Lady Stoneheart

[Ser Pounce FTW]

There might be reason to hope if Walder Frey/any named Freys/Blackfish/Dondarin/BWB were slated to be in Season 5. But, as far as I know, they aren't. That means no riverlands plotline.

While it's theoretically possible they would bring LSH back in Season 6, considering the rest of the cuts they've made, and how long it would have been, it seems very, very unlikely.

It seems more likely that she's cut and that they will simply cut or change how the BWB hostage situation plays out with regard to Jamie and Brienne. And since we don't know what LSH does, if anything after that situation, it may have been a fairly easy decision to cut her, since we already know from Graves that they thought it was a better end for Cat to just die.

This. I pretty much expected LS was out when she didn't show up at the end of season 3 (the best spot for her introduction) but I always assumed the Freys/Riverlands plot would be included and Blackfish would take over since he's roaming around (perhaps with Gendry?) but with no Freys or Blackfish sightings, it does seem as though we won't get any of it.

[jaimereborn]

urgh. if the entire riverlands plot is cut from the show i'm going to be pretty annoyed. it's one of the most fascinating parts of AFFC & ADWD and stoneheart herself is such a powerful character for me

[Cas Stark]

This. I pretty much expected LS was out when she didn't show up at the end of season 3 (the best spot for her introduction) but I always assumed the Freys/Riverlands plot would be included and Blackfish would take over since he's roaming around (perhaps with Gendry?) but with no Freys or Blackfish sightings, it does seem as though we won't get any of it.

I think we're not getting it in Season 5, whether we're not getting it at ALL, hard to say. I've assumed GRRM kept the Blackfish alive for a reason, given how few Starks and Tullys are still alive, and made him a badass for a reason, and put a giant wolfpack in the riverlands for a reason, and gave Dany a vision of fighting the Others in the riverlands for a reason. But, who knows.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

I think we're not getting it in Season 5, whether we're not getting it at ALL, hard to say. I've assumed GRRM kept the Blackfish alive for a reason, given how few Starks and Tullys are still alive, and made him a badass for a reason, and put a giant wolfpack in the riverlands for a reason, and gave Dany a vision of fighting the Others in the riverlands for a reason. But, who knows.

True but Martin's reason for Blackfish being alive and D&D's reason don't necessarily coincide.

ETA:

Although it is very possible that Martin had Blackfish join up withe the Riverlands plotline at a later point which might be the point that D&D pick it up again. Who knows. :dunno:

[AdmiralKyrd]

But that's the point I was making. There was absolutely no mention of the Freys last season even though that was the time when it made sense to discuss how they were killed mysteriously. Not mentioning them or LS for an entire season only to start now, or even later in season 6 is completely unrealistic unless they will be killed by someone other than LS. There's no logical way to introduce UnCat now given how the show is set up unless they are planning a flashback to when she is fished out of the river and that is probably not going to happen. Other than that, any other sort of "introduction" to LS would seem too much like it was coming "from nowhere" and even a flashback would feel forced at this point since there haven't been any on the show so far and Cersei's is literally going back decades to when she's a little girl. This had to be set up earlier even if it wouldn't be acted on until later. Unfortunately that doesn't make for smart TV but can work in a book with various POVs. I think D&D recognized this which is why she's been MIA. Expecting someone to mention her in episode 2 & 3 then reveal her to someone in episode 6 would be very hard to explain to the average viewer, especially given the fact that Cat is DEAD as far as everyone knows. And not Jon dead. Ned dead. She can't just be back, even under another name, a season and a half later. Hell, it would have been just as confusing to the average reader if it had been handled that way in the books.

That's not the point I was making. The point I was making was there was no reason to just discuss the Freys croaking when there was nothing going on with the post-Red Wedding fallout, except if you want to do LSH there, but she has no real payoff until she meets Brienne.They might as well just do it concurrently with the other Frey storylines, when the Freys become important to the storyline again in S5. It fits better there, than doing it in S5 by itself. It would stick out like an oddly placed sorethumb. There is no problem with bringing LSH in from nowhere with a few lines from Thoros.

All signs point to no LSh. The only positive sign we had was Lena Headey trolling us with that picture of stones in a heart shape.

Except this pic that was posted on facebook from someone involved with the production that was removed at a later date: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/121208-season-5-casting-news-and-speculation-v-7-show-spoilers-book-spoilers-past-op/page-3#entry6500799

But a crop of the nooses was saved: http://oi62.tinypic.com/b87hba.jpg

And its still setup. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lw5CJ0VX4U4#t=1m20s

And they spent a lot of time with Beric and Thoros in S2.

