AGOT Reread- Prologue and Jon

[Nightwatcher]

I knew that Gared was the one beheaded by Eddard...but he was coming from a time distance of nine days from the Wall and then some distance south from it. It's strange that he didn't run into no one that he could tell what happened in that whole time. I guess he figured that was the future of the Night's Watch...to fight against cold beings that they couldn't win against.

[Mad Queen]

Hmm. One thing that bothers me on rereading the prologue is the apparent contradiction between these two quotes:

I think you just spotted a mistake, a funny one.

[Ealasaid]

I picked this book up, read the Prologue in the store, then raced to pay for it and read the rest of the day. I have read it many times since.

I thought the prologue was well-written and I could feel the fear and cold that Will and Gared felt. I, too, was puzzled as to why a young person with so little time in the Watch was commanding the rangering. I remember wondering if the fact he was a knight gave him some seniority. I haven't been able to get an answer on subsequent readings. Since Royce was all duded up and doing everything wrong (in the eyes of Will), I figured he would be the one to die.

I knew the Others were more than the threesome wanted by the reaction of all. My concern immediately was that these beings of cold would wield a weapon equally cold. I knew that would make Waymar Royce's sword brittle, so I wasn't surprised it broke. I was surprised when Royce got up and put his sticky cold hands around Will's neck.

I also wondered why a veteran like Gared ran. Unless he had never seen an Other before either. I could understand his terror, then at seeing Royce butchered and a coldly risen Royce taking down Will.

But today I wondered - what happened to Waymar and Will? What do the others feed on?

[The Adequate Jon]

If you recall, Gared was killed in the next chapter. He was so terified of the Others, or whatever he saw, that he simply wanted to get out of there as far as possible. He was, IIRC, relieved when ned was killing him. At least that is what Ned thought(IIRC-ned1 chapter AGOT)

This never made sense to me. Why was he scared of the Others? Well, ultimately, I assume he was scared of getting killed by them. Why isn't he afraid of getting killed by Ned?

[Khamul]

When I first read AGOT, I was convinced that Will was the young protagonist in the usual fantasy-cliche of young man saves the world blah blah blah. Needless to say, I got wiser . The prologue really hooked me on the book. I liked Gared, and initially hoped that he'd survive. I was really surprised when in the next chapter he was executed. And I felt that Royce was a stuck-up stupid little boy. But on reading it again, I feel a bit sorry for him. He shouldn't have been the leader of his first ranging, but since he was, he probably felt that he had to take charge or lose face (nevermind that he did that anyway).

The image I get when I read of the Others is that of the Nazgûl in LoTR - Fellowship of the Ring, where Frodo sees them in the shadowworld. Pale, unearthly and yet humanoid shadows which shifts all the time.

One thing that I picked up on here is the fact that they speak, and mockingly at that. I really wonder what they said and what language it was. If they can mock, then it would seem that they have feelings and some intelligence and further on some plan. I just find it strange that seemingly intelligent beings would just start to attack everything that moves. I hope we get to learn more of them.

[Nightwatcher]

Yeah, I wonder the reason was for Royce having the command. He shouldn't have had it under any real circumstances. Unless I have it wrong, I thought that members in the Night's Watch have their own ladder to climb, as their normal ties and obligations to the rest of Westeros society doesn't exist after they join. The fact that Royce being a knight, and a young one at that, does not strike me as an overwhelming reason to have special accomodations to automatically lead others.

I was under the impression, and certainly as we have seen with Jon and Sam, that any man may promote in the Night's Watch given the experience or resolve. Royce was there for less than six months, and therefore still green.

[Ealasaid]

I was under the impression, and certainly as we have seen with Jon and Sam, that any man may promote in the Night's Watch given the experience or resolve. Royce was there for less than six months, and therefore still green.

This was my concern, too. We know that from subsequent chapters that Jon Snow was forbidden to go on a rangering. But if we put it together with the next chapter we learn that the Others haven't been seen in 8000 years. So there may not have been the sense of danger when Waymar went out to track wildings.

