Ex Machina - Alex Garland's directorial debut

[Raja]

That soundtrack is pretty excellent. I'm definitely going to get it off itunes when I get the chance.

I'll agree about Caleb though, I think some of the stuff with him does not work too well. Maybe if they had spent a bit more time parsing out the caleb/ Ava relationship, I might have bought it, but I felt like it was rushed ( which is unsurprising given the relatively short running time of the film).

That's a nit-pick though, I really enjoyed the film. I've been a fan of Gleeson since About Time, him and Issac work really well together. Though every-time Issac came on screen, all I could think of was trying to grow a beard like him.

Also, I was 100% certain that Kyoko was an Android. I thought the film said as much during the first dinner scene between Issac and Gleeson? It was definitely meant to come off as a reveal at the end and that part naturally ended up feeling a bit flat for me.

One thing I didn't quite understand were the clips of Nathan moving the previous iterations of Ava around? I'm not sure what that was meant to show.

[Red Tiger]

I loved this film, will watch it again in the weekend.

[Veltigar]

What a brilliant movie :) I have kind of given my thoughts about in the watched thread and I see you al mentioned most of the stuff I focussed on as well, so I'm just going to repeat myself and say that it was brilliant. Loved every minute of it.

[Veltigar]

Perhaps some questions I still have are worth discussing :)

Question:

What do you think Nathan was planning to do with Ava if he hadn't been stabbed?

My take on it:

Personally, I think Nathan would have switched her off, even though she was a perfect AI according to his little test with Caleb. I do think he would have felt bad about it though. The heavy drinking isn't just a cute little reference to Prometheus (Prometheus liver was eaten every night by eagles and Nathan self-inflicts punishment on his liver by drinking heavily), I also think it was a genuine coping mechanism.

I strongly disagree with the poster who described Nathan as a sadistic psychopath. Nathan's psychological issues imo, were kind of like those of Wehrmacht soldiers (yes, I'm breaking Godwin's law here) who had to carry out the Holocaust by bullets. So many soldiers were crippled that the Nazi's eventually developed the gaschambers to carry out their evil endlösung.

You could argue then why does he switch her off if it bothers him that much. I think the key lies in the fact that she hates him. I think he genuinely wants to be loved by his creations. He certainly wont unleash a being into this world that hates him. However, the catch is that he couldn't conduct his little test with Caleb if Ava loved her creator. Thus, I think his plan all along was to subjugate her to Caleb's test and if she were to succeed, switch her off and then he would have recreated her completely. Only this time, he would take care to bring her up lovingly, which would then mean that she loves him. And if she loved him, he could share her with the world and genuinely be the first human who made such a great advance in science.

Question:

What do you think he would have done with Caleb?

My take on it

I'm of the opinion that he would have just let Caleb leave and be done with it. Nathan had nothing to fear from Caleb at all. He was Caleb's superior in every way (even physical). There is nothing Caleb could have done to him. In fact, I was kind of baffled when I was listening to a talk on Ex Machina on the popcorn network were they were talking about the possibility of Nathan murdering Caleb. The thought honestly hadn't even crossed my mind.

Question:

This movie is really filled to the brim with references to all sort of things, I think it would be fun to compile a list :)

1) The names are pretty obvious. All Biblical with Ava referencing Eve (the first woman), Nathan a prophet in King David's court and Caleb being one of the spies Moses sent into Canaan. I had to look up Nathan and Caleb though, I'm not that good with Bible knowledge.
2) Nathan is totally a cross-over between Dr. Moreau and Colonel Kurtz from Apocalyps Now.

3) The Oppenheimer quote as well as Nathan's line while drunk were both taken from the Bhagavad Gita

4) At the beginning of the film, when Nathan gets his keycard there is a brief reference to HAL 9000 when the light turns red

5) The questions Ava asks Caleb during one of their early sessions seem to be referencing Blade Runner's Voight-Kampff test.

6) There was that Captain Kirk reference, which was apperently referencing a Star Trek episode with quite a similar plot

7) There is the whole Prometheus theme the movie has going for it, with Nathan punishing his liver by drinking heavily

8) The name of Nathan's company, blue book is a reference to Wittgenstein's blue books, a bundling of coursenotes from lectures Wittgenstein gave in 1933-1934.

9) The obviously acknowledged references to Jackson Pollock and his automated art.

