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Lady Stoneheart


Reginald blackfield

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Because the Blackfish was last seen still alive and Cat was last seen dead? And her body has not been fished out of the river or anything else required to have us expect to see her again? That's truly the only reasoning for doing that but of course, there's little indication that they will do that since neither the Freys nor Edmure nor the Blackfish have been slated to return. Rather it really seems as though the Riverlands plots will be very drastically reduced.

So what? This is a fantasy show. Why not just follow the books? It would take them 3 minutes tops for the epilogue moment.

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So what? This is a fantasy show. Why not just follow the books? It would take them 3 minutes tops for the epilogue moment.

Yup. At the end of Season 3 or early in Season 4. And yes, it's a fantasy show based on a fantasy book but it still has to adhere to logic which is why Martin resurrected her in a timely fashion in the books. They did not follow the books. Expecting them to show a dead woman walking around now when months have passed since her death is not reasonable even in a world with dead things walking around because its already been established that there's a short amount of time when they "come back". White walkers have been shown to come back almost immediately. Same thing for Thoros. He's brought back immediately. Cat wasn't shown being brought back after she was killed. It is highly unlikely that she will just appear now and then have someone say "Oh yeah. About that. Well you see, Beric found her after Nymeria dropped her off and, well, she don't talk much but she remembers." It wouldn't be good story telling.

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How many times was Catelyn mentioned in Season 4?


Episode 1: "They say they cut her throat to the bone and threw her body in the river" - Sansa to Tyrion


"She wanted me executed, but I admired her" - Tyrion to Sansa


Episode 4: "I'll find her for Lady Catelyn ... and for you" - Brienne to Jaime


Episode 5: "When you told me to write a letter to Cat telling her it was the lannisters..." - Lysa to Petyr


"Your mother never loved him. Never. Cat always went straight for the sweetest thing, the most obvious thing, your handsome, arrogant, cruel Uncle Brandon..." - Lysa to Sansa


Episode 7: "I loved your mother more than you'll ever know...You're more beautiful than she ever was" - Petyr to Sansa


"I have only loved one woman, one, my entire life...your sister" - Petyr to Lysa


Episode 10: "I swore to your mother, I would take you home to her" - Brienne to Arya



So while she was mentioned several times, was there really build up for Lady Stoneheart?


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Depends. How many times was Robb mentioned?







Yup. At the end of Season 3 or early in Season 4. And yes, it's a fantasy show based on a fantasy book but it still has to adhere to logic which is why Martin resurrected her in a timely fashion in the books. They did not follow the books. Expecting them to show a dead woman walking around now when months have passed since her death is not reasonable even in a world with dead things walking around because its already been established that there's a short amount of time when they "come back". White walkers have been shown to come back almost immediately. Same thing for Thoros. He's brought back immediately. Cat wasn't shown being brought back after she was killed. It is highly unlikely that she will just appear now and then have someone say "Oh yeah. About that. Well you see, Beric found her after Nymeria dropped her off and, well, she don't talk much but she remembers." It wouldn't be good story telling.




Oh, come on. I'm far from saying that she's in, but the only thing that'd be needed would be a 'previously on' with Arya asking Beric 'can you bring back dead people?' It's not like the books showed the moment of the resurrection, either. Nor is the Nymeria part necessary.


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Expecting them to show a dead woman walking around now when months have passed since her death is not reasonable even in a world with dead things walking around because its already been established that there's a short amount of time when they "come back".

Has it been many months though? Didn't the Purple Wedding take place like ... maybe a week or two after the Red Wedding? Tyrion's trial and Tywin's death followed shortly thereafter, which means that the entirety of Season 4 takes place within a very short period of time, maybe one month, two at the most.

They don't need to show Catelyn's resurrection, in my opinion. All they need is Thoros' dialogue from the books, explaining how Beric gave her the kiss of life. Sansa already mentioned that her mother's body was dumped in the river, so they don't need to show or explain in detail how the Brotherhood found her.

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Depends. How many times was Robb mentioned?

Oh, come on. I'm far from saying that she's in, but the only thing that'd be needed would be a 'previously on' with Arya asking Beric 'can you bring back dead people?' It's not like the books showed the moment of the resurrection, either. Nor is the Nymeria part necessary.

