AGOT Reread- Prologue and Jon

[Blue Roses]

I dont see it in Gareds character to desert out of fear alone, so when we learn later on that he is mad with fear it doesn't seem to fit right. After all he has been on the watch quite a while, and probably seen all sorts of things. Don't some of the rangers in ACOK alude to the strange things they have seen beyond the wall? Anyway, I can see him leaving because he might feel he is in an impossible situation, but he doesn't seem the type to scare easily so it doesnt make sense to me why he would be so afraid.

I have never understood why people find it so hard for Gared to desert. The Others are meant to be bogeymen, they are not meant to exist. Suddenly they pop up out of no where, turn Royce into a wight and possibly Will too and then more than likely chase Gared back down south towards the wall. Every single appearance of the Others in further books especially in ASOS brings utter fear to the nights watch. Some piss themselves and go to pieces and some rise to the occasion (including Royce). Gared is one of those who goes to pieces. In the first instance he probably just flees, then if he does recover his senses, he might think that if he goes back to Castle Black and babble about the Others he might be charged with Royce's murder or deserting his post since no one would probably believe him. However, by the time he has got to wall and gone over, he is a deserter anyway and needs to run to escape. As someone mentioned earlier, in the end, Gared is a plot device to get the Others plot line into the Stark storyline in the next chapter. IE the real issue facing the Stark children is the Others not the war for the throne.

[DBaron]

I have never understood why people find it so hard for Gared to desert. The Others are meant to be bogeymen, they are not meant to exist. Suddenly they pop up out of no where, turn Royce into a wight and possibly Will too and then more than likely chase Gared back down south towards the wall. Every single appearance of the Others in further books especially in ASOS brings utter fear to the nights watch. Some piss themselves and go to pieces and some rise to the occasion (including Royce). Gared is one of those who goes to pieces. In the first instance he probably just flees, then if he does recover his senses, he might think that if he goes back to Castle Black and babble about the Others he might be charged with Royce's murder or deserting his post since no one would probably believe him. However, by the time he has got to wall and gone over, he is a deserter anyway and needs to run to escape. As someone mentioned earlier, in the end, Gared is a plot device to get the Others plot line into the Stark storyline in the next chapter. IE the real issue facing the Stark children is the Others not the war for the throne.

I'm not saying I cant see Gared being afraid of the others. Pretty much everyone in the 7 kingdoms would be. I just can't see him being driven half mad by it. I can see him going back to the castle and having to try to explain what happened. I'm sure Morment would be pretty interested to know what had happened, and figure that whatever the hell happened out there would need investigating. Which means Gared has to go back out again since he is the only one to know where it happened. Or they could accuse him of deserting like you said. So hes stuck, he cant go back, he cant stay, so his only other option is to desert. Which is why I mentioned him being in an impossible situation. I realize it is a plot device, but it seems it would work better having Will desert than Gared. Probably I am making to much of it, just seems odd to me that Gared (a 40 year veteran btw) would be the one to go mad. Maybe he saw something else? Or maybe he did tell stark pretty much what happened, but Eddard didn't believe him, or wouldn't believe him and chalked it up to him being crazy.

[Lukas S]

I don't find it implausible that Gared would be driven insane by not only witnessing the Others and the death and subsequent reanimation of his two companions, but also by having to travel through the ghostwood back towards the Wall for several days, always fearing Others, wildlings and wights. Such an experience would make most people paranoid at least, and in some cases cause them to retreat completely from reality, as Gared seems to have done.

[Blue Roses]

I think Martin is trying to make the point that if a harden veteren like Gared can be reduced to a quivering wreck by the Others, what hope has the Sunset lands of being defended by a weaken Nights Watch, that is underfunded, under staffed and full of green boys and criminals. I think Martin chose Gared for that reason and not Will.

