(TWOIAF) Orys Baratheon- Half brother of Aegon

[Suzanna Stormborn]

We have no idea where Baratheon comes from, whether or not it is a bastard name from outside mainland Westeros, a name Orys somehow inherited from someone, or made up himself, or what.

Right I saw, but I am saying if he was just a regular 'bastard' he would have a 'bastard' name, Hill, Waters, Storm, whatever.

The fact that he doesn't have a bastard name, but everyone seems to be in agreement that he was a bastard makes me think it was his mother who was sleeping around, and not his father. (which, to me, is one reason he would keep his father's name, to save face for the father in light of being cuckolded).

You see what I mean?

[TheSovereignGrave]

OK but why would Glydyan and other Maester's write of Orys Baratheon as being a bastard, when he clearly does not have a 'bastard' name?

Does this imply that the mother is the one who was unfaithful instead of the father?

I think Orys not having a bastard surname just implies that the Valyrians didn't follow that custom, and the Valyrian families of Dragonstone hadn't yet adopted it. What would his bastard name have even been anyway? At the time the Crownlands didn't exist, so I don't think it would've been Waters.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I think Orys not having a bastard surname just implies that the Valyrians didn't follow that custom, and the Valyrian families of Dragonstone hadn't yet adopted it. What would his bastard name have even been anyway? At the time the Crownlands didn't exist, so I don't think it would've been Waters.

Oh is he from Valyria with the Targs/Celtigars/Velaryons?

I guess I always thought he was from Westeros......

[TheSovereignGrave]

Oh is he from Valyria with the Targs/Celtigars/Velaryons?

I guess I always thought he was from Westeros......

Orys doesn't sound like a particularly Westerosi name to me and he's rumoured to be Aegon's half-brother, so I kind of assumed he was of Valyrian stock. Granted, not not as pure Valyrian as the Targaryens, Celtigars, Velaryons, etc.

But I guess until we know who his parents are we don't really know for sure. Either way, I think the regular old bastard names are just what bastards are usually called, and bastards can be called something else if their parents really care enough.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

The first sentence bolded might be incorrect. Sansa wasn't dragged kicking and screaming to her wedding nor was there an actual sword to her throat, but she was forced nonetheless. Argella was ahostage in her own castle whose people had abandoned her, she coul've been forced. The rest of the bolded parts could easily apply to Tyrion and Sansa. Hell, Sansa even realized that Tyrion was better than the rest of the Lannisters and admits multiple times that he helped her during one of her beatings. But that wasn't enough for her to love him, and frankly, it wouldn't be enough for most people. I don't see why Argella realizing that Orys was a decent man would make her love him.

But those people who make her a hostage didn't force her to marry Orys, not Orys. As much, they expect her to kill her or keep her prisoner, who knows. Orys and Argella could be more like a subverted version of Robb and Jeyne. He took her lands, and they got married. In war, this happens a lot. Let's not see an arranged marriage as something that is forced completely upon in the losing side because it's not like that all the time. The marriage allowed Argella to keep her family name, even with a different house name. She also retained her lands.

With Sansa and Tyrion, she was forced and she couldn't decide. We don't know if Argella had other options and could have said no. If Sansa had said no, then she would be dragged to the sept. As far as we know, Orys wasn't the type of man to allow that. Maybe she married Orys because she didn't want to lose completely what belonged to her father. Also, Argella was older, I think. And she was in charge. We don't know if she also negotiated some conditions in that marriage. Look at lady Rohanne. She was in charge of her lands and she was able to negotiate her own marriage and have her own conditions being accepted, probably.

[Bael's Bastard]

Right I saw, but I am saying if he was just a regular 'bastard' he would have a 'bastard' name, Hill, Waters, Storm, whatever.

The fact that he doesn't have a bastard name, but everyone seems to be in agreement that he was a bastard makes me think it was his mother who was sleeping around, and not his father. (which, to me, is one reason he would keep his father's name, to save face for the father in light of being cuckolded).

You see what I mean?

