Queen Rhaenyra

Errors in the WOIAF

167 posts in this topic

Oh yeah, I forgot that the Andal Invasion occurred at different times in different areas; my bad. But apparently the Greyirons ruled as Iron Kings for about 1,000 years, so that would put their rise to power around the time that the Andals were first landing on Westeros. But the Teagues didn't come to power shortly after the Andal invasion. The Justmans were the first Kings of the Trident after the Andal Invasion, and that wasn't until centuries after the Andals had conquered the Riverlands. And then they ruled for nearly 3 centuries, and afterwards there was nearly a hundred years of chaos. It was then that House Teague came to power.

Hugh, this is pretty complicated. The wiki says that the greyironys came to power 5000 bc and ruled for 1000 years. So 5000 bc is when andals landed in the riverlands. Imean that is pretty long ago, so there may be some variation of some centuries. I wouldnt be too strict with that. I always thought this happened like 2000 years ago. So this means house teague ruled about 4500 years???

And this adds another mystery. The andal chapter of twoiaf mentions volantis. Sothismeans volantis is 5000 years old? I cant believe this... i think we need an updated timeline.

Do you think these are inconsistencies or not?

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Hugh, this is pretty complicated. The wiki says that the greyironys came to power 5000 bc and ruled for 1000 years. So 5000 bc is when andals landed in the riverlands. Imean that is pretty long ago, so there may be some variation of some centuries. I wouldnt be too strict with that. I always thought this happened like 2000 years ago. So this means house teague ruled about 4500 years???

And this adds another mystery. The andal chapter of twoiaf mentions volantis. Sothismeans volantis is 5000 years old? I cant believe this... i think we need an updated timeline.

Do you think these are inconsistencies or not?

Yeah, the timeline is really all screwed up because we don't actually know how long ago any of this happened. There's a massive difference between what is widely believed in-universe and what the Maesters think. Plus the wiki also says that the Ghiscari Empire was defeated by Valyria some 5,000 years ago. And since that was the start of the Valyrians' expansion, it makes no sense for the Andals to have reached the Riverlands 5,000 years ago when it's believed that Valyria's expansion was the reason for them traveling to Westeros in the first place. And I for one cannot imagine the Teagues ruling for very long, since according the tWoIaF everybody hated them. The fourth King spent his entire reign riding back and forth, putting down rebellions.

As for Volantis, yeah Volantis is incredibly old. I mean, it was the first of the Free Cities that was ever founded.

EDIT: Oh, they're definitely inconsistencies. But that's to be expected in an in-universe book. But you'd figure that the Maesters would realize some of these inconsistencies and try to explain them.

Edited by TheSovereignGrave

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So you think of them as in world inconsistencies? Thats probable. I just read adwd and noticed that lord blackwood tells jaime that the andals came maybe 4000 years ago, but that some claim it was only 2000 years ago. He also says that true history tells that the brackens usurped the riverlands from the blackwoods 1000 years before the andals came, but also says that the blackwoods themselves believe it was only 500 years prior.

So this screwes the whole tjmeline up, in universe! We also have to remind that grrm wants us to see through in world eyes, and the novels and twoiaf state so many times that for example the andal invasion could have ocurred 6000 to 2000 years ago. So maybe all this is intentional.

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So you think of them as in world inconsistencies? Thats probable. I just read adwd and noticed that lord blackwood tells jaime that the andals came maybe 4000 years ago, but that some claim it was only 2000 years ago. He also says that true history tells that the brackens usurped the riverlands from the blackwoods 1000 years before the andals came, but also says that the blackwoods themselves believe it was only 500 years prior.

So this screwes the whole tjmeline up, in universe! We also have to remind that grrm wants us to see through in world eyes, and the novels and twoiaf state so many times that for example the andal invasion could have ocurred 6000 to 2000 years ago. So maybe all this is intentional.

Yeah, I'm willing to bet stuff like that's intentional. After all, it makes sense that people in-universe wouldn't know.

