Is Varys worse than Littlefinger

[MyLittleFinger]

No, it would be extremely hard to be as bad as Littlefinger, the man commits various atrocities for himself, and himself only.

Varys claims to act out of principle, which isn't as bad, or could very be committing atrocities for the good of someone else, which still isn't as bad as what Petyr does.

So if LF claimed he did all of what he did out of principle or for the good of others it would make him better?

[Colonel Green]

I have never seen Varys as evil, I believe that he instead of Tyrion is the most morally neutral character in the series.

That depends on what you mean by 'evil'. Even if you allow that he has a noble goal, in pursuit of that goal he has instigated or plans to instigate wars that have ravaged the realm and have killed or will kill tens or perhaps hundreds of thousands of the people he's supposedly looking to protect. How is that anything other than evil?

Jeyne Poole says hi

Varys, as a member of the small council (not to mention a spymaster), would have known everything about the plan for Jeyne. Not to mention that he could have saved Jeyne from this fate if he had wanted to, but instead he allowed Ned to be defeated as part of his plan. And, as already mentioned, how many gang-rapes and murders have resulted from Varys' actions?

[Keyser94]

Well, the attack of the peasants against Tyrion, Sansa, Cersei, Joffrey and Tommen and company, if Varys had known about that, he didn't do anything about it, he let the horde attack them, causing riots in the capital.

The whole "Serve the Realm" is only a charade for Varys selfish goals, is gain power as much as Baelish, only that he is more subtle about it.

[Sullen]

So if LF claimed he did all of what he did out of principle or for the good of others it would make him better?

No, we know he's actually in for himself.

Varys's motivations are still unknown, he could genuinely be working in what he thinks is the best for the realm.

[Guess who's back]

No, we know he's actually in for himself.

That's what he wants you to think.

[shmewdog]

Varys's castration story is total bullshit IMO. He is telling the story to Tyrion, who was the acting Hand of the King, because Tyrion is facing an attack by Stannis and Tyrion doesn't know who to trust. By telling him this story, he "confides" in him, causing Tyrion to empathize with Varys, all while mentioning that he would never ever side with the evil, magic-using Stannis. It's all a ploy.

[mrlukeduke]

Better/worse is a matter of subjective opinion and personal morals. Let's be Machiavellian about this. They certainly play different games. I think of LF as a tactician, Varys as a strategist. Both are savant level geniuses at their craft (deception, trickery, subterfuge, spy networks, deceit, misinformation, etc).

I do think there's something "genuine" to Varys' tale about his torture and castration, and his hatred of magicks, just as I believe there is truth to LF's "love" for (creepy obsession with) Catelyn and now Sansa. The best lies contain some truths anyway. You have to sweeten the poison so it goes down easier.

Varys is apparently more cryptic, but that's partly due to the fact that we get slightly less insight into his machinations, thanks to Sansa's POVs in close proximity to Baelish, and various revelations about Petyr's role in the War of the Five Kings. Varys' involvement appears more secretive even when he reveals his motives to, for example, Kevan Lannister. Then again, he constantly refers to the 'Realm' and bringing about 'peace' but in a vague fashion. Counter to that again, we do know (thanks to Arya and then later chapters with Tyrion, Illyrio) about his cross-continent resources and political links; how people can then say his backstory is made up I have no idea – no offence, but this comes across as moronic. The devil is in the details. One can layer truths and lies and weave them into confusing patterns.

But he's still pulling strings everywhere. I personally believe he is even manipulating LF and is more aware of LF than LF is aware of Varys, but knows he cannot confront LF in tactical battles. I believe LF's only weakness is vanity, desire. Varys has no vanity, and his desires are slippery as a snake. Varys' potential weakness might be the sheer scale of his machinations, but frankly, he's so virtuosic, cryptic, and gaming at such a high level that's it's difficult to see exactly when his bluffs occur.