We don't know if there was a specific bastard name on Dragonstone before the Targaryens went to mainland Westeors, and if so, if it was applied using the same criteria as bastard names in mainland Westeros.

My understanding is that bastard names in Westeros are only applied to those with one or more noble parent, not bastards with common parents.

Orys is stated to be a bastard, and only whispered to be baseborn, which may indicate that he legally had the status of the bastard of two commoners, only being rumored to have one noble parent.

So if there was a bastard name on Dragonstone and the same rules applied, Orys would presumably not receive the bastard name, or perhaps any surname at all, unless he was recognized as having one noble parent.

In light of what we have been told, while we still do not know enough, I don't think Baratheon is the name of a man legally considered his father (I almost doubt there was any man even in the picture). I don't think he would be outright stated to be a bastard in that case (by Argillac, sure, but not by the historian(s)).

What Baratheon means and where it comes from we can only speculate. But I don't think it is likely to be the name of a legal father of his, or a bastard name like Waters, Stone, Snow, etc. Perhaps it is more along the lines of the blacksmith's bastard Hugh Hammer, some name he was allowed to choose or given for his service, just untranslated from whatever language Baratheon comes from. I wish we had been given a clearer indication about all this.

[SeanF]

But those people who make her a hostage didn't force her to marry Orys, not Orys. As much, they expect her to kill her or keep her prisoner, who knows. Orys and Argella could be more like a subverted version of Robb and Jeyne. He took her lands, and they got married. In war, this happens a lot. Let's not see an arranged marriage as something that is forced completely upon in the losing side because it's not like that all the time. The marriage allowed Argella to keep her family name, even with a different house name. She also retained her lands.

With Sansa and Tyrion, she was forced and she couldn't decide. We don't know if Argella had other options and could have said no. If Sansa had said no, then she would be dragged to the sept. As far as we know, Orys wasn't the type of man to allow that. Maybe she married Orys because she didn't want to lose completely what belonged to her father. Also, Argella was older, I think. And she was in charge. We don't know if she also negotiated some conditions in that marriage. Look at lady Rohanne. She was in charge of her lands and she was able to negotiate her own marriage and have her own conditions being accepted, probably.

I suspect the choice was either

i) Marry me; or

ii) Be beheaded.

[Jaak]

I suspect the choice was either

i) Marry me; or

ii) Be beheaded.

Lady Agnes Blackwood asked for Harwyn´s sword inside her, rather than his cock - but then again, he was asking to make her his saltwife, not rockwife.

What if the alternative for Queen Argella was joining Silent Sisters, like Queen Marla of Sisters?

[SeanF]

Lady Agnes Blackwood asked for Harwyn´s sword inside her, rather than his cock - but then again, he was asking to make her his saltwife, not rockwife.

What if the alternative for Queen Argella was joining Silent Sisters, like Queen Marla of Sisters?

In truth, I think that would have been the likeliest alternative.

This way, Argella at least ensures that her child inherits Storms End, but I doubt if it was a match made I heaven.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Lady Agnes Blackwood asked for Harwyn´s sword inside her, rather than his cock - but then again, he was asking to make her his saltwife, not rockwife.

What if the alternative for Queen Argella was joining Silent Sisters, like Queen Marla of Sisters?

And if she refused to go to the Sisterhood?

[SeanF]

And if she refused to go to the Sisterhood?

Then it's back to option ii)

[Lady Barbrey]

Orys is a bastard. We don't know where Baratheon comes from.

However Bara is a name and means fisher in some languages.

Theon means godly.

So you get godly fisher. But what is more likely is that she was some commonborn fisherwoman, and the theon part came later. Either that or the Baratheons are minor surviving Valyrian family like the Celtigars, Qoherys and Velaryons, but that would have been mentioned.

Did you get these definitions from the books? A godly fisher sounds like the Fisher King (or Fisher Queens of the World Book). Pretty tenuous but I was just rereading the bit about the Fisher Queens so thought I'd mention it.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Did you get these definitions from the books? A godly fisher sounds like the Fisher King (or Fisher Queens of the World Book). Pretty tenuous but I was just rereading the bit about the Fisher Queens so thought I'd mention it.

