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what is dead may never die: a Theon Greyjoy reread project


INCBlackbird

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More insightful analysis INCBlackbird. Catelyn does Theon a great honour by including him in the secret, which I think promotes all of Theon’s pro-Stark thoughts. I like your idea that Theon adapts his behaviour depending on the situation he’s in and who he’s with. I think Theon has mixed feelings towards Ned. I think Ned is a second father to Theon to some extent and I believe Theon would like to see him that way and would like Ned to see things that way as well but the threat of Ice means that this can never really be the case. This is comparable to his relationship with his real father – he would like to believe that Balon loves him but he knows that his life is in Balon’s hands, which makes him a threat as well.

Rereading this chapter, Theon’s claim that ‘my House owes yours a great debt’ stood out to me. What was he thinking with that? The rest of what he says could be true but I cannot see the thinking behind this claim. Do they owe the Starks a debt for not killing Theon? For not killing Balon? For not completely destroying the Iron Islands? Even for delusional Theon this is a strange statement.

I agree with what you say about Theon’s status as hostage having a subtle but still very real effect on Bran, Theon, everyone else and their relationships with each other. That was inevitable and it definitely has an effect on Theon, even if there was no open animosity towards him. In a way that actually makes it harder to deal with because he can’t openly hate the Starks, he’s just left with this feeling of inferiority.

I definitly think that Theon wanted Ned to be a father to him. and maybe in certain moments it was possible to consider him one. I think Ned would have made it a point to teach Theon his moral code so in that sense Theon could think of him as a father. But Ned is very… let’s call it pragmatic. He’s all about being cold and rational and avoiding mixing his emotions with his duty. And I think he considered it his duty to do right by Theon and teach him what he is supposed to be taught and treat him how he should be treated. But rational Ned also kept his emotions in check, he knew he might have to kill Theon one day and couldn’t get attached, so Theon got no parental love from Ned, which is what he really wanted and what’s really important. There’s also the thing with the execusions because I think that it was Ned’s idea to treat Theon equally to his own children and that included teaching him how difficult it is to take another person’s life. But he also doesn’t seem to take Theon’s emotions into account in this. And tbh, I have a problem with Ned I think partly because of this (and it’s not about Theon it’s about Ned) because I think that Ned despite meaning well, expects everyone else to do the same thing he does. He expects Theon to also separate his emotions from his rational side. But Theon can’t do this, Theon is always lead by his emotions and they cloud his rational side. So when Theon goes to executions he’s not thinking that Ned has difficulty with cutting off a man’s head, he’s thinking that it might be him on the block next time. And I don’t think Ned can expect Theon to not think that way. either way I’m getting a little off topic here. The point is that Theon wanted Ned to be like a father to him (partially because he wanted to have a place to belong and partially because he wanted to get some love) and I think through the way Ned treated him (with respect but without emotion) Theon was very confused, he couldn’t hate him but he also didn’t get what he really wanted and Theon does with this relationship what he basically does with everything else, he tells himself depending on the situation he’s in either that Ned was horrible to him and he should hate him, or that Ned was like a father to him.

And I know a lot of people are going to disagree with this but I do think Theon has a form of Stockholm syndrome for Ned. Mostly because he is the one that has his life in his hands and it’s important for Theon’s survival that Ned will care about him because if he does it’s less likely that he will kill him if it ever comes to that.

And yes, most of this can be applied to Balon as well.

I think that statement is a combination of the northmen influencing Theon’s way of thinking (For years he only got their perspective and their perspective was that what they did was right. And the Greyjoys owe them for not killing them altogether) and Theon saying what he thinks Catelyn wants to hear.

btw: this is my 1000th post! woohoo! (I specifically made sure it was about Theon because reasons haha)

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I've actually thought that Theon meant House Greyjoy owes House Tully for their workings against House Hoare, since it allowed the Greyjoys to be the Great House of the Iron Islands.

oh that's another possibility yes! I hadn't thought that Theon meant house Tully but considering that he's talking to Cat it makes sense.

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Catelyn VIII


“Theon Greyjoy was the last. ‘I had not looked to see you here, my lady,’ he said as he knelt. ‘I had not thought to be here,’ Catelyn said.”


One more example of the respect Theon gives Catelyn. I think the reasons behind this are very simple, she is highborn so to be socially acceptable he needs to respect her. But what’s important about this is that Theon doesn’t necessarily disrespect women, he’s more of a classist than a sexist. And he is extremely disrespectful and acts like he is superior towards low born people, but I think I have discussed the reason behind this in my analysis of his first ACOK chapter.


“The bannermen bowed and took their leave. ‘And you, Theon,’ she added when Greyjoy lingered. He smiled and left them.”


