The 'UnJon' assumption

[A spoon of knife and fork]

I strongly suggest you all to read this.

wow that is an incredibly silly analysis.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I'm not sure he's actually dead. But if he is, and he's resurrected in some way, I think his consciousness being in Ghost is what will keep him from being a Beric or an UnCat. Him warging into Ghost essentially means that for now, his consciousness is "holding" (and, yeah, if it stayed in Ghost long-term, it would deteriorate). Whereas with UnCat and Beric, they didn't have that "vessel" to hold their consciousnesses, meaning that deterioration began immediately. In Catelyn's case, being dead a few days was enough to completely warp her personality.

But if Jon is out for a short period, in theory, he could return to his healed body from Ghost and be more or less as he was before, with maybe a bit of wolfish-ness. This is essentially what Melisandre sees: man to wolf and back to man.

[Shadow Cat 75]

I think the fact that Jon warged into Ghost will save him from changing too much, all the others who have come back had their mind changed the most. Jon's mind is safe inside Ghost and while he may gain some more wolf like traits he will still mostly be Jon. The real shock to his system will be when he finds out who his parents really are if R+L=J is true.

[DarkRose_9]

ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: So why did you kill Jon Snow?

GEORGE R.R. MARTIN: Oh, you think he’s dead, do you?

Well, I guess. Yes. That’s how I took it. The way it was written, it sounded like he was mortally wounded — and, you know, it’s you!

Well. I’m not going to address whether he’s dead or not. But as to why — didn’t you think the text established why they would want to assassinate him?

It’s a harsh chapter in terms of fan expectations. You go from this total high of Jon giving this rousing speech about going after the evil Ramsay Bolton, to this utter low of his men turning against him. So fans are not supposed to draw that conclusion he’s dead?

What I’m seeing from early reactions, admittedly just a handful, I think fans are going to split and argue about it until the next book comes out.

Please explain how what you quoted is inconsistent with literally any interpretation of the event, up to and including Jon is permanently dead, let alone the many interpretations wherein Jon dies and is resurrected.

People can stab Jon for a stupid reason but it would take a complete imbecile not to check that he's dead. 4-5 people is plenty for them to make sure. It's very much unlike the other "almost deaths" we've seen in that there is no hidden motive for Marsh and the others.

I feel that people argue less about whether Jon is dead or not, and more about how he will come back in WoW. Honestly, the most shocking thing Martin could do at this point is kill Jon, and have him stay dead. Like Ned.

The problem with this is it completely kills Mel's storyline, unless Stannis really is AA.

[Lord Too Fat]

George already spilled the beans. Maybe Jon will survive because that's what happens sometimes when people get stabbed repeatedly. That would really throw you all for a loop wouldn't it. No warging.......he just got better..i guess.

Also did the stabbing incident remind anybody else of "Murder on the Orient Express" by Agatha Christie?

[Faint]

I do not think he will be at all like Catelyn given the differences in their circumstances but I am even less convinced that he will be similar to what he was before. Martin simply does not write like that. There are always consequences.

If I had to take an educated guess -- and a guess is all it is, since that is all we can do at this point -- I think he might turn out similar to Melisandre. I believe she too has died once herself but she was able to retain her memories.

So perhaps Jon will bleed black, have little need for food and sleep, and live on with the same internal fire that keeps Melisandre going.

Taking things a step further, I think the Varamyr and Melisandre chapters were partly written precisely so that we would have some idea about how Jon might survive and in what fashion.

[DarkRose_9]

George already spilled the beans. Maybe Jon will survive because that's what happens sometimes when people get stabbed repeatedly. That would really throw you all for a loop wouldn't it. No warging.......he just got better..i guess.

Also did the stabbing incident remind anybody else of "Murder on the Orient Express" by Agatha Christie?

Hmm, not really, but it's been a loong time since I've read that particular Poirot adventure.

Myself, I'm more reminded of Shakespeare's Julius Caesar, and it might be interesting to note that the play itself does not end with the emperor's stabbing, but continues with the Ghost of Julius Caesar hanging around for a bit.

[Lord Too Fat]

Hmm, not really, but it's been a loong time since I've read that particular Poirot adventure.

Myself, I'm more reminded of Shakespeare's Julius Caesar, and it might be interesting to note that the play itself does not end with the emperor's stabbing, but continues with the Ghost of Julius Caesar hanging around for a bit.