No, the books didn't show the moment of resurrection but it did set it up by having Nymeria find the body so of course Nymeria was necessary. Her body wasn't going to just float by Beric who just happens to take her out and just happens to give her the gift. If the book hadn't shown her finding Cat's body even readers would have been puzzled when she pulled down her hood. Also, having her revealed and her presence explained in the same book that she was killed in made it very easy for readers to believe and accept that she could logically be back. In fact, the only reason you think it's easy to introduce her is because she was introduced in such a logical manner in the books. It feels natural because it was done very naturally in the books. It has to be told in a logical way on the show too and the point is not showing the moment she's brought back to life although TV is about showing not telling. The point is setting up her reappearance. And no, it's not enough to show Arya asking that at this stage of the series. It would have been enough in season 3 or early season 4 but not now. And again, there doesn't seem to be a Frey story line for season 5 given that none of the actors are slated for scenes so the earliest any of this could potentially happen is season 6 and no, it won't be enough to show "previously on" with Arya from season 2. It is too far removed from her death and not logical for her to have been gone for so long from the show and then back with no word of her in between. That's the problem with her reappearing in season 6.

ETA: In any case, it's clear that some readers still expect her to arrive on the show any minute now and feel it will be great when she does no matter when. We'll see in a few weeks what the show does regarding Lady Stoneheart. Until then, we can just read the interviews, reflect on how D&D have told their story so far and wait.

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No, the books didn't show the moment of resurrection but it did set it up by having Nymeria find the body so of course Nymeria was necessary. Her body wasn't going to just float by Beric who just happens to take her out and just happens to give her the gift. If the book hadn't shown her finding Cat's body even readers would have been puzzled when she pulled down her hood. Also, having her revealed and her presence explained in the same book that she was killed in made it very easy for readers to believe and accept that she could logically be back. In fact, the only reason you think it's easy to introduce her is because she was introduced in such a logical manner in the books. It feels natural because it was done very naturally in the books. It has to be told in a logical way on the show too and the point is not showing the moment she's brought back to life although TV is about showing not telling. The point is setting up her reappearance. And no, it's not enough to show Arya asking that at this stage of the series. It would have been enough in season 3 or early season 4 but not now. And again, there doesn't seem to be a Frey story line for season 5 given that none of the actors are slated for scenes so the earliest any of this could potentially happen is season 6 and no, it won't be enough to show "previously on" with Arya from season 2. It is too far removed from her death and not logical for her to have been gone for so long from the show and then back with no word of her in between. That's the problem with her reappearing in season 6.

ETA: In any case, it's clear that some readers still expect her to arrive on the show any minute now and feel it will be great when she does. We'll see in a few weeks what the show does regarding Lady Stoneheart. Until then, we can just read the interviews, reflect on how D&D have told their story so far and wait.

This is the biggest flaw and narrative failure so far. No retribution for Red Wedding whatsoever. They had this huge thing happen in s3 and it's almost like nothing happened, there is no revenge. Bringing LS remedies that but if they chose not to, this is just horrible writing.

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This is the biggest flaw and narrative failure so far. No retribution for Red Wedding whatsoever. They had this huge thing happen in s3 and it's almost like nothing happened, there is no revenge. Bringing LS remedies that but if they chose not to, this is just horrible writing.

I would argue that this should have happened in season 4 not season 5 and definitely not season 6.

ETA:

I also think there will be some retribution for the Red Wedding but I think it will be different in each medium. I expect Walder will bear the brunt of that on the show and be the one that is killed while I expect him to suffer in the books by watching his family be murdered, one by and one, and him being the only remaining Frey and possibly have lost all his wealth and lands. But I don't think there will random hangings on the show and I doubt there will be Frey pie.

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No, the books didn't show the moment of resurrection but it did set it up by having Nymeria find the body so of course Nymeria was necessary. Her body wasn't going to just float by Beric who just happens to take her out and just happens to give her the gift. If the book hadn't shown her finding Cat's body even readers would have been puzzled when she pulled down her hood. Also, having her revealed and her presence explained in the same book that she was killed in made it very easy for readers to believe and accept that she could logically be back. In fact, the only reason you think it's easy to introduce her is because she was introduced in such a logical manner in the books. It feels natural because it was done very naturally in the books. It has to be told in a logical way on the show too and the point is not showing the moment she's brought back to life although TV is about showing not telling. The point is setting up her reappearance. And no, it's not enough to show Arya asking that at this stage of the series. It would have been enough in season 3 or early season 4 but not now. And again, there doesn't seem to be a Frey story line for season 5 given that none of the actors are slated for scenes so the earliest any of this could potentially happen is season 6 and no, it won't be enough to show "previously on" with Arya from season 2. It is too far removed from her death and not logical for her to have been gone for so long from the show and then back with no word of her in between. That's the problem with her reappearing in season 6.