I did not. These are from other languages irl. But GRRM has made names that are symbolic and use othe rlanguages before (Alysanne, alys meaning noble, is an example).

[Moondancer]

Comparatively, Jon isn't rumoured to be Ned' bastard.

I think Orys was his mother's son from her marriage to a Baratheon. The rumours of Orys' true parentage would make sense, given that the proper status of bastardy wouldn't illicit the hushed talk. (I will allow the possibility where Aegon explicitely forbade the conversation about it, given Westerosi's proud nature. In that case, Orys could be baseborn son to Aegon's father, with Baratheon as a nickname/word of Valyrian background.)

[belladeuil]

@Ramsay's Penguins: We do know that Orys Baratheon killed Argella's father. We do know they (officially) had at least a son together. We do know there is no known attempts by Argella on Orys Baratheon's life. I do know that that is no indication that things could not be too bad between them.

[CrypticWeirwood]

It is mentioned multiple times that Orys and Aegon were so close they were rumored to have been half brothers. Anyone have any theories as to who might have been Orys' mother with Aerion?

Or if you don't think they are related, could Aegon and Orys be lovers? If so where are the freaking Baratheons from?

The sex-related closeness — whether their own or their parents’ — between Aegon and Orys is easily explained by Mr Martin’s sense of humor and the old joke about the evangelist Oral Roberts having a brother named Anal. It also tells you who’s who in that relationship. :)

Martin later makes the joke more explicit with no shortage of Aenys this-and-thats running around.

[Lee-Sensei]

In truth, I think that would have been the likeliest alternative.

This way, Argella at least ensures that her child inherits Storms End, but I doubt if it was a match made I heaven.

It might have been. Something somewhat similars happened in the Stormlands before.

[Skinner]

Did you get these definitions from the books? A godly fisher sounds like the Fisher King (or Fisher Queens of the World Book). Pretty tenuous but I was just rereading the bit about the Fisher Queens so thought I'd mention it.

Of course! Orys is Sarnori. It all makes sense now!

[Lee-Sensei]

Where was this written? All it said was that Orys supposedly treated her decently, and then married her after having killed her father and stolen her castle by conquest. I never bought the "Argella came to love Orys" argument. It would be like Sansa loving Tyrion, despite himbeing a Lannister and working to bring the Starks down. And Tyrion didn't even kill her father.

:agree: Everything we've learnt about them seems to indicate that.

Things are different in the Stormlands. Argella might have admired his strength for it and loved him anyways.

[WhitewolfStark]

Comparatively, Jon isn't rumoured to be Ned' bastard.

I think Orys was his mother's son from her marriage to a Baratheon. The rumours of Orys' true parentage would make sense, given that the proper status of bastardy wouldn't illicit the hushed talk. (I will allow the possibility where Aegon explicitely forbade the conversation about it, given Westerosi's proud nature. In that case, Orys could be baseborn son to Aegon's father, with Baratheon as a nickname/word of Valyrian background.)

Agreed. In Shakespeare's play: The Life and Death of King John, the first scene is all about settling a dispute between Falconbridges over whether or not the first son is the true heir to the Falconbridge estate, as he looks nothing like his father, while the second son does. Shakespeare plays up the same kind of language of the elder brother being "rumored" to be a bastard--specifically his mother's bastard by Richard the Lionheart. King John mentions to the second son that if his father was cuckholded by his own wife, then that's his own fault--and he should have publically disowned the child before a hesitant deathbed confession to his second son. As it turns out of course the elder is indeed the mother's bastard by Richard the Lionheart in the play, and is made a knight sworn to Richard, while giving the inheritance to the second son, and the play continues with the bastard acting as a kind of audience's eyes and ears into the events of the story.

But that same type of language of "rumored to be a bastard" remains, which IMO lends creedence to the idea that it was Orys' mother who slept around on her husband. You really only have "rumored to be a bastard" if it's the mother who's sleeping around.