There is definitely something behind that smile here! Probably a sense of embarrassment and/or sadness that he had to be told to leave. Maybe Theon was hoping that he would be allowed to stay. But being told to leave must have made him feel like an underling again, which he was (a captive) but wasn’t supposed to be (prince of Pyke/equal position to Robb Stark)


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could also be about him being his best friend rather than equal to him by status. either way, I don't think that detail changes too much about what that smile could mean. he expected to be included and he wasn't and he was probably embarassed about making the wrong assumption.


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Catelyn VIII

“Theon Greyjoy was the last. ‘I had not looked to see you here, my lady,’ he said as he knelt. ‘I had not thought to be here,’ Catelyn said.”

One more example of the respect Theon gives Catelyn. I think the reasons behind this are very simple, she is highborn so to be socially acceptable he needs to respect her. But what’s important about this is that Theon doesn’t necessarily disrespect women, he’s more of a classist than a sexist. And he is extremely disrespectful and acts like he is superior towards low born people, but I think I have discussed the reason behind this in my analysis of his first ACOK chapter.

“The bannermen bowed and took their leave. ‘And you, Theon,’ she added when Greyjoy lingered. He smiled and left them.”

There is definitely something behind that smile here! Probably a sense of embarrassment and/or sadness that he had to be told to leave. Maybe Theon was hoping that he would be allowed to stay. But being told to leave must have made him feel like an underling again, which he was (a captive) but wasn’t supposed to be (prince of Pyke/equal position to Robb Stark)

More interesting dynamic between Theon and Catelyn. There are a lot of parallels, and at this juncture, they're the two people closest to Robb.

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parallels between Theon and Catelyn? could you elaborate on this? I have found a lot of parallels between Theon and other characters but not with Catelyn, I haven't really thought about it though so i'd be really interested to hear about that :)

Just off the top of my head, since it really just occurred to me--

~Both are "outsiders" in the North--Catelyn from the Riverlands, Theon from the Iron Islands

~Neither likes Jon very much (well, Catelyn actively dislikes Jon, but Theon and Jon never seem to get along as well as Jon and Robb or Theon and Jon)

~Both are very close to Robb and are part of his "inner circle" of advisors

~Robb trusts both at different times as ambassadors/diplomats (and both times he ends up with unforeseen outcomes through no fault of the ambassador--Theon's father decides to invade, Walder Frey ends up turning on the Starks)

~The connection LordStoneheart pointed out between the Greyjoys and the Tullys

~Both end up half-dead and maimed under a different identity (Catelyn as Lady Stoneheart, Theon as Reek)

There might be more, but I'll have to think on it for a bit longer.

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Just off the top of my head, since it really just occurred to me--

~Both are "outsiders" in the North--Catelyn from the Riverlands, Theon from the Iron Islands

~Neither likes Jon very much (well, Catelyn actively dislikes Jon, but Theon and Jon never seem to get along as well as Jon and Robb or Theon and Jon)

~Both are very close to Robb and are part of his "inner circle" of advisors

~Robb trusts both at different times as ambassadors/diplomats (and both times he ends up with unforeseen outcomes through no fault of the ambassador--Theon's father decides to invade, Walder Frey ends up turning on the Starks)

~The connection LordStoneheart pointed out between the Greyjoys and the Tullys

~Both end up half-dead and maimed under a different identity (Catelyn as Lady Stoneheart, Theon as Reek)

There might be more, but I'll have to think on it for a bit longer.

oooh! that's very interesting! I hadn't thought of that at all! I'm definitly gonna remember this if it ever comes into play in something that I write, thanks :)

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Catelyn IX


“Theon Greyjoy brought them further word from her uncle. ‘Ser Brynden says to tell you he’s crossed swords with the Lannisters. There are a dozen scouts who won’t be reporting back to Lord Tywin anytime soon. Or ever.’ He grinned.”


Theon is very confident in their success, but then again, Theon is ALWAYS confident in their (his) success because he never takes the time to consider the situation from someone else’ perspective. He knows about the plan, and the plan is solid and other people’s plans are not even taken into account.


“’Lord Frey would be a fool to try and bar our way,’ Theon Greyjoy said with his customary easy confidence.”


In addiction Theon even assumes that Walder Frey (everyone) also only looks at it from his perspective.


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I've actually thought that Theon meant House Greyjoy owes House Tully for their workings against House Hoare, since it allowed the Greyjoys to be the Great House of the Iron Islands.

Nice idea. I never thought of that but that could very well explain it.

Great analysis as always INCBlackbird. I like your analysis of the Ned/Theon relationship. Sorry, it’s been a while since I commented on this thread, so I’m just going to backtrack a little to Bran V because there’s a lot there.

