R+L=D, B+A=J

[Valyrian Fork]

Well, I meant more of whether they would see Rhaegar's looks in Jon's looks, whether or not the eye color is the same.

He's already met Jaime, who knew Rhaegar at least reasonably well and a lot of other Targaryens besides, and Jaime didn't bat an eyelash. Jeor Mormont, Benjen, and a few other NW officers all probably met Rhaegar and Aerys at least a few times. I suppose Benjen might have been in on the secret and wouldn't react because of that. Maester Aemon is blind, which in itself might be significant. Plus there are all the vassal lords he visits with Ned when "on tour". I forget whether Lysa and Cat have seen each other since Lysa's marriage, but if there was some kind of "family visit", it's possible he's at least been introduced to Jon Arryn. Over the course of his life Jon's clearly come across people who knew Rhaegar, Aerys, etc, and no one comments on him looking like anything other than a Stark. I don't think he's going to come face to face with JonCon and like, suddenly our boy Lord Connington becomes a JonJon shipper.

[sj4iy]

He's already met Jaime, who knew Rhaegar at least reasonably well and a lot of other Targaryens besides, and Jaime didn't bat an eyelash. Jeor Mormont, Benjen, and a few other NW officers all probably met Rhaegar and Aerys at least a few times. I suppose Benjen might have been in on the secret and wouldn't react because of that. Maester Aemon is blind, which in itself might be significant. Plus there are all the vassal lords he visits with Ned when "on tour". I forget whether Lysa and Cat have seen each other since Lysa's marriage, but if there was some kind of "family visit", it's possible he's at least been introduced to Jon Arryn. Over the course of his life Jon's clearly come across people who knew Rhaegar, Aerys, etc, and no one comments on him looking like anything other than a Stark. I don't think he's going to come face to face with JonCon and like, suddenly our boy Lord Connington becomes a JonJon shipper.

...obviously, I meant that they would need to KNOW that Jon is Rhaegar's son first. Hence my wording of 'reaction'. You can only see something in someone if you know what you are looking for in the first place. Jon looks enough like his mother that no one would take real notice.

In any case, when exactly did Jaime 'meet' Jon? He may have briefly glanced at him (but there's really no evidence of it), but they most certainly didn't talk.

[Valyrian Fork]

...obviously, I meant that they would need to KNOW that Jon is Rhaegar's son first. Hence my wording of 'reaction'. You can only see something in someone if you know what you are looking for in the first place. Jon looks enough like his mother that no one would take real notice.

In any case, when exactly did Jaime 'meet' Jon? He may have briefly glanced at him (but there's really no evidence of it), but they most certainly didn't talk.

Robert and company were clearly hanging around for a good chunk of time, like at least a week or so, probably more. The Stark and Lannister kids had lessons together, Bob and Ned went riding, etc etc. And that's before Bran got thrown out of the window and was "dying for days" that Robert complains about. It was a pretty good chunk of time, not just a rapidfire succession of the scenes that are covered in the book straight one after the other.

[JonSnow4President]

Robert and company were clearly hanging around for a good chunk of time, like at least a week or so, probably more. The Stark and Lannister kids had lessons together, Bob and Ned went riding, etc etc. And that's before Bran got thrown out of the window and was "dying for days" that Robert complains about. It was a pretty good chunk of time, not just a rapidfire succession of the scenes that are covered in the book straight one after the other.

But, some combination of Starks strove to keep Jon separate from the royal family for every instance we are privy to during their trip there.

[kimim]

...obviously, I meant that they would need to KNOW that Jon is Rhaegar's son first. Hence my wording of 'reaction'. You can only see something in someone if you know what you are looking for in the first place. Jon looks enough like his mother that no one would take real notice.In any case, when exactly did Jaime 'meet' Jon? He may have briefly glanced at him (but there's really no evidence of it), but they most certainly didn't talk.

Ita. Other thing is people tend to exaggerate their ability to recognize a parent by looking at the kid, and that's not easy to do. At Westeros where genetics are weird, it's gotta be even harder. You can identify Ned's kids by their character, maybe, but in appearance 4/5 take after their mother. JonCon may be certain that Aegon is Rhaegar's son, but is that really trustworthy?

Lol I can't believe I'm arguing in favor of this. I believe Jon is Rhaegar's son, but I really dislike Rhaegar and love Ned. Here's to hoping Jon is Ned's son by a nice innkeeper.

[sj4iy]

Robert and company were clearly hanging around for a good chunk of time, like at least a week or so, probably more. The Stark and Lannister kids had lessons together, Bob and Ned went riding, etc etc. And that's before Bran got thrown out of the window and was "dying for days" that Robert complains about. It was a pretty good chunk of time, not just a rapidfire succession of the scenes that are covered in the book straight one after the other.