Here are two interesting quotes that I believe summarise the difference between the two:

"I hold the man’s balls in the palm of my hand ... or would, if he were a man, or had any balls. You see, if the pie is opened, the birds begin to sing, and Varys would not like that." – Littlefinger

"Littlefinger is the second most devious man in the Seven Kingdoms. Oh, I feed him choice whispers, sufficient so that he thinks I am his… just as I allow Cersei to believe I am hers." – Varys

[Batbob45]

Varys is responable for at least two deaths. While I find Varys to be untrustworthy, he the lesser of two evils.

Pycelle- I don't fault Varys for killing him since Pycelle was a scumbag

Keven-he got kill by Vary's Village of the damned kids spies. while he was a decent Lannister, he went along with Tywin's evil scheme to burn and torment Smallfolk in the Riverlands.

[Witch]

They are both extremely cunning people who are willing to do anything to achieve their goals. We could say we know Littlefinger and his self- serving intentions more, but I doubt Varys is all about the realm. For me, they are both the great villains of the series. No other person has caused more harm than them.

[Sir Bronn]

Well ,now i think Varys is better.We will find out about it in next books.What i don't like in LF.He is acting like he is a friend , etc to finaly stab someone in the back.Varys can be better or worse .Varys is calm ,maybe he is himself or he isn't and he can suddenly make something what has a big impact.

It is likely that Varys is more evil than LF ,but i hope that Varys is better

[Beanis Buttershield]

A lot of people think Littlefinger is the evil mastermind of the entire story, but i am almost convinced Varys could be worse.

What do you think?

Littlefinger is Walter White, he wants to build his empire and be the best at the game of thrones.. however just like WW in Breaking Bad he is "a time bomb waiting to explode" and I can't wait!

Varys has a personal grudge against those who practice magic.. so his is more about his own inner peace(?) and some revenge

[Fae Boleyn]

I don't think we know enough of Varys' true motivations - sorry Blackfyre crew but your theory is still just that, so while that might be his motive it might not - to be sure.

At this point Littlefinger is worse - literally all the mess he causes is motivated by ambition and a huge chip on his shoulder (and, I suppose, a broken heart, but his love is a deeply unhealthy sort). Also Varys seems to value order - chaos is a tool to change who runs the order, but order is part of the endgame - while Littlefinger wants as much chaos as can be, it's useful.

That said, I too like the idea that Littlefinger will, inadvertently or not, cause some good before the end.

[Annara Snow]

Yeah, LF hurts some of the 'protagonists' of the story, and does some pretty god awful things on a personal level, but seeing as his whole agenda consists of trying to one-up the established structure and prove himself better than the nobility, I think he is better for all of westeros in the long term. The current system is beyond messed up, and he at least has a chance of upsetting that stagnancy a little.

Varys just wants more of the same old monarchy, albeit maybe of a different colour. He's deluded himself with the whole notion of "for the realm".

And LF wants more of the same old monarchy and the same old beyond messed up system, only with himself as the one holding most power. How is that good for Westeros?

Although LF's goals seem a lot more petty (He lost Cat to a noble so he has to go get really powerful and become super 'cool' to show those darned wealthy nobles), they do more good "for the realm" than any of Varys murdering and scheming.

When and how did LF's machinations do anything good for the realm?! He practically engineered the War of the Five Kings.

[midi]

I think Dany is going to wind up being more like Walt than LF. LF was never sympathetic.

I disagree. I think his background with Brandon and Catelyn has twisted his world view a lot. He was humiliated by both of these "to be" great lords and ladies which caused his desire to change the world into a more fair place... primarily for him of course.

regardless... there's plenty to sympathize about with Littlefinger... He has always been the outsider, "the almost Braavosi".

People are even saying The Hound is a good guy here, so why not cut good ol' LF some slack?

[Queen Sansa Stark]

No. Don't get me wrong Varys is a pretty terrible person, but he isn't like Littlefinger. The fundamental difference between these two is that Varys is an architect whereas Littlefinger is the opposite. Littlefinger kind of reminds me of The Joker from the Batman Franchise. In the sense of both of them want to create chaos.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

I disagree. I think his background with Brandon and Catelyn has twisted his world view a lot. He was humiliated by both of these "to be" great lords and ladies which caused his desire to change the world into a more fair place... primarily for him of course.

regardless... there's plenty to sympathize about with Littlefinger... He has always been the outsider, "the almost Braavosi".

