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[Essay] A Game of Thrones, A Game of Cyvasse


Rhaenys_Targaryen

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Amazing thread/essay.

The thing that stood out the most for me was the black pieces winning. Daenerys for the win! :commie: :commie: :commie: :commie: :commie: :commie: :commie:

That was the most exciting find in all of this, for me :) But the point of association with cyvasse pieces is that they change for each "battle" you fight. You can be associated with the black pieces in one and the white in the next.

That Daenerys is connected with an actual black dragon, does not mean that the same applies for Daenerys/Drogon and the symbolism associated with cyvasse. Drogon is not a cyvasse piece, after all.

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That was the most exciting find in all of this, for me :) But the point of association with cyvasse pieces is that they change for each "battle" you fight. You can be associated with the black pieces in one and the white in the next.

That Daenerys is connected with an actual black dragon, does not mean that the same applies for Daenerys/Drogon and the symbolism associated with cyvasse. Drogon is not a cyvasse piece, after all.

But... but... but he's black :crying:.

I get what your saying now, with the association with the black pieces. Still one of the highlights in this essay for me :)

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So sorry it took me so long to respond!! Been a bit busy :(

I was not aware that elephants live in herds run by matriarchs, so that's quite interesting information :) In the books, nothing of that is mentioned, but from now on, I'll be keeping that piece of in mind. :D

It would fit with Arianne..

Arianne and Myrcella were the main "pieces" in the queenmaker plot, and Arianne seems to be reflecting during her imprisonment, still numb, in shock.. So whether the elephant is supposed to reflect herself or Myrcella, is only a guess. My guess would be Arianne herself, as Arianne was the driving force, not Myrcella.

On Doran's onyx elephant, I respectfully disagree. Looking at Doran's objective for his conversation with Arianne, it is to get Arianne on board to aid him with the upcomming trouble, Ser Balon Swann, and as the use of an onyx elephant suggests, and the story later confirms, Arianne agrees to help him and the danger that Balon represents is averted. Interestingly enough, it is Arianne´s help that Doran wants here, so perhaps the elephant could represent Arianne, but not in the same way as her own elephant above.

How Aegon´s elephant could fit in this line of thought, or Qavo´s (both against the thin man, and against Tyrion), or Haldon's and Trystane's... So perhaps the representing of a female does not really fit here.. Or perhaps there is a pattern still to discover, which we might not yet be able to do because there is still so much from the story we still have to get. If you have any idea's on how the elephant would fit in those I mentioned that I don't know, please share.. :)

Perhaps they represent a mixture of things.. but I can't discover a driving female force for all of them yet.

It's possible that "elephant" has two meanings - literal and symbolic - an army with elephants being the literal meaning. During Tyrion match with Aegon, Tyrion moves his elephant when he begins to talk about Daenerys.

Another possible symbolism of "elephant" and "dragon" is Aegon and Daenerys, respectively. Aegon looks to Dorne for military support, the matriach symbolism at work again both in regards to Aegon's political connection via his mother and in regards to Dorne's culture of gender equality in politics and inheritance. The elephant also draws a connection between how Aegon has been taught, emphasizing trade, and the Elephant party of Volantis. Note how many different languages that Aegon has been taught by Haldon. Aegon is being groomed to embrace trade and political connection with the Free Cities - ADwD Tyrion IV: The lesson began with languages. Young Griff spoke the Common Tongue as if he had been born to it, and was fluent in High Valyrian, the low dialects of Pentos, Tyrosh, Myr, and Lys, and the trade talk of sailors. Aegon also implements elephants via the Golden Company in his army instead of dragons.

"Dragons plant no trees." In the sense of this quote, dragons parallel the Tiger party: value of war over trade. Her rule to bring peace to Meereen will fail. Daenerys recognizes this and, after her struggle for "trade" or "peace" over "war" throughout the book, she appears to have embraced war in her last POV of ADwD. If DoD 2.0 involves Daenerys and Aegon, she might literally be fighting dragon against elephant.

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That was the most exciting find in all of this, for me :) But the point of association with cyvasse pieces is that they change for each "battle" you fight. You can be associated with the black pieces in one and the white in the next.

That Daenerys is connected with an actual black dragon, does not mean that the same applies for Daenerys/Drogon and the symbolism associated with cyvasse. Drogon is not a cyvasse piece, after all.

The interesting fact is that white always seems to be the losing side. One of the influences for cyvasse is chess. In chess the white side always good first. Perhaps there is some meaning that people who start the wars don't win.

