Protagoras Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 8 minutes ago, Spockydog said: *internet dude repeatedly fails to grasp societal and political norms of a time 1300 years before he was born* I am sure as hell not going to see Beocca as "one of the best things" when he act like I described. And, as I explained in detail above, those norms doesn´t make sense in its context either. You are welcome to explain why I should see this different with, you know, real arguments instead of belittling me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvinus85 Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 Sorry Protagoras, but you do fail to grasp that society's norms. It has been explained to you the importance of oaths in this society. The Danes had no written laws, the Saxons not much either until Alfred. So oath-taking is the form of law by which this society was governed. Maybe the show didn't quite drive this point as strongly as it should have, but the books sure do. In a later book, Uthred laments on the conflict between binding oaths and fate. (Since he is a follower of the Norse faith, he believes in the three spinners of fate who reside at the base of Yggdrasil). But of course, strength of arms is another "law-making" way. Which is why Arthur, despite breaking his oaths, manages to keep going (though at least one broken oath nearly topples him). But if every lord forgot his oaths and tried to use his military strength to impose his will on other lords, it will all explode in chaos, much like if every person with a gun said "Why do I have to obey written laws, this gun is my law." So Uthred hates Alfred, but keeps to his oath. Of course everyone has their limits, so I encourage you to read the books or keep watching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spockydog Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 48 minutes ago, Protagoras said: I am sure as hell not going to see Beocca as "one of the best things" when he act like I described. And, as I explained in detail above, those norms doesn´t make sense in its context either. You are welcome to explain why I should see this different with, you know, real arguments instead of belittling me. "You need to trust Alfred." History has proven this to be sound advice. "You need to adapt." Alfred is a Christian king while Uhtred is a pagan, raised by barbarians. Duh. "You need to find an ally in him." With Alfred, there is a chance he can one day truly become Uhtred of Bebbanburg. Without Alfred, he is just Uhtred the Traitor, and likely to be killed by the Danes. Alfred's treatment of Uhtred is less than honourable at times, but Uhtred doesn't do himself any favours. It's a theme throughout the books, and Spoiler Alfred doesn't fully reward Uhtred until he's lying on his deathbed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Protagoras Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 59 minutes ago, Corvinus said: Sorry Protagoras, but you do fail to grasp that society's norms. It has been explained to you the importance of oaths in this society. Yes, it has. What hasn´t been explained is why Uhtred swears new oaths. I think I was pretty clear in my earlier posts about my issues with the series. Is really the only response that I don´t understand its society and that is the issue. Well, if that is the case, I should abandon the series. 1 hour ago, Corvinus said: So Uthred hates Alfred, but keeps to his oath. Of course everyone has their limits, so I encourage you to read the books or keep watching. Why? Considering what you have just said, reading or watching more is a bad idea. If the issue is my take on the logic with their society and the counter-response is that I simply need to accept it for what it is - well, I don´t see why I should continue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvinus85 Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 12 minutes ago, Protagoras said: Yes, it has. What hasn´t been explained is why Uhtred swears new oaths. I think I was pretty clear in my earlier posts about my issues with the series. Is really the only response that I don´t understand its society and that is the issue. Well, if that is the case, I should abandon the series. Why? Considering what you have just said, reading or watching more is a bad idea. If the issue is my take on the logic with their society and the counter-response is that I simply need to accept it for what it is - well, I don´t see why I should continue. I suppose that should be the case. Cornwell has portrayed these societies in quite a realistic manner. If you can't go with that, good-bye and enjoy other stuff. But about Uthred - he did make an oath for a year. As Mark Anthony has mentioned in a spoiler, Uthred does leave at one point. In fact, if they follow the books, it will be shown next season that Uthred leaves not long after the battle that ended season 1. And then shit happens to him, and Alfred manipulates the situation to get Uthred back to him. Alfred wants to have Uthred at his side, because Uthred has shown himself a good tactician and strategist, a true warlord who can help keep Wessex safe. Alfred is a pretty good manipulator, and Uthred is someone who hates breaking oaths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Protagoras Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 47 minutes ago, Spockydog said: "You need to trust Alfred." History has proven this to be sound advice. "You need to adapt." Alfred is a Christian king while Uhtred is a pagan, raised by barbarians. Duh. "You need to find an ally in him." With Alfred, there is a chance he can one day truly become Uhtred of Bebbanburg. Without Alfred, he is just Uhtred the Traitor, and likely to be killed by the Danes. Oh, the suggestions had been good if Alfred actually do his side of the deal. But he doesn´t and then Beocca is back to his usual "You need to wait", "You need to adapt som more", "Alfred is an important man", etc. Adaptation without anything in return is simply not an attractive deal and Beocca should understand that and side with Uhrtred against Alfred or at least show some understanding of the complexity of