Along the same lines, Beric wasn't setup "properly" in the show - we didn't hear rumors of the Lightning Lord dying at several different places before he was resurrected. D&D just did the fight and resurrection, then mentioned Thoros had brought him back many times.

I think you're trying to apply too much of a reader's mindset to storytelling and how it must progress in the show, when we have evidence that D&D don't necessarily agree with using that kind of setup for television.

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This is the biggest flaw and narrative failure so far. No retribution for Red Wedding whatsoever. They had this huge thing happen in s3 and it's almost like nothing happened, there is no revenge. Bringing LS remedies that but if they chose not to, this is just horrible writing.

David Bradley said he was going to return at some point, so there will be retribution somewhere down the road.

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David Bradley said that D and D told him he will be back at some point for something amounting to "divine retribution". My guess is this will correspond with events in TWOW and thus will be in s6.



So, yes, the show hasn't included LSH and the BWB's piecemeal killing of House Frey but they will include the expected grand finale of House Frey in some form or another.


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^Exactly. So a few less important Freys aside, the show Frey slaughter may well come out the same year as it does in the books. (Or is 2016 too optimistic for TWOW at this point).



Since Walder is now a widower again in the show, methinks the RW 2.0 will be at his wedding rather than Daven Lannister of whoever's. (That is if that's what goes down, of course).


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If the book hadn't shown her finding Cat's body even readers would have been puzzled when she pulled down her hood. [...]

Also, having her revealed and her presence explained in the same book that she was killed in made it very easy for readers to believe and accept that she could logically be back. [...]

ETA: In any case, it's clear that some readers still expect her to arrive on the show any minute now and feel it will be great when she does no matter when. We'll see in a few weeks what the show does regarding Lady Stoneheart. Until then, we can just read the interviews, reflect on how D&D have told their story so far and wait.

On the first point, I guarantee you that I wouldn't be puzzled. It's a book. It's a plot. Plot stuff happens. Coincidences happen. (Also, if somebody asks 'hey, can you resurrect others?' and somebody replies 'I can't do it to your father', having it done in the due course to the asker's mother fits.)

On the second point, no, there's no actual logic involved. What is involved is magic, and that's subject to plot, not logic. It has no connection to reality.

On the third point, book readers aren't important.

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(Or 2016 too optimistic for TWOW at this point).

I'm still hopeful!

Since Walder is now a widower again in the show, methinks the RW 2.0 will be at his wedding rather than Daven Lannister of whoever's. (That is if that's what goes down, of course).

I don't know if this is what goes down but I know many are hopeful.

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I always thought that Jaime would wriggle his way out of whatever's waiting for him with Stoneheart by offering to help her get to Walder Frey. He's a relative by marriage, after all, and could probably help them get into the Twins.



I think the show has an opportunity to bring LSH in during the back half of this season as part of Brienne's plot-- Brienne and Pod will probably go to the Vale, have a near miss with Sansa, and then go dejectedly into the Riverlands to see if they can pick up Arya's trail. They'll wind up with the BWB-- who are, after all, some of the last people to see both Arya and the Hound. We'll get the LSH reveal, and then in S6 they'll meet up with Jaime somehow. Either he gets sent on his mission after returning from Dorne, or goes looking for Brienne on his own initiative.



Or they could do something entirely different. Who knows. I doubt they'd leave the big BWB setup to hang indefinitely.


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This is the biggest flaw and narrative failure so far. No retribution for Red Wedding whatsoever. They had this huge thing happen in s3 and it's almost like nothing happened, there is no revenge. Bringing LS remedies that but if they chose not to, this is just horrible writing.

You are wrong. Just because there hasn't been any retribution so far doesn't mean there never will be. You are acting like an entitled child I'm afraid (no offense). We can very well see revenge on the freys sometime in s5 and s6, and it will be fine.

In fact, if stoneheart shows up in s5 there is nothing wrong with that. The only season she'd be missing out on is s4 to give her story breathing room.

So;

Season 1: Cat's alive

Season 2: Cat's alive

Season 3: Cat's alive, dies at the end

Season 4: [gap with no Cat, have viewers get used to her loss]

Season 5: Cat returns

Season 6: Cat kills Walder(?) and other Freys

Season 7: Brienne or Jaime kills Cat

I see nothing wrong with that at all and I think it's good writing.

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