The emphasis on swords is interesting. Royce has a freshly forged castle sword. The Other has a magic blade, "no human metal" had gone into it and it shimmered with a pale blue light. We learn immediately that no ordinary sword will defeat the crystal shard. We learn of AA Lighterbringer - a shimmering sword of heat will defeat these cold swords. SO perhaps the other was looking for Lightbringer.

The NighWatch is mentioned several times as is Mormont.

The sad thing: Royce goes into death with Robert's name on his lips, and Robert doesn't believe in the Others.

[Barba]

This never made sense to me. Why was he scared of the Others? Well, ultimately, I assume he was scared of getting killed by them. Why isn't he afraid of getting killed by Ned?

I think he was afraid that, after he died, he would rise again. That is what all the wildings are afraid more than death. :cool:

[Besselfunction]

Gared's flight to the South seemed odd to me from the beginning. Did he actually see how Waymar got slaughtered? Did the Others hunt him? If so, how could he survive? How did he cross the Wall? How did he get caught in the end? How close to Winterfell was he? It seems as if Bran, Jon and Ned just ride for half a day in Bran's first chapter.

In my opinion GRRM did implement Gared's execution in order to give the reader an impression of how things are connected. He did not really think it through, though.

[The Adequate Jon]

Bran's first chapter says that Gared was captured somewhere in the hills. On the map, there are hills to the northwest of Winterfell. Gared must have climbed the Gorge to get south of the Wall. Once he was captured, he was taken south to Winterfell. So, Bran's first chapter probably takes place 1 to 2 months after the prologue.

[Nan Greenseer]

Well, the first sentence has a weird similarity to the last sentence of TLotR. Not sure if concensus was ever reached as to whether this was intentional, but I suspect it was.

I'm new to the forum, so this may be ground that's been covered before, but can you tell me which quotes you're talking about? The beginning of the prologue is dialogue, but the beginning of Bran's POV is something I could imagine being similar, but I couldn't find a matching quote at the end of any of the three books of Lord of the Rings. Maybe it's the Hobbit or one of the movies?

[Ealasaid]

I'm new to the forum, so this may be ground that's been covered before, but can you tell me which quotes you're talking about? The beginning of the prologue is dialogue, but the beginning of Bran's POV is something I could imagine being similar, but I couldn't find a matching quote at the end of any of the three books of Lord of the Rings. Maybe it's the Hobbit or one of the movies?

Near the end of book six of the Return of the King, after the clutching farewell the last of the Fellowship are at the Grey Havens, the grey ship has sailed with Gandalf, Frodo and Bilbo, et al, and it is suggested that Sam, Merry and Pippin return home. Not at the very end of the book.

It roughly parallels "We should start back," as uttered by Gared.

Now I will have to go look it up too.

[Nan Greenseer]

1. What did you think of this chapter when you first read it? What do you think of it know?

I definitely agree with those that have said that they missed obvious clues in the Prologue the first time through. I think Martin makes the beginning of the series accessible, but still includes layers of plot that aren't obvious without the bulk of the later story.

2. Who was your favorite character? Least favorite? Did you even like any of them?

I didn't like Royce very much in the beginning, and really still don't. But I agree with Maester Joergensen that he is very much a grey Martin character. In fact, I think Martin uses the characters, which almost seem stereotypical on rereads, in the prologue to establish the typical attitudes of each character--the grizzled veteran of the wall, the commoner afraid of the lord, and the lord too much a "man" to be wary of the dark. Why he is giving orders is a good question.

Royce is a lord of summer in my mind--very sure of himself, never really listening. He's a foil for the introduction of the Starks in the next chapter. They are the "good" sort of lord. Martin makes a big deal about rulers listening to all points--when Catelyn is later guiding Robb when he first becomes King in the North, she notes that he listens to all his bannermen before he decides, and how like his father he is in that.

One thing that struck me on rereading is how comparatively old Royce is (18), compared to when Robb took control of the North (15ish); Jon becoming LC; Joffrey of the Kingdom (13). How old were Robert and Eddard? I would think under 20.

Thanks Ealasaid, I'll have to check it out...

[Barba]

Finally read it.

