Vampires---can they ever be "good"

[oba]

Alucard is a vampire from the anime Hellsing. He is this guy, who is this girl's bitch. He tries way too hard to be creepy and badass. A point in his favor is that he is voiced by Crispin Freeman in the English dub. (I usually dislike dubs but Freeman is excellent...Albedo!)

Hmm. I went to college (Williams) with Crispin. We were in an a cappella group together. I knew he was doing a lot of anime, but I haven't really kept track. He's a real good guy and I'm sure his work is very, very good.

[PhoenixFlame]

Hmm. I went to college (Williams) with Crispin. We were in an a cappella group together. I knew he was doing a lot of anime, but I haven't really kept track. He's a real good guy and I'm sure his work is very, very good.

O_O

Wow, that's cool! Yes, Crispin is one of the best VA's in the business. Albedo, Maar, Amon, Tsume...lots and lots. He has such a lovely voice.

[williamjm]

Also, it turns out vampires can be good, but only if they're psychic, elven, pirate vampires.

I'm amused by the cover featuring Orlando Bloom photoshopped to look like a vampire.

Also sentences such as

The young woman smiled as she walked down the hill and into the woods of the damned.

Make me think of some of the past Goodking-mocking threads.

[Devil Hanzo]

Elven, vampire, psychic, sounds like something peirs anthony would write about.

[PhoenixFlame]

My vampiric elf in Elder Scrolls: Oblivion was badass except for looking like a 60 year old woman. But other than that, elven vampires generally suck.

Make me think of some of the past Goodking-mocking threads.

Those were no woods. They were damnation manifest.

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

Elven, vampire, psychic, sounds like something peirs anthony would write about.

best book piers anthony ever wrote wasn't even fantasy (should have given him a clue)

(Tatham Mound btw)

[PhoenixFlame]

I've never read that one.

I liked the first books in the Xanth series, then it went to repetitive unfunny hell. I liked 'Nightmare' the best probably.

Didn't he write a book called Pornocopia?

[Baeraad]

Hrm. "Witch" doesn't mean "Satan worshipper," no... May I also point out that "Satan worshipper" doesn't mean "evil"?

Hmm, vampires... I'll assume that they need to kill people to survive. And that we can consider them to be "human" for the sake of the argument (they walk, they talk, they feel, they've got two arms and two legs... sounds like a human to me). In that case, I would ask two questions.

1) Does the vampire comprehend, really comprehend just how much pain and harm it inflicts just by surviving?

2) If it does, why does it accept that, instead of killing itself?

I tend to define evil as "harmful stupidity." Doing harm because you intended to do good but you weren't smart enough to predict the result of your actions is evil. So is doing harm because you're too thick to really understand that you're doing it. If a vampire kills because it has no empathy with its prey and regards it just as a blood bag on legs, it's evil.

So what if the vampire is very conscious of the fact that it's committing murder, that it's snuffing out a unique human identity every time it feeds, but it has decided to do so anyway? Well, then it's not evil, as such, as I define the word (though by the same argument, angry humans are quite free to stake the vampire in pre-emptive self-defence, without being evil because of it, as long as they're aware that that, too, is murder).

But I have a hard time imagining a mind that could be fully aware that its existance damaged the world badly and continously, and still want to survive. It would take a quite extraordinary will to live to offset that awareness, or possibly some kind of balancing value ("Yes, I kill, but I alone remember the days of ancient Babylon, and if I die, that world is lost forever").

Tricky question.

[Enguerrand]

This made me think of the Salubri in World of Darkness. A small clan that consists of buddhist like scholar-healer vampires whose aim is to reach golconda. The world is a evil place for all creatures, so they strive to allivieate the suffering of the soul, and they are persecuted by all other vampires.

[Galactus]

Hrm. "Witch" doesn't mean "Satan worshipper," no... May I also point out that "Satan worshipper" doesn't mean "evil"?

Actually, legally a witch is a person who has made a pact with Satan, at least since the 17th century.

Before that, witchcraft wasn't illegal, only maleficium, that is, harming someone by magic, was.

[oba]

Hrm. "Witch" doesn't mean "Satan worshipper," no... May I also point out that "Satan worshipper" doesn't mean "evil"?

Hmm, vampires... I'll assume that they need to kill people to survive. And that we can consider them to be "human" for the sake of the argument (they walk, they talk, they feel, they've got two arms and two legs... sounds like a human to me). In that case, I would ask two questions.

1) Does the vampire comprehend, really comprehend just how much pain and harm it inflicts just by surviving?

2) If it does, why does it accept that, instead of killing itself?

I know this might tend to put me into the Lestat/fanby category, but, this is the part where folks lose me.

You seem to be stating that suicide is the "logical" option in this case.

I disagree. I would argue that self-preservation is what comes naturally and that the choice to not obey that imperative would be a supreme triumph.

So what if the vampire is very conscious of the fact that it's committing murder, that it's snuffing out a unique human identity every time it feeds, but it has decided to do so anyway? Well, then it's not evil, as such, as I define the word (though by the same argument, angry humans are quite free to stake the vampire in pre-emptive self-defence, without being evil because of it, as long as they're aware that that, too, is murder).

This presupposes, however, that a vampire recognizes feeding as murder. As has already been stated, this goes down the road where I'm looking at every Big Mac as a cow with a personality and conscience.

But I have a hard time imagining a mind that could be fully aware that its existance damaged the world badly and continously, and still want to survive. It would take a quite extraordinary will to live to offset that awareness, or possibly some kind of balancing value ("Yes, I kill, but I alone remember the days of ancient Babylon, and if I die, that world is lost forever").

Fair enough.

However, as humans we seem to operate with the beneficial assumption that we are the only ones who remember ancient Babylon.

[Sandello]

My fistful of opinions - 1) Prince Vlad Dracula isn't bad vampire. He (as a vampire) is a justiful and merciless badass, like Stannis.

2. Youngsters from green lands! Read 'I am the Legend' by Richard Matheson and only then talk about good and bad vampires.

3. Poor, poor Vamphiries. Bad Lumley!

4. Annce Rice& the author of Anita Blake - sucks.

[Baeraad]

You seem to be stating that suicide is the "logical" option in this case.

I disagree. I would argue that self-preservation is what comes naturally and that the choice to not obey that imperative would be a supreme triumph.

Well, I don't disagree with you, actually. A vampire is in a pretty bad situation with no good choices. To avoid being evil, given that, is pretty damn hard.

This presupposes, however, that a vampire recognizes feeding as murder. As has already been stated, this goes down the road where I'm looking at every Big Mac as a cow with a personality and conscience.

Who knows? Maybe we should.

But I did state that "I assume that a vampire can be considered human." If they're not human, then I suppose it becomes a question of whether killing another sentient being is murder, even if it's of another species. Which opens the tricky question of what sentience is and... uh... is a major headache that I don't feel up to the challenge of at the moment... ;