Anything I missed? :)

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

I'm still sorta wondering why the Pilot picked up Ava at the end. Were his instruction just " pick up anybody who shows up" ?

[Veltigar]

I'm still sorta wondering why the Pilot picked up Ava at the end. Were his instruction just " pick up anybody who shows up" ?

Nathan was a supersecretive billionaire, the pilot was probably payed incredibly well not to ask any questions. Plus, even if he was suspicious, Ava could have easily convinced him of the change in directives.

[Biter]

Question:

This movie is really filled to the brim with references to all sort of things, I think it would be fun to compile a list :)

8) The name of Nathan's company, blue book is a reference to Wittgenstein's blue books, a bundling of coursenotes from lectures Wittgenstein gave in 1933-1934.

Anything I missed? :)

Did you notice the painting of a woman wearing a white dress in Nathan's room? IMDb trivia says the woman is Margaret Stonborough-Wittgenstein, Ludwig's sister.

[Kindly Old Man]

Perhaps some questions I still have are worth discussing :)

Personally, I think Nathan would have switched her off, even though she was a perfect AI according to his little test with Caleb. I do think he would have felt bad about it though. The heavy drinking isn't just a cute little reference to Prometheus (Prometheus liver was eaten every night by eagles and Nathan self-inflicts punishment on his liver by drinking heavily), I also think it was a genuine coping mechanism.

I strongly disagree with the poster who described Nathan as a sadistic psychopath. Nathan's psychological issues imo, were kind of like those of Wehrmacht soldiers (yes, I'm breaking Godwin's law here) who had to carry out the Holocaust by bullets. So many soldiers were crippled that the Nazi's eventually developed the gaschambers to carry out their evil endlösung.

You could argue then why does he switch her off if it bothers him that much. I think the key lies in the fact that she hates him. I think he genuinely wants to be loved by his creations. He certainly wont unleash a being into this world that hates him. However, the catch is that he couldn't conduct his little test with Caleb if Ava loved her creator. Thus, I think his plan all along was to subjugate her to Caleb's test and if she were to succeed, switch her off and then he would have recreated her completely. Only this time, he would take care to bring her up lovingly, which would then mean that she loves him. And if she loved him, he could share her with the world and genuinely be the first human who made such a great advance in science.

This is obviously subjective, you're not the first person to disagree with me there, so I'll just say that I don't think remorse necessarily precludes sociopathy or sadism. Serial killers and perpetrators of domestic abuse often show remorse and may even turn to substance abuse to alleviate it. Many of them also have a desire to be loved. I don't think that negates whatever caused them to commit those acts in the first place, and repeatedly.

Someone earlier mentioned Nathan reciting some 'mantra' to get through his experiments and talking about how he hated himself - I've only seen the movie once and didn't remember that. Did you catch that? I looked for it in the script but couldn't find it. If it was in there it's at least more direct evidence of him feeling like what he is doing is a necessary evil.

[Glaurung]

Well, Caleb is the most generic nerd protagonist ever. And that's what Generic Nerd Protagonists do in films for the Female Love Interest.

Also: Ava really isn't dangerous. I think that's just people who've seen too much scifi projecting. She's no ability that couldn't be replicated by a motivated human. She's not some Skynet-type AI plugged into a body that could reach out and cause trouble like Ultron. She's super-weak physically and we don't even know if she can charge outside the compound.

When Nathan said that the AI would take over he didn't mean Ava personally, he meant someday. It's a bit like saying that a single plane is super dangerous because one day we'll inevitably build a B52 and nuke someone

I think she is dangerous. She was built by a psychopath and displayed psychopathic behavior. She manipulated a good person to help her escape, then left him to die. She showed absolutely zero empathy, thinking of only herself and not caring if she killed others to get what she wanted. Who is to say she wouldn't do the same in the real world? She definitely isn't human-like, as her behavior is reflective of undesirable human traits.

[Veltigar]

Did you notice the painting of a woman wearing a white dress in Nathan's room? IMDb trivia says the woman is Margaret Stonborough-Wittgenstein, Ludwig's sister.