But the Qhored Hoare thing bothers me, since that's something that the maesters in-universe should've caught.

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It hasnt to bother you. Look, wedont know how long before the iron kings qhored lived. Maybe only some hundred years. So jts possible that he fought the justmans, especially since it coukd also be that the andals came 1300 years or so to the riverlands before they reached the isles. Given that this is supposed to be 5000 years ago, exact dates are very uncertain and everything may vary some centuries.

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It hasnt to bother you. Look, wedont know how long before the iron kings qhored lived. Maybe only some hundred years. So jts possible that he fought the justmans, especially since it coukd also be that the andals came 1300 years or so to the riverlands before they reached the isles. Given that this is supposed to be 5000 years ago, exact dates are very uncertain and everything may vary some centuries.

But the thing is that Qhored Hoare supposedly brought the Ironborn to the apex of their power. It was under him that they ruled chunks of the coast from the Arbor to Bear Island. And that was probably way before the Andals ever came.

Edited by TheSovereignGrave

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Did anyone not see who is supposedly the author of this book? Who is intended to read it?


How could you miss that it's written by a maester (with interjections by another maester)? Also, it's been written for Tommen.



It is known that maesters often question others' interpretations on events, and names. That's nothing new. It happens in our world today.



You're not seeing errors, per se. Didn't anyone notice how certain parts are far more brief than others? Some people grasped it's back to this maester simply leaving parts at his discretion. Other parts have comparatively more detail. Plus, there's a bias in the way some information is presented.


Just remember that you're looking at it through Tommen's eyes.... Or a successor centuries after, finding this book and simply sitting down to read it.



BTW - How does it feel to sit The Iron Throne?


Edited by UtherSnow

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Andals and Hoares are an error. Grrm thought we wouldn't notice, so didn't bother that've it changed, but we did so jokes on mh for being lazy. Don't try get your head around it , but the author said it'd be rectified later.

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I also found some errors, mostly misspellings. I sent an e-mail to one of the authors but I didn't receive confirmation so it might have gone to the junk folder. I already checked the other thread and they aren't there.


http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/119534-twoiaf-spoilers-inconsistency-or-intentional/ Since the thread is locked, I post them here. I am copying the e-mail so I hope the formatting shows correctly.



Numbers like 53i mean the mistake is in the insert on that page. I also included the inconsistent numbering systems (i.e. twenty-two instead of two-and-twenty, considering the latter to be correct). Numbers from 11 to 19 would present a bigger problem since other names would have to be modified as well (Fourteen Flames of Valyria, for example). At least, I believe these two should be modified: on page 191 'ten-and-seven' to either 'seven-and-ten' or 'seventeen'; page 189 'ten-and-four' to 'four-and-ten' or 'fourteen'.



53i- Valryia/Valyria


141- give it the Night's Watch/give it to the Night's Watch


145- before King of Winter/before the King of Winter


176- Strange tales like this/these. Yet even more than the fisherman/fishermen


199- say with certainly/certainty


202, 203- On page 202, when Tywin rode to destroy the Tarbecks and Reynes, it is said that he 'rode forth himself with five hundred knights and three thousand men-at-arms and crossbowmen behind him.' Then on page 203, 'The Red Lion arrived in time to see the flames. Two thousand men rode with him', but then it says 'Tywin Lannister had three times his strength, most accounts agree; some insist the Lannisters outnumbered the Reynes five to one.'


238- south bank of Greenwood/Greenblood


241- water enough/enough water


304- in yurts, tents, and saddles, a proud, restless, warlike race/ in yurts, tents, and saddles; a proud, restless, warlike race



Targaryen lineage: Joffery/Joffrey Velaryon son of Rhaenyra



Stark lineage twins numbering system - twins Cregard and Torrhen are 1 in birth order, next Arrana is 3. But in the Targaryen and Lannister family trees, twins together are counted as number 1, and the next son or daughter is number 2:


  • The Targaryen lineage shows Jaehaera and Jaehaerys are 1, next Maelor is 2; also, Aelora and Aelor are 1, Daenora is 2.
  • The same for the Lannister lineage, where Cersei and 'Jamie' are 1, then Tyrion is 2; Tywald and Tion are 1, Tytos is 2.