Jon is a bastard and beneath their contempt. Jaime was an asshole who wouldn't have remotely cared about noticing him. Anyway, you are making an assumption without some evidence of Jaime ever paying attention to Jon- of which there is none.

[Valyrian Fork]

But, some combination of Starks strove to keep Jon separate from the royal family for every instance we are privy to during their trip there.

Just the Feast. Plus Tyrion comes up to him basically like "lol seen u around bro, u hatin' ur dad bro? u hatin' ur bastard lyfe bro?". He'd clearly had enough time to form a pretty accurate impression of Jon. Granted, Jaime's kind of busy fucking his sister and assaulting grade schoolers, but there's no reason to think he didn't at least see Jon around. Doesn't Jon even say it's only the official feast where he's not eating with the fam?

I just think it's really unlikely that anyone, even JonCon, is going to stare deep into Jon's eyes and be all "zomg!!! R+L=J!!!!"

[sj4iy]

Ita. Other thing is people tend to exaggerate their ability to recognize a parent by looking at the kid, and that's not easy to do. At Westeros where genetics are weird, it's gotta be even harder. You can identify Ned's kids by their character, maybe, but in appearance 4/5 take after their mother. JonCon may be certain that Aegon is Rhaegar's son, but is that really trustworthy?

Lol I can't believe I'm arguing in favor of this. I believe Jon is Rhaegar's son, but I really dislike Rhaegar and love Ned. Here's to hoping Jon is Ned's son by a nice innkeeper.

My son is unmistakeable as my child. My daughter, though, looks nothing like me. People might think she was my sister's, though, and has been. My aunt adopted her son and everyone compliments her on how much he looks like her.

Which is why Jon passes for Ned's son- people see that in him, and have no reason to question otherwise.

[BettyCrocker]

I just think it's really unlikely that anyone, even JonCon, is going to stare deep into Jon's eyes and be all "zomg!!! R+L=J!!!!"

hahahahaha! Can you imagine.? I'd love to see that.

[sj4iy]

Just the Feast. Plus Tyrion comes up to him basically like "lol seen u around bro, u hatin' ur dad bro? u hatin' ur bastard lyfe bro?". He'd clearly had enough time to form a pretty accurate impression of Jon. Granted, Jaime's kind of busy fucking his sister and assaulting grade schoolers, but there's no reason to think he didn't at least see Jon around. Doesn't Jon even say it's only the official feast where he's not eating with the fam?

I just think it's really unlikely that anyone, even JonCon, is going to stare deep into Jon's eyes and be all "zomg!!! R+L=J!!!!"

Seeing Jon isn't the issue. He has the Stark looks- like Ned. Why would Jaime glean anything out of that?

Jaime would need something to interest him in Jon before he could get past the superficial and really see what's there. IE: he'd have to have some reason to believe that Jon isn't Ned's in the first place. Something he would have no reason to believe even as of book 5.

I would like to see if Jaime does find out. He has a clue in that Hightower died at the ToJ...and we know that he feels guilt over Rhaegar's children. He also wants to fill those pages. I think it sets Jaime up perfectly for some role concerning Jon at some point...whether Martin does it, though, is another story.

[Steve Stark]

There are all of these theories on the internet (some of which I love and support, for the record), but GRRM has made it clear that he has made a few mistakes with his original timeline and the fans have noticed due to the internet forums and...you know, all of that. We've had a lot of time in between books to really study what he's put down on paper, and he's human and bound to make a couple of mistakes. He's writing a captivating story, and I don't think he was originally as worried about the historical timeline (nor did he know how big the world of ASOIAF actually was if I had to guess). It "grew in the telling", as he has been known to say.

But a lot of people "disprove" theories by travel time discrepancies, or even the length of pregnancy and age of children. Well in a world where winters can last a lifetime, where time is a bit distorted from our own, who's to say that pregnancies last 9 months in the ASOIAF universe? I mean, I think they do, don't get me wrong. George has probably said as much at some point (I've listened to so many of his interviews that I might have missed that fan question). But I'm about to turn 30, and my memory is already horrible. But George can honestly fix his "timeline mistakes" with any number of fix actions that he can create on a whim (although with his personality I'm sure they'll be rather thought out changes to bandage his mistakes). He's the god of ASOIAF...which means whatever he writes in the next published work is canon, regardless of how much we calculate time and distance with our outer-ASOIAF-worldly equations of time and space.

I'm just saying: I like it when the STORY itself, and the characters, and the plot are what drive a theory. Timelines on travel distance and pregnancy lengths are helpful in some ways, and lend a little bit of strength to a theory, but I don't think they can be fully counted on to prove/disprove anything.

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

I have been a huge fan of the R+L=J theory since I first heard about it a couple of years ago. As a casual reader of the series at the time, I had not thought much about who Jon's mother was, or for that matter, if Ned was his actual father. So, naturally, when I came across that thread it blew my mind. However, recently the theory, though backed by much textual evidence, has gone virtually unchallenged and has many people convinced that it is cannon. It is not, though. At least not yet.