I didn't like Royce first two times, but now I looked at him from a different POV. My different point: He is lord of the summer, 18 year old, and in the watch for mere 6 months. He is lordling's 3rd son, so he (like Jon) has trouble on the wall in the beginning of his watch, because wall is filled with criminals that don't like lordlings or thair sons. In prologue he is described as all fancy and stuff, riding black destrier, using fresh forged sword, fancy gloves... from the description you get the feeling that Loras and Renly would like him.

Now what this kind of a guy can expect on the beginning of his watch - nothing nice. People don't respect him (It was even said that they were making fun of him during lunch). He is chosen to be ranger, and has his first command in ranging - can you blame him for wanting to show that he is worth something other than his clothes, sword, or horse. I say no.

Other than that - he is not stupid. he asked Will couple of times to say to him exacly what he saw, wich gives me an idea of somehing like detective shaped mind. Anyway, he was the oneto notice that wall is weeping, so it was not so cold for those wildings to freeze in sleep. And he even said: "Never belive anything you hear on a woman's tit (so cool). There are things even to be learned from the dead (so detective)."

Will and Gared wanted to return, but other than their feelings based on cold and envirement, therewas no reason for it, at least not a logical one - not one that westeros detective would lisen.

Other than that, right before Others show up, it becomes freezingly cold - so I think Others bring the cold.

[Morgana]

Someone may have already mentioned this, but Gared tells Royce that he thinks the cold killed the wildlings(which it did in a way since the cold and the Others arrive together). Royce then asks Will what the condition of the Wall had been during the week's watches. Will says it was weeping so it couldn't have been the cold that killed them. Here is my problem. They are at least eight or nine days away from the Wall so doesn't it stand to reason that the weather would be at least somewhat colder in that region and also they all mention the bitter wind that has started to blow. I suppose it doesn't really matter because the Others got them anyway, but it still kinda bothers me.

1. I can't really say that the prologue was incredible but it did make me anxious to read the next chapter.

2. Gared was the character that seemed to have the most sense while Royce was a royal, spoiled ass. Will was just there.

3. I think it was perfect to introduce the Others in the first and then leave you hanging because it increases the suspense. I know that all of us are ready for the next book.

4. Obviously, the cold and the fact that winter is nearing is a foreshadowing of the battle between the Others and mankind. I love the description of the Others in this chapter especially about the varying colors from green and brown to blue and white. Awesome!

I think he was afraid that, after he died, he would rise again. That is what all the wildings are afraid more than death. :cool:

Which makes sense because Gared had been on the Wall since he was ten, so he would know all of the wildling lore and had probably seen a thing or two in his time ranging in to the wilderness.

[A wilding]

I'm new to the forum, so this may be ground that's been covered before, but can you tell me which quotes you're talking about? The beginning of the prologue is dialogue, but the beginning of Bran's POV is something I could imagine being similar, but I couldn't find a matching quote at the end of any of the three books of Lord of the Rings. Maybe it's the Hobbit or one of the movies?

From memory so it may not be word perfect:

The last sentence of TLotR is "Well I'm back", he said.

The first sentence of AGoT is "We should start back", said Will.

[Nan Greenseer]

I think these descriptions were very carefully written. From the very beginning, there is a link between the Others and bones, milk, snow, shadows, grey-green trees (like the Weirwoods), the moon, water, and even facelessness. Somehow, they are all connected.

Great observation, Tarthking! Ever since I've read your comment, I've noticed these interconnected motifs all over the place. The facelessness I find especially interesting. It seems to be related to death--the Others are basically faceless (at least they're only a name for an idea in most parts of the kingdom), the Faceless men, Catelyn is basically faceless after she is killed (ripped her skin all up with her nails), the aspect of the seven that is faceless. Having a face seems to be a connection to the old world and gods and the children of the forest--the faces on the trees, the Isle of Faces (which is mentioned as one of the only places in the south that still has a weirwood grove).

From memory so it may not be word perfect:

The last sentence of TLotR is "Well I'm back", he said.

The first sentence of AGoT is "We should start back", said Will.

Royce would have done well to remember Gandalf's words a couple of paragraphs before that: "For it will be better to ride back three together than one alone."