Numbering inconsistencies:



5- fourteen/four-and-ten. twelve/two-and-ten


8- twelve thousand/two-and-ten thousand


17i- twenty-seven/seven-and-twenty


19- thirty-one/one-and-thirty


25- twenty-seven/seven-and-twenty


31i- twelve/two-and-ten


40- fifty-five thousand/five-and-fifty thousand


49- twenty-seven/seven-and-twenty


51i- ninety-four/four-and-ninety


55 - twenty-seven/seven-and-twenty. twenty-eighth/????


57- fifteen/five-and-ten


60- forty-six/six-and-forty


65- fifteen/five-and-ten


77- twenty-second/????


80- fourteen/four-and-ten. twenty-second/????


83 - seventy-nine/nine-and-seventy


83i - seventy-nine/nine-and-seventy


84- eighteen/eight-and-ten


85- sixteenth/????


86- thirty-six/six-and-thirty


87- twenty-sixth/????


93- forty-first/????


94- fourteen/four-and-ten


95- twelfth/????


98- fourteen/four-and-ten. sixteen/six-and-ten


99- fourteen/four-and-ten


101- seventeen/seven-and-ten


108- sixty-nine/nine-and-sixty. nineteen/nine-and-ten


109- fifteen/five-and-ten. fourteen/four-and-ten. eighteen/eight-and-ten


112- thirty-seven/seven-and-thirty


113- eighteen/eight-and-ten


117- seventeen/seven-and-ten


155- sixty-four/four-and-sixty


156- ninety-nine/nine-and-ninety


160- forty-nine/nine-and-forty


164- sixteenth/??


167- fourteen/four-and-ten


172- forty-three/three-and-forty


175- thirty-one/one-and-thirty. thirteen/three-and-ten


179- sixteen/six-and-ten


182- twenty-two/two-and-twenty. thirty-eight/eight-and-thirty


186- sixty-fourth/???


189- ten-and-four/four-and-ten. fifteenth/???


191- thirteen/three-and-ten. fifteen/five-and-ten. ten-and-seven/seven-and-ten


199- thirty-one/one-and-thirty


200- nineteen/nine-and-ten. fifty-five-year-old/five-and-fifty-year-old


208i- twelve/two-and-ten


211- twelve/two-and-ten. ninety-three/three-and-ninety. eighty-one/one-and-eighty


212- ninety-six/six-and-ninety


232i- thirty-seven/seven-and-thirty


233ii- seventy-seven/seven-and-seventy. seventy-seven/seven-and-seventy. fifty-five/five-and-fifty


275i- sixteen/six-and-ten


300i- ninety-nine/nine-and-ninety


302i- fifteenth/???. twenty-second/???. thirty-fourth/???.


303- seventeenth/???. sixty-ninth/???


305- forty-second/???. thirteen/three-and-ten. thirteen/three-and-ten. forty-third/???


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There's no numbering inconsistency. GRRM himself has characters use both forms of numbering in the same books. It's not a consistent rule in Westeros. Thanks for the other notes, however, will double-check them.

Edited by Ran

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There's no numbering inconsistency. GRRM himself has characters use both forms of numbering in the same books. It's not a consistent rule in Westeros.

Ran, whats the matter with points we noticed earlier about the basilisk corsairs, house teague etc.? Are these inconsistencies or not?

It would be nice if you could clarify something. Thank you.

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4) hm, it never sounded like there were two qhoreds.

FWIW, Qhored is introduced as Qhored I (and whether he's a Hoare or not is a bit of question mark, though for expedience he is referred to as Qhored Hoare as our maester decides that is likeliest). There were other Qhored Hoares, both in the driftwood king era and the post-driftwood era.

