The 'UnJon' assumption

[MyLittleFinger]

I can't possibly see a single redeeming quality in Petyr Baelish.

Only person in the entire novel that understands dental hygiene and how bad breathe is nasty?

[MissMatchedEyes]

I really really hope that Jon is not dead or an unJon or warged into Ghost. No LC is just too depressing to me!

[Mikkel]

Would still fork out money for it. :crying:

Me too :dunce:

[XSarellaX]

No, but I can hope.

3 1500 page manuscripts! MUHUHAHAHAHA. With one book devoted entirely to the POV's of Areo Hotah, Aeron Greyjoy, Brienne's new travelogue and UnQuentyn.

The second part of the WoW trilogy will comprise of the workings of the various Qzzts and Xasxzzaqtrs in Meereen. Dany is still messing around in the Dothraki Sea, and Barristan spends half the book slowly descending the stairs.

"But don't worry, The North, The Vale, the Stormlands and King's Landing are going to be in the third book. It should come out soon, I already wrote most of it"

[TheLordProtector]

Only person in the entire novel that understands dental hygiene and how bad breathe is nasty?

You've got me there. One redeeming quality.

But back to what I was trying to get at :

How would 'UnJon' further the story any more than a recovering Jon?

[XSarellaX]

But seriously now, I think whatever happens to Jon' will be more similar to Bran's Near Death Experience than to Cat's ressurection.

[David Selig]

It's her complete unwillingness to listen to reason that makes me thing she's lost all reason herself. I get that she has a right to be pissed at the Freys et all, but Brienne swore her an oath and has given her no reason to suspect she broke it.

Seriously?

She has been sent on an official mission by the Lannisters, she has been given a Valyrian sword, she refused to follow an order by her liege lady to kill the enemy commander to prove her innocence. Anyone would suspect Brienne without the benefit of reading her PoV.

[TheLordProtector]

But seriously now, I think whatever happens to Jon' will be more similar to Bran's Near Death Experience than to Cat's ressurection.

Yeah, I thought similar myself : I had a bit of a crack pot whereby Jon gets his own dreams that explains R+L=J to him and then when he wakes up he has absolutely no proof and just has to continue on his life trapped as a Northern Bastard.

[Mikkel]

Seriously?

She has been sent on an official mission by the Lannisters, she has been given a Valyrian sword, she refused to follow an order by her liege lady to kill the enemy commander to prove her innocence. Anyone would suspect Brienne without the benefit of reading her PoV.

Yeah I gotta agree with David Selig there. We know Brienne is true to her word, and we know she's the closest thing to (the ideal of) a true knight in the entire series, but on the surface, she looks every bit as opportunistic as any common sellsword, for all the reasons in the quote.

Filter all that through Lady Stoneheart's obvious desire for vengeance and the utter betrayal that she felt in her final, human moments and Brienne looks guilty as hell. Doesn't mean LS isn't wrong of course, because she is.

[TheLordProtector]

Seriously?

She has been sent on an official mission by the Lannisters, she has been given a Valyrian sword, she refused to follow an order by her liege lady to kill the enemy commander to prove her innocence. Anyone would suspect Brienne without the benefit of reading her PoV.

Ah, you're probably right there Ted. But I still reckon a living Cat would be able to work her way through that with a degree of empathy...

[Led]

I think he will either get saved quickly by Mel/Val, or that the warg-into-Ghost theory will be true and help preserve his mind at least somewhat (maybe making him more ferocious?) while his body gets frozen in the ice cells until Mel is ready to help him back.

I can't possibly see a single redeeming quality in Petyr Baelish.

He promotes people based on merit rather than birth?

He seems to take pretty good care of his employees, except in some very specific cases (or if they are a threat to him)?

His actions might (inadvertently, I admit) make the world a better place for the smallfolk in the long run, if my theory of the Iron Throne falling and a council of people from all kingdoms taking over power is correct?

[Dolorous22]

I honestly don't know. It's one of the many debates that grow increasingly tedious as time ticks by. These two characters are so different from one another. Think on their deaths or the moments before. Both were betrayed, aye! But Catelyns trauma and subsequent exposure has resulted in an extremely horrific, traumatized, vengeful and thoroughly pissed off un-dead. Jon in comparison was, is and most likely will remain a far less emotional wreck of a human. He's also unlikely to find himself un-ceremoniously dumped into a river.

For me, this is Jon's opportunity to fall into a deep dream where he can finally connect with Summer, Bran and The Weirwood. Jon, as he was seen last, was not ready for any kind of war against the 'others'. Men with bows and swords will not save the realm, only a person with a strong understanding of what is actually happening around them stands a chance. As LC, it is my opinion he has wasted a lot of time on menial, ultimately futile tasks that wont make a difference. Something needed to happen to change this, and that's what we got.

[Mikkel]

He promotes people based on merit rather than birth?

I don't know, he uses whatever people are useful. Because he works outside the established power structure, their status is usually not important - but it's not through any sort of ideology on his part.

He seems to take pretty good care of his employees, except in some very specific cases (or if they are a threat to him)?

You mean he takes good care of his employees unless he decides to murder them (Dontos), or leave them to their fates (Kettleblacks) ? I guess the fact that my boss hasn't even tried to murder me yet makes him employer of the year right there then!