She's coming, possibly in 5.05, which will air on Mother's Day.

[biosnake20]

Is there any actual proof that the guy who posted that pic worked on GoT? I thought we all came to a conclusion that the pic was fake.

[jaimereborn]

That's not the point I was making. The point I was making was there was no reason to just discuss the Freys croaking when there was nothing going on with the post-Red Wedding fallout, except if you want to do LSH there, but she has no real payoff until she meets Brienne.They might as well just do it concurrently with the other Frey storylines, when the Freys become important to the storyline again in S5. It fits better there, than doing it in S5 by itself. It would stick out like an oddly placed sorethumb. There is no problem with bringing LSH in from nowhere with a few lines from Thoros.

Except this pic that was posted on facebook from someone involved with the production that was removed at a later date: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/121208-season-5-casting-news-and-speculation-v-7-show-spoilers-book-spoilers-past-op/page-3#entry6500799

But a crop of the nooses was saved: http://oi62.tinypic.com/b87hba.jpg

And its still setup. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lw5CJ0VX4U4#t=1m20s

And they spent a lot of time with Beric and Thoros in S2.

She's coming, possibly in 5.05, which will air on Mother's Day.

yeah i was pretty sure this was all dismissed a while ago as a fake pic

[James Rivers]

The person claimed the picture had been taken in NI in late November, but that pic looks like summer or fall with leaves on trees and people wearing shorts. Unfortunately. lol

[Ser Pounce FTW]

I just read this post from another site (WotW) and thought it was an interesting take that I hadn't considered before. What do you guys think? Could one word really make that big a difference?

Hodor's Bastard
January 21, 2015 at 11:05 pm

Speaking of Jaime’s “redemption arc” (with which I don’t agree but for the sake of discussion I’ll go with it), I wanted to point out how that infamous change, as uttered by Roose, predicted that LS on GoT had been discarded by D&D early on (when S3 was being scripted).

— As stated, “The Lannisters send their regards” created a TV moment that pitted family vs family to the viewing audience, leading to wider more-daunting effects of war.

— BUT “Jaime Lannister sends his regards” was an isolated phrase meant only for Robb and especially Cat. Roose hated what Robb had done (Jeyne/Talisa, Karstark, etc) but he hated more that Robb listened to Cat. So by saying “Jaime…” he was actually speaking to Cat as he gutted Robb. He wanted to hurt Cat the most by his words before she died. Everything Cat had done in Robb’s trust, especially freeing Jaime, now came back to haunt her final moments. It didn’t matter if Tywin gave the order, this was Roose at his most evil.

— Furthermore, as she died in the show, Cat no longer could focus her chaotic anger on a single entity. Roose’s words in the show (“The Lannisters…”) spoke of war between families not of vows being broken. If she lived (or returned), Cat had no reason to seek out Jaime or kill Freys for that matter, as in the book. Even the threat of killing Walder’s young wife and his “I’ll find another” response completely discarded Cat’s fury, made the murder of Walder’s wife almost insignificant, and further distanced her killers from any macabre consequence. At least, in the book, Cat’s killing of an innocent child had a dark, foreboding (and consequential) effect to it. But in the show, all we had was her scream at the end…no mental breakdown and discombobulation associated with her final moments that intentionally fostered (and festered into) a dark, disturbed energy. (…although MF’s final scream was indeed haunting….)

— Hence, no LS is needed in the show. The focus on Jaime is lifted and Jaime can go about his business in Dorne or whatever, to pursue whatever mass appeal “redemption arc” is awaiting him. GRRM intentionally kept Jaime in the riverlands vicinity in AFfC/ADwD because he was ultimately being targeted by LS, but as many have stated before, with no LS he can go elsewhere, which may be an ultimate Sullied spoiler regarding the pending status of Brienne/LS or it may simply be conservation of plot.

[AdmiralKyrd]

The simpler explanation is "Jaime" was cut from the line because 10%+ of the viewers would walk away thinking Jaime Lannister was behind the Red Wedding.

[Trevelyan]

I just read this post from another site (WotW) and thought it was an interesting take that I hadn't considered before. What do you guys think? Could one word really make that big a difference?

Hodor's Bastard

January 21, 2015 at 11:05 pm

Speaking of Jaime’s “redemption arc” (with which I don’t agree but for the sake of discussion I’ll go with it), I wanted to point out how that infamous change, as uttered by Roose, predicted that LS on GoT had been discarded by D&D early on (when S3 was being scripted).

— As stated, “The Lannisters send their regards” created a TV moment that pitted family vs family to the viewing audience, leading to wider more-daunting effects of war.