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The interesting fact is that white always seems to be the losing side. One of the influences for cyvasse is chess. In chess the white side always good first. Perhaps there is some meaning that people who start the wars don't win.

I'm not sure how the cyvasse color theme will come into play in regards to Targaryen and Stark. Perhaps it symbolizes Targaryen overthrowing the "usurpers" (one of which was House Stark) and returning to the throne by the end of the series.

A struggle between black and white also brings to mind the Night's Watch and the Others. In the context of cyvasse, hopefully this foreshadows the Others being defeated by the Night's Watch and/or humanity.

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The interesting fact is that white always seems to be the losing side. One of the influences for cyvasse is chess. In chess the white side always good first. Perhaps there is some meaning that people who start the wars don't win.

Interesting... Trying to fit this in all the cyvasse we currently have as presented in the OP:

  • Doran (onyx) & Arianne (white): Arianne started her Queenmaker plot, and it failed. Doran needs to face the KG coming to Dorne (so the "first move" was not his..)

Tyrion (onyx) & Aegon (white): This one is a bit more difficult. It is actually Tyrion who suggests playing a game, and begins to discuss Daenerys. Perhaps this one should be looked at from a broader perspective, as in Tyrion (onyx) and Varys & Illyrio's plotting team (white), where it was Varys and co who got Tyrion to Aegon, whereas Tyrion had not been planning on going to Pentos and later the Shy Maid..

Tyrion and Qavo: Tyrion and Haldon initiate this political game by going in search for Qavo. Qavo wins his game here, Tyrion is abducted not much long after.

From the Winds of Winter:

The Yunkish messenger is associated with the white cyvasse piece he knocks to the floor. The Slaver cities have started the fighting against Meereen, and they are during the battle associated with the white piece.

There might indeed be something here...

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I'm not sure how the cyvasse color theme will come into play in regards to Targaryen and Stark. Perhaps it symbolizes Targaryen overthrowing the "usurpers" (one of which was House Stark) and returning to the throne by the end of the series.

A struggle between black and white also brings to mind the Night's Watch and the Others. In the context of cyvasse, hopefully this foreshadows the Others being defeated by the Night's Watch and/or humanity.

The colour symbolism as I lay it out in the OP shows that the board changes every single time... as is the colour one is associated with. Tyrion is associated with both the black pieces (in the game against Aegon) and the white (in the game against Qavo). So I wouldn't say atm that the cyvasse colours are associated with houses, necessarily.

That cyvasse seems to have reached KL somewhere in the middle of Feast, might bring the cyvasse symbolism there as well. Which could create some interesting possibilities. And Dany might become associated with cyvasse as well.. Either is reaches Meereen (with a war going on, not that likely), or she might come across it whilst getting closer to the western part of Essos.. Volantis, or Lys, for example. We know the game is played in those two cities.

On the second part.. While I don't know if that can be incorporated with the cyvasse symbolism itself, it might be part of a larger symbolism concerning black and white, which I'm interested to look at (and I so happen to be planning a complete reread, so I'll be taking notes :) ).

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The colour symbolism as I lay it out in the OP shows that the board changes every single time... as is the colour one is associated with. Tyrion is associated with both the black pieces (in the game against Aegon) and the white (in the game against Qavo). So I wouldn't say atm that the cyvasse colours are associated with houses, necessarily.

On the second part.. While I don't know if that can be incorporated with the cyvasse symbolism itself, it might be part of a larger symbolism concerning black and white, which I'm interested to look at (and I so happen to be planning a complete reread, so I'll be taking notes :) ).

I am excited to see this! I agree that the theme of black and white (and even grey) overarches the story and applies to so many other themes. (NW - black/KG - white; black - darkness/ white is light; the B&W door in Braavos; white=purity or good/black= sin or bad except when Martin flips them so that white is not so pure and black is not so bad. Wow...this could be a long essay! So many possiblities...

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  • 4 weeks later...

I'm not sure how the cyvasse color theme will come into play in regards to Targaryen and Stark. Perhaps it symbolizes Targaryen overthrowing the "usurpers" (one of which was House Stark) and returning to the throne by the end of the series.

A struggle between black and white also brings to mind the Night's Watch and the Others. In the context of cyvasse, hopefully this foreshadows the Others being defeated by the Night's Watch and/or humanity.