DarkRose_9, is your name Robin?

[sagaz]

I expect something like when Marty McFly's hand is disintegrating at the Enchantment under the sea dance, and then his parents kiss, and "Angel, earth angel will you be mine..." comes in full. :laugh:

No, seriously. I've recently read the complete "Jon Snow reread forums" http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/112985-jon-snow-reread-project-part-6-dwd-pink-letter/ there is a lot happening at the Wall and The North and I can't see how Jon out of the action is good for the story. Someone made a very interesting point

[...]

Four on One..

When Iron Emmett spied him, he raised a hand and combat ceased. “Lord Commander. How

may we serve you?”

“With your three best.”

Emmett grinned. “Arron. Emrick. Jace.”

Jon has practiced against multiple opponents, so I don't think he'd be thrown by being attacked by 3 or 4 stewards. We've seen him take severe blows, and still manage to come back. When something does throw him , e.g. glamoured Mance , we see him analysing the situation as he goes ,so he won't be surprised twice.

Notably, we've seen his berserker-like strength and battle lust (triggered by anger) a number of times ... e.g. , lifting Thorne off his feet by the throat .. yanking the head-decorated spear out of the frozen ground ..or in his bout with Emmett in ASoS - he's losing and is about to yield , when one blow stuns him and manages to trigger an old anger. It ends by 2 men having to pull Jon off a dazed and beaten Emmett. Jon had not even heard him yield. ..The conspirators' sneak attack , which Jon must see as an underhanded betrayal - not just of himself , but of the NW and it's purpose - is bound to raise his ire, I would think.

As Jon whispers, "Ghost," ..is he spontaneously reaching for Ghost , trying to call to him .. or is it because he suddenly sense's Ghost's presence , as we've seen before ? ... Is Ghost already there?

We've seen Summer lend strength to Bran and Jon possibly lend strength to Ghost when Ghost was injured by the eagle..will this sharing of strength come into effect ? Ghost was already angry, himself. Will this figure into the equation ?...

[...]

After steeping myself in this for months on end I realise just how much is ambiguous or outright misleading . With "Ghost," being Jon's last word in ADWD ( note the comma inside the quotation mark. That should be Jon's pause , not the writer's), I almost expect Jon's next chapter to open with , ..."to me! " , and to see Jon get up off the ground in true berserker form and rip that sword free of it's scabbard. I wouldn't have thought so on first reading, but now , something like that is definitely a possibility, IMO.

:agree:

So, No. I don't assume UnJon, even FrozenJon. only, maybe, HurtJon

[DarkRose_9]

DarkRose_9, is your name Robin?

?? I assume there's a joke/reference that I'm missing here?

[Mikkel]

Kill the boy, Jon Snow. Winter is almost upon us. Kill the boy and let the man be born.

Sure. But succinct catchphrases aside, Jon Snow the man and Jon Snow the boy are not two separate beings, or stories for that matter. In fact, except for the first couple of chapters, Jon Snow is forced to become a man soon enough, long before he becomes Lord Commander.

For the record, I don't mean it in a "had-sex-so-am-now-a-man" way, though the whole deal with the wildlings is in many ways his coming-of-age journey, and Ygritte and all that entails is a major part of it.

[C.T. Phipps]

It's her complete unwillingness to listen to reason that makes me thing she's lost all reason herself. I get that she has a right to be pissed at the Freys et all, but Brienne swore her an oath and has given her no reason to suspect she broke it. Except for the falling in love with Jaime, a living Cat would have looked on Brienne with pity, like when she realised Brienne loved Renly.

It just strikes me that she has tunnel vision now for revenge, and that's not quite Catelyns make-up.

"Jaime Lannister sends his regards."

Yeah, Cat has reason to think ill of Brienne hanging around with him.

[Maid So Fair]

We don't even know if he's truly dead so I feel that assuming UnJon is jumping three steps ahead. The wounds, as described, were not automatically fatal as it doesn't sounds as if any major organs were hit, with the exception of the one he didn't feel (which could have gone anywhere). With Melisandre and Val in the vicinity and a magical Wall not far away it's likely that his body could recover from the damage without experiencing an actual death.