I believe the best way to prove a theory is to test it against opposing theories which attempt to explain the same occurrence. The text has convinced me that Jon is not Ned's bastard. The series has yet to give any concrete proof though, that Jon is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna. In order for fresh discussion to take place about this, I would like to introduce a (hopefully) new theory among this forum which postulates that Jon is the son of Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne, while Dany is the daughter of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Scandalous stuff, I know.

This is not my idea. I provided the links to the video. Please watch them as I will give my two cents about them below.

Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-u2gUM4Vvc

Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olUOUdlNvyg

Part 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXGBP4SVwcc

There are many things prestonjacobs brings up which does give me pause to rethink R+L=J. For instance, Ashara Dayne was a major factor in the Tourney of Harrenhall, and she continues to haunt Barristan to this day. Ashara must have been a bigger influence in these events than the author has let on, else why have her mentioned as an object of desire for multiple people throughout the novels. Also, Dany’s childhood image of her ‘home’ does not correlate to images from characters depicting what Braavos looks and sounds like. Running bare foot towards a large house with a red door and a lemon tree, doesn’t sound like it could happen in cold, damp, smelly, citrus-fruitless Braavos. (Though I must confess, a lemon could still grow in colder climates, just not bear fruit). Quaithe’s continuous instance for Dany to ‘remember who you are’ could further be interpreted as Dany not actually knowing ‘who she is’. Furthermore, Ned’s dilemma in King’s landing makes much more sense if it was related to a promise made about Dany, rather than to Jon. I do not agree that the dreams where induced by magic, as there is no indication of that. But, they do seem to sway him to stay in King’s Landing after Dany’s life is threatened. Finally, there is a nice symmetry about 2 ‘ice and fire’ couples get together and producing 2 children which embody opposing elements. Especially in a world where the ‘elements’ or seasons are so out of sync and wack as crack… Sorry.

I would also like to add my own thoughts to strengthen this argument. When Dany in the House of the Undying, the phrase “daughter of three” is brought up. This would fit if Lyanna was married (or joined in some other way) to Rhaegar who was also married to Ellia. Also in the House of the Undying, Dany’s vision of Rhaegar speaking with Ellia about how there must “[be] one more” child, while looking directly at Dany. Moreover, it is Dany who is constantly pushing the ‘star-crossed lovers’ romance between Rhaegar and ‘the woman he died fighting for’. It would be ironic if that woman turned out to be her mother and her idolized ‘brother’ was her father.

B+A=J would also still fit with Jon’s dreams about the crypts and how there seems to be some secret within them. Additionally, it doesn’t displace any identity issues Jon has gone through in the series as a bastard of a Stark. It should be said that it is possible that Brandon and Ashara had got married before Jon was born, but not probable. This would also explain the hazy answer George R.R. Martin gave when Barristan was thinking about how Ashara had turned to ‘Stark’ instead of him. Why ‘Stark’? Why not ‘Ned Stark’ if it had already been established in the books that something emotional was connecting those two characters?

Finally, Ashara bearing a child from a Stark does seem to be cannon; however, we have 2 conflicting stories about that child. One story claims that it was Jon Snow, but fathered by Ned, the other claims that it was a still-born girl. If there had been both a baby boy and girl in Starfall both stories from reputable sources would have some credence.

There are, nevertheless, some issues I have with this theory. For one, it is complexly complicated (not sorry). Secondly, I would actually like to know when Ashara and Brandon had time to reproduce. Granted, they had more opportunities than Ned would have had to copulate with Ashara. But, I find it unlikely that she would have crept down to the dungeons to have some kinky BD/SM sex with a Stark. (Actually, who knows? Women’s sex drives were massively suppressed in those days, so maybe this was the best opportunity to let loose and literally ‘screw the man’!). I also find the argument about how Ned ‘not thinking about Rhaegar in several years’ to discredit Jon as Rhaegar’s son to be kind of hollow. When I think about certain people in my life, I don’t think about their fathers and mothers, I think of them as individuals – distinct from who their parents were. This is especially true if one or both parents weren’t around for me to make connections between them. (Hopefully this makes sense.) I also think it would make sense for Ned to have some repressed memories about the whole incident. He does admit to memory loss surrounding the Tower of Joy fiasco, so repressing other thoughts I believe would come naturally to him. This does not, in any case, discredit this theory completely and I believe it’s still treading water.

That’s all I can think of for now. Hopefully you’ll have viewed prestonjacobs’ take upon the matter and add your two cents to the topic. I think this theory is well thought out and is worth some sort of general discussion among this forum. This is my first ever post so I would really appreciate it if you don’t completely tear me to shreds.

Thanks.

