R+L=J v.123

[BearQueen87]

And someone rolls out the fan fiction app again. Nice.

You mean the one George personally worked on?

[JonSnow4President]

And someone rolls out the fan fiction app again. Nice.

Yes. Dismissing one because you don't like the source (which, as BQ says, has been worked on by GRRM) completely negates the entire post it was contained in. Whatever will we do not that you have shown one small piece of information is unreliable in your eyes? Take that out, and there is still ample evidence that Rhaegar loved Lyanna.

[Ser Cold Fingers]

You mean the one George personally worked on?

Yes. Dismissing one because you don't like the source (which, as BQ says, has been worked on by GRRM) completely negates the entire post it was contained in. Whatever will we do not that you have shown one small piece of information is unreliable in your eyes? Take that out, and there is still ample evidence that Rhaegar loved Lyanna.

Y'all should know better...the author of this series is a completely unreliable source of information on his series! :P

[Ser Creighton]

If fire wins, the world is imbalanced. If ice wins, the world is imbalanced.Someone has to be the center...someone has to be the balance between the two. You can no more have Targaryens with their dragons ruling the world than you can have the Others and their ice zombies doing so. Both are harbingers of death and destruction.

I am not so sure that is the case, you see death and death does not seem to equal life and balance does it? Now symbolically speaking sure you can look at balance, but the literal I don't think exists. You see while you can point to the Others and the Valyrians and they are death, man is doing a really fine job of being his own worst nightmare. Valyria has been gone for hundreds of years, and the Others have been on a rather long break. In time man has killed murdered, raped, wared pretty much anything bad you can think of man is checking it off the list.

I tend think no matter who you are, or what are that it's about choice. Even if your an Other, you never know, we have not met all of them.

As for fire and ice there is a difference in the books. Now Valyria ruled Essos for thousands of years, the most powerful force in the world, hundreds of dragons. Yet no long day, no never ending summer, and really they were dominant but not any worse or any better than anyone else. They didn't invent slavery, they did practice, but so did much of Essos before them. But it was still cold in northern areas, you still got winters in Westeros, you still got night and day. The loong night appears to be a very different animal and sits well within ice.

Now we know what Martin said about fire nad ice and the differences between the two. But it tends to come down to choice and he tends to hold to that idea. But take a look at it, take a look at fire and ice. I suspect the Valyrians and Others are very much a mirror, at least in the past. But look at what exists, yes you have two wars. A war for freedom and a war that is creating Thralls, or at least that is what they appear to be. Slavery is probably going to be a really big theme moving forward. Now what did Dany say about Dragons? Dragons are not slaves, that idea actually repeats in her story, it's not a one off. She throws the whip away once and later we see her thinking her and Drogon muct bend to the whip a rather dangerous comprimise. But eventually that whip is dropped as well. I can't say the same about the Thralls.

Really it seems to come back to love and hate. Very much the conflict of the human heart and as we are human I don't look for the 50/50 equal division. Doesn't matter who it is, nobody is Budda in this story, just that they both exist in all of us. I think Martin will lean more towards love, after all love is very bittersweet, hate isn't. Martin even points out that after the long night it is love that returns to the world. That is not to say the Starks are hate, or Lyanna was hate, they are people, so is Dany, and everyone else we tend to get a bit a both.

I tend to feel if you go back to the reads quote you can get where Martin is going. It's more symbolic than anything. You know Rhaegar was not an actual Dragon, and Lyanna was not Elsa, and Drogo and Dany were not actually the sun and the moon. They were just symbolic of it, but it it's good to pay attention to what came from that symbolism. You didn't get Sun/Moon dragon, you got dragons.

Now I don't agree with al lthe little points about R+L=J, but I very much except the broad strokes of it and I am willing to leave the smaller details up to Martin. But something seems odd. You have seen me do the parallels with Sun and Moon and Maiden and Lion of Night, oh and Azor and Nissa. And there is a bit of a problem. Not that I doubt his parents but I am just not sure what this means. Same for Dany mind you. Nissa died, and the Moon was shattered, and the Maiden returned and the Lion was driven off. But in the case of Jon and Dany, both Parents die. Now Dany and the Dragons only one person dies, and I suspect Jon will mirror that perfectly coming up. Not Sun and Moon that's done, but probably one of the other ones. I am guessing a female will die and it will Mirror Maiden made of light and Lion of night. Mel has a very good chance of being the Maiden made of light in my opinion, you know the whole light worshiping thing. Though you can clearly see the contrast from mythology and reality here. Though it can be Stannis and Mel as well. Though both run into the whole double light thing were as Jon is of the Night, if you get my meaning? It's his Job.