People are even saying The Hound is a good guy here, so why not cut good ol' LF some slack?

The past of Littlefinger does not make him sympathetic. IMO The fact that those salty nice guy tears were the "excuse" of him turning villian makes him worse.

[Annara Snow]

I disagree. I think his background with Brandon and Catelyn has twisted his world view a lot. He was humiliated by both of these "to be" great lords and ladies which caused his desire to change the world into a more fair place... primarily for him of course.

regardless... there's plenty to sympathize about with Littlefinger... He has always been the outsider, "the almost Braavosi".

People are even saying The Hound is a good guy here, so why not cut good ol' LF some slack?

For what? He grew up as "brother" to Cat, Lysa and Edmure in Riverrun and got top education and all other privileges other than getting to marry Cat. The girl he wanted didn't want him back anyway (even though he may be lying to himself that she did and was just 'dutiful'). He challenged the girl's fiancee to a duel for her hand, against her own wishes, and got beaten in said duel. What's unfair about that? Was it unfair that Hoster sent him away - i.e. back home - after he got Lysa pregnant? Considering the fact that he didn't want Lysa anyway, and that he had embarrassed everyone with the ill-advised duel for the hand of Lysa's elder sister, not so much. It's not like he would have been in Cat's vicinity, anyway, so I doubt that remaining in Riverrun would have made him happy anyway. The only thing that I feel sorry for him for is that Lysa date-raped him, but he doesn't even realize that and thinks he slept with Cat, so it's not like this is what's driving his revenge.

I'm sure no teenager ever got to have an unrequited crush or was beaten up in a fight by an older boy he stupidly challenged himself. Boo hoo, tragic backstory, totally justifies the murders and destruction. :rolleyes:

Comparing LF's backstory to Sandor's childhood of constant fear and abuse by his terrible elder brother who burned half his face and almost killed him when he was 6, and who presumably killed their sister and eventually their father, after which Sandor got away for good and started working for the Lannisters, participating in war and killing his first man at 12, growing up as a terribly disfigured boy with no family that his masters and everyone only saw as a useful killing machine - that's absurd.

[midi]

Comparing LF's backstory to Sandor's childhood of constant fear and abuse by his terrible elder brother who burned half his face and almost killed him when he was 6, and who presumably killed their sister and eventually their father, after which Sandor got away for good and started working for the Lannisters, participating in war and killing his first man at 12, growing up as a terribly disfigured boy with no family that his masters and everyone only saw as a useful killing machine - that's absurd.

Oh please Sandor always had a choice. He could've gone to the Wall or become a hedge knight like Dunk or just run away in general. He never did, instead he became a Lannister goon. He had a choice and he made his. Then he killed his first man at 12. I find it incredible that you think that somehow makes him less bad. HE KILLED HIS FIRST MAN AT FRIGGING 12 WITHOUT HAVING HAD TO DO SO!!!!! It's not something to sympathize about. that makes him a scumbag no matter how you look at it. He killed countless of women, children and men since.

IMO he is far worse than LF, he does these things in person and watches the people die. LF just sort of plays the game from the shadows and the violence he causes is much more indirect.

Here's a comparison to slaughtering pigs; If you have to do it and then cut off a steak, you prolly don't wanna eat it. If it's done by a butcher far from you, put in a plastic box and you buy it at the store, it's pretty tasty. Even though the pig is just as dead.

LF is the one buying the steak from the store, The Hound is the one butchering it and cutting off the steak.

By the way I never said LF was a good guy unlike you seem to imply about Sandor. I just said that you can sympathize with him, though he is clearly a villain.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

The idea of comparing Littlefinger with Sandor Clegane is laughable. Sandor at least has the decency of feeling guilt over what he has done whereas Littlefinger has no conscience. Tell me again which one of these two is worse?

[Ingelheim]

I find LT to be far more interesting than Varys, but no, he is not better than him, they're just different.