AGOT Reread- Catelyn

[Wired_Irony]

And here is the weeks we do Catelyn's chapters:

Sept. 25- Bran(I) Catelyn(I) Daenerys(I)

Oct. 2- Eddard(I) Jon(I) Catelyn(II)

Oct. 23- Tyrion(II) Catelyn(III) Sansa(I)

Oct. 30- Eddard(III) Bran(III) Catelyn(IV)

Nov. 27- Catelyn(V) Sansa(II) Eddard(VII)

Dec. 11- Catelyn(VI) Eddard(IX) Daenerys(IV)

Dec. 25- Catelyn(VII) Jon(V) Tyrion(VI)

Jan. 29- Catelyn(VIII) Tyrion(VII) Sansa(V)

Feb. 5- Eddard(XV) Catelyn(IX) Jon(VIII)

Feb. 12- Daenerys(VII) Tyrion(VIII) Catelyn(X)

Mar. 5- Jon(IX) Catelyn(XI) Daenerys(X)

And we may begin with here first chapter:

Catelyn (I)

Introduced: Lady Catelyn Stark**(of House Tully, wife of Eddard, mother of Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran and Rickon; sister of Lysa and Edmure; murdered during the Red Wedding, later restored to life by Thoros of Myr and referred to as Lady Stoneheart, and also Mother Mercy, The Silent Sister, and The Hangwoman, now the nominal leader of the fragmented Brotherhood without Banners).

First Mentioned: Lord Jon Arryn* (former Lord of the Eyrie, Hand of the King, Warden of the East, murdered by his wife and Littlefinger; former Keeper of the Gates of the Moon while his father was Lord of the Eyrie);

King Aerys II Targaryen* (last of the Targaryen Kings, the Mad King, killed by Ser Jaime Lannister; son of Jaehaerys II, grandson of Aegon V; father of Rhaegar, Viserys and Daenerys).

Legends: Brandon the Builder (ancient King of Winter/King in the North, constructed Winterfell and some say the Wall with the help of the children of the forest).

Catelyn finds her husband atoning in the godswood of Winterfell after executing Gared. She considers the stories told her about the Starks of Winterfell: the blood of the First Men flows in the veins of the Starks, and they worship the nameless gods they shared with the vanished Children of the Forest; the Children carved the faces of the old gods in weirwood trees, also called Heart Trees, in the dawn centuries before the coming of the First Men across the narrow sea. All the weirwoods in the south were cut down a thousand years ago except on the Isle of Faces where the green men watch over them. She also notes the greatsword Ice was forged in ancient Valyria, before the Doom had come to the old Freehold. Catelyn brings Ned the news of Lord Jon Arryn’s death, and Ned remembers how when King Aerys Targaryen demanded his and his fellow ward Robert Baratheon’s head, Jon Arryn had raised his banners in revolt, beginning the war. Catelyn also informs Ned that the King is on his way to Winterfell.

[Barba]

Introduced: Lady Catelyn Stark**(of House Tully, wife of Eddard, mother of Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran and Rickon; sister of Lysa and Edmure; murdered during the Red Wedding, later restored to life by Thoros of Myr and referred to as Lady Stoneheart, and also Mother Mercy, The Silent Sister, and The Hangwoman, now the nominal leader of the fragmented Brotherhood without Banners).

I still have some exams before I join the discussion (hopefully tomorrow), but Cat was restored to life by Lord Beric

[Maester Joergensen]

I still have some exams before I join the discussion (hopefully tomorrow), but Cat was restored to life by Lord Beric

This is true. When Thoros refuse to revive Catelys body fund in the river, Beric tries to give her the kiss of live. The spark of live apparantly passes from Beric to Catelyn, and Beric presumably dies. Shouldn´t be to quick to pronounce this man dead. The fact that their former leader passed the spark on to Catelyn together with her intimidating appearence and the fact thast she is a witness who can point out the ones she think responsible for the red wedding, are some of the things that makes her the new leader of one faction of the former BwB.

[malek]

Qestion is did Beric knew that with his kiss of life to Catelyn life would pass from him to her? Did He sacrifise himself, or something went wrong

[Ealasaid]

I realized on this reread why I did not like Catelyn from the start. She is so negative about her home. In the 15 years that she has lived in Winterfell she cannot overlook it's grimness and strangeness.

