DaveSumm Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 It's bugging me the more I dwell on it. Obviously they just wanted Spoiler Mary out of the picture and for Watson to hate Holmes, but they've dealt with it poorly. Sherlock would never be so stupid as to promise he could protect them if he was around, and even if he could, Mary jumped in the way (or decided to, once the bullet was about halfway there). So she left her child motherless so her husbands mate could carry on living. And speaking of bad parenting: "hey, Sherlock's just texted with one of his dangerous situations that have involved guns and death in the past! Shall we both go? No wait till we find a sitter, then we'll both go. You know, seeing as neither of our presences will change anything about it at all." It's Mary and John's fault, and presumably we have to sit through a tiresome arc of John realising he ultimately blames himself. Still don't understand the "go to hell Sherlock", anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iskaral Pust Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 The Guardian and AVClub were generous in their reviews but IGN is closer to the reaction in this thread. It's not just that we had to sit through another episode of Mary the completely unbelievable super-spy (the suspension of disbelief required for James Bond or Jason Bourne jars with the setting and characters here), but the entire episode was held hostage to the preordained outcome: Spoiler Sherlock didn't solve anything, he just followed along as flashbacks dumped exposition on us; why would "ammo" use the same code word for the terrorists, and why would the terrorists torture for fun, keep the prisoner alive for six further years for no point, and conveniently keep referring back to a meaningless code word?; how does Mary manage to jump in front of the bullet from that range and why does Watson accept her fatality so immediately? If that's the outcome they wanted, they could have achieved it more easily with Mary shooting Magnusson instead in His Last Vow, and then a sniper shoots her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
williamjm Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 2 hours ago, Iskaral Pust said: The clue for the showrunner should that when there is no central mystery in a detective mystery show, you've lost your way. It does seem to have been quite a while since Sherlock was really a show about solving crimes. Although it's perhaps not as good as Sherlock as its best I'm tending to think Elementary is the better modern Holmes show because it's actually continued to be a detective story (and also has better character development). I think this is probably one of the weaker episodes of Sherlock so far, it felt like a perfunctory plot to try to get the characters into a particular situation going forward. 29 minutes ago, Iskaral Pust said: Hide contents If that's the outcome they wanted, they could have achieved it more easily with Mary shooting Magnusson instead in His Last Vow, and then a sniper shoots her. I think that would have worked better, alternatively she could have been arrested for murdering Magnusson (or someone in the new series), at least that would be a less obvious plot than the ridiculous cliche of one character jumping in front of another to save them from a bullet, only surviving for long enough to utter a few final words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 I didn't hate it, but then I like Mary. it's probably true to say that her character misbalanced the show, and so needed to go, but I like how her and Sherlock bounce off each other and I like watching her at work. And I don't mind the show taking a detour into spy territory. Suspension of disbelief isn't an issue, I never found her and her stuff any more unbelievable than Sherlock anyway and Moriarty's whole existence has left spy games on the table from the start. It's a fairly natural place for the show to go. It is undeniably messy though. The fiction to get Sherlock off- well, (1) why didn't they do that first, (2) 'nobody knows about it apart from the people in this room' and also John Watson and Mary Watson and all the soldiers and (3) why is it better that some random soldier shoots him, anyway? John's flirtation/maybe-affair, I really hope that goes somewhere coz as it stands it was totally pointless. The terrorists conveniently keeping AJ alive and telling him about the English Woman but no more was contrived as hell. And the ending was sloppy, really could have used a more meaningful death for Mary. AJ shooting her, then discovering he was wrong only to be shot by John would have been way better. All in all, it wasn't one of the best episodes but I did enjoy watching it. I am a little worried that it's going to fall prey to Moffatt's tendency, so blatantly displayed in Doctor Who, to introduce ideas that he then loses interest in actually bringing to fruition, but I don't think it's jumped that shark yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 I suspect that the woman hitting on John was Moriarty's posthumous play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iskaral Pust Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 44 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: Reveal hidden contents I suspect that the woman hitting on John was Moriarty's posthumous play. I would be happy if it was redeemed by such relevance. I didn't want to criticize that bit too early -- despite being very out of character -- because it did seem like a set-up for further exploration. Scot, you have a pretty good nose for conspiracy theories. You called it correctly and early on HIMYM, although perhaps not on TBBT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 IP, We'll see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veltigar Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 6 hours ago, Zorral said: I haven't yet watched this. It's not unlikely that I won't ever watch it, as much as I've disliked the last season. Unlike those of you here, so many have thought this was a wonderful episode, such as here: https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2017/jan/02/sherlock-recap-series-four-episode-one-the-six-thatchers Which may force me to watch it just so I can know for myself who I agree with! I'm an avid reader of the Grauniad. Definitely one of, if not the best newspaper in the world... That being said, sometimes I really want to punch their reviewers in the mouth 7 hours ago, Iskaral Pust said: Her character may be the single worst plot decision I've ever seen. For a show of this quality to be dragged down for two entire seasons by a baffling choice to shoehorn a poorly written and/or acted James Bond into a buddy-detective show is unforgivable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxom 1974 Posted January 3, 2017 Author Share Posted January 3, 2017 It ambled...it wasn't awful, but it was the stellar...I kept waiting for the other shoe to drop and the story to advance... Watching Watson was painful... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 15 hours ago, Veltigar said: I'm an avid reader of the Grauniad. Definitely one of, if not the best newspaper in the world... That being said, sometimes I really want to punch their reviewers in the mouth You probably liked this one better! https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2017/jan/03/sherlock-slowly-perversely-morphing-into-james-bond-benedict-cumberbatch Quote williamjm It does seem to have been quite a while since Sherlock was really a show about solving crimes. Although it's perhaps not as good as Sherlock as its best I'm tending to think Elementary is the better modern Holmes show because it's actually continued to be a detective story (and also has better character development). Elementary reliably provides what it promises in just about every episode. Plus the relationship between Sherlock and Watson is so good -- no mucking it up with sex and romance, but deep mentorship each to the other, making for authentic friendship, which is what they are about. I love it. Alas, it's not to be renewed for another season, They Say, since viewership is down. Still, then, now and forever, for me, the Real Screen Sherlock Holmes is Jeremy Brett. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veltigar Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 33 minutes ago, Zorral said: You probably liked this one better! https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2017/jan/03/sherlock-slowly-perversely-morphing-into-james-bond-benedict-cumberbatch I do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iskaral Pust Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 1 hour ago, Zorral said: Elementary reliably provides what it promises in just about every episode. Plus the relationship between Sherlock and Watson is so good -- no mucking it up with sex and romance, but deep mentorship each to the other, making for authentic friendship, which is what they are about. I love it. Alas, it's not to be renewed for another season, They Say, since viewership is down. Elementary is pretty good but it suffers from the same problem as most episodic mystery shows: they introduce 3-4 new characters in each episode and we know one of them is the villain, but it's not the most obvious one because there is always misdirection. When you repeat that over 24 episodes per season, it gets very repetitive and predictable. The Holmes/Watson relationship and character development is very good (aside from Mycroft) but not enough to transcend the limitations of the format. Sherlock reduces this problem with fewer, longer episodes and a central mystery that spans the season. This is why mini-series shows like True Detective (S1 at least), Fargo, Broadchurch, Goliath, Whitechapel, etc are so popular at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvinus85 Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 1 hour ago, Zorral said: Elementary reliably provides what it promises in just about every episode. Plus the relationship between Sherlock and Watson is so good -- no mucking it up with sex and romance, but deep mentorship each to the other, making for authentic friendship, which is what they are about. I love it. Alas, it's not to be renewed for another season, They Say, since viewership is down. Where did you get this news? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 1 minute ago, Corvinus said: Where did you get this news? I don't remember, but I saw it last week. Probably on one of three sites: Entertainment Weekly, AV Club or TV.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 28 minutes ago, Iskaral Pust said: Elementary is pretty good but it suffers from the same problem as most episodic mystery shows: they introduce 3-4 new characters in each episode and we know one of them is the villain, but it's not the most obvious one because there is always misdirection. When you repeat that over 24 episodes per season, it gets very repetitive and predictable. The Holmes/Watson relationship and character development is very good (aside from Mycroft) but not enough to transcend the limitations of the format. Sherlock reduces this problem with fewer, longer episodes and a central mystery that spans the season. This is why mini-series shows like True Detective (S1 at least), Fargo, Broadchurch, Goliath, Whitechapel, etc are so popular at the moment. I personally find Elementary's episodic, formula mystery to be comfort tv in the best way. This might be the case for me personally with some other series, but it works, or has worked, for me in Elementary. All series hit a sell-by point. Murdoch's Mysteries has been astonishingly consistent delivering what it does over all these seasons. But one does now rather hope that season 10 will be the final one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martell Spy Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Enjoyed the episode in places, but not the best episode. Some of the plotting was pretty poor and I expect better from this show. Spoiler There was no need to confront the traitor in that manner. Everyone was shocked that she pulls a gun instead of quietly going to prison? I know Sherlock loves to do that, but it just seemed ridiculous. He's vowed to protect them and he did the direct opposite by putting them near a dangerous person. I liked Mary and thought she had good chemistry with Holmes and Watson. I think the show was always best when Holmes and Watson were off solving mysteries, but she could have easily been worked into that due to the chemistry. I'm surprised they went this route, but I guess it was set in stone once she had that background. I'm concerned about the baby. I really can't see how this adds to the show. Just seems like it's a prop waiting to be kidnapped. Otherwise though, I think this show can easily recover by returning to regular form. I'm a little disappointed in the ep, but not worried about the show overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 The TV these days is such an amazing place, that we simply can not forgive shows being just plain. This character and the man playing it are both stellar, so when some idiocies happen along the way, we are naturally far more disappointed then when IDK, Downton Abbey continued to be just soap opera. IDK, it felt OK... I didn't hate it, but it was just plain. Ordinary. So un-special. So not worth waiting for years We know Gattis can do better job... All I want more Mycroft and Sherlock together and less whining John, Is that too much to ask for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaßvogel Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 I thought it was better than the Season 1 opener, not even close to the season 2 opener, about the same as the season 3 opener. It did seem to be *very* utilitarian--a story designed to accomplish meta-plot goals. At least it was somewhat based on a classic Conan Doyle mystery (which hilariously enough contained the black pearl of the Borgias in the original). They wanted to get rid of mary and make Watson hate Holmes. I'm in the camp who never cared for commando superspy Mary, it just seemed like your typical Moffat-esque twist to make her more capable than Watson, but if she is there she almost eliminates the need for Watson as a foil. I think the baby is more of a plot-Albatross than Mary though and I think they have painted themselves into a worse corner. Maybe I'll be surprised. I certainly hope so. The only thing that worries me is that the 2nd episode has typically been the weak one in the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 11 minutes ago, Spaßvogel said: The only thing that worries me is that the 2nd episode has typically been the weak one in the season. Looking back you're completely right. The Hounds of Bakersville is probably my least favorite episode of the series so far. At the end of the day even the weaker Sherlock episodes are enjoyable for me though. Cumberbatch is just so damn good in the role. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 So does it mean that Spoiler the other one, the third Holmes brother, Spoiler Sherrinford is going to be the new villain or even the new Sherlock? According to rumours Spoiler Tom Hiddleston will be in Sherlock. If that is true my guess is that he could be Sherrinford. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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