3. What did you think about GRRM introducing the others in the first chapter of the series? Makes you think maybe they are the most important?

Battling the Others is definitely what seems to be what's coming. I don't think it's decisive that it's the Others who killed the wildings. I would guess that's the answer, but Martin never says for sure. One thing that I noted was that if it were the Others that killed the wildings, wouldn't it have been done at night? So why didn't the wilding bodies rise up that night instead of presumably laying around until Will spots them the next day, and then they leave when dark falls? It only took Royce a few moments to turn on Will. The other question is why there were no signs of struggle in the camp. I would think that the wildings would fight back, even if it were a useless battle. And the fights with the Others that we've seen elsewhere usually include quite a bit of slashing with swords. And you would think that the wildings would have already figured out that fire kills the Others.

What is the ultimate purpose of the Others? They seem to follow some leadership, or at least obey orders from some of their kind. If it's power over humans they want, why not take it earlier? This has been a long summer, but winter has come many times in the 8000 years since the Others were last seen. Do they just want to turn more beings into whatever they are? Where do they go during the day? Do they have towns and families? The idea of a dead wilding army commanded by the Others is very intriguing. Never thought of that before, but it's definitely plausible. I think we'll hear more of them speaking in books to come. I don't know whether the knight with black hands that helps Sam through the Wall is an Other, but he seems to be speaking, and not a necessarily bad character either. Maybe the Others have their own internal factions.

[Maester Yobjascz]

What is the ultimate purpose of the Others? ... Do they have towns and families? ... Maybe the Others have their own internal factions.

Great, and you thought it was hard keeping track of the lineages now. Wait 'till TWoW, when the Appendix includes several factions of Others... names, relationships, backstory...

Personally, I can't wait 'till we get the graphic novel about the young Other who, despite being tainted by Craster's blood, manages to survive the political infighting to become a great hero of the Others in the ancient war against the flame-bringers.

Should be as exciting as watching ice melt.

[DBaron]

I wouldn't mind participating in the reread. Mostly just to see if I can find something I may have missed, and to see other peoples viewpoints.

In regard to the questions:

1. Can't really remember what I thought of it 1st time I read it. I do remember thinking the others were pretty cool. Specially the fight with the Royce and the others. Rereading makes me frustrated because 4 books into the series and we still haven't gotten much more information on the others.

2. No favorite character really. Least would be Royce.

3. With the introduction of the others, I figured it would be a battle between good and evil with the others as evil.

4. I liked the quote about the blood burning in the snow.

One thing I learned was that the others armor gives them some sort of camoflauging ability. Guess I never paid that much attention to it before. That and the discussion on them being faceless.

Regarding Royce, I don't see it as a problem that he was given a command at such an early age. He is obviously well connected, and shows signs of being rather smart. Perhaps Morment felt that this assignment would be fairly easy (they just had to track the wildlings right?) and a good way to give him some experience. Plus given the Nightwatchs current state, they have to take risks on people they otherwise wouldn't take (Jon sending that singer off with Sam).

I dont see it in Gareds character to desert out of fear alone, so when we learn later on that he is mad with fear it doesn't seem to fit right. After all he has been on the watch quite a while, and probably seen all sorts of things. Don't some of the rangers in ACOK alude to the strange things they have seen beyond the wall? Anyway, I can see him leaving because he might feel he is in an impossible situation, but he doesn't seem the type to scare easily so it doesnt make sense to me why he would be so afraid.

I always wondered how the wildings were killed. They know about the others, and the fact that there wasn't any blood or any indication of a fight puzzles me.

One thing about this chapter, and the Bran chapter that bothers me is the weather and the seasons, especially in regards to the North. Everytime I think of the lands beyond the wall, I can't help but think it is always covered in snow five feet deep, though that is not always the case. IIRC, in the Bran chapter they say there is light snow, so I always think anything north of winterfell would have even more snow. Plus the cover of the book shows winterfell covered in snow as well, but the season is described as the end of summer. That always throws me for a loop.

[A wilding]

Royce would have done well to remember Gandalf's words a couple of paragraphs before that: "For it will be better to ride back three together than one alone."

Great catch! I like it.