— BUT “Jaime Lannister sends his regards” was an isolated phrase meant only for Robb and especially Cat. Roose hated what Robb had done (Jeyne/Talisa, Karstark, etc) but he hated more that Robb listened to Cat. So by saying “Jaime…” he was actually speaking to Cat as he gutted Robb. He wanted to hurt Cat the most by his words before she died. Everything Cat had done in Robb’s trust, especially freeing Jaime, now came back to haunt her final moments. It didn’t matter if Tywin gave the order, this was Roose at his most evil.

— Furthermore, as she died in the show, Cat no longer could focus her chaotic anger on a single entity. Roose’s words in the show (“The Lannisters…”) spoke of war between families not of vows being broken. If she lived (or returned), Cat had no reason to seek out Jaime or kill Freys for that matter, as in the book. Even the threat of killing Walder’s young wife and his “I’ll find another” response completely discarded Cat’s fury, made the murder of Walder’s wife almost insignificant, and further distanced her killers from any macabre consequence. At least, in the book, Cat’s killing of an innocent child had a dark, foreboding (and consequential) effect to it. But in the show, all we had was her scream at the end…no mental breakdown and discombobulation associated with her final moments that intentionally fostered (and festered into) a dark, disturbed energy. (…although MF’s final scream was indeed haunting….)

— Hence, no LS is needed in the show. The focus on Jaime is lifted and Jaime can go about his business in Dorne or whatever, to pursue whatever mass appeal “redemption arc” is awaiting him. GRRM intentionally kept Jaime in the riverlands vicinity in AFfC/ADwD because he was ultimately being targeted by LS, but as many have stated before, with no LS he can go elsewhere, which may be an ultimate Sullied spoiler regarding the pending status of Brienne/LS or it may simply be conservation of plot.

Oh man, the fact that I agree with this so much actually makes me sad and kinda angry at Benioff & Weiss.

I admit I have been having similar thoughts ever since Roose Bolton said "The Lannisters send their regards" and Catelyn didn't go insane after killing an innocent, instead she went catatonic and that's not what Stoneheart is.

Stoneheart is rage, madness and vengeance and it all started during Cat's last moments at the Red Wedding, not after she was resurrected. Her catatonic state in the show was sad, hopeless, but also kinda peaceful, and it felt so ... final.

I still want to see Stoneheart on the show, but reading this confirms my fears, that I probably never will.

[alcasinoroyale]

If LS doesn't appear, Brienne should just find Blackfish and go on a massive killing spree of Freys and Boltons.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

The simpler explanation is "Jaime" was cut from the line because 10%+ of the viewers would walk away thinking Jaime Lannister was behind the Red Wedding.

Which is what LS and the BwB think?

If LS doesn't appear, Brienne should just find Blackfish and go on a massive killing spree of Freys and Boltons.

That's not the arc Brienne is on but who knows what the Blackfish will do.

[alcasinoroyale]

That's not the arc Brienne is on but who knows what the Blackfish will do.

I know that but if the show already mentioned that Walder Frey is the Lord of Riverrun, Brienne's arc is just to continue to find Sansa and eventually meet the BwB. And I assuming that if LS doesn't appear, Blackfish will take her place. Also I agree that because of that mention and Roose saying the "Lannisters" send their regards, Jaime going to the Riverlands at this point wouldn't make much sense. Random: It would be funny if Myranda revealed to Theon in Season 5 that her real name is Jeyne Poole.

[olenna123]

I must be the only person on this board who was happy LS never showed up on the show. Her appearance in the book feels like a jump the shark moment for me. Not to mention the fact that she hasn't done anything of importance that justifies her return from the dead.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

I must be the only person on this board who was happy LS never showed up on the show. Her appearance in the book feels like a jump the shark moment for me. Not to mention the fact that she hasn't done anything of importance that justifies her return from the dead.

Many people on the forum are not fans of LS.

[Hiram McDrogon]

Many people on the forum are not fans of LS.

It's like the "Boy, I hope this leads somewhere" problems of Feast and Dance began even with the epilogue of Storm: "OK, I'm keeping myself open-minded on these Ironborn characters; I hope they mean something in the end"; ditto for Lady Stoneheart, for Dorne, for Quentyn (oh well), for fAegon, for Brienne's journeys ... man, that's a lot of pages that I'm still reserving judgement on. Oh yeah, and those White Walkers disappeared too.

How have you people who have been book fans from the beginning been able to stand the relative lack of development since Storm?!