This chapter also demonstrated how imaginative Ned is. He tells Catelyn the Others are as dead as the Childfren - both gone 8000 years. Ned said that no living man had seen an Other in 8000 year. The Irony: Ned killed the man who had seen Others just days before.

It is also ironic how happy Ned is that Robert is coming. We know Robert brings his doom.

[Jaxom 1974]

Ironically, I started a re-read of my own of AGOT just yesterday. Since I just realized you guys were starting another re-read, here's some of my Catelyn observations:

She's still one of the, if not the, best written characters in the whole of the series. The observation above about Cat's never seeming to warm (no pun intended) to Winterfell is interesting, even though you can see that she's come to love Ned despite their rocky start. Her observations of the situations she encounters are whip smart, but her heart ultimately rules her decision making, not her head.

I can't say I always agree with her, but I love her character (at least until she becomes Un-Cat).

[Nightwatcher]

Well in this chapter we are also introduced more to religious practices. Catelyn still regards the northmen as strange.

The bit about Ned saying Rickon needing to overcome his fears is somewhat odd. The boy is only 3 years old. Bran, being seven, was given permission to observe an execution. Given that happened in the previous chapter, Rickon does not have much time before he starts to shed his innocence. As we have seen, he does just that much sooner than expected. Besides, I'm sure many of the people of Winterfell took the pups as some kind of sign, whether good or bad.

Reading of the news of Jon's death while knowing the truth of the reasons changed much of my thoughts about it. I bet when all of us read the chapter we sympathized with Catelyn's sister, even if we didn't know a thing about her.

I also noticed that Catelyn doesn't seem to have a perosonal problem with the Lannisters at this point. She's more concerned with the supposed omen of the direwolf and the stag. When I first read it I still didn't understand why, because Robert's sigil wasn't yet stated, unless if you looked at the appendices.

[oba]

Catelyn I.

Wow. A friend of mine to whom I introduced the books, still hates Catelyn. I have politely suggested that she re-read the books along with us.

Cat is aware, as Ned is not, of royal politics. This makes her, on first read, not as sympathetic as Ned. On subsequent reads, however . . .

[Tarthking]

On rereading this chapter, I am struck by how much Catelyn is a manifestation of the Mother. Even Ned primarily sees her that way. ‘“Catelyn, where are the children?†He would always ask her that.’ And this also seems to be Catelyn’s primary focus throughout the first three books – her concern for the children. Once that is taken away from her, she no longer has any reason to exist, at least not as a Mother-figure.

It’s therefore appropriate that her POV introduces us to the theme of religious differences. It’s interesting that Martin emphasizes that the southern gods have names, while the old gods were “nameless, facelessâ€. Facelessness seems to be a theme throughout the series, and had already been mentioned in connection with the Others in the prologue. I’m not entirely certain what Martin’s trying to say with it, but it’s interesting that it occurs this early in the series.

I’m also not sure what the significance is with the heart tree. The heart tree seems to combine the characteristics of the fire side and the ice side. It’s bark is bone white, like the Others, but its leaves are red, the color of fire (or blood). It has a face, but no real name, other than Heart Tree. Even that name seems to combine the elements, as heart gets associated with fire and life, and tree gets associated with the cold north.

[Nan Greenseer]

This chapter also demonstrate how imaginative Ned is. He tells Catelyn the Others are as dead as the Childfren - both gone 8000 years. Ned said that no living man had seen an Other in 8000 year. The Irony: Ned killed the man who had seen Others just days before.

Excellent point. And he thought that the man he killed was scared of plain old wildings. But why would he think that a man of the wall would be afraid of wildings? He tells Catelyn, "Something had put a fear in him so deep that my words could not reach him." I think that Ned is in a little bit of denial, it doesn't seem like Ned to believe that a man from the Night's Watch would be truly scared of wildings, and he doesn't really seem inclined to try to figure it out. That also seems out of character for Ned.

[Ealasaid]

Good point about Catelyn as the manifestation of the Mother in the Seven. She loves her children and Ned. I think Ned does see her as the mother of his children.