 

I feel the color theme helps fit with the chess metaphor. Not sure if anything directly in the books can be made of it. However Black and White makes me think of the Faceless Men. Could be the and perhaps the Braavosi are playing both sides?

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  • 1 month later...

 

I feel the color theme helps fit with the chess metaphor. Not sure if anything directly in the books can be made of it. However Black and White makes me think of the Faceless Men. Could be the and perhaps the Braavosi are playing both sides?

Very late response, but for some odd reason I missed your post...

 

I've been looking a bit at the thema of black and white during my reread, but there is quite a lot, if you take every mention of black and white, and I haven't been able to see a straight course in it. 

 

Fantastic post. Thoroughly interesting and a great read. While just finishing my second read through recently I did notice cyvasse being mentioned and wondering if theres more too it. I love seeing things like this having impacts on different levels. 

Thank you! :)

 

Amazing research and great job with the analysis!

 

If interested, there are websites where you can actually play cyvasse! Just putting that out there, in case you want to try it out :)

Thanks! :)

 

I've found such a website once, but when I clicked "play", there was no one else online, so I couldn't play. I do wonder how such websites work, though, as we have no rules for cyvasse.. What rules do they use?

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Very late response, but for some odd reason I missed your post...

 

I've been looking a bit at the thema of black and white during my reread, but there is quite a lot, if you take every mention of black and white, and I haven't been able to see a straight course in it. 

 

 

Well better late than never and thanks for the response. Been doing a little more thinking on the issue. Braavos hasn't fought in a war in the last century (I think) the last one was when they imposed the no slaves rule on Pentos.  A rule I might add that isn't really being followed anymore. I think the Braavosi are working at manipulating powers more indirectly.than warfare. Economics (Huge trading fleet and the Iron Bank) and assassination (Faceless Men) could be just as effective.

 

Also I am still not sure what Braavos and its many organizations think of Dany and her re-arranging of the board so to speak.  The return of actual dragons has changed the game.  This is a bit beyond the cyvasse analogies and I will have to start a thread on it eventually.

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Well better late than never and thanks for the response. Been doing a little more thinking on the issue. Braavos hasn't fought in a war in the last century (I think) the last one was when they imposed the no slaves rule on Pentos.  A rule I might add that isn't really being followed anymore. I think the Braavosi are working at manipulating powers more indirectly.than warfare. Economics (Huge trading fleet and the Iron Bank) and assassination (Faceless Men) could be just as effective.

 

Also I am still not sure what Braavos and its many organizations think of Dany and her re-arranging of the board so to speak.  The return of actual dragons has changed the game.  This is a bit beyond the cyvasse analogies and I will have to start a thread on it eventually.

I'm still puzzled as to how I missed it. 

 

As to the theme of black and white.. The House of Black and White has both black and white, as the name suggests. Similaly, the Kingsguard has white for a colour, the Night's Watch black. House Swann has both a white swan and a black swan on their sigil. There are plenty of people with black hair, and there are those with hair which is close to white (Valyrian silver hair, for example). Some people have black horses, some white. There is just so much, that I don't think every instance of the mention of colour has a meaning. 

 

In the cyvasse symbolism, who is associated with black and who with white changes every 'game'. Someone who wins one political game, could easily lose the next. That, I find, is the beauty of it.

 

Braavos is certainly interesting, but I agree that it is going beyond the cyvasse symbolism for now (unless Arya witnesses some Braavosi playing cyvasse in Winds, which would mean the Braavosi would need to be added to the analysis :) ). But Braavos is certainly an interesting topic.

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In the cyvasse symbolism, who is associated with black and who with white changes every 'game'. Someone who wins one political game, could easily lose the next. That, I find, is the beauty of it.

 

 

 

If we are still using chess analogies white goes first and black goes second.  Could mean that the players who start the game aren't the ones who win the game.  There is always an advantage to seeing what your opponent does first. Although apparently in chess strategy white is supposed to have the advantage so maybe its nothing.  I heard going second is more advantageous in GO but I am not well versed in the game.

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If we are still using chess analogies white goes first and black goes second.  Could mean that the players who start the game aren't the ones who win the game.  There is always an advantage to seeing what your opponent does first. Although apparently in chess strategy white is supposed to have the advantage so maybe its nothing.  I heard going second is more advantageous in GO but I am not well versed in the game.

You've brought "white going first in chess" to my attention before :)

 

 

 

 

The interesting fact is that white always seems to be the losing side. One of the influences for cyvasse is chess. In chess the white side always good first. Perhaps there is some meaning that people who start the wars don't win.