Then we probably get a couple more of these A+B=C things. I would not be surprised if it involved 3 very specific well known characters that I have already named, Ron, Sandy and Brian. By the way Sansa plus Daenerys = Sandy. I don't ship personally but if you can link two names together and make on name, clearly it is going to happen. Sam and Jon = Jam and Jam is way better sounding than Jatin.

Anyway I am sure you get the idea of what I am saying, I don't think it is about two forces of destruction. Conflict yes, but fire and ice are polarities, and yes you can end up with the same results, like a war. But it's about the journey and the choices, why you fight, who you save, what you do. You may take two different roads and end up in the same place but what you do on that road defines who you are and what your story is.

[MaesterSinger]

Well, for a starter, you're misrepresenting why I personally believe RLJ is important. I don't think RLJ has anything with his claim to the throne or Jon's future kingship. I do think he'll be king but NOT because of RLJ. That will be because of his leadership and abilities during the long night and a GC will be called and will choose him, like it has in the past.

So....why RLJ? Well, for me it's blood. Jon's blood is unique. No one has ever had blood of the dragon (fire) and blood of winter (ice). That's what makes Jon TPTWP. He is the embodiment of balance and it's that blood that will allow him to do "the thing" (as I call it, and no don't ask me what "the thing" is; I actually don't know). So much of ASOIAF is about balance and finding balance between the elements, the races, the families, the sexes and also internally with yourself. Jon is the great balance. The only way Jon can do "the thing" is by virtue of RLJ. That's what makes him different.

This is how I read the series, too.

So, why all the effort on this thread to support polygamy? Jon being legitimate is only important as a support for succession to the iron throne and would have no bearing on his fitness for his role in the song of ice and fire. Being a bastard is part of who he is. He's grown up struggling with is "outsider" position, dictated by his illegitimate birth. As an outsider to society, he has to return in order to save it, and then the society which rejected him can acclaim him based on his true character. For Howland Reed, Brynden Rivers, or Uncle Benjen to come along and suddenly make him the legitimate heir to a prior dynasty would run contrary to his arc.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

One small thing:

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?

He might, or might not. There was a tradition of polygamy among Targaryens in the past, so the possibility that Rhaegar and Lyanna married is not easily ruled out. A pro-legitimacy argument is this: The presence of the three kingsguards at the Tower of Joy is best explained if they were defending the heir to the throne, which Jon would only be if he was legitimate.

Nevertheless, two people can procreate without being married. Jon's legitimacy may matter to his future development in the story, it may or may not matter to his origins.

I wouldn't call it a "tradition" of polygamy amongst the Targaryens. The World Book clearly states that, though polygamy was practised amongst the sorcerer princes of Valyrian, it was less common than incestous marriages. So instead of the sentence "there was a tradition of polygamy amon Targaryens in the past...", I'd suggest something like "Polygamy had been practised by Targaryens in the past,..."

[finger]

I was speaking more of an in-the-moment royal birth as in the theory of Ashara and Elia switching babies if Elia was the one with the stillbirth.

Likely, Elia would be in confinement with not only a few of her ladies, but non Dornish ladies not entirely loyal to her.

It's a good point, and it adds to my idea that it had to be with Aerys consent. He was mad, so could command anything and be obeyed without hesitation. He could remove everyone who had been in touch with the babies and replace them with fresh people. (In fact, he could send them all to the Wall and still they'll happy to say him goodby with their heads on.)

I see it as a compromise, if Aerys wanted Rhaegar back, he had to pay his price. It makes sense.

I'd stress that these are speculations, we don't know about AD's baby. She might have been impregnated by Ned,as the accounts of the two witnesses hint. Yet, it doesn't match with the Ned we know, but it was long before we knew him.