Ned may not be, nor have ever been, in love with Catelyn. Or she him. She does not tell us of her feelings for Brandon. But she is jealous of the woman who captured Neds' heart such that he would bering his bastard home. (No I'm not trying to start another R+L may or may not = J) And a word on bastard. That was the correct legal term for a children born out of wedlock for a least a thousand years in European and US law. It may still be the correct term in many states. Kind of like that C word. It was just a word. And then it, and bastard, became a slur.

Catelyn does make her decisons with her heart, but that is not what is necessarily best for her or her family. Mothers sometimes forget this in loving their family.

Another mention of the the Wall. And the reader learns that Ned has a brother on the Wall, who will be invited to visit will Robert is in court at Winterfell. So they must have a way of determining who is legally away from the Wall and who is a deserter.

[Wired_Irony]

Okay, I'm going to continue the question thing I did in the Prologue but this time I will ask more general questions. Almost as a template for all chapters.

1. What did you think of this chapter when you first read it? What do you think of it now?

2. Did you notice any foreshadowing, symbolism? Any good quotes?

3. In my opinion, a chapter must have some Plot Development or Character Development to be important. In that respect, was this chapter important? Did it have Plot Development, or Character Development or a little of both? What were they?

[Spring Bass]

I thought it was interesting how both Catelyn and Ned don't refer to Cersei by name, simply calling her "that Lannister woman," with Catelyn warning Ned about how Cersei's pride is said to grow every year.

What does the second part mean? Do you suppose that, at that point in the storytelling, Cersei is already picking up a reputation for severely punishing those who slight her?

[Tarthking]

Ned may not be, nor have ever been, in love with Catelyn. Or she him.

I thought this initially, too. Catelyn and Ned speak to each other with a stiffness in this chapter that doesn't feel like real love. They are the only two people in the room, and yet they are incredibly formal. It's awkward. Yet, Martin's descriptions include affectionate smiles at each other, and affectionate knowledge of each other's habits. There is a bond there that I would call love, one stemming from years of marriage. In the next chapter, Viserys tells Dany that she might eventually learn to love Drogo. This is what has happened between Catelyn and Eddard. They have learned to love each other. It's not as earth shattering as typical, passionate story book love, but it's more realistic in a society of arranged marriages.

[Barba]

Okay, I'm going to continue the question thing I did in the Prologue but this time I will ask more general questions. Almost as a template for all chapters.

1. What did you think of this chapter when you first read it? What do you think of it now?

I got the impression that Cat is strong woman, and that she respects her husband.

2. Did you notice any foreshadowing, symbolism? Any good quotes?

no

3. In my opinion, a chapter must have some Plot Development or Character Development to be important. In that respect, was this chapter important? Did it have Plot Development, or Character Development or a little of both? What were they?

Character development - not that ve seen

Plot development - Jon dies, robert comes

I think it is important to notice that this is the beginning of the series, so most of stuff here are just introduction. We learn that there are two types of gods in westeros:'old gods' and 7 gods' (Red god is not ye mentioned, and also it has no influence in westeros yet - at least not a big one). We also have some hints about history (war of the usurper, mad king, warding in the eyrie, her and her ister's wedding) her homeland and generally about castles and heart trees.

All in all - chapter of introduction with the world

[A wilding]

Ned may not be, nor have ever been, in love with Catelyn. Or she him.

I think it is clear that Catelyn loves Ned, though perhaps not immediately from this chapter. There are numerous pointers to it scattered about, most poignantly when her last thought is that Ned loved her hair. We also see that he is a big part of her life and she is completely comfortable with that.

It is less clear that Ned loves Catelyn, though there are a few hints later. IMO this is to keep us guessing about Jon's parentage. If we saw Ned doting on Catelyn, we would wonder the more how he reconciled that with refusing to tell her about Jon's mother and with keeping Jon at Winterfell.

[Nan Greenseer]

I think it is clear that Catelyn loves Ned, though perhaps not immediately from this chapter. There are numerous pointers to it scattered about, most poignantly when her last thought is that Ned loved her hair. We also see that he is a big part of her life and she is completely comfortable with that.