On LSH's appearance in the show: plot wise, it's still possible she could come in, and will be for a long while yet, pretty much until the moment the Freys get their comeuppance or Brienne decides to kill her in defence of Jaime or whatever else happens - but as others above have implied, it'd be pretty shoddy writing if she shows up this late without any foreshadowing at all. No rumours of dead Freys, no rumours of a darker BwB, no wolf dreams of a floating body, no nothing. I'm not ruling her out just yet, but if she does appear, I'll be very surprised if it works in a storytelling sense.

[FreeParking]

I just read this post from another site (WotW) and thought it was an interesting take that I hadn't considered before. What do you guys think? Could one word really make that big a difference?

Hodor's Bastard

January 21, 2015 at 11:05 pm

Speaking of Jaime’s “redemption arc” (with which I don’t agree but for the sake of discussion I’ll go with it), I wanted to point out how that infamous change, as uttered by Roose, predicted that LS on GoT had been discarded by D&D early on (when S3 was being scripted).

— As stated, “The Lannisters send their regards” created a TV moment that pitted family vs family to the viewing audience, leading to wider more-daunting effects of war.

— BUT “Jaime Lannister sends his regards” was an isolated phrase meant only for Robb and especially Cat. Roose hated what Robb had done (Jeyne/Talisa, Karstark, etc) but he hated more that Robb listened to Cat. So by saying “Jaime…” he was actually speaking to Cat as he gutted Robb. He wanted to hurt Cat the most by his words before she died. Everything Cat had done in Robb’s trust, especially freeing Jaime, now came back to haunt her final moments. It didn’t matter if Tywin gave the order, this was Roose at his most evil.

— Furthermore, as she died in the show, Cat no longer could focus her chaotic anger on a single entity. Roose’s words in the show (“The Lannisters…”) spoke of war between families not of vows being broken. If she lived (or returned), Cat had no reason to seek out Jaime or kill Freys for that matter, as in the book. Even the threat of killing Walder’s young wife and his “I’ll find another” response completely discarded Cat’s fury, made the murder of Walder’s wife almost insignificant, and further distanced her killers from any macabre consequence. At least, in the book, Cat’s killing of an innocent child had a dark, foreboding (and consequential) effect to it. But in the show, all we had was her scream at the end…no mental breakdown and discombobulation associated with her final moments that intentionally fostered (and festered into) a dark, disturbed energy. (…although MF’s final scream was indeed haunting….)

— Hence, no LS is needed in the show. The focus on Jaime is lifted and Jaime can go about his business in Dorne or whatever, to pursue whatever mass appeal “redemption arc” is awaiting him. GRRM intentionally kept Jaime in the riverlands vicinity in AFfC/ADwD because he was ultimately being targeted by LS, but as many have stated before, with no LS he can go elsewhere, which may be an ultimate Sullied spoiler regarding the pending status of Brienne/LS or it may simply be conservation of plot.

Disagree. LS was hanging Freys and started hanging Podrick for fighting with the Lannisters, so her focus is hardly only on Jaime. Her focus is on Freys, Lannisters, and anyone who is an enemy of the Starks and Tullys really. Roose said "Jaime Lannister sends his regards," because it is a little in-joke that only Roose gets.

Jaime: Send Robb Stark my regards.

Roose: That I shall. (I think I will do it right before I kill him.)

I don't recall any of the posters claims of Roose being mad at Robb because he listened to Cat in either the show or the books.

Who honestly believes that LS wouldn't be hanging Freys and Lannisters without that phrase? Such BS. Cat killing Walder's wife or his grandson makes no difference because he didn't care about either. "I'll find another." Or "He was never much use." Same thing. The poster's thoughts read like someone who is upset that the RW wasn't exactly the same as the books and is using this to rationalize why we haven't seen LS.

They changed it into "The Lannisters" because we are not inside Jaime's head to confirm that he had nothing to do with it. While we don't know why they changed Cat's reaction after she killed her hostage, I have always thought that it would have a very high chance of looking ridiculous if they kept it the same as the books.

[sati]

If LS doesn't appear, Brienne should just find Blackfish and go on a massive killing spree of Freys and Boltons.

What is the reasoning for bringing Blackfish back but not Catelyn? I would honestly stop watching the show if they did that.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

What is the reasoning for bringing Blackfish back but not Catelyn?

Because the Blackfish was last seen still alive and Cat was last seen dead? And her body has not been fished out of the river or anything else required to have us expect to see her again? That's truly the only reasoning for doing that but of course, there's little indication that they will do that since neither the Freys nor Edmure nor the Blackfish have been slated to return. Rather it really seems as though the Riverlands plots will be very drastically reduced.