[Wired_Irony]

Jon (I)

Introduced: Rickon Stark (youngest child of Ned and Catelyn; fled south with Osha and Shaggydog after the burning of Winterfell);

Sansa Stark (eldest daughter of Ned and Catelyn, later wife of Tyrion; later incognito as Alayne Stone, the natural daughter of Lord Petyr Baelish);

Arya Stark (daughter of Ned and Catelyn, later a.k.a. Arry then Weasel then Nan then Salty then Cat of the Canals; now a novice of the Many-Faced God at the House of Black and White);

Princess Myrcella (daughter of Cersei and Jaime, later sent to Dorne as ward of Prince Doran Martell, betrothed to Prince Trystane Martell; wounded by Darkstar during Arianne's attempt to have her crowned Queen);

Prince Joffrey* (Joff, heir to the Iron Throne, eldest child of Cersei, later King);

Prince Tommen (youngest son of Cersei and Jaime, later succeeds his brother as King);

Benjen Stark (Ben, youngest brother of Brandon, Ned and Lyanna; First Ranger of the Night’s Watch, later lost beyond the Wall).

Legends: King Daeron I Targaryen (Targaryen King, the first of his name, called the Young Dragon or the Boy King, conquered Dorne while losing 10,000 men, lost another 50,000 trying to hold it, and died at the age of 18 failing to hold Dorne).

Jon Snow watches the procession in the Great Hall of Winterfell, given a place far from the honor table by Catelyn since he is a bastard. Jon was drinking heavily and feeding Ghost under the table, when his uncle Benjen approaches. Benjen tells Jon how they could use boys like him on the Wall. Jon states that he wants to join the Night’s Watch, despite Ben’s insistence that the Wall is a hard place for a boy, and how Jon has no idea what he must give up to become a member. They start to argue and Jon flees the Great Hall in tears. Outside the castle, he meets Tyrion Lannister who vaults down from a wall like an acrobat. The dwarf advises Jon about being a bastard, "Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength". As Tyrion leaves Jon and reenters the castle, his shadow is cast across the yard, and for a moment, Tyrion Lannister stood as tall as a king.

[Tarthking]

This was a nice introduction to Jon's theme, summarized nicely in this chapter with, "But what place could a bastard hope to earn?" Jon's story through ASOS, more than any other POV, explores the limitations of Westeros' class society. Through his eyes, we see some of the problems with Westeros class culture, and some alternative social structures, found in the Night's Watch and with the Wildlings. This is a nice introduction. Jon is considered inferior to his siblings simply because of his birth. This concept is anathema to most readers, and therefore makes Jon immediately sympathetic.

On rereading this chapter, it occurs to me that Benjen is trying to manipulate Jon into joining the Night's Watch, even though Jon had come up with the idea on his own. Benjen at first says that the Wall could use a man like Jon. Then, when Jon says he wants to join, Benjen backtracks, essentially saying, "You're not old enough yet." Jon's only fourteen - if you tell him he's not old enough to do something, he'll want to do it even more. Which is exactly what happens.

Jon's observations about the King's party are very perceptive, but Martin makes sure that he is not perfect, keeping him human. He's right about every single person he sees, except for Jaime, about whom he thinks, "This is what a king should look like."

All in all, this chapter is mostly a formal introduction to some of the major players in our cast.

[GoodQueenMaggie]

Sorry, I'm going to backtrack and comment on the prologue, since I'm just getting in to the re-read. But first, could someone tell me what IIRC stands for? Also, what's the difference between wights and the Others? Are the Others a seperate, self reproducing species and the wights are those they kill/convert, or is there another difference?

As far as the prologue goes, I didn't like it at all. I picked up the book because I'd heard it was good. I read the prologue and all I gathered was 1) lots of magic, 2) male centered, 3) all about fighting and killing. I didn't pick the book back up until I was faced with an international flight. Then, of course, all my assumptions were proved wrong and I really enjoyed the book. Still, I think the prologue gives a very unfavorable impression of the series, especially to a girl in high school!

After re-reading it, I still didn't connect Gared with the deserter... Oops! I never really liked Gared much, anyways... hard, crusty old men aren't my thing. I thought Will was the best character out of the bunch. I didn't like Waymar on the first read through, but when I read it again he seemed like a much better person, both intelligent and brave, even if he was a little snooty.

I picked up on this quote of Gared's when I re-read it. Remember how everyone praised Jon for attacking the Other with fire because people didn't remember that anymore? The men are debating building a fire, and Gared says this:

"There's some enemies a fire will keep away," Gared said. "Bears and direwolves and... and other things..."

So, did he know? Maybe some were still paying attention to old lore, which might explain why he deserted. If he knew a lot about the Others, he could have known enough about them to be terrified at what was coming to the North. Maybe.