Edited by Ran

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FWIW, Qhored is introduced as Qhored I (and whether he's a Hoare or not is a bit of question mark, though for expedience he is referred to as Qhored Hoare as our maester decides that is likeliest). There were other Qhored Hoares, both in the driftwood king era and the post-driftwood era.

Ok, but in the iron islands driftwood crowns section it is written that qhored I fought house justman and ended their line. Or is this an error? However, when will there be an errata sheet?

Edit: from the grasslands section we learn that khal dhako sacked ibbish in the century of blood 400 years ago. This is repeated several times, so i think its correct. However, the ib section says that ibbish was safked by dhako 200 years ago. I guess this is just a small typing error, just wanted to remark it.

Btw how old is volantis/the free cities used to be? Im asking because the section on the andals mentions it when they still lived in essos. Also the section on the north says that maybe even slavers out of valyria or volantis attacked the wolfs den before the andal migration. This makes volantis pretty old, much older than we ever thought. Ok, volantis isthe oldest free city, but what about norvos? We learn that the lorathi andals attacked that city, so it has to be old as well, given that there were still andals around. Or didnt all andals migrate? Also the worshippers of boash came to lorath 1322 bc and this was after the andals lived there and fought norvos.

Edited by Maester Mando

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FWIW, Qhored is introduced as Qhored I (and whether he's a Hoare or not is a bit of question mark, though for expedience he is referred to as Qhored Hoare as our maester decides that is likeliest). There were other Qhored Hoares, both in the driftwood king era and the post-driftwood era.

The mentions of Qhored in TWOIAF seem to refer to the same individual, at least.

*The Riverlands states the Justmans (an Andal house) were ended by Qhored Hoare, King of the Iron Islands.

*Driftwood Crowns states the driftwood kings reached their zenith under Qhored I Hoare/Greyiron/Blacktyde, Qhored the Cruel, who controlled the Sunset Sea. He sacked Oldtown and extinguished the Justmans. There was a slow decline after Qhored, however.

*The Gardener Kings states that Highgarden warred against Qhored the Cruel and his successors.

*Oldtown states the city was sacked by Qhored the Cruel.

It seems probable that Qhored the Cruel lived before Harrag Hoare.

*Driftwood Crowns states "a succession of weaker kings lost the Arbor, Bear Island, Flint's Finger, and most of the ironborn enclaves along the Sunseat Sea, until only a handful remained."

*The Kings of Winter states the Starks warred against Harrag Hoare, Ravos Hoare, and Loron Greyjoy (driftwood era) over the western North (Stony Shore, Bear Island, Cape Kraken) around the time that the Andals were attacking the North from the east.

Btw how old is volantis/the free cities used to be? Im asking because the section on the andals mentions it when they still lived in essos. Also the section on the north says that maybe even slavers out of valyria or volantis attacked the wolfs den before the andal migration. This makes volantis pretty old, much older than we ever thought. Ok, volantis isthe oldest free city, but what about norvos? We learn that the lorathi andals attacked that city, so it has to be old as well, given that there were still andals around. Or didnt all andals migrate? Also the worshippers of boash came to lorath 1322 bc and this was after the andals lived there and fought norvos.

Several of the modern Free Cities seem to be Valyrian colonies established on the site of older settlements, instead of being wholly new creations like Harrenhal or Braavos.