[BearQueen87]

This is how I read the series, too.

So, why all the effort on this thread to support polygamy? Jon being legitimate is only important as a support for succession to the iron throne and would have no bearing on his fitness for his role in the song of ice and fire. Being a bastard is part of who he is. He's grown up struggling with is "outsider" position, dictated by his illegitimate birth. As an outsider to society, he has to return in order to save it, and then the society which rejected him can acclaim him based on his true character. For Howland Reed, Brynden Rivers, or Uncle Benjen to come along and suddenly make him the legitimate heir to a prior dynasty would run contrary to his arc.

First, welcome to the boards and to RLJ!

Second, while I don't think polygamy and Jon being legit is important for the overall mythology, it is important to Jon as a character (it's more of his story and I think it might be GRRM's central "breaker of tropes" with regards to Jon. Jon will learn that he is legit but instead of becoming Jon Targaryen...he'll become Jon Stark-Targaryen. The balance of the two.) and it's important to some others--like Dany. It's something she'll need to know eventually.

It's a good point, and it adds to my idea that it had to be with Aerys consent. He was mad, so could command anything and be obeyed without hesitation. He could remove everyone who had been in touch with the babies and replace them with fresh people. (In fact, he could send them all to the Wall and still they'll happy to say him goodby with their heads on.)

I see it as a compromise, if Aerys wanted Rhaegar back, he had to pay his price. It makes sense.

I'd stress that these are speculations, we don't know about AD's baby. She might have been impregnated by Ned,as the accounts of the two witnesses hint. Yet, it doesn't match with the Ned we know, but it was long before we knew him.

Except Robert has known Ned the longest and can't imagine Ned ever doing something like knocking up a lady and not taking ownership (Ned at least claims Wylla as Jon's mother). And don't forget Tywin Lannister who, when he hears that Robb has slept with Jayne Westerling and then marries her say, "he is his father's son."

And there are no accounts from two witnesses about Ned and Ashara having sex. There are accounts that Ned was shy and wanted to ask Ashara to dance but Brandon did it for him. And then Selmy says "Stark dishonored her" but...there is more than one Stark.

[RGBeyondAsshai]

First, welcome to the boards and to RLJ!

Second, while I don't think polygamy and Jon being legit is important for the overall mythology, it is important to Jon as a character (it's more of his story and I think it might be GRRM's central "breaker of tropes" with regards to Jon. Jon will learn that he is legit but instead of becoming Jon Targaryen...he'll become Jon Stark-Targaryen. The balance of the two.) and it's important to some others--like Dany. It's something she'll need to know eventually.

Except Robert has known Ned the longest and can't imagine Ned ever doing something like knocking up a lady and not taking ownership (Ned at least claims Wylla as Jon's mother). And don't forget Tywin Lannister who, when he hears that Robb has slept with Jayne Westerling and then marries her say, "he is his father's son."

And there are no accounts from two witnesses about Ned and Ashara having sex. There are accounts that Ned was shy and wanted to ask Ashara to dance but Brandon did it for him. And then Selmy says "Stark dishonored her" but...there is more than one Stark.

:agree:

[Jon Weirgaryen]

I wouldn't call it a "tradition" of polygamy amongst the Targaryens.

About tradition. I learned, when I was in Dresden, that the modern day "Saxon"s (actual Obermeissner) consider anything that has happened once in (again, modern day) Saxony a Saxon tradition. As soon as it happened again, they'd call it a Good Saxon tradition.

That is peculiar, though I have had a hard time since to get it out of mind, and whenever "[Good] Saxon tradition" comes up as a term somewhere my internal alarm bell rings and tells it may not be a long going tradition.

So now I looked up the term "tradition" in wikipedia... read that, and after all, conclude that when Aegon I had multiple wives and then one of his sons, Maegor I as well, it is not actually wrong to call it a "tradition" or even a "family tradition".

This longish post concludes - in the end I don't mind, should people here feel the word should go, I'll gladly change that for you.