It’s pretty common for men to boast of their sexual activities in Westeros as in today’s world, so he could have picked it up from anywhere, just not the Ned obviously. Probably he also heard stories from Rodrik, Maron and Euron. However, knowing what we know about Robb’s views on women and sex before marriage, I don’t think Theon’s boasting to the right person. Probably he boasts to others as well though.

I think it’s quite likely that Bran is jealous of the attention Robb gives Theon. Another factor I think is that Theon never paid much attention to Bran because he’s so much younger. I can understand why Bran shouts at Theon because Theon suggests his father might die and naturally this thought upsets him. However, there’s no way that Theon should let Bran talk to him that way. Of course Bran’s going to talk down to him if even Theon thinks of himself as lower in status. Jon certainly wouldn’t allow it but then he doesn’t have Theon’s confidence issues.

The incident with the wildlings is tragic in hindsight; the fact that one angry comment persuades Theon to take Winterfell. Robb is harsh on Theon but at the same time he’s right – Theon doesn’t think it through, which is quite common for him. He arrives with the rest of the guard, so Stiv’s got no chance at this point; there is no need to take rash action. Having said that, Theon means well and does still save Bran’s life and I agree that Robb should thank him for it later.

In Catelyn VIII I think Theon wants to be considered as part of the family because this is a mother-son moment. Catelyn is Theon’s foster mother after all but she ‘rejects’ him in a way here.

I like Theon in Catelyn IX. Yes, he’s overconfident but he’s far from the only one. How many characters on any side actually consider failure as a possibility? Not that many. He’s a valued part of their army, he’s showing his bravery, he’s with friends, he belongs. Sad to think that this is pretty much as good as it gets for him.

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^Theon is bold and quick to act. We see this several times. Be it him being the first to his feet and going for his sword when Greatjon Umber has issue w/ Robb (Greywind beats him to it), or unilaterally acting to kill the wildling holding Bran "It was the only thing to do so I did it." He is slightly like Tywin in that way--not afraid to hesitate or make the hard choice or get his hands dirty, ding what must be done and taking the burden on himself (Golem like, also).



As to Theon & Cat, another interesting bit is of the three things Ned tells Cat to do in preparation for war, one (Secure MoatCailin and beef up White Harbor being the others) is that "I want a careful watch kept over Theon Greyjoy. If there is war, we shall have sore need of his father's fleet."



Ned knew Theon's (& the Iron Fleet's) worth all along. Theon has ever been a means to an end to others. A valuable piece to posses & utilize, with little real agency of his own.


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Nice idea. I never thought of that but that could very well explain it.

Great analysis as always INCBlackbird. I like your analysis of the Ned/Theon relationship. Sorry, it’s been a while since I commented on this thread, so I’m just going to backtrack a little to Bran V because there’s a lot there.

It’s pretty common for men to boast of their sexual activities in Westeros as in today’s world, so he could have picked it up from anywhere, just not the Ned obviously. Probably he also heard stories from Rodrik, Maron and Euron. However, knowing what we know about Robb’s views on women and sex before marriage, I don’t think Theon’s boasting to the right person. Probably he boasts to others as well though.

I think it’s quite likely that Bran is jealous of the attention Robb gives Theon. Another factor I think is that Theon never paid much attention to Bran because he’s so much younger. I can understand why Bran shouts at Theon because Theon suggests his father might die and naturally this thought upsets him. However, there’s no way that Theon should let Bran talk to him that way. Of course Bran’s going to talk down to him if even Theon thinks of himself as lower in status. Jon certainly wouldn’t allow it but then he doesn’t have Theon’s confidence issues.

The incident with the wildlings is tragic in hindsight; the fact that one angry comment persuades Theon to take Winterfell. Robb is harsh on Theon but at the same time he’s right – Theon doesn’t think it through, which is quite common for him. He arrives with the rest of the guard, so Stiv’s got no chance at this point; there is no need to take rash action. Having said that, Theon means well and does still save Bran’s life and I agree that Robb should thank him for it later.

In Catelyn VIII I think Theon wants to be considered as part of the family because this is a mother-son moment. Catelyn is Theon’s foster mother after all but she ‘rejects’ him in a way here.