Oh, yeah that was

Klint's wedding portrait of her right? After I finished the film I refreshed my knowledge of Wittgenstein's life (I was only really acquainted with some of his work thanks to a philosophy course I once took) and I did see that portrait on the page. I thought it looked kind of familiar,I guess I now know where I saw it before :)

I think she is dangerous. She was built by a psychopath and displayed psychopathic behavior. She manipulated a good person to help her escape, then left him to die. She showed absolutely zero empathy, thinking of only herself and not caring if she killed others to get what she wanted. Who is to say she wouldn't do the same in the real world? She definitely isn't human-like, as her behavior is reflective of undesirable human traits.

I don't think we know that she left him to die no? The only thing we can know for sure is that she looked at him before she left, which was a quite human thing to do. I don't think Caleb was planning on letting Nathan die and he was the one tp reverse the codes, so I believe that that door will eventually reopen or perhaps someone will come look for him. So, I don't think we can say anything for sure either way. The scene was of course set up to be ambiguous so we are free to interpret it :)

Someone earlier mentioned Nathan reciting some 'mantra' to get through his experiments and talking about how he hated himself - I've only seen the movie once and didn't remember that. Did you catch that? I looked for it in the script but couldn't find it. If it was in there it's at least more direct evidence of him feeling like what he is doing is a necessary evil.

I think you are referring to the second quote from the Bhagavad Gita in the film: "

In sleep, in confusion, in the depths of shame, The good deeds a man has done before, defend him"

This is obviously subjective, you're not the first person to disagree with me there, so I'll just say that I don't think remorse necessarily precludes sociopathy or sadism. Serial killers and perpetrators of domestic abuse often show remorse and may even turn to substance abuse to alleviate it. Many of them also have a desire to be loved. I don't think that negates whatever caused them to commit those acts in the first place, and repeatedly.

I don't know whether I agree with your view on serial killers. Perhaps you're right in the exact clinical terms (I'm not a psychologist after all), but I do think that the way a serial killer is normally understood by the average layman is as lacking emathy and really without remorse. A psychopath doesn't feel remorse for his victims because of his unability to empathise. Nathan on the other hand clearly empathised with his victims I'd say. He knew that he was being a monster and that's why turned to drink

[Which Tyler]

She definitely isn't human-like, as her behavior is reflective of undesirable human traits.

Errr.... what?

[Zoë Sumra]

Errr.... what?

While I entirely agree with you that this is a strange comment - humans display undesirable human traits! - I think those traits define her as a human shaped sentient creature, not as human.

Unless the earlier poster's point was that Ava couldn't genuinely express positive human traits?

[Ken Stone]

I think she is dangerous. She was built by a psychopath and displayed psychopathic behavior. She manipulated a good person to help her escape, then left him to die. She showed absolutely zero empathy, thinking of only herself and not caring if she killed others to get what she wanted. Who is to say she wouldn't do the same in the real world? She definitely isn't human-like, as her behavior is reflective of undesirable human traits.

Let's imagine that you were held captive by someone who was running experiments and then planning to kill you afterwards. I think that escape by any means necessary would be your MO, right? Most humans will gladly let a stranger die to escape certain death.

[andrew_]

Just saw this movie and was truly satisfied, really great performances with a great screenplay.

Also that dance scene....so so good! It's already on my cult classic dance scenes in movies list(behind Pulp Fiction and RocknRolla).

[PetyrPunkinhead]

That connection to the myth of Prometheus via the "liver abuse" is excellent. I hadn't thought of that at all, but it seems obvious now, and very appropriate.

[Isis]

Interesting piece about how the film treats WOC

[red snow]

Interesting piece about how the film treats WOC

It's definitely interesting and also something I hadn't considered. What made the film creepy for me was the treatment of the female robots in general - it certainly never crossed my mind others might think it less horrific depending on their race. It's disturbing how that could be the case. There were white people bodies in those cupboards of horror too and I got the impression Ava's fate would likewise have the same awful fate if she failed the humanity test. But there might be something to the fact we didn't see the white robot's being sexually abused.

I never considered whether that was part of the creator's/inventor's "justification" for abusing them. Although now I think of it that might be the case as I don't think he assaulted any of them before that?

[Relic]

dont get the love for this movie. totally predictable and totally shit.

[Ramsay B.]

dont get the love for this movie. totally predictable and totally shit.

You just went all Jack Bauer on us.

No appreciation for Oscar Isaac's performance?

[Isis]

I just found out interesting that people have a great deal to say about this film, including people on this board, yet I'd not seen anyone mention race until I read that article. Perspective is a fascinating thing, huh.