And if Jon is to become UnJon, what was the point of having a prologue that goes into some detail describing what happens to a soul that is released from the body? Varamyr stays Varamyr for quite some time, even after switching bodies several times, so if Jon comes back why would he not be the same? His consciousness and character will be preserved in Ghost. He might become slightly more wolf-like but nothign like Catelyn.

[TheLordProtector]

We don't even know if he's truly dead so I feel that assuming UnJon is jumping three steps ahead. The wounds, as described, were not automatically fatal as it doesn't sounds as if any major organs were hit, with the exception of the one he didn't feel (which could have gone anywhere). With Melisandre and Val in the vicinity and a magical Wall not far away it's likely that his body could recover from the damage without experiencing an actual death.

And if Jon is to become UnJon, what was the point of having a prologue that goes into some detail describing what happens to a soul that is released from the body? Varamyr stays Varamyr for quite some time, even after switching bodies several times, so if Jon comes back why would he not be the same? His consciousness and character will be preserved in Ghost. He might become slightly more wolf-like but nothign like Catelyn.

I'm firmly in the camp that holds with Jon warging before the 4th stabbing. Not feeling the fourth dagger; because he wasn't in his body to feel it.

In fact, I believe from the first stabbing onwards he's actually in the process of warging Ghost and he's watching it happen while experiencing it at the same time.

[MoIaF]

We don't even know if he's truly dead so I feel that assuming UnJon is jumping three steps ahead. The wounds, as described, were not automatically fatal as it doesn't sounds as if any major organs were hit, with the exception of the one he didn't feel (which could have gone anywhere). With Melisandre and Val in the vicinity and a magical Wall not far away it's likely that his body could recover from the damage without experiencing an actual death.

And if Jon is to become UnJon, what was the point of having a prologue that goes into some detail describing what happens to a soul that is released from the body? Varamyr stays Varamyr for quite some time, even after switching bodies several times, so if Jon comes back why would he not be the same? His consciousness and character will be preserved in Ghost. He might become slightly more wolf-like but nothign like Catelyn.

The wounds seem pretty serious to me, one to the belly and one in between the shoulder blades. Especially the one to the belly with the dagger getting stuck there when Bowen pulls his hand away, and the shoulder blade one can easily leave him paralyzed.

Although, I agree with you that mentally Jon should be pretty intact if he wargs into Ghost. However, I think the real trauma will come from returning to a body that has either been very badly hurt or dead. That can't be easy.

[sj4iy]

The wounds seem pretty serious to me, one to the belly and one in between the shoulder blades. Especially the one to the belly with the dagger getting stuck there when Bowen pulls his hand away, and the shoulder blade one can easily leave him paralyzed.

The third knife 'took' him between the shoulder blades. That doesn't mean that he was actually stabbed- it's actually really hard to stab someone right there because of all of the bones.

And I doubt Martin's going to do another paralyzed Stark.

Although, I agree with you that mentally Jon should be pretty intact if he wargs into Ghost. However, I think the real trauma will come from returning to a body that has either been very badly hurt or dead. That can't be easy.

I doubt it will be easy, but Jon will do it.

[Greymoon]

Ok it's a bit over the top to call a quite credible theory "ridiculous" considering that Jon not dying would require some incredible stupidity from a large group of characters. Who stabs a guy to death and doesn't bother to check he's actually dead?

GRRM said "So you think he's dead do you?" Which confirms nothing. That statement is completely consistent with a scenario wherein Jon dies and is then resurrected.

It wouldn't require incredible stupidity at all. Contrarily to popular belief, Jon isn't surrounded by enemies. In fact, he's made friends among the wildlings who outnumber the Night's Watch men and the Queen's men. There's also northmen at the wall, ever since Alys's wedding, they too are likely to be loyal to Ned's bastard... Remember that they approved of Jon's plans for the wildlings and were impressed by his dealings with Tormund Giantsbane, and the blood price Jon requested..... also, the northmen probably approve the plan to march on Winterfell, too.

And there's one big angry giant to consider. Wun Wun might well intervene on Jon's behalf -- he's the best placed for it, and he knows Jon better than he knows Bowen Marsh and co. So, he might be moved to do something....