I like Theon in Catelyn IX. Yes, he’s overconfident but he’s far from the only one. How many characters on any side actually consider failure as a possibility? Not that many. He’s a valued part of their army, he’s showing his bravery, he’s with friends, he belongs. Sad to think that this is pretty much as good as it gets for him.

oh yeah I think Bran's definitly jealous, there's this line where he goes "Robb spent more time with Theon Greyjoy and [insert other name here that I don't remember]" it's definitly jealousy as well. but I definitly think there's something there, as you say, it's understandable that he shouts at Theon because he suggested Ned's death, but he wouldn't if he hadn't felt it was possible. and Theon just lets it happen, he doesn't retaliate at all, he doesn't with Robb either, not really. I think it all comes down to Theon feeling that he can't really defend himself, because of his confidence issues and those confidence issues are largely caused by his time in Winterfell and him feeling that he is mostly just there as a political tool, that he isn't valued as a person by anyone but Robb. and so his opinions don't matter to anyone but Robb.

I don't think Robb was right, I don't think Robb thinks he was right either. Theon is an amazing archer... well either way, what Roose Bolton's Pet leech says, cause he already handled this part ;)

ooooh! that's an interesting take on it and I think you're probably right! Theon wants some attension too, more so he expects to get it and is wrong. this could be due to his romanticizing as well. we've seen that he often tries to please cat, telling her things that she wants to hear, being a real gentlemen to her. He's probably convinced himself that in turn she'll give him what he wants.

I think that experienced war tacticians will consider the enemy carefully and overestimate them rather than underestimate them. but than again, both Robb and Theon are very young and inexperienced.

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@damp hair:



that's a good observation! it seems like when something needs to happen quickly Theon will take action without hesitation and in AGOT all goes well. He saves Bran! it's only when Theon is heavily emotional (like in ACOK) that things go wrong and his decisions end up only making things worse!



oh yeah! that line! I don't even remember why I didn't add it because I went through everytime Theon is mentioned and I'm very well aware of that line. probably didn't include it because he wasn't in the actual scene! But in my opinion, that shows perfectly how much Ned cares about Theon (as in not at all) He never thinks of speaks of him besides that one time and it's about using him as the political tool that he is.


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Catelyn XI


“Theon Greyjoy vaulted over the side of the boat and lifted Catelyn by the waist, setting her on a dry step above him as water lapped around his boots. “


When it comes to high born women Theon appears to be rather chauvinistic.


“Theon Greyjoy was seated on a bench in Riverrun’s Great Hall, enjoying a horn of ale and regaling her father’s garrison with an account of the slaughter in the Whispering Wood. ‘Some tried to flee, but we’d pinched the valley shut at both ends, and we rode out of the darkness with sword and lance. The Lannisters must have thought the Others themselves were on them when that wolf of Robb’s got in among them. I saw him tear one man’s arm from his shoulder, and their horses went mad at the scent of him. I couldn’t tell you how many men were thrown-‘ ‘Theon,’ she interrupted”


Theon clearly feels the need to brag about this fight, probably blowing it way out of proportion. I’m pretty sure he does this because this is the cause he’s fighting for now and Theon tends to blow everything he cares about at that moment out of proportion.


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THEON'S AGOT ARC:


§Theon is always eager to take actions that he thinks will please his captors.


§He puts others down to make himself feel better, but he knows who he can and cannot do that with, which makes him more of a classist than a sexist because he puts value on status (status is what can make him feel better as well because he’s got a high one so if he puts value on that it helps his confidence)


§He desperately tries to make himself feel like an adult at all cost.


§Theon has a low self-esteem and uses the reaction formation defense mechanism quite often to hide emotions he’s not comfortable with, especially when it comes to his position as a captive and his feelings about this position.


§He emphasizes that he’s a Greyjoy by putting Krakens on his clothes. Because if he can’t belong in Winterfell, he’ll show everyone that he belongs somewhere. It’s another case of overcompensation


§Theon convinces himself that Ned is like a father to him. Positively oversimplifying their relationship to make himself feel better.


§He doesn’t look at situations from other people’s perspectives and expects everyone else to see it the same way as he does.


§Theon blows things out of proportion both the good (winning a fight) and the bad (Robb getting angry at him) because he is led by his emotions rather than his rational side. He has very little emotional control and when something hurts him or makes him feel good he will dwell on it and it will feel a lot bigger than it is.


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§He emphasizes that he’s a Greyjoy by putting Krakens on his clothes. Because if he can’t belong in Winterfell, he’ll show everyone that he belongs somewhere. It’s another case of overcompensation

§Theon convinces himself that Ned is like a father to him. Positively oversimplifying their relationship to make himself feel better.

Interesting points. He later recalls how he never felt Winterfell as truly home, yet when he goes back to the Islands, it's remarkable how he forgot to be an Ironborn and embraced his captors culture only reinforcing his feelings of not belonging to either Winterfell nor the Iron Islands. Contributing heavily to his conflicts in Clash.

edit: typos are my best friend.

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