[finger]

See, there seems to be a crucial difference in approach which causes these clashes. The analysis that is done here in this thread is basically the good old literary analysis - sift the text, look for patterns, imagery, consistencies/inconsistencies, bits of information from various PoVs, what have you, and put them together like a big puzzle - you may be missing a few pieces, or there may be a few that you don't know yet how they fit, but you get the picture. You know if the picture is a flower or a ship or a couple at it, and the picture won't change because you have misplaced some bits or cannot quite figure out whether a particular piece fits this way or another. So, if you want to raise an option that the picture is not a ship, you cannot do so by taking an individual piece and show how it incidentally fits elsewhere, you need to take all of them and completely reshape the picture in a way that makes sense for all of it, not just some parts, and you mustn't end up with a pile of bits that previously fit but don't any more. Then you have a valid counter-theory - and that's something I haven't seen done since version 17 or so when I joined the forums, just bold claims and butt-hurt comments when someone's grand idea fails to fit with all the known bits. Like it or not, the picture is a ship, we just haven't been able to establish the number of masts and sails.

Now, what is the whole picture going to be like when it's completed? Will it be an outstanding piece of art? Will it match my other pictures? And how will it change the look of my living room if I put it on the wall? There is a lot of space for discussion here which can be based on the analysis but is for the greater part, speculation. Not that speculation about the role of the picture doesn't take place but, to continue with the previous ship example, it's always ship-related, somehow. No use discussing that the picture is actually a wheel of cheese. If that's an option you'd like to discuss, you'd really better take it to the Heresy threads. Here, cheese is just the hypothetical cargo.

This is simply untruth. Jon's hoolligans take what fits their theory and disregard the obvious flaws.

From time to time, someone asks like "What the heck were the KG doing in Dorne?"

He never gets an answer, and it's no wonder, because there's no valid answer. He's ignored and Jon's team goes on happilly.

Some others are trying to find a better theory which REALLY fits the facts in the text, They can do very well without snobbish dismissals from wannabe analysts.

Eta. I've noticed the invitation to leave the thread to its proprietors.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

If @Ser Creighton 's got that right it might mean all of Mel's ramblings about king's blood may be about her own blood after all? Poor Mel...

[sj4iy]

If @Ser Creighton 's got that right it might mean all of Mel's ramblings about king's blood may be about her own blood after all? Poor Mel...

Eh, I don't think that theory holds much water at all.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Eh, I don't think that theory holds much water at all.

Which one? The burned offerings of king's blood, the one just proposed that Mel will die for Jon&Dany's sins lives, or the one that Mel is of royal origin? ;) Oh, never mind :)

[RumHam]

The outcry over Maegor's second marriage has to be taken with a grain of salt because of the family ties between his first wife and HS. It is very easy for religious leaders to instigate public tantrum.

Good point, but I doubt the septon could have stirred up so much controversy if it wasn't already an issue you know? Also we know it was a problem for the faith from that SSM about defying convention, the Faith, and the other lords.

However, the fact that for some it was acceptable pre-conquest shows very clearly one thing, consistent with what we see in the series: unlike with incest and kinslaying, there is NO such ancient and generally accepted social/religious taboo against polygamy.

I'm not trying to say it's up there with killing people or kinslaying or incest. Anyway I think we can all agree there's something stopping people (lets leave the Targaryens out of it for the moment) from practicing polygamy in the Seven Kingdoms. In the past people here (not necessarily you) have suggested it is a social/religious thing and not a legal thing. Now you're trying to take away the social/religious taboo idea which leaves us with just illegality as the explanation why nobody does it.

This is actually pretty interesting. The religion of the Seven was pretty widespread but the church's influence was limited to the area of its stronghold and there seems to be a sort of schism between the practice of the church and of the religion. Did the original Andal version contain "one wife thou shalt take" and the polygamy of the more distant areas was an infusion of First Men customs? Or was this rule coined only by the Faith, perhaps aimed at the old religion?

Sadly we have no idea. It's so weird that the Andals started in the Eyrie and the Starry Sept ended up being built in Oldtown. People smarter than me have pointed out that it's odd there weren't "anti-high septons" in the other kingdoms that followed the Faith. I think it is clear that the High Septon could not have actually become a power without the support of the Hightowers or some other powerful family. I'm sure the Faith changed a lot between the Andals fleeing Essos and the establishment of a High Septon based out of Oldtown. Until the High Septon sprang up, it's easy to imagine a huge variance in the Faith (like Protestants and Catholics) between regions.