 

 

Interesting... Trying to fit this in all the cyvasse we currently have as presented in the OP:

 

  • Doran (onyx) & Arianne (white): Arianne started her Queenmaker plot, and it failed. Doran needs to face the KG coming to Dorne (so the "first move" was not his..)
  • Tyrion (onyx) & Aegon (white): This one is a bit more difficult. It is actually Tyrion who suggests playing a game, and begins to discuss Daenerys. Perhaps this one should be looked at from a broader perspective, as in Tyrion (onyx) and Varys & Illyrio's plotting team (white), where it was Varys and co who got Tyrion to Aegon, whereas Tyrion had not been planning on going to Pentos and later the Shy Maid..
  • Tyrion and Qavo: Tyrion and Haldon initiate this political game by going in search for Qavo. Qavo wins his game here, Tyrion is abducted not much long after.
  • From the Winds of Winter:

[spoiler]

The Yunkish messenger is associated with the white cyvasse piece he knocks to the floor. The Slaver cities have started the fighting against Meereen, and they are during the battle associated with the white piece.

[/spoiler]

 

There might indeed be something here...

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  • 8 months later...
  • 1 month later...

Great analysis! It's good to have all Cyvasse references in one place. I'm not convinced that black=win every time a color is mentioned, though your argument holds true for the known cases. I mean, it could be simply be a coincidence. Or not. 3/3 is fine, but if we have more cyvasse games, black winning say 6/6 times will be quite repetitive. I took the Myrcella/Trystane game to mean that a Lannister (Tyrion) will beat a Martell (Arianne or Doran) using a dragon. Arianne possibly joining TeamAegon which has GC and the elephants was the main cause for this thought. Only now did I realize Trystane was playing the age-old Dornish strategy. :huh:

The quote about Tyrion moving his dragon over the mountains struck me as a foreshadowing for Tyrion causing Dany to conquer the Vale or Casterly Rock. Now, I understand that not everything need be a foreshadowing for something else, but we can speculate some of them could be.

Quote

The dwarf pushed his black dragon across a range of mountains.

I've seen some people suggesting "Tyrion moving black dragon" means Tyrion sending Aegon Blackfyre to Westeros. But I think that within the Tyrion/Aegon game context, the dragon is Dany. Aegon missed the opportunity to use her by following Tyrion's advice - in the game of Cyvasse as well as in game of thrones. Another possibility for 'his black dragon' is Jon Snow, who once said black was always his color (you bet it is! #R+L=J), and who called Tyrion 'friend'. Still, I think Dany on drogon is the best bet for the black dragon Tyrion sending over the mountains. Myrcella also flies her dragon over the mountains - if that was a foreshadowing, Tyrion will help Dany conquer Dorne. Then we have three kingdoms that may be conquered by Dany and Tyrion. Vale is my best bet, but all three are possible. Most probably Aegon will have the support of Dorne, Stormlands and some parts of the Reach and even Crownlands by the time Dany arrives. If Dany thinks Aegon a pretender, she'd want to defeat him and fulfil 'slayer of lies' prophecy. Tyrion however may advise an alternate course - start with controlling Aegon's expansion - he would have a hard time conquering the Vale and Westerlands due to geography and political situations. Aegon's best chance conquering Vale is using an alliance, but Littlefinger is not likely to be enthusiastic about these plans. Because unlike Lannisters or Tyrells, Aegon is a formidable opponent (especially with Varys on hsi side) - for both Iron Throne and for Sansa's affections. LF won't want him growing stronger. Aegon will never ally with Lannisters (Tyrion was a special case), so he will have to take Casterly Rock by conquest. Maybe some of them will be ready to bend the knee, but of all the 7 kingdoms, Westerlands have the strongest reason to oppose Aegon.

Dany on the other hand, will have much easier time than Aegon conquering the Vale - because she has dragons, and if she has Tyrion, they can make use of the Mountain Clans, too. With Casterly Rock, while Tyrion may be as hated as the Targaryens, he has an intimate knowledge of sewer systems and the 'friendship' of Second Sons who stands to gain a lot if Tyrion becomes Lord of Casterly Rock. Dany could make use of these resources to conquer to 'impregnable' castles, and that is sure to make some impression among Aegon's supporters. If she has the Vale's stores and the Rock's riches, defeating Aegon can be expected to go easier. This whole move, if executed, will be similar to Stannis following Jon's advice to strengthen his forces before engaging the main enemy.

 

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