On to the Jon chapter! I love Jon, I really do. Things that stood out to me about this chapter is how connected he already is to Ghost. Ghost, like Jon, is a small package (at this time, anyway!), but he's always standing up for himself, and he's unafraid.

I never noticed Tyrion was so acrobatic. I still can't picture him that way... I'll call it a fluke!

[DBaron]

1. Thoughts on the chapter? Impressions?

I liked this chapter, though it seems not alot happens. I like martins descriptions of the foods, and the feast. I never noticed the similarities between Ghost having to fight for food, and Jons being a bastard, having to fight for his place. I liked Jon, but he seems to be sort of childish in his actions. Also shows his inner conflicts with his being a bastard, as earlier he seemed to be ok with (Brans chapter). I never suspected that Benjen was manipulating Jon either, but now that someone mentioned it, I can sort of see it.

2. Foreshadowing, good quotes?

Jon names his direwolf Ghost, and states his reasons. Later some of the other direwolves names seem to have some sort of indication of their owners fate. So I'm not sure if the name indicates more than what Jon stated it was for. Also Benjen calls Jon his son. Since Jons parentage is always in question, I'm not sure if it means anything or not. It probably is a red herring though. Lastly the whole for a moment Tyrion stood as tall as a King quote, and Tyrion telling Jon to make his weakness his own, so that others cant use it against you.

3. Plot development:

The nightswatch is metioned again. I dont think a chapter has gone by with out it being mentioned. Benjen is introduced, one of the few chapters we have of him. Jon wants to join the nightswatch. Tyrion comes off as very impressive, though I dont understand the acrobatics, since he never seems to do it again.

@goodqueenmaggie

IIRC means "If I recall correctly.

[Tarthking]

I never noticed the similarities between Ghost having to fight for food, and Jons being a bastard, having to fight for his place.

Me neither. That's a good catch, and it's the first time we see how the wolves are a reflection of their owners.

[Nathan Stinson]

I firmly believe that gared DID tell lord Stark. He bypassed the Night's Watch because he felt it urgent that he needed help from the Warden of the north... FAST.

So he told Lord Stark about it.... what could sound more mad to a man like Eddard Stark than a half crazed looking man of the night's watch (running for your life and fewar will do it to you) telling you about the rise of something of something out of "one of old nan's tales, for which he seems to have disdain.

He probably had the same reaction that most of the rest of the King's Landing had (or rather, the King's Council), that of disbelief

or perhaps he thinks that the man was making an excuse for his madness and deserting

[GoodQueenMaggie]

@goodqueenmaggie

IIRC means "If I recall correctly.

Thanks!

[Errant Bard]

Prologue

Setting

- 9 days ride North, NorthWest then North of the wall

- Near a wildling encampment

Characters

- Waymar Royce, third son of Bronze Yohn.

- Gared, a 50 years odd ranger. was 40 years in the Night's Watch.

- Will, an ex-poacher, caught poaching on Mallister grounds, by Mallister freeriders.

- 6 Others. ("four... five... twin to the first")

Timeline milestones

- 6 months after Waymar Royce became a Night's Watch Brother. Can be matched with Sansa recollections of him later on.

- Gared has been in the watch since he was a boy, and has been a Brother for 40 years. Has seen two winters, the one before last happened when he was "half a boy" so something like 45/50 years ago.

- Waymar Royce is 18.

The Others

- They all look the same ("Twin to the first").

- They talk, and in a language unknown to Will.

- They seem to have human emotions: One plays with Waymar in single combat when they are 6, they laugh, they mock.

- The cold comes with them; when they arrive, Will comments that the temperature drops.

- They are tall, gaunt and seem hard as old bones. Their flesh is white ("pale as milk").

- They wear a colour-shifting, shimmering armor, like ice reflecting the surroundings. Sometime white, sometimes black, sometimes green like tree. Very "wild" colours.

- They wield pale translucid swords, with a blue glow, that can go through mail like it was silk. These swords don't like like metal, and one parry can shatter a good steel sword.

Miscellaneous

- House Royce is said to have too many heirs.

- During winter, 40 foot deep snow with freezing wind is to be expected.

- Waymar's sword only breaks after the Other got his blood.

- Waymar's corpse is already cold when he gets up as a blue eyed wight.