To put it another way I doubt the "Jesus" of the Andals laid down too many "Thou shalt nots." Most of those probably came later with the actual institution of the church.

Also, one thing about Jaehaerys:

Yet some say the most important achevement of the rule of Jaehaerys and Septon Barth was a reconciliation with the Faith. The Poor Fellows and Warrior's Sons, no longer hunted as they had been in Maegor's day, were much reduced and officially outlawed thanks to Maegor, but they were still present.

More pressingly, the Faith's traditional right to judge its own had begun to prove troublesome, and many lords complained of unscrupulous septries and septons making free with the wealth and property of their neughbours and those they preached to.

Some counselors urged the Old King to deal with the remnants of the Faith Militant harshly - to stamp them out once and fore all before their zealotry could return the realm to chaos. Others cared more for ensuring that the septons were answerable to the same justice as the rest of the realm. But Jaehaerys instead dispatched Septon Barth to Oldtown, to speak with the High Septon, and there they began to forge a lasting agreement. In return for the last few Stars and Swords putting down their weapons, and for agreeing to accept outside justice, the High Septon received King Jaehaerys's sworn oath that the Iron Throne would always protect and defend the Faith., In this way, the great schism between crown and Faith was forever healed.

Now, is it just me, or do we see here the Faith making concessions whereas Jaehaerys basically makes none? Because, look at the outcome: Stars and Swords unarmed, septons no longer outside justice, Targs freely carrying on with their incest and the HS just their puppet. Jaehaerys didn't need to appease the Faith, he could have crushed them.

I did once say that I thought Jaehaerys may have done it as part of his bargain with the Faith. This was before I had access to the entire worldbook. Now that we know he was the one who actually established a code of law for the Seven Kingdoms ('cept Dorne. ((Hey maybe polygamy is legal in Dorne and Rhaegar and Lyanna got married down there!))) I think that's a more likely reason for him to have done it. I'm sure the Faith's disapproval helped sway his decision to come down against it, but I no longer think it was a concession in their negotiations.

[markg171]

i don't know that we necessarily need to add this right now, but as an extra point:

Cat thinks that whoever Jon Snow's mother was, Ned must have loved her fiercely and deeply. Yet the only two women Ned ever thinks about are Cat and Lyanna. And in Ned I, we are told that Ned loved his sister Lyanna with all his heart.

Nice! I like it. Will fetch the original quote...

That should do.

Don't add that quote unless you're going to add the whole thing where Ned says that Robert loved her more than he did.

[Ser Leftwich]

Has there ever been an in depth discussion about the parallels between Alys Karstark and Lyanna Stark?

[JonSnow4President]

Don't add that quote unless you're going to add the whole thing where Ned says that Robert loved her more than he did.

Which has no bearing. It's clear Robert felt very strongly about Lyanna. No one doubts that. If Catelyn saying "whoever Jon's mother was, Ned must have loved her fiercely (or something to this effect)" is intended to be a hint from GRRM, the fact that Ned loved Lyanna with all his heart would be a subtle easter egg. It's not conclusive by any stretch, but it's a nice piece of garnish on the 5 course meal that is the theory.

[BearQueen87]

Don't add that quote unless you're going to add the whole thing where Ned says that Robert loved her more than he did.

But why does that matter for RLJ? What does Robert's love have to do with anything?

Has there ever been an in depth discussion about the parallels between Alys Karstark and Lyanna Stark?

That would be a good one to have!

[Ser Leftwich]

Which has no bearing. It's clear Robert felt very strongly about Lyanna. No one doubts that. If Catelyn saying "whoever Jon's mother was, Ned must have loved her fiercely (or something to this effect)" is intended to be a hint from GRRM, the fact that Ned loved Lyanna with all his heart would be a subtle easter egg. It's not conclusive by any stretch, but it's a nice piece of garnish on the 5 course meal that is the theory.

There is a finite amount of love that can be had for Lyanna and Robert called 'dibs.'