In any case, there's Jon-friendly people bearing witness to Bowen and co's treason. They are not there to stop it from happening altogether, but by the time Jon is attacked, you can bet that hundreds of people are pouring out of Shield Hall. In fact, Jon was ordering men around:

Men poured from the surrounding keeps and towers. Northmen, free folk, queen's men.... "Form a line," Jon Snow commanded them. "Keep them back."

p. 912, last Jon chapter aDWD.

That's right before Jon got stabbed, so there was plenty of witnesses, and plenty of people close enough to intervene.

I don't think Bowen and co. will even have the time or possibility to make certain Jon is dead before they have to defend their actions, and themselves against loyal men. And among the factions mentioned in the quote above, the free folk and northmen (from the mountain clans, I assume) are more likely to want to save Jon, than the opposite. And they outnumber the rest, easily.

The first cut may or may not have been superficial -- but the second dagger got stuck in Jon's belly. Bowen March fails to pull it back out, and Jon has to use both hands to do it....It's been suggested that the dagger got stuck on chainmail.

And before anyone points out that there's never any mention of Jon wearing chainmail, GRRM has admitted that some things, entire dialogues for example, he has purposely left out of the narrative. We are not following the POV 24hours a day. In fact, in that very chapter, there is a whole scene missing between Jon and Tormund... two hours of their time, right before Jon made his speech....that's plenty of time for Jon to don chainmail, he is planning to ride to war, after all. The author is not obligated to tell us everything in detail.

And if chainmail is to much of a stretch for you, do consider that Jon does usually wear boiled leather and fur on top of that. In either case, Jon would still feel the blow and even be wounded by it, but it's probably not as deep as we are being led to believe. Think of it like...a bullet proof vest. The impact of a bullet is still strong enough to knock one out, and injure the wearer -- even break ribs....

Jon felt the dagger, even got wounded by it, but how deep was the wound truly and where was the dagger 'buried'? Was it entirely buried in flesh, or was it only half buried in flesh and half in something else? did Bowen stab right in the middle, or off center? was the blade's trajectory deviated by whatever Jon wore? was its trajectory 'straight' or sort of diagonal? how wide and long is the dagger's blade anyway? There's plenty of things we don't know, which gives GRRM plenty of play room.

The third dagger 'took' Jon between the shoulder blades. Jon, carries his sword across his back, so here again, we don't know that the dagger actually stabbed him -- if it touched Jon at all, really. He feels the blow to his back, and falls to his knees....like Arya feels a blow to the back of her head and looses consciousness. Or like Asha....

And that's without mentioning the fourth dagger, that Jon doesn't feel. You can take that to mean 1) he's already lost consciousness by the time the fourth dagger stabs him, or 2) there never was a fourth dagger to begin with.

I say, the chance of Jon surviving are pretty high. IMO, it's only a matter of cauterizing the wounds, and the ambient cold, might actually be a good thing...scientists have long ago started looking into medical freezing procedures after all and it's also been the subject of science fiction.... clealry, GRRM is making it a subject of fantasy ;) as Maester Aemon says, cold preserves....

It should be noted that hypothermia has been used to treat wounded soldiers since the Greek antiquity....

Hypothermia has been applied therapeutically since antiquity. The Greek physician Hippocrates, the namesake of the Hippocratic Oath, advocated the packing of wounded soldiers in snow and ice. Napoleonic surgeon Baron Dominique Jean Larrey recorded that officers who were kept closer to the fire, survived less often than the minimally pampered infantrymen. [...]

In 1999, following a skiing accident Anna Bågenholm's heart stopped for more than three hours and her body temperature dropped to 13.7C, prior to being resuscitated. Further to the animal studies and Anna Bågenholm's accident two landmark human studies were published simultaneously in 2002 by the New England Journal of Medicine. Both studies, one occurring in Europe and the other in Australia, demonstrated the positive effects of mild hypothermia applied following cardiac arrest

All that aside, there are people at the wall or close too, who are able to heal wounds:

• Mel (Thoros and Moquorro prove that the red priests can work miracles. There's no need for the person to die first though, think of Victarion's hand.)
• Morna the witch is possibly a healer and swore allegiance to Jon, specifically.
• According to Mance's tale of how he came upon his red and black cloak, it's possible that the sisters Val and Dalla have basic knowledge of healing. Dalla is dead of course, but Val is very much alive.
• and, Clydas surely has some knowledge of healing too, no? though, he might be involved in the conspiracy against Jon...