- The others can be felt by the rangers before the temperature even drops ("There's something wrong")

[Spring Bass]

Here is what I noticed the second time around.

Jon "decides" that Myrcella is 'insipid', and that Jaime Lannister 'is what a king should look like.' This may not look like much, but think about later on when he meets Sam, and is the first to realize that there may be something of value in Sam beneath his obesity and cowardice in terms of physical violence. It's actually quite some growth on his part.

I agree that Benjen may be slightly manipulating Jon into joining. Benjen certainly likes Jon (he ruffles Jon's hair, like how Jon ruffles Arya's hair).

[Donnachaidh]

Here is what I noticed the second time around.

Jon "decides" that Myrcella is 'insipid', and that Jaime Lannister 'is what a king should look like.'

After AFFC I realized how much value I placed in Jon's opinions. Jon from the beginning is described as an excellent judge of character. The descriptions he gives of Cersei and Joffrey in this chapter seem pretty observant. As his opinion of Theon. Interesting then he calls Myrcella insipid and stupid. Because he judged the other so well, it wasn't until we saw more of Myrcella in AFFC and it turned out Myrcella is actually quite intelligent, that I realized Jon was wrong in his judgment. It took 4 books for me to realize it though.

As for the comment on Jaime, well it's a remark about looks. Jaime does look like a king, but Jon makes no remarks in terms of character.

[Spring Bass]

After AFFC I realized how much value I placed in Jon's opinions. Jon from the beginning is described as an excellent judge of character. The descriptions he gives of Cersei and Joffrey in this chapter seem pretty observant. As his opinion of Theon. Interesting then he calls Myrcella insipid and stupid. Because he judged the other so well, it wasn't until we saw more of Myrcella in AFFC and it turned out Myrcella is actually quite intelligent, that I realized Jon was wrong in his judgment. It took 4 books for me to realize it though.

As for the comment on Jaime, well it's a remark about looks. Jaime does look like a king, but Jon makes no remarks in terms of character.

Then again, Myrcella was only 8 years old. It would be harder to judge the character of an 8-year-old. But still, I do think he shows some signs of growth in his judgement of character between this chapter and the Sam chapter.

[Barba]

Things I got from this chapter:

- We are introduced with Benjen and Tyrion, very cool guys

- On the beginning of chapter, there was mention that singer was singing, but couldn't be heard where jon sits. That singer might be Mance Rayder

- I liked quotes: "I'm not your son", "I'll never father a bastard", "some woman. Moat of them are"

- I think that Martin regreted making Tyrion flip-flop.

- Some events caught my mind: that Ghost fight (can this be somehow interpreted to jon. Mongrel bitch - who can she be refered to?), and the fact that Tyrion stood as tall as king(Maybe this also meant something. Or by "king" here was ment Robert)

[DBaron]

- I think that Martin regreted making Tyrion flip-flop.

By flip flop do you mean his acrobatics? Or something else?

[Barba]

By flip flop do you mean his acrobatics? Or something else?

Yes. I remember reading it somewhere.

[The Adequate Jon]

- On the beginning of chapter, there was mention that singer was singing, but couldn't be heard where jon sits. That singer might be Mance Rayder

- Some events caught my mind: that Ghost fight (can this be somehow interpreted to jon. Mongrel bitch - who can she be refered to?), and the fact that Tyrion stood as tall as king(Maybe this also meant something. Or by "king" here was ment Robert)

These things occurred to me too.

[Morgana]

I think the part about Tyrion landing on his hands and then flipping to his feet doesn't really take anything away from the fact that he is often in pain because he does tell Jon in another chapter that his legs are twisted and weak but his arms are strong but still short. Also Tyrion most often tries to do things for himself rather than ask for help. Being quite short myself (4'8") I can relate to his character.

As far as this chapter goes, I felt more connected to Jon's character than any character so far. His judgement is good for a 14 year old boy. We get to see the connection between Arya and Jon and also Benjen and Jon. The similarities to Jon and Ghost are becoming more obvious as well. Jon is an outcast so is his wolf.

I really think that the most important comment in this chapter is "When he opened the door, the light from within threw his shadow clear across the yard, and for just a moment Tyrion Lannister stood as tall as a king." To me, this is foreshadowing. I also think that GRRM has set up this friendship with Jon and Tyrion for a reason that will probably come out in the next book.