the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Protagoras Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 1 minute ago, Corvinus said: I suppose that should be the case. Cornwell has portrayed these societies in quite a realistic manner. If you can't go with that, good-bye and enjoy other stuff. But about Uthred - he did make an oath for a year. As Mark Anthony has mentioned in a spoiler, Uthred does leave at one point. In fact, if they follow the books, it will be shown next season that Uthred leaves not long after the battle that ended season 1. And then shit happens to him, and Alfred manipulates the situation to get Uthred back to him. Alfred wants to have Uthred at his side, because Uthred has shown himself a good tactician and strategist, a true warlord who can help keep Wessex safe. Alfred is a pretty good manipulator, and Uthred is someone who hates breaking oaths. But he must have resworn his first oaht before this right? The marriage and the birth of his son must have been over a year ago. So, somehow along the way he decided to take a new one before the battle at the end of season 1. Ah well, why do I bother - I have received my response and for that I thank you and others. High time to throw this on the waste pile where it belongs and enjoy other stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spockydog Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 13 minutes ago, Protagoras said: Oh, the suggestions had been good if Alfred actually do his side of the deal. But he doesn´t and then Beocca is back to his usual "You need to wait", "You need to adapt som more", "Alfred is an important man", etc. Adaptation without anything in return is simply not an attractive deal and Beocca should understand that and side with Uhrtred against Alfred or at least show some understanding of the complexity of the situation. Beocca understands. He is Uhtred's single biggest supporter in Alfred's court. Yet Alfred is king. King. To expect Beocca to put Uhtred's interests ahead of Alfred's is ridiculous. Look, read the books. There is most definitely injustice. But over the course of nine books this is addressed. Other than the reclamation of Bebbanburg, there is one thing that Uhtred craves above all else. Reputation. And Uhtred becoming the most feared warrior in England would not have been possible without Alfred. Alfred gives him everything. Eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Protagoras Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 14 minutes ago, Spockydog said: Beocca understands. He is Uhtred's single biggest supporter in Alfred's court. Yet Alfred is king. King. To expect Beocca to put Uhtred's interests ahead of Alfred's is ridiculous. Look, read the books. There is most definitely injustice. But over the course of nine books this is addressed. Other than the reclamation of Bebbanburg, there is one thing that Uhtred craves above all else. Reputation. And Uhtred becoming the most feared warrior in England would not have been possible without Alfred. Alfred gives him everything. Eventually. This is a view based on foreknowledge and with all facts on hand. Alfred might give more in future books, but it is the now that concerns me and if Uhtred do the choices I logically think he should there won´t be any future books nor later understandings with Alfred (and that is solely the fault of Alfred´s). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spockydog Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 18 minutes ago, Protagoras said: This is a view based on foreknowledge and with all facts on hand. Alfred might give more in future books, but it is the now that concerns me and if Uhtred do the choices I logically think he should there won´t be any future books nor later understandings with Alfred (and that is solely the fault of Alfred´s). Yes, Uhtred makes some bad choices. But we're not exactly talking Prometheus levels of stupidity here. What do you want in a story? A perfect world, in which none of the characters show growth, and where everything everyone says and does falls in line with what you yourself would do in their shoes? Well, good luck with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tijgy Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 I do actually do not remember if and how many times Uhtred broke his oath? Spoiler I think you have certainly the first time when he killed that one priest who insulted his wife in sort of temper tantrum - Uhtred really has some angry issues, still the priest insulted one of my favorite characters. And I read the 7th only once but (I did not read the 9th yet, so I do not know what happened. I can actually not really say what happened in the show but normally Cornwell really describes why Uhtred would make an oath to Alfred. Uhtred is not really that interested in making him an oath; Alfred just knows to manipulate him very good. He knows what Uhtred thinks is important; and he has a secret "weapon" . And Spoiler IMO Alfred's best gesture was what he said to Uhtred when his wife died - I am still not over her dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Protagoras Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 56 minutes ago, Spockydog said: Yes, Uhtred makes some bad choices. But we're not exactly talking Prometheus levels of stupidity here. What do you want in a story? A perfect world, in which none of the characters show growth, and where everything everyone says and does falls in line with what you yourself would do in their shoes? Well, good luck with that. Well, books where their choices the characters do makes sense logically would be nice. I quit watching "the walking dead" because of this problem as well. Am I not allowed to decide myself what I want in a story? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