In any case, we also have this:

• Bran's near death experience seems to indicate that Bloodraven can intervene and pull people back into the realm of the living. This is corroborated by Jojen's near death experience, an experience that made him a greenseer!
• Bran's near death, also indicates that the direwolves are a source of life-strength for the Stark children.
• Lady's death, seems to have been important for Bran's recovery.
• if it's a sacrifice à la Lady (or à la Rhaego), that Jon needs to survive, there's plenty of options here, too.

I'm tempted to say that even if Jon is placed in the storage room alongside smoked ham to become Night's Watch food, all in all, his chances of survival still don't look so bad. Unattended, in a room with low temperature his body would be preserved (see above, therapeutic hypothermia) until Bran or Bloodraven pull him out of it.

EDIT: just wanted to make clear that I'm not claiming credit for the succinct analyses of the stabbing. Most of it comes from bemused I think, who has been linked up-thread. but tbh, it's been such a long time that I'm not sure where I've read what anymore.

[MoIaF]

The third knife 'took' him between the shoulder blades. That doesn't mean that he was actually stabbed- it's actually really hard to stab someone right there because of all of the bones.

And I doubt Martin's going to do another paralyzed Stark.

I doubt it will be easy, but Jon will do it.

What do you think "took him" means? It means he was stab there. And no I don't think he'll be paralyzed but there are serious consequences to being stab there. Nonetheless, a stab to the belly is almost always deadly, especially in medieval period where they do not have the medicine to cure something like that.

[sj4iy]

What do you think "took him" means? It means he was stab there. And no I don't think he'll be paralyzed but there are serious consequences to being stab there. Nonetheless, a stab to the belly is almost always deadly, especially in medieval period where they do not have the medicine to cure something like that.

I think it's purposely ambiguous to MAKE someone think he was stabbed in the back. But if so, why not simply say "He was stabbed in the back between the shoulder blades"? Or better yet, why didn't that attacker simply slit Jon's throat? Jon was on his knees and unable to fight back when the guy came up from behind him- he could have easily grabbed Jon's hair and cut his throat from ear to ear. But he didn't. We don't even know who it was, either. Jon becomes too unreliable of a narrator to fully believe at this point- much like Arya or any other character Martin 'pretends' to kill. Jon feels something hit him in the back- but he doesn't know anything about it. Neither do we.

And a belly stab is NOT "almost always deadly". A great deal depends on the location, depth, injury to vital organs and amount of blood loss. It is very, very possible to not be mortally injured if it missed the kidneys, liver or bowels. We don't know the length of the dagger, how far it penetrated or the location of the wound. So there are many, many factors to consider there.

The long and short of it is:

If Martin wants Jon to live, he's set up the scene perfectly in that Jon is an unreliable narrator and is very ambiguous in his description of the attack. If Martin wants Jon to be mortally injured or die, he also has it set up well. But I think the latter is unlikely since it would make more sense to simply kill Jon outright than it would to go to the trouble of vaguely describing Jon's attack.

[Greymoon]

What do you think "took him" means? It means he was stab there. And no I don't think he'll be paralyzed but there are serious consequences to being stab there. Nonetheless, a stab to the belly is almost always deadly, especially in medieval period where they do not have the medicine to cure something like that.

If someone hits you really hard between your shoulder blades, hard enough to knock you down, hard enough to knock your breath out, and you expect that person to have a dagger in their hand, you might assume that person stabbed you, no? This happens fast, Jon can't see behind his back, and is short of shocked by the events.

I'm not saying he wasn't stabbed at all -- only pointing out that Jon himself, is not at all a good authority on the matter.

In an attack like that I doubt anyone would distinguishing one sharp pain from the other, most likely, a person would only realized after the fact, where exactly they have been wounded and how. During a fight, you don't always know what's happening, right?

So, imo, if the hit landed anywhere near his sword, or it's scabbard...on it, it might even feel as if something is stabbed through him -- when it's the sword's pommel or some other part of the scabbard that is pressed sharply against his spine.

His arm and hand were already growing stiff and numb. Do we assume, that Jon felt precisely what happened behind his back? Or was the first wound numbing his nerves, there too? I think it's possible he felt a sharp pain from the impact, and the hit, but that the dagger as such, didn't actually cut him all that deeply.