This isn't the first time this idea has been posted, there is nothing new in it. I thought it myself for a while before coming to these forums and even after for awhile. I don't dismiss the possibility of twins, but what Ser Barristan Selmy said was not something he witnessed, only something that was told to him and anyone else. Perhaps he thought it was Ned or Brandon because of the tourney at Harrenhal. Ned was said to have danced with Ashara, but only after Brandon spoke to her on his behalf. So, of course, George throws in our face which Stark he is speaking of to figure out.

Ned, The "Quiet Wolf" or Brandon "The Wild Wolf" who seems much more likely. Even though he was already betrothed, this did not stop him from sleeping with other women. Was it Benjen Stark? Was her suicide the reason he took the black, or is it really only that there were recruiters at the tourney saying how much they needed good men on the Wall?

Did she actually commit suicide or was it a story made up to cover her disappearance from Star Fall?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Seeing Jon isn't the issue. He has the Stark looks- like Ned. Why would Jaime glean anything out of that?

Jaime would need something to interest him in Jon before he could get past the superficial and really see what's there. IE: he'd have to have some reason to believe that Jon isn't Ned's in the first place. Something he would have no reason to believe even as of book 5.

I would like to see if Jaime does find out. He has a clue in that Hightower died at the ToJ...and we know that he feels guilt over Rhaegar's children. He also wants to fill those pages. I think it sets Jaime up perfectly for some role concerning Jon at some point...whether Martin does it, though, is another story.

I'm getting an awesome (and extremely unlikely) visual of Jaime writing "R+L=J" in the margins of the White Book.

[sj4iy]

I'm getting an awesome (and extremely unlikely) visual of Jaime writing "R+L=J" in the margins of the White Book.

Admittedly, Jaime is one of my favorite characters, so I would love for him to face the dilemma of having to choose Rhaegar's son or his own family. Honor vs family, yet again- and see how Jaime reacts this time.

[Rhaegar Targaryen's Ghost]

No. Don't put any stock in these videos, the guy makes crackpots like others breathe.

Brandon was dead for a year when Jon was conceived. Lyanna was dead for half a year when Dany was born. And that's just the most egregicious argument against that "theory".

Thank you.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

If R+L=J is true, then why introduce a family that is not Valyrian ancestry but possess their features, the Daynes ?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

If R+L=J is true, then why introduce a family that is not Valyrian ancestry but possess their features, the Daynes ?

To make it harder to figure out. To make the idea of swapping a baby out for a double more plausible. Because GRRM likes to mess with us. Any number of reasons really.

The thing is that there is zero reason for Ned to keep Jon's mother's name a secret unless it was Lyanna. And if Lyanna was his mother, Rhaegar was most likely his father.

[Steve Stark]

Just the letter from GRRM to his publisher from 1993 is proof enough for me that the secret of Jon's parentage is a big deal to the story. The only way it's worthy of being a big deal and a worthy secret for Ned to hide is if Lyanna and Rhaegar are Jon's parents. Not to mention the endless clues George gave throughout the first book. In my mind it is fact, it's only a question of how it will be revealed in the story and what ramifications it will have to the plot. The whole "it's not a matter of IF, but WHEN."

[IceFire125]

Just the letter from GRRM to his publisher from 1993 is proof enough for me that the secret of Jon's parentage is a big deal to the story. The only way it's worthy of being a big deal and a worthy secret for Ned to hide is if Lyanna and Rhaegar are Jon's parents. Not to mention the endless clues George gave throughout the first book. In my mind it is fact, it's only a question of how it will be revealed in the story and what ramifications it will have to the plot. The whole "it's not a matter of IF, but WHEN."

That's right! and also, Howland Reed.

We will meet Howland Reed, but not in the next book... he(Howland) knows just to much about the central mystery of the book...

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Sentry_Box_Books_Signing_Calgary_Canada

Now, add that factor with what he said here in this video regarding fans have already guess what he's going to reveal in book 6 'TWOW'.

Starting @ 10:00 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFAGknnoRio

[Steve Stark]

Exactly, IceFire. With those links, and the countless hints and tips found throughout the countless R+L=J threads, how can one have any doubts at that point? And just because it's now a fact (in my book) doesn't mean George is going to do something cliché with the ending like so many are afraid of. Just because he finds out who his parents are, doesn't mean things will suddenly work for him and all the stars will magically align. Us readers will have to take the bad with the good, and I'm sure in Winds enough bad things will happen to meet that quota.

There are so many things left behind that give answers to so much about the story that I'm surprised people are surprised. I mean, hell...the original title of the final book was going to be "A Time for Wolves". If that's not foreshadowing of some kind, I don't know what is. George has let out little tidbits all over the place throughout the years, and that's not hard to do when the first book was published in 1996.

Still, even with all of these theories and such pretty much being proven as accurate, I still can't wait for him to tie up all the loose ends.