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The mentions of Qhored in TWOIAF seem to refer to the same individual, at least. *The Riverlands states the Justmans (an Andal house) were ended by Qhored Hoare, King of the Iron Islands.*Driftwood Crowns states the driftwood kings reached their zenith under Qhored I Hoare/Greyiron/Blacktyde, Qhored the Cruel, who controlled the Sunset Sea. He sacked Oldtown and extinguished the Justmans. There was a slow decline after Qhored, however.*The Gardener Kings states that Highgarden warred against Qhored the Cruel and his successors.*Oldtown states the city was sacked by Qhored the Cruel. It seems probable that Qhored the Cruel lived before Harrag Hoare.*Driftwood Crowns states "a succession of weaker kings lost the Arbor, Bear Island, Flint's Finger, and most of the ironborn enclaves along the Sunseat Sea, until only a handful remained."*The Kings of Winter states the Starks warred against Harrag Hoare, Ravos Hoare, and Loron Greyjoy (driftwood era) over the western North (Stony Shore, Bear Island, Cape Kraken) around the time that the Andals were attacking the North from the east. Several of the modern Free Cities seem to be Valyrian colonies established on the site of older settlements, instead of being wholly new creations like Harrenhal or Braavos.

I know that some colonieswere pre valyrian but the lorath section clearly says that qatlon the great attacked norvos, and that they in turn turned to their mother valyria.

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Ran, I recall you saying something once about publishing an errata page on the website. Is that still the plan?


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Eventually, that's the hope. We are kind of busy right now.

As to the Qhored business, I forgot that the Justman business was touched on in the Iron Islands section. Thought it was just in the riverlands. Hrm... Yes, the problem was that GRRM wrote the ironborn section mostly without cross-checking with everything else, and we only realized it when it was very late in the process. We corrected some minor things, but somehow missed that particular problem.

My solution, I think, is that there's no reason to think House Teague ruled from the end of the Justmans alllll the way down to very near the modern era. Indeed, immediately after Torrence Teague we have several paragraphs about what a mess ruling was, how often they were challenged, etc. In other words, Torrence Teague and his heirs succeeded for a few generations, then lost it, and then who knows how many centuries later some descendant of theirs had climbed his way back into ruling the realm.

Edited by Ran

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Eventually, that's the hope. We are kind of busy right now.As to the Qhored business, I forgot that the Justman business was touched on in the Iron Islands section. Thought it was just in the riverlands. Hrm... Yes, the problem was that GRRM wrote the ironborn section mostly without cross-checking with everything else, and we only realized it when it was very late in the process. We corrected some minor things, but somehow missed that particular problem.My solution, I think, is that there's no reason to think House Teague ruled from the end of the Justmans alllll the way down to very near the modern era. Indeed, immediately after Torrence Teague we have several paragraphs about what a mess ruling was, how often they were challenged, etc. In other words, Torrence Teague and his heirs succeeded for a few generations, then lost it, and then who knows how many centuries later some descendant of theirs had climbed his way back into ruling the realm.

Also, the riverlands section says that house justman came to power after the andal invasion. However the iron islands section mentions the coming of the andals to mainland westeros later, when the iron kings were in power.

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That bloody ironborn section.

My thinking is that I'll suggest this:

p. 180: By his day, the first Men of the green lands had largely abandoned the shores of the Sunset Sea for fear of the reavers. -> By his day, the men of the green lands had largely abandoned the shores of the Sunset Sea for fear of the reavers

p. 181: And late in the Age of Heroes, another crisis weakened and divided the ironborn further still. -> And then came another crisis weakened and divided the ironborn further still.

p. 182: The arrival of the Andals in the Seven Kingdoms only hastened the decline of the iron islands -> The arrival of the Andals in the Seven Kingdoms centuries before had only hastened the decline of the iron islands

In effect, this means that there were Andals present in the late driftwood king period, that they had slowly begun to have an affect on things to start with but eventually became more and more of a problem for the ironborn.

That should bring it in line with all the other sections. The Justmans were a post-Andal house some decades/centuries after the fall of the Mudds, they lasted three centuries, Qhored I Hoare took them out, but the decline of the ironborn that followed was obviously tied to the growing presence of the Andals on the mainland. And then as to Teague, Torrence Teague started a dynasty that eventually lost the throne, but centuries later another Teague had hold of things. No errata for that last, don't think we'll change anything regarding the Teagues in the text.

Many thanks for the attentiveness!

Edited by Ran

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