Jaak Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Well I think that if Argilac was not willing to marry them, he would want more then a rumour to base it off. But if Orys was trueborn child of his official father, one Baratheon, then he was still "baseborn" because Father Baratheon, although blessed with a surname like Slynt, Baelish or Cole or Seaworth or Correy, was from an unimportant family of "you wouldn´t know him". So baseborn either way - bastard brother, or a genuine commoner promoted by Aegon for merit, or ass-kissing, or ass-fucking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay's Penguins Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 But if Orys was trueborn child of his official father, one Baratheon, then he was still "baseborn" because Father Baratheon, although blessed with a surname like Slynt, Baelish or Cole or Seaworth or Correy, was from an unimportant family of "you wouldn´t know him". So baseborn either way - bastard brother, or a genuine commoner promoted by Aegon for merit, or ass-kissing, or ass-fucking. Baratheon doesn't mean a lord though. Could be a last name. We have a family of Heddles, one of which who was a knight, but not nobility. Now they own an inn. Mott is probably from overseas, yet he has a last name. This works perfectly as long as Baratheons aren't nobility, which they don't seem to be. Otherwise I think we would have heard of them. Two Baratheons of Dragonstone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belladeuil Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 I doubt Argella ever came to love her husband. He killed her father and stole her inheritance. He may have married her and made her Lady Consort of Storm's End but he deprived her of being the Storm Queen in her own right and ended her house (Argella's children were Baratheons). Argella may have married Orys Baratheon because the alternative was life imprisonment without children of her own to continue her father's line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay's Penguins Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 I doubt Argella ever came to love her husband. He killed her father and stole her inheritance. He may have married her and made her Lady Consort of Storm's End but he deprived her of being the Storm Queen in her own right and ended her house (Argella's children were Baratheons). Argella may have married Orys Baratheon because the alternative was life imprisonment without children of her own to continue her father's line. To me the fact that a Storm Queen didn't try to take her husband down after she had kids to continue the line speaks volumes, but it is true, we don't know. All we know is that Orys was gentle with her, and since she had kids by him, things weren't to shitty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
voodooqueen126 Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 To me the fact that a Storm Queen didn't try to take her husband down after she had kids to continue the line speaks volumes, but it is true, we don't know. All we know is that Orys was gentle with her, and since she had kids by him, things weren't to shitty. How do we know she didn't poison him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belladeuil Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 @Ramsay's Penguins: The fact that Orys Baratheon was gentle to Argella (in an incident before their marriage) and that she had children by him means nothing. Robert Baratheon was gentle to Cersei Lannister (on their wedding day at the Sept) and she had children 'by him' but didn't change the fact that their marriage was anything but happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay's Penguins Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 @Ramsay's Penguins: The fact that Orys Baratheon was gentle to Argella (in an incident before their marriage) and that she had children by him means nothing. Robert Baratheon was gentle to Cersei Lannister (on their wedding day at the Sept) and she had children 'by him' but didn't change the fact that their marriage was anything but happy. Robert forgot who he even married that night. She had no children by him at all, she always made sure he withdrew. Like I said, we don't know. I'm not saying it is true, it just seems like an indicator to me. And if she was going to poison him, I think it would have been done earlier @voodooqueen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belladeuil Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Cersei Lannister had three children (officially) by Robert Baratheon. Argella had children (officially) by Orys Baratheon. Having children officially together and not being known to kill your spouse is not an indication that the marriage could not have been all bad.-Also, just because you tried to kill your spouse doesn't mean you will succeed and/or be discovered. Argella may have tried to have her husband murdered, you just don't know. You can't assume she didn't and draw conclusions from that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellstaysia Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 I have a side question. was orys the first baratheon? if so, where did his last name, "baratheon" come from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 I have a side question. was orys the first baratheon? if so, where did his last name, "baratheon" come from?We don't know.. that's what we've been speculating about. :PHow do we know she didn't poison him?Didn't Orys die during a war? Against the Vulture King? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay's Penguins Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 We don't know.. that's what we've been speculating about. :PDidn't Orys die during a war? Against the Vulture King?Yeah after he defeated the Wyls at Stonehelm, he died on the march back to Storms End.Poisoning isn't out of the question... Cersei Lannister had three children (officially) by Robert Baratheon. Argella had children (officially) by Orys Baratheon. Having children officially together and not being known to kill your spouse is not an indication that the marriage could not have been all bad.-Also, just because you tried to kill your spouse doesn't mean you will succeed and/or be discovered. Argella may have tried to have her husband murdered, you just don't know. You can't assume she didn't and draw conclusions from that.Well I have been saying, we don't know... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Yeah after he defeated the Wyls at Stonehelm, he died on the march back to Storms End.Poisoning isn't out of the question... Direct poisoning would be, but there could have been a go-between, sure...But why would Argella only act after 37 years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay's Penguins Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Direct poisoning would be, but there could have been a go-between, sure...But why would Argella only act after 37 years?Children. Its pretty likely that she would die if she was found out, so if she has kids, then she has heirs. Maybe she intended for the Durrandon line to be revived, and for this she needed children. Since we don't know when she died, it may be the plan never came to fruition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolf Lord's Daughter Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 The shipping communities see two people talking to each other and immediately assume they have a secret affair or they are closeted gays. Argella and Sansa are not the same, nor their situations were the same.No one forced her to marry Orys, IICR. Her people handled her to him, naked and chained, as a way to surrender. It looks like he didn't like the way she was treated. Nevertheless, she was still the heir of her father, and the ruling Queen. Her lands were conquered, and that's how marriage agreements are born: to make peace and create continuity. He would be in charge of the Stormlands, but the blood of Argilac would carry on through her. It had nothing to do with Orys seeing her as a damsel in distress and falling for her. If anything, she realised he was a nice man who had nothing against her, personally. The book could also carry the misinterpretations history has been passing about him. Do we know what's the position old Valyria had about bastardy? As far as we know, they couldn't care less if a guy was a bastard or not. Aegon definitely didn't mind. Yet, in Westeros, those things are important, hence, the need to make him look less, and also, Aegon, a guy who didn't care to share his household with bastards.The first sentence bolded might be incorrect. Sansa wasn't dragged kicking and screaming to her wedding nor was there an actual sword to her throat, but she was forced nonetheless. Argella was ahostage in her own castle whose people had abandoned her, she coul've been forced. The rest of the bolded parts could easily apply to Tyrion and Sansa. Hell, Sansa even realized that Tyrion was better than the rest of the Lannisters and admits multiple times that he helped her during one of her beatings. But that wasn't enough for her to love him, and frankly, it wouldn't be enough for most people. I don't see why Argella realizing that Orys was a decent man would make her love him. To me the fact that a Storm Queen didn't try to take her husband down after she had kids to continue the line speaks volumes, but it is true, we don't know. All we know is that Orys was gentle with her, and since she had kids by him, things weren't to shitty.So did Lysa. As to why she didn't take him down, maybe she died in chird birth, maybe she didn't want to kill Orys because her children loved their father. I just doubt she loved him. Maybe she came to tolerate him but that's it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AryaNymeriaVisenya Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 To me the fact that a Storm Queen didn't try to take her husband down after she had kids to continue the line speaks volumes, but it is true, we don't know. All we know is that Orys was gentle with her, and since she had kids by him, things weren't to shitty. And Robert was killed by a boar right? I can't get my head around any scenario where Argella would want to marry and have sex with her dad's killer. Leader of an army that unjustly attacked her homeland, destroyed her house and usurped her inheritance. Orys, the fountain of chivilry covered her nakedness, I guess that makes it all OK and they lived happily ever after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellstaysia Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 We don't know.. that's what we've been speculating about. :P that's embarassing, I obviously didn't read most of the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bael's Bastard Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Admittedly, I had hoped for more clear information about Orys' background. I didn't expect to find out whether he truly shared a parent with Aegon or not, but hoped we would find out what was known about whatever parent of his was known, and where the Baratheon name came from. It is still sort of confusing, as the Storm Lands section seems to state without any qualifiers that he was a bastard. But the whispers of Orys being a baseborn brother of Aegon seem sort of awkward if he was already known to be a bastard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 OK but why would Glydyan and other Maester's write of Orys Baratheon as being a bastard, when he clearly does not have a 'bastard' name? Does this imply that the mother is the one who was unfaithful instead of the father? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bael's Bastard Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 OK but why would Glydyan and other Maester's write of Orys Baratheon as being a bastard, when he clearly does not have a 'bastard' name? Does this imply that the mother is the one who was unfaithful instead of the father? We have no idea where Baratheon comes from, whether or not it is a bastard name from outside mainland Westeros, a name Orys somehow inherited from someone, or made up himself, or what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Argella was in a similar position to Livia Augusta or Isabel Montezuma. The first was forced to divorce her husband, and marry the man who'd proscribed her father; the second had to marry Cortes' second-in-command, after the death of her own father. It's hard to imagine that either could have had much love for their husbands, but who can say for certain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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