His actions might (inadvertently, I admit) make the world a better place for the smallfolk in the long run, if my theory of the Iron Throne falling and a council of people from all kingdoms taking over power is correct?

Pretty big if, and even so any inadvertent positive consequences of a continent-wide war, with famine, death and destruction following in its wake, that he actively and knowingly helped cause does not really count in his favor. Petyr doesn't give a crap about the smallfolk, or the nobles, or anyone. Petyr cares about Petyr. He doesn't really give a crap about Sansa either, except for selfish reasons.

[MyLittleFinger]

You've got me there. One redeeming quality.

But back to what I was trying to get at :

How would 'UnJon' further the story any more than a recovering Jon?

UnJon might be the dream of spring. He's dead throughout the Winds of Winter. The Wall is mismanaged. Strife, turmoil, Wildlings against Watchmen. The Wall falls. Jon gets none of the blame since he's in Ghost and remains our hero who is one of the few who sees the real problem. Etc.

In all honesty him surviving his wounds straight up makes less sense unless these guys stabbing him are morons, weak as kittens or they have a hidden maester/woods witch up their sleeve. Usually if you're about to depose your leader, you make sure he ain't breathing.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

Couple of things.

First the "Jons not really dead" theory stretches credibility and good writing. So there are 4 guys stabbing him and they aren't going to make sure he's really gone? Come on. That would be very cheap of GRRM to do. This isn't "and his axe took her in the back of the head" - this is a bunch of people that want Jon DEAD.

Second, for there to be no consequences to Jons resurrection would IMO also be cheap. There are no free passes in this world. To me, Jon being resurrected by the fire God would mean that like Beric (and to a lesser extent Cat) he is now a warrior for the light first, and Jon second.

Finally, I don't think that being fire resurrected means he wil be totally changed. His personality and drive will in some ways be amplified - like catelyns desire for vengeance seems to have been. There seems to be a sort of freezing in place for the other two who were brought back. So, for Jon that would mean his own goals at the time will be important but not much else. His goals are first and foremost the defense of humanity. That's what will drive him from this point on.

[MoIaF]

Couple of things.

First the "Jons not really dead" theory stretches credibility and good writing. So there are 4 guys stabbing him and they aren't going to make sure he's really gone? Come on. That would be very cheap of GRRM to do. This isn't "and his axe took her in the back of the head" - this is a bunch of people that want Jon DEAD.

Second, for there to be no consequences to Jons resurrection would IMO also be cheap. There are no free passes in this world. To me, Jon being resurrected by the fire God would mean that like Beric (and to a lesser extent Cat) he is now a warrior for the light first, and Jon second.

Finally, I don't think that being fire resurrected means he wil be totally changed. His personality and drive will in some ways be amplified - like catelyns desire for vengeance seems to have been. There seems to be a sort of freezing in place for the other two who were brought back. So, for Jon that would mean his own goals at the time will be important but not much else. His goals are first and foremost the defense of humanity. That's what will drive him from this point on.

I agree, although, I think his mind will be pretty much "intact" in that he'll be warged into Ghost and so he won't suffer the trauma of the other two. But, yes, there will be repercussions to his death and revival, that's how GRRM has set it up.

[David Selig]

Couple of things.

First the "Jons not really dead" theory stretches credibility and good writing. So there are 4 guys stabbing him and they aren't going to make sure he's really gone? Come on. That would be very cheap of GRRM to do. This isn't "and his axe took her in the back of the head" - this is a bunch of people that want Jon DEAD.

GRRM has done it already plenty of times in the series. He loves "fake death" cliffhangers. Brienne in AFFC, Theon at the end of ACOK, Davos at the end of ACOK, the last Catelyn chapter in ACOk which ended with Catelyn asking Brieene for her sword and people were thinking she was about to kill Jaime, etc,

[BulletTooth_Tony]

The only thing that keeps me on the extreme side of "Jon's not dead" is that it doesn't seem to me that Mel even knows that resurrection is even possible. She never has any interaction with Thoros to know what he had done with Beric, as she did on TV. If he dies, he can't be dead for any length of time or he'll be a wight, ice will not preserve him. Frankly, to the extreme end, I think he not only survives the encounter, but does so without losing a drop of blood. Born again, amidst the salt and smoke...

[MoIaF]

The only thing that keeps me on the extreme side of "Jon's not dead" is that it doesn't seem to me that Mel even knows that resurrection is even possible. She never has any interaction with Thoros to know what he had done with Beric, as she did on TV. If he dies, he can't be dead for any length of time or he'll be a wight, ice will not preserve him. Frankly, to the extreme end, I think he not only survives the encounter, but does so without losing a drop of blood. Born again, amidst the salt and smoke...

He touches his wounds and sees blood in his hand. He's bleeding, profusely.

"He cut me. When he put his hand to the side of his neck, blood welled between his fingers. “Why?”"

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

I can't possibly see a single redeeming quality in Petyr Baelish.

I agree with you completely. I detest him. I don't care how smart he is, he is as much of a killer as Gregor Clegane. Just because you do it with panache doesn't mean you're more honorable.