It is less clear that Ned loves Catelyn, though there are a few hints later. IMO this is to keep us guessing about Jon's parentage. If we saw Ned doting on Catelyn, we would wonder the more how he reconciled that with refusing to tell her about Jon's mother and with keeping Jon at Winterfell.

I agree, a wilding. While I don't think it's the type of love that they first expected in their youth, I do think they love each other in a much more enduring way. They seem to have a much closer relationships than many of the couples in the story (Robert and Cersei, Aerys and Rhaella, Stannis and Lady Selyse). At least they didn't have to start out in blood, like Edmure and Roslyn!

Tarthking, I think you're right in that this is a successful marriage for the time (or probably even today :-) I think the stiffness and formality in this scene is more related to them being in the godswood, which is a sacred place. Not really somewhere you'd want to play tonsil hockey. They are also discussing very serious topics, and I think Catelyn is being formal out of respect for the place, and what Ned is there thinking about.

[Ealasaid]

Sorry...

1. What did you think of this chapter when you first read it? What do you think of it now?

The first time I read this chapter, I thought it had a lot of information packed into it and had to read it several times before I moved on.

On this reading, I still think it has a lot of information about the religions, and Winterfell flora vs. Riverrun. Catelyn and Eddard seem to have a very fomal realtionship, not a lot of warmth, His first words to her are about the children. I think that is the most important link between these two people.

2. Did you notice any foreshadowing, symbolism? Any good quotes?

Foreshadowing - that Lysa is acting out of character according to Catelyn - she ran for the desolation of the Eyire rather than Riverrun.

Catelyn's inability to cherish the Weirwood and the Old Religion, demonstrate inflexibility on her part.

"Damn his royal hide!"

3. In my opinion, a chapter must have some Plot Development or Character Development to be important. In that respect, was this chapter important? Did it have Plot Development, or Character Development or a little of both? What were they?

This chapter does both. It moves the plot along giving the reader quick information via Rave Mial on Jon Arryn's death and Lysa's runner - something is wrong there. And the fact the King and his are on their was to Winterfell. It also gives us a lot of information on some of the religions.

As far as character development, the reader sees that Ned is more ready to smile with his children than his wife. Catelyn, in our first meeting, is shown to be ready to jump to a negative conclusion and not change it, and she's a natural-born fretter.

[HorseFaceless]

so after reading Bran's chapter I was confused as to why people questioned Ned for not examining Gared's desertion more closely, but apparently I had forgoten about his conversation with Cat in her POV. I'm bothered by the contradiction that Ned assumes wildlings drove Gared "half-mad" yet his next comment says the wildlings are "...nothing for us to fear." This doesn't seem to be his character. Can anyone explain this?

It's interesting to see that Cat doesn't seem to be biased either way to the Lanisters even though "there was small love between him and the queen's family". Ned is the one who calls Cersei "the lannister woman" and Cat only repeats the phrase when warning ned to "guard his tongue" prior to this she called her "Cersei" and then "the Queen". This gives me the feel that Cat is more diplomatic than Ned. It also contrasts to ned's childlike excitement to see his friend.

I tended to sympathize with Lysa, but it also struck me as odd, even the first time reading AGOT that Cat stated "I know my sister" after describing that she thought she would go to Riverrun instead of the Eyrie. A subtle forshadowing that adds to the mystery of Jon's death and seems to grow as we later find out about their son and the fostering issue.

Overall, I think the chapter laid the foundation for a main plotline in AGOT, the mystery of Jon Arryn's death, and gave some history of the world. I liked the contrast of the two religions. The old gods feel more real... I guess because we are in the weirwood. Also, you get the feeling that the heart tree is alive, its "read eyes watching, listening, thinking..."

After this chapter the reader feels like they are getting to know the setting/ world... and then GRRM throws in Daenerys.

[Nan Greenseer]

After this chapter the reader feels like they are getting to know the setting/ world... and then GRRM throws in Daenerys.

I remember thinking it was abrupt (the narration switch to Dany) when I first read AGOT. Dany's chapters, however, present an "outsider" view of Westeros, and gives us a lot of info that we wouldn't really hear from someone inside the seven kingdoms.