the only people who gain from the spread of nationalism/closure ideas are wealthy people: just give a look at places where dictatorship is happening right now, or where trade is very limited with other countries. Wherever you go, it's always poor people who pay the largest price. But, by sticking all together, by living in a peaceful world dominated by trade and economy.. ..the common people are given better chances to have a decent live for them and their offspring, better health conditions, chances to dream and experience something more than a life or work.



No, the general interest of any common folk does not reside into migrating in millions to start from scratch and found a new civilization. Unless in such a place there are such conditions (like America, after it was discovered) of personal growth that it is worth the risk and pain. But in the latter case it's completely different from just migrating 'cause someone said it's a good idea to go back and grab cities lost 700 years ago. Their general interest is to keep growing their wealth in the place they are already living in, and having peaceful relationships with all other nations.



It's third millennium, let's accept that human beings are all member of a single flock, nation and world.


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To me this idea sounds pretty absurd (of course, no offense meant).



There are no Rhoynar in Westeros, except for a few visitors. Likewise there are no Europeans in the Americas except for tourists and expats (which are a tiny fraction of the total population).


The notion that "Rhoynar" from Dorne want to go back to Essos is roughly the same as that "Europeans" from the Americas want to return "home" to Europe.


I don't think it's very wide-spread among people from, say, Kansas, to want to return "home" to the countries their ancestors emigrated from 500 years ago (often people who were displaced in their countries of origin, and notably more recently than the Rhoynar exodus from Essos). And even though many Mexicans are currently presumably worse off than they'd be in Europe (due to the turmoil we hear from the news), I'm fairly certain that "going home" to Spain is not a common sentiment. They see themselves as Mexicans.


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Blondness? The Yyronwoods are a proud First Men House, and the Martells were an Andal House before Nymeria. So that part is just false.

I'm not a fan of aristocracy period, and that's not what I'm talking about, but you do realize that the line of William the Conquerer no longer rules the United Kingdom, right? So your point holds no validity.

As for the Maori… What the hell? Western anthropology postulates that the Maori originated in Eastern Polynesia, but the Maori don't have a cultural history consisting of an exodus from the homeland (Tahiti? No). The Rhoynar absolutely do. The Maori were also the first to arrive in New Zealand. The Rhoynar were absolutely not the first to arrive in Dorne.

So nice try, trying to bring in real world "examples" that hold no relevance.

Yes, Blondness. Anders Yronwood is blond.

My examples were more tongue-in-cheek than anything, but I do dispute the notion that they have NO validity. The largely French descended aristocracy of England consider themselves to be English the same way the largely Rhoynar descended aristocracy of Dorne is "Dornish", not "Rhoynar", not "Salty" or "Stoney", "Dornish". Dornish culture is an amalgamation of Rhoynish, Andal, and First Men traditions, not simply the transplantation of Rhoynish culture that certain houses were completely excluded from. The Orphan's of the Greenblood are an exception. And they're considered odd ducks, even on the Broken Arm.

The Yronwoods, the Wyls, and the Blackmonts, and the other "Stoney" houses might have some pride in being ethnically distinct from the rest of Dorne, they might resent the Martells for their dominance but, when push comes to shove, they are Dornish first and Andals second. Daeron's conquest should be more than enough proof of that.

And this "Dorne first" mentality extends even to the Martells. Consider the way Doran and Arianne talk about their duty to Dorne, rather than their duty to their house or family. You never hear Tywin Lannister talk about his duty to the westerlands.

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