william marshal Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 it has been a while since reading the books, so my memory maybe a bit shaky. and yea, i feel the show does a mediocre job of portraying the books. although better then most adoptions. the show does tick a lot of my pet peeves with these types of things so what are you gonna do. now on to the books. if memory serves, before the raid into cornwall in the show alfred does reward uhtred. he asks uhtred to build a navy for wessex and serve as the admiral. didn't use those words but that is what it amounted to. he is also given a roman vila in the port town where the ships are being built. uhtred builds a long ship with intentions to build more and starts training sailors. he is given plenty of money to live comfortably as a noble, but needs more to build an army to retake bannockiburn. instead of embezzling like any normal bureaucrat would he uses the ship to go viking and raid, don't remember if it was wales or cornwall. but i pretty sure it was wales. again i maybe wrong but don't remember much of a sh**storm after the welsh priest told alfred what happened. if memory servers in the books he had to return what was taken and lost his house and the equivalent of loosing the navel commission. yea there is a reason why uhtred keeps being reined in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 3 hours ago, Protagoras said: Well, books where their choices the characters do makes sense logically would be nice. I quit watching "the walking dead" because of this problem as well. Am I not allowed to decide myself what I want in a story? Sounds to me like you want the ending but don't care at all about the journey. In which case probably best to sign off the show now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Protagoras Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 40 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said: Sounds to me like you want the ending but don't care at all about the journey. In which case probably best to sign off the show now. And that is exactly what I will do. Thanks for all the advice I have received. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted February 14, 2016 Share Posted February 14, 2016 Ultimately, whatever other reasons Uthred has to remain allied with Wessex, including his great loyalty to Alfred's daughter, it's made clear in every book: Uthred isn't big enough, strong enough, to go it alone. He needs the protection of Wessex at his back to remain alive. He has many enemies in all camps. By remaining Wessex's man, ultimately his chances of survival are much greater, no matter how various members of the ruling family and their courts may treat him. Just that same as with Alfred early on: he realizes he NEEDS this man he doesn't like or respect. Alfred's got his own shortsightedness -- his piety -- just as Uthred has his own, including not keeping shut his mouth when it would serve him to. As well, without a strong kingdom in the south and west, he'll never be all to retake Bebbanburg or whatever that chimera is called. He lays this all out again toward the end of the latest installment of the novels, Warriors of the Storm. Not that there aren't many legitimate questions about the manipulations to keep the series going. But that's how series do and have always operated, with many pretty contrived obstacles to the principals' proclaimed goals, just beginning with romance and getting the partner of one's choice. This even operates as we see all too much of in adventure series too -- Uthred's serial lovers and wives -- and of course his greatest love is utterly denied to him by religion, rank, birth, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tijgy Posted February 14, 2016 Share Posted February 14, 2016 21 minutes ago, Zorral said: Not that there aren't many legitimate questions about the manipulations to keep the series going. But that's how series do and have always operated, with many pretty contrived obstacles to the principals' proclaimed goals, just beginning with romance and getting the partner of one's choice. This even operates as we see all too much of in adventure series too -- Uthred's serial lovers and wives -- and of course his greatest love is utterly denied to him by religion, rank, birth, etc. In my eyes Gisela will always be his truest love. So she is also denied to him by something (which might change in the future?) I certainly like her better than the other one I think you mean; who I stopped to like in the latest books (I did however no read the Warriors of Storm yet). His daughter was however amazing in the empty throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martini Sigil Posted February 14, 2016 Share Posted February 14, 2016 I'm really looking forward to the casting of Gisela and I do hope they will work in Steapa.... moreover, I really hope they slow the story down so as to not rush through the source books... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tijgy Posted February 14, 2016 Share Posted February 14, 2016 2 minutes ago, Martini Sigil said: I'm really looking forward to the casting of Gisela and I do hope they will work in Steapa.... moreover, I really hope they slow the story down so as to not rush through the source books... Me too, and I hope we might see more of Gisela than in the books. And spoilers until book 8 Spoiler I loved the parallel with her and her daughter. And when she dies, I really love what Alfred says to Uhtred (I think it was about that Uhtred might find comfort in his gods or something like that. It was at least the only time Alfred was valued Uhtred's gods and he was just so genuine to him. I also really loved how Alfred and Gisela interacted ... Alfred the womanizer. I actually think it is funny how Uhtred thinks the whole time: "those christians and their praying and their faith" while at the same time he is also very superstitious and also really believes in his gods. But then IRCC he also thinks the Christian God does exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Antony Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 Netflix has boarded BBC drama “The Last Kingdom” as a co-producer for the second season as filming starts in Budapest, Hungary. The new season will premiere next year on BBC Two in the U.K. and on Netflix in the U.S., Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Germany, Japan, Spain and Portugal http://variety.com/2016/tv/news/last-kingdom-season-